Is there a way to make wiz/casters more fun at low levels?

[randomhero00]

I don't know about you, but until, I don't know until 6 or so I just don't find casters very fun. Regardless of how powerful they may be. Even though I don't always play blasty wizards (usually don't) I prefer blasty at low levels. Am I the only one like this?

Basically I'm thinking something like reserve feats and +blasty feats (because well that's just usually more fun.)

One time feats that'd let them take a single spell from a short list of blasty spells (and only one) and then some sort of reserve magic feat: specific spell so they can blast more often.

I know wizards and such can be effective 1-20 but they are such a bore to me at level 1-2 that I almost don't want to show up.

Maybe I'm just weird....

[WarKitty]

Reserve feats are always good, I'm tempted to give out a low-level one for free to all casters, just so they have something to do.

Pathfinder's unlimited cantrips helped with this a lot, actually. There's actually *something* to do at low levels, and your 1d3 or whatever spell is actually useful still.

[randomhero00]

Reserve feats are always good, I'm tempted to give out a low-level one for free to all casters, just so they have something to do.

Pathfinder's unlimited cantrips helped with this a lot, actually. There's actually *something* to do at low levels, and your 1d3 or whatever spell is actually useful still.

1st paragraph, yeah that's what I mean.

2nd not really, 1d3 is so little damage. And its at the point were you might still miss too. The average damage has got to be like 1.1 or something. I was thinking of something a little more potent, the fighters are doing something like 1d12+6 at that level. Not as much as that, but something closer. Like at least 1d6 +CL.

[valadil]

I had a blast with my last sorcerer at low levels. I gave him color spray and grease. He had the metamagic variant from PHB2. As soon as he had second level spells I picked up sculpt spell. For just one level increase, it makes grease into 4 greases. After that the character just got more magic, more metamagic, and more options.

[true_shinken]

Play a Warlock.

[Dralnu]

Even at low levels you've got more options than most martial characters outside of ToB. You've got a handful of spells, some of which can single-handedly end 90% of standard encounters thrown at you. When those run out, you plink away at stuff with your light crossbow. The non-ToB martial characters are plinking away too, they just do a little more damage with weapons is all.

Have you ever tried a swordsage? It sounds weird but it does have the feel of a "blaster caster" even at the lowest levels, if that's what you like. Tons of maneuvers and very fun!

EDIT: Seconding the warlock suggestion too. Not as many options, but it's a blasty caster that doesn't run out of juice.

[J.Gellert]

Start your campaign on level 4. 1st level is almost as much of a joke as epic...

A free reserve feat is also nice, of course.

Otherwise, you can hand out a bunch of low-level spell scrolls or even a wand. I've seen DMs who hand out a limitless wand/rod/whatever of a low-level damaging spell to casters almost as soon as the game begins, just so they don't have to resort to becoming crossbowmen.

[Callista]

Yeah, at low levels your options are somewhat limited; but it's not the end of the world--you're still a useful member of the party.

Remember to use your skills. You likely have Knowledge skills and Spellcraft; your high INT lets you know lots of stuff. Roll those checks. You are the party member who can identify the enemy and knows their weaknesses. You can identify which spells the enemy casters just threw at you, or tried to throw; that's always useful information, if only because it gives you an approximation of their power level.

You probably have a useful DEX modifier. At very low levels, you will run out of spells. Use a crossbow. 1d8 is not actually that bad, and you might be able to get poison for the bolts.

Don't just blast away at stuff if you're a wizard; leave that to the warlock or maybe the sorcerer. You're better off making it easier for your friends to hit stuff; your damage output will be near zero, but theirs will increase by more than would be accounted for if you were just chucking magic missiles. (But that doesn't mean magic missiles are useless. Force damage that always hits? Useful.) You could try to hit stuff with Sleep or Color Spray, but of course if they shake off those spells, they're pretty much useless; so you might prefer something more reliable like Grease. This is where your knowledge skills come in; they give you an idea of whether or not something will fall to your spells. Debuffing enemies, strengthening your friends, giving the Rogue sneak attacks, and dealing with enemy special abilities is probably your best role.

[GoatBoy]

Pathfinder also gives Sorcerers and Wizards abilities that are based on their specialization/bloodline that are usable 3 + (main caster stat) per day. 1d6+1/4 caster levels as a ranged touch attack isn't amazing, but it's better than a light crossbow.

[Flickerdart]

Long duration spells are your friends, because you have to cast fewer of them, and spells with multiple options make up for your low number of slots. Stuff like Alter Self is absurdly versatile, and has a nice 10 minutes per level duration.

[WarKitty]

1st paragraph, yeah that's what I mean.

2nd not really, 1d3 is so little damage. And its at the point were you might still miss too. The average damage has got to be like 1.1 or something. I was thinking of something a little more potent, the fighters are doing something like 1d12+6 at that level. Not as much as that, but something closer. Like at least 1d6 +CL.

I think it was 1d3 touch or something though. I like giving the casters lower-damage touch spells. It provides the whole caster feel without really changing power dynamics - I mean, you *could* just shoot your crossbow, but a lot of people (myself included) play casters so we don't have to sit there shooting a crossbow.

For the people saying "you still have good spells": only if your DM lets you rest. If you have 4-6 encounters in a day, those first level spells aren't going to last long.

[gbprime]

At level 1 a human wizard can grab Precocious Apprentice (scorching Ray) and Blast of Flame reserve feat. Unlimited 2d6 boom.

Then at 6th level or so they can re-train those feats into the prerequisites they need for their career path.

[WarKitty]

At level 1 a human wizard can grab Precocious Apprentice (scorching Ray) and Blast of Flame reserve feat. Unlimited 2d6 boom.

Then at 6th level or so they can re-train those feats into the prerequisites they need for their career path.

That requires a lot of ifs.

[Kylarra]

I'd just give them a reserve blaster feat of choice. Done.

[true_shinken]

I thought most reserve feats actually required you to be around 5th level.

[Runestar]

I thought most reserve feats actually required you to be around 5th level.

A wizard can take some of the reserve feats like fiery burst as early as 3rd lv (or 1st, if a very contentious interpretation of precocious apprentice is allowed), but sorcs typically have to wait until 6th lv, since they get 2nd lv spells only at 4th lv, but their next feat is at 6th lv. :smallmad:

At first lv, you are better off asking your party to pool funds together so you can scribe some scrolls to mitigate your pitiful allotment of spells. Being a focused specialist helps somewhat, since you can start out with 4 spells, on par with a sorc, while playing a deep imaskari lets you recall a 1st lv spell 1/day.

Because I play in the forgotten realms setting, my wizard started with 6 bonus scrolls of 1st lv spells. That really helped as our first adventure was a dungeon crawl of sorts. :smallbiggrin:

[gbprime]

A wizard can take some of the reserve feats like fiery burst as early as 3rd lv (or 1st, if a very contentious interpretation of precocious apprentice is allowed), but sorcs typically have to wait until 6th lv, since they get 2nd lv spells only at 4th lv, but their next feat is at 6th lv. :smallmad:

Contentious interpretation? How? Precocious Apprentice gives your wizard or sorcerer one 2nd level spell slot and one 2nd level spell known. If it's a fire spell, you can use it to power Blast of Flame. None of that is twisting an interpretation, and the fact that there might be a miscast chance involved is totally unlrelated to the reserve feat.

The only consideration is whether your DM is using the retraining rules from PHB2. If (s)he isn't, this feat combo is a dead end that you don't need, and I'd recommend going with the scrolls approach instead.

[true_shinken]

Contentious interpretation? How? Precocious Apprentice gives your wizard or sorcerer one 2nd level spell slot and one 2nd level spell known. If it's a fire spell, you can use it to power Blast of Flame. None of that is twisting an interpretation, and the fact that there might be a miscast chance involved is totally unlrelated to the reserve feat.

The only consideration is whether your DM is using the retraining rules from PHB2. If (s)he isn't, this feat combo is a dead end that you don't need, and I'd recommend going with the scrolls approach instead.

It's not that simple, dude. I don't remember if it was on errata on in the FAQ, but they mention Precocious Apprentice does not give you a slot or something. RAI is that it does not fills requirements for anything. RAW, though - you are correct.

[gbprime]

It's not that simple, dude. I don't remember if it was on errata on in the FAQ, but they mention Precocious Apprentice does not give you a slot or something. RAI is that it does not fills requirements for anything. RAW, though - you are correct.

Interesting. Any sage out there have a link to that clarification? I'd probably ignore it with my gaming group because we're used to RAW, but it'd make a big difference in Iron Chef builds or other optimizing for people outside my local group.

[Runestar]

I have never bought the bunk which claims that you can use precocious apprentice to qualify for mystic theurge early.

I recall there being a sage article which recommends that this not be allowed (can't remember the reason, and the article seems to have been purged). :smallannoyed:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

No FAQ interpretation could possibly deny the fact that Precocious Apprentice provides you a spell slot. It's in the text, and it's one of the main parts of the feat. The only hitch in the trick is the prerequisite on Fiery Burst: "Able to cast 2nd-level spells." PA only gives you one second level spell to play with at first level. Personally, though, I don't see the need to play the silly semantics game just to get rid of a trick less powerful than simply going DFA + Entangling Exhalation.

[gbprime]

The only hitch in the trick is the prerequisite on Fiery Burst: "Able to cast 2nd-level spells." PA only gives you one second level spell to play with at first level.

Yeah, I've never seen that called into question. Otherwise, Battle Sorcerer and a significant number of alt-caster PrC's wouldn't be able to qualify for anything with "spell_s_ known" for an extra level or two.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I've never seen that called into question. Otherwise, Battle Sorcerer and a significant number of alt-caster PrC's wouldn't be able to qualify for anything with "spell_s_ known" for an extra level or two.

*shrug* Focused Specialists get multiple higher level slots; something you can probably work with.


But yeah, far as I'm concerned, Wizards do fun stuff with Cantrips. Make them unlimited and that should solve the "doing interesting stuff"-problems. Blasting is really problematic for the first few levels since you simply don't have spells that really deal damage nor the slots to support it. You can start doing some around level 3-4 or so but the first levels, not really.

[Incanur]

You can always screw around with caltrops cantrip and the feat Cloudy Conjuration. At level 1 focused specialist gives you 5 cantrips and 4 1st-level spells as long as you have at least 12 Int. That's not too bad.

[Acanous]

Caltrops cantrip+Cloudy Conjuration is amazing. Combine with Flare for roflcopter.
Blind, sick people and caltrops. You'll propably have to go /Evil just for beating on those helpless opponents.

[randomhero00]

I like the suggestions of free feats (that are perhaps revoked once you hit later levels).

But all in all, even pathfinder, it just sucks, personally, for me to play a caster. I just don't feel all that magical at all. Whereas even a fighter can feel tough or powerful as heck as he one shots enemies with power attack. Its not so much the "options" its the feeling of power. Which at least for me, isn't conveyed well through things like grease and such even if the are the bees knees.

[Galsiah]

On the whole "must be able to cast 2nd level spells" thing, what that qualifier means is you must have the ability to cast from 2nd level slots. It doesn't matter if you only can cast one spell at that level, as long as you have a slot you qualify. It's mostly used to differentiate between SLAs that imitate a spell of a specific level and actual spells of that level.

[Pyrite]

I like the suggestions of free feats (that are perhaps revoked once you hit later levels).

But all in all, even pathfinder, it just sucks, personally, for me to play a caster. I just don't feel all that magical at all. Whereas even a fighter can feel tough or powerful as heck as he one shots enemies with power attack. Its not so much the "options" its the feeling of power. Which at least for me, isn't conveyed well through things like grease and such even if the are the bees knees.

In my experience, having seven cold rays per day that cut through armor on top of my selection of spells (I was playing an elemental bloodline sorceress) did a lot toward making me feel as powerful as you should hope to feel at first level, and once I got second level spells to play with they were still there as a wonderful fallback point.

[Incanur]

I don't know that any non-Pun-Pun 3.x characters feel powerful to me before third or fourth level at the earliest. At this point in the game simple animals such as bears and big cats pose a deadly threat. Even a well-built warblade (an early game star!) might die to a pouncing leopard or a handful of hyenas. At the very beginning the martial classes perform only marginally better than a large dog. You're not Boromir, that's for sure. The stuff of legends comes later on.