Question:Warblade: swap maneuvers for psychic warrior power progression?

[SylvanPrincess]

ok, so my dm is resistant to the idea of me using warblade cuz of maneuvers, but is open to the idea of swapping out the maneuvers for the psychic warrior's power progression. what do the masterminds here think of that? would it be more powerful or less powerful than normal? i think its a neat idea

[edit] also, whats a good replacement ability for the warblades level 20 dual stance ability?

[Tael]

wat. Compare the Warblade to the Psywar. A Psywar has 3/4 and no real class features. A Warblade has actual class features, better HD and skills, and full BAB. You tell me if that's a good trade.

[Seerow]

Yeah, if the DM thinks that this tradeoff will make you weaker than a normal warblade, they're stupid and vastly overestimate the power of ToB maneuvers.

That said, if you always wanted to play a psiwar with a good BAB, this is your golden opportunity. It could also create some interesting class combinations that wouldn't be possible otherwise (going into ToB prestige classes while increasing your psionics instead? Sounds pretty awesome. Imagine Jade Phoenix Mage as a Psiwar/Wizard)

[HunterOfJello]

If the manifesting is based on intelligence, then go for it.


Full BAB + Warblade class features = what psychic warriors should probably have anyway.

[Tael]

If the manifesting is based on intelligence, then go for it.


Full BAB + Warblade class features = what psychic warriors should probably have anyway.

You're kidding me right? Psywars are already pretty much the same power level as wablades. Manifesting is really good.

[Lans]

To be honest the warblades remaining class features kind of suck when the character requires another stat. Essentially +1 one some stuff, vs 3 bonus feats, heavy armor and ranged weapons. The body makes up for and then some.

[Hawk7915]

Yeah, this change will make you significantly stronger than a straight Warblade or a straight Psychic Warrior, even if your manifesting is Wisdom based (thus making you slightly MAD; although you can in theory dump int and dex since they aren't vital). With the exception of a few maneuvers and stances (Hearing the Air, Sudden Leap, Iron Heart Surge), White Raven Tactics), most maneuvers that a Warblade has access too are just variations on typical "warrior" stuff (disarming, bull rushing) and extra damage (either buffs or just +Xd6 weapon damage).

Psychic Warriors get some of that "just damage"/buffs sort of stuff (basically any maneuver you wanted except Tactics, a Psychic Warrior can probably emulate with the right power), but also get stuff like teleportation, mind blank, and other awesome powers.

[SylvanPrincess]

it would be based on int, not wisdom.also, i think there would be no initiator level, so it wouldnt be crazy. this is the build im looking at making. the samurai is in there for ancestral daisho. i dropped 3 levels of iajutsu master for 3 3rd level psywar powers. i havent actually gone thru and checked the feat math for pre reqs yet, but this is more or less it.

classes: samurai 1/swashbuckler 7/warblade 9/blade dancer 1/iajutsu master 2
numbers: 18 18 16 14 11 9
race: ?

samurai 1
swashbuckler 1
swashbuckler 2
swashbuckler 3
warblade 1
warblade 2
warblade 3
iajutsu master 1
iajutsu master 2
blade dancer 1
warblade 4
warblade 5
warblade 6
warblade 7
swashbuckler 4
swashbuckler 5
swashbuckler 6
swashbuckler 7
warblade 8
warblade 9

this gives it a 20/15/10/5 bab, crazy! plus 3rd level powers, and INT to damage and AC. also cha to initiative isnt bad, tho with a 9 i need a dump stat(probly wisdom).

DM ruled the non-LA aasimar gets a +2 to wis or cha, -2 to con, i was thinking id be the cha one. cool for storyline purposes too, though id almost certainly have to be lawful good.


and a sweet pic of what i could look likehttp://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k155/dragonlordmax/FemaleSamurai.jpg

[Tael]

Yeah, it's a ridiculously good trade, but you're not optimizing very much, so it should be fine.

[Psyren]

wat. Compare the Warblade to the Psywar. A Psywar has 3/4 and no real class features. A Warblade has actual class features, better HD and skills, and full BAB. You tell me if that's a good trade.

It's a damn good trade. Warblade chassis + Psywar powers = sheer awesome.

@ OP: Go for it.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well considering you're using Samurai I'd say you need all the help you can get. :smallwink:

As a straight Warblade it'd be entirely too much, though.

[Ernir]

+1 to Int-based PsiWar Manifesting being a damn good trade. (I wouldn't call it ridiculous, but yeah.)
The Warblade needs a new level 20 ability, then, though. =/
The ability to hold two psychic focuses at once?


it would be based on int, not wisdom.also, i think there would be no initiator level, so it wouldnt be crazy. this is the build im looking at making. the samurai is in there for ancestral daisho. i dropped 3 levels of iajutsu master for 3 3rd level psywar powers. i havent actually gone thru and checked the feat math for pre reqs yet, but this is more or less it.

classes: samurai 1/swashbuckler 7/warblade 9/blade dancer 1/iajutsu master 2
numbers: 18 18 16 14 11 9
race: ?

samurai 1
swashbuckler 1
swashbuckler 2
swashbuckler 3
warblade 1
warblade 2
warblade 3
iajutsu master 1
iajutsu master 2
blade dancer 1
warblade 4
warblade 5
warblade 6
warblade 7
swashbuckler 4
swashbuckler 5
swashbuckler 6
swashbuckler 7
warblade 8
warblade 9

this gives it a 20/15/10/5 bab, crazy! plus 3rd level powers, and INT to damage and AC. also cha to initiative isnt bad, tho with a 9 i need a dump stat(probly wisdom).

DM ruled the non-LA aasimar gets a +2 to wis or cha, -2 to con, i was thinking id be the cha one. cool for storyline purposes too, though id almost certainly have to be lawful good.


and a sweet pic of what i could look likehttp://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k155/dragonlordmax/FemaleSamurai.jpg

If you want build advice... I'd just go straight Psychic Warblade. Multiclassing out of spellcasting/manifesting classes usually isn't worth it, it just leaves your spells/powers too far behind the curve.
And the Warblade's flavor should be malleable enough to let you play the same concept as the multiclass version without anyone complaining.

You can get an Ancestral Daisho-like ability with a Feat - Ancestral Relic, from the Book of Exalted Deeds.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, in this case, go Psychic Warblade 20. Really! Just get Ancestral Relic.

[Tael]

Yea, in this case, go Psychic Warblade 20. Really! Just get Ancestral Relic.

Indeed, this combo is way too powerful to multi-class out of.

[Zaakar]

PrC(s) might help, though.

[Mongoose87]

PrC(s) might help, though.

The only full BaB, full manifesting ones are Slayer and War Mind. Slayer is worse than Warblade levels, and Warmind starts its own progression.

[Closet_Skeleton]

classes: samurai 1/swashbuckler 7/warblade 9/blade dancer 1/iajutsu master 2


If you're taking Iajutsu master I suppose that's Oriental Adventures Samurai?

[Hanuman]

Ahahaha, DO IT.

I mean, it stretches your points out a little thinner, but you are going to essentially be rewarded with fat class features every couple levels for choosing more skillpoints over more AC.

Only problem is that you can't really play up Dex with that setup as you'd then need to focus on 5 stats, and btw, you better believe you will be dumping Cha.



If you're taking Iajutsu master I suppose that's Oriental Adventures Samurai?
Have you SEEN CW samurai? Has anyone actually played one by mistake?

[Psyren]

Seconding Psychic Warblade 20. An int-based Psywar with full BAB and d12 is godly. Even if your DM demands Wis-based manifesting to make you MAD, you'll still be a whirling ginsu of destruction.

[LordBlades]

The only full BaB, full manifesting ones are Slayer and War Mind. Slayer is worse than Warblade levels, and Warmind starts its own progression.

Slayer loses 1 ML IIRC

[Mongoose87]

Slayer loses 1 ML IIRC

Only further making my point.

[Greenish]

Have you SEEN CW samurai? Has anyone actually played one by mistake?OA samurai is only marginally better, if that. It's only class features are getting two masterwork weapons on first level, and then some fighter feats from a very restricted list. The chassis is pretty good, though.

[Psyren]

Only further making my point.

Agreed, no PrCs are needed.

I suppose you could go Psychic Weapon Master with Practiced Manifester for more of a martial feel (and an extra focus.)

[SylvanPrincess]

yeah, its funny, cuz he thinks my build with maneuvers would be too powerful...i think with the psywar powers it could be crazy!

also went thru the feat progression a bit, wont be able to take blade dancer til level 15 lol. still itll give it a sweet boost at that level even still. i could drop the extra 4 levels of swash (in there to get acrobatic charge) and add another 4 of warblade. if i wanted 6th level powers then the build could look like this:

swashbuckler 3/warblade 16/iajutsu master 1

but i honestly only like 1 or 2 4th level powers, and im not sure about any 5th or 6th level powers. are there more psy warrior powers in complete psionic?

[edit] ok, so i looked at complete psionic and i like a few more of the powers in higher levels, but im still not sure if theyre warranted?

[Gavinfoxx]

yeah, its funny, cuz he thinks my build with maneuvers would be too powerful...i think with the psywar powers it could be crazy!

also went thru the feat progression a bit, wont be able to take blade dancer til level 15 lol. still itll give it a sweet boost at that level even still. i could drop the extra 4 levels of swash (in there to get acrobatic charge) and add another 4 of warblade. if i wanted 6th level powers then the build could look like this:

swashbuckler 3/warblade 16/iajutsu naster 1/blade dancer 1

but i honestly only like 1 or 2 4th level powers, and im not sure about any 5th or 6th level powers. are there more psy warrior powers in complete psionic?

[edit] ok, so i looked at complete psionic and i like a few more of the powers in higher levels, but im still not sure if theyre warranted?

Uh thats a level 21 build ya got there...

[Hanuman]

Uh thats a level 21 build ya got there...
If we are going to talk about being level 20 when making level 5 or whatever characters, why not 21?

[SylvanPrincess]

LOL why so it is!

still, i kinda wanna stick to my original build, so it isnt overpowered, and is more gishy

[Gavinfoxx]

LOL why so it is!

Anyway. I'd say go for the maximum amount of power points, and getting 6th level powers asap. Dispelling Buffer, Form of Doom, Personal Mind Blank, Blackstone Hammer, Inconstant Location, Stygian Touch, Mind Over Energy -- these will all be REALLY useful. Really, just go Psychic Warblade 20, like we have been saying! Power points are precious... Also, you want to get level 6 powers at hit dice / ecl 16, ie, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!

[Kylarra]

Even if you don't like the higher level powers, you've still got augmentable lower level power. I don't think the 3 levels of Swashbuckler are honestly doing anything for you compared to the power progression.

[SylvanPrincess]

int to damage? i really want that..... :smalleek:

psychic warblade 20. hmm....i could probably sell it to my dm. but the revised build i put up would still give me that 6th level power, plus int to dam. if i dropped iajutsu master and went swash 3/psy warblade 17 id get 2 6th level powers, and at least light armor. but i like the mobility of a no armored character, and int to ac and katana weapon finesse is pretty good-specially when i can add int to my katana damage.

[Gavinfoxx]

int to damage? i really want that..... :smalleek:

It's not worth it. Really, it's not, compared to the massive amount of godkilling power you will have with your ability to alter reality around you... Just buff your strength and use your superpowers to do more damage, it's easy! Psychic Warblade 20! You know you want toooo!

Also I edited my earlier post, look at that.

[Hanuman]

Psh, just being able to cast expansion would be worth taking a dip into psy war, even with the limited BAB.

But being able to cast a 2 size expansion with no dip + other goodies? Oh man.

[Psyren]

but i honestly only like 1 or 2 4th level powers, and im not sure about any 5th or 6th level powers. are there more psy warrior powers in complete psionic?

[edit] ok, so i looked at complete psionic and i like a few more of the powers in higher levels, but im still not sure if theyre warranted?

The high level powers are nice reasons not to lose Psywar levels, but not as important. What are important are two things:

1) the extra PP (Practiced Manifester won't give you any, and Psywars are already short on juice)

2) The ability to Expanded Knowledge higher. (EK only lets you learn powers at least one level below your maximum.) This means for instance that you will need 5th-level power access to learn Metamorphosis, Psychic Reformation or Schism because they are 4th-level powers.

That is not to say there aren't some good high-level powers however. Personal Mind Blank and Form of Doom are both excellent additions to your repertoire, and CPsi has the extremely awesome Inconstant Location - all are 6th level.

[Emmerask]

Do you also get autohypnosis as a class skill?

The main upside I see is more skillpoints and more/better class skills though without autohypnosis (which is the single most awesome skill there is) it takes a slight hit.
Full bab is always nice to have and with powers there will be almost nothing you can´t full powerattack for massive damage.

The warblades class features are okay but far from super awesome, but warblades actually have class features so thats a plus ^^

The main problem I see (aside from not having autohypnosis - ask your dm for it :smallbiggrin:)is that at early levels you will be really feat starved and a good psywar ( or psyblade) needs a ton of feats to really shine and that you now need more int for the class features to actually make an impact so you become a bit more mad with int, str, wis, con and a bit of dex.

Overall its a good trade, I wouldn´t call it awesome but a nice slight but noticeable powerboost.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, remind the DM you'll need knowledge: psionics, and autohypnosis, and then go psychic warblade 20! reaallyyy!!

[Dusk Eclipse]

The only full BaB, full manifesting ones are Slayer and War Mind. Slayer is worse than Warblade levels, and Warmind starts its own progression.

There is also one on Lord of Madness, pretty similar to slayer but more defensive oriented. Sanctified Mind


The high level powers are nice reasons not to lose Psywar levels, but not as important. What are important are two things:

1) the extra PP (Practiced Manifester won't give you any, and Psywars are already short on juice)

2) The ability to Expanded Knowledge higher. (EK only lets you learn powers at least one level below your maximum.) This means for instance that you will need 5th-level power access to learn Metamorphosis, Psychic Reformation or Schism because they are 4th-level powers.

That is not to say there aren't some good high-level powers however. Personal Mind Blank and Form of Doom are both excellent additions to your repertoire, and CPsi has the extremely awesome Inconstant Location - all are 6th level.

Here is the formula for bonus PP based on high manifesting modifier.



How To Determine Bonus Power Points

Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier × your manifester level ×½. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points shows these calculations for class levels 1st through 20th and key ability scores from 10 to 41.


Not a lot mind you but practiced manifest helps a bit, other than that I agree with your points

[SylvanPrincess]

so, whats a good replacement ability for the warblades level 20 dual stance ability?

[Greenish]

so, whats a good replacement ability for the warblades level 20 dual stance ability?Permanent Schism. :smalleek:

[Psyren]

Yea, remind the DM you'll need knowledge: psionics, and autohypnosis, and then go psychic warblade 20! reaallyyy!!

OP: Ask if you can trade Martial Lore for Autohypnosis. With no maneuvers in your game, it's pointless anyway.


There is also one on Lord of Madness, pretty similar to slayer but more defensive oriented. Sanctified Mind

The main drawback to Sanctified Mind - you need MWP to get in, unlike Slayer which gives you MWP. :smallfrown:


Not a lot mind you but practiced manifest helps a bit, other than that I agree with your points

I was referring to base PP from class actually, but you're right that ML does benefit bonus PP from key ability score, I should have specified.


so, whats a good replacement ability for the warblades level 20 dual stance ability?

The dual psionic focus thing sounds perfect to me. Store it in your weapon, just like the Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) ability. Then you can have up to three foci if you get a psicrystal.

If only you could learn Diamond Mind maneuvers... that "take 15" would be godly :smalltongue:

[SylvanPrincess]

so i could have 2 powers "readied" to cast?

[Psyren]

so i could have 2 powers "readied" to cast?

Actually,Psionic Focus is used to power feats, not powers. Things like Aligned Attack, Deep Impact, Focused Sunder, Psionic Charge etc. The more foci you have, the more often you can use these moves without having to spend move actions later.

CPsi has more nice ones: Focused Perception (gain blindsense 60ft. for a round), Instinctive Consummator (Auto-confirm all criticals - duration unspecified, ask DM), and various metapsionics across both books like Linked Power and Quicken Power.

[Greenish]

so i could have 2 powers "readied" to cast?No, you'd have two psionic focuses to expend.

[absolmorph]

Have you SEEN CW samurai? Has anyone actually played one by mistake?
Didn't Shneeky make one that locked down everything within 30 feet?
That said, this sounds like a really cool idea.
DO IT.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was referring to base PP from class actually, but you're right that ML does benefit bonus PP from key ability score, I should have specified.


Yeah, but I have seen people claim that practiced manifest doesn't do anything for PP, so that is my usual knee jerk reaction when someone says that.

And yeah the take 15 on Concentration checks would be awesome.... must resist to build a gestalt warblade/swordsage // psy warrior......

[SylvanPrincess]

Didn't Shneeky make one that locked down everything within 30 feet?
That said, this sounds like a really cool idea.
DO IT.

yeah, im going to do it. the only thing i may look at is prcs, there may be one i can use with this, that looks different under this new psionic light :smallbiggrin:

[SylvanPrincess]

any prc ideas for this?

[Eldan]

Don't take any PrCs. There's most likely no PrC out there's that's better than this base class. Full base attack and full manifesting are already extremely rare, and the Warblade's class features are extremely sweet.