[3.5] Understanding the Zen of Power Attack

[Freylorn]

So my Ravenloft game kicks off tomorrow, and I'm hoping it'll be a blast. My character concept is all smoothed out, melee-wise, but I'm still struggling with one thing.

When does one Power Attack? And for how much?

Shock Trooper is included in the build, so Power Attack is a no-brainer there. But what about for standard melee? I don't have monsters' AC committed to memory, so I can't make an informed decision based on that. I know there's not going to be some hard-and-fast rule about how much to PA for, or when to use it, but a rule of thumb or two would be handy.

For this example, the character is a 6th level warblade. So the basic to-hit is going to be 5 (from strength) + 6 (BAB) + 1 (magic weapon) for a total of 12 to start with.

Let's assume I find myself in a combat wherein charging is not possible at the moment, and I have to stick it out in melee. Let's further assume I am going to use a strike in this circumstance, so it's a single melee attack. Would it be a good idea to PA? If so, for about how much?

Right now, my train of thought is to (more or less) take any bonus to-hit I have, and use that as my PA number. Did I get hit with a Bless? I'll PA for 1. Am I flanking? I'll PA for another 2. Basically, I'll keep myself at my base +12 to hit, and translate any further circumstantial modifiers into PA.

Good call? Or am I just vastly over-thinking this?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Half the fun of D&D is vastly over-thinking things, if you ask me.

Trial and error is your friend. Your conservative style works at the beginning, but once you hit on a natural 5 you can probably power attack for more. Note that with strikes that add bonus dice in damage you're usually better off with less PA.

[Sucrose]

I'd say that you should avoid blanket rules. If your opponent seems beefy and lightly armored, then power attack for more (even then, I don't like dipping further into my normal attack bonus than -2 or so.) If your opponent seems like a tougher nut to crack, then you might be better off without any power attack whatsoever.

If you can full attack (which you generally can if you aren't Shock Trooping), then often the damage that you can deal with your iterative attack stands a good chance of overtaking the damage you could do by power attacking, but if they're dirt-easy to hit, then power attacking for more is sensible. Of course, if you get massively outclassed, to the point that you need a 20 to hit, may as well swing for the fences as well.

[Ryuuk]

That's a good call actually. If you find you're hitting a particular foes HP really easily (rolled a 4 and still hit), then you can probably afford a bigger penalty. Also, if you're a Warblade then you can afford to Power Attack for full or near full any time you use Emerald Razor (attack becomes a touch attack) against a heavily armored opponent.

[Freylorn]

My main temptation is really the Nightmare Blade line.

I'm torn between wanting to eek as much out of that 2x or 4x damage as possible, and wanting to actually land the hit in question.

[Tvtyrant]

Oozes put everything into it, and a little less by type :P

[Thrawn183]

Depends on the strike you use. The more damage you deal without power attacking, the less you gain in comparison to what you lose from missing. So a mountain hammer strike that adds multiple d6 damage, you shouldn't power attack much, if at all.

There are some decent trends you can follow for enemy types though. Oozes get PA'd into the dirt. Humanoids wearing armor usually don't. Larger creatures usually don't have great armor (like animals), using the diamond mind strike that lets you make an attack as a touch attack makes them power attack fodder.

An important question is whether or not you have a caster that can hit you with a Haste spell. Generally 3 attacks at level 6 are better than a strike unless the strike happens to be exactly suited to the encounter.

[HunterOfJello]

I would try things out and see how they end up working.


Start with a +8 attack with +8 damage power attack for normal attacks. Alternate with a +4 attack Emerald Razor with +16 damage. (ALWAYS use power attack on large enemies. They usually have low touch AC.)

~

Watch enemy ACs to see when you hit and when you don't. Some people discourage this sort of thing, but I think it's valid for a melee fighter to be able to gauge how good an enemy is at defending itself after fighting for a few rounds.

For high AC monsters, keep up the regular damage. For strong enemies that have low AC, put everything into a Power Attack and see what happens.

[Hanuman]

PA is about putting your body into the swing, whenever you feel your character would do this, do it.

[Freylorn]

Generally 3 attacks at level 6 are better than a strike unless the strike happens to be exactly suited to the encounter.

That's a very good point, and the main reason I'm not overloading on strikes. I was planning to generally pack one or two, just in case I find myself in a situation where I a) have to move to reach a target, but b) cannot charge.

Actually, my standard 4-move set I was planning on prepping for general use at level 6 was Moment of Perfect Mind, Wall of Blades (to defend myself after a Shock Trooper charge,) Iron Heart Surge, and Emerald Razor. So yeah. One strike out of the lot :smallsmile:

[Runestar]

An important question is whether or not you have a caster that can hit you with a Haste spell. Generally 3 attacks at level 6 are better than a strike unless the strike happens to be exactly suited to the encounter.

Only when you get to make a full attack, or think you can withstand a full attack.

Strikes, being standard actions, allow you to move before or after attacking (which can be important if you don't want to risk being full-attacked the next round by say, a large+ dragon). It is not all about pure damage. :smallsmile:

[Kelb_Panthera]

MM pg 298 suggests that when making a monster you should arrange its ac to around CR +13. It's not entirely unreasonable to assume that many monsters were designed such that their AC is similar to this. I haven't crunched the numbers to confirm or disprove this notion. Naturally, a larger more brutish enemy will likely have a somewhat lower ac than this, while a smaller more agile enemy will probably have a higher ac.

Using your example of a 6th lvl warblade with a +12 to-hit, you'd have a 70% chance to hit with your primary attack, on average. Each -1 you sink into power attack decreases this by 5%. Your iterative would have a 45% chance. With no power attack a you will have a 83.5% chance to hit with at least one attack. At full power attack (-6 to-hit) you have a 49% chance to hit with at least one attack. Find an acceptable amount of risk and adjust your power attack accordingly. Mind you, these are average values based on an assumption. YMMV

[Koury]

MM pg 298 suggests that when making a monster you should arrange its ac to around CR +13.

Thats not too far off, up to around CR 16-ish. At least, as far as SRD monsters go.

Check it out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172050).

[Eldariel]

Generally, big monster with natural armor have lowish AC. Humanoids and spellcasters can have rather high AC so that's something to be afraid of. Fast, nimble things also tend to have rather high AC. But things like Giants, Animals and so on can be Power Attacked quite safely.

Generally I PA from 2 to 5. Much depends on the level and all that, but that seems right. Much also depends on your To Hit bonuses; if you're a Tripper with immense Str and e.g. Rage, you're looking at a very high To Hit and thus can easily convert the "bonuses" into damage with Power Attack. Stuff like Flanking and Charging is good for that too.

[Acanous]

it's good to be conservative with power attack until you get into a situation where you know it'll be an easy hit. Or an impossible hit.
A lot of strikes can be used after a charge, so charging into a flanked opponent would let you PA for a reliable hit. Are you using a Greatsword or some other 2handed weapon? If so, power attack often. If not, don't worry about it- your strikes are going to deal more if they hit.

[Runestar]

AC can be altered quite easily, so I wouldn't rely too much on those guidelines. For example, enemy mages buffing allies with spells like mage armour. Nothing stopping monsters from wearing armour (or better armour).

Yes, it is true that certain creature types like animals tend to have lower AC, but there are always "exceptions" to the norm. Like say, if said animal was the companion of a druid and sharing bite of the XXX...:smallamused:

[Ducklord]

I'm playing a warblade lvl3, that fights using a shield and sword. I took power attack to get to cleave, but now I'm not sore if pa is a good option. Probably not, right?

I don't intend to use a dancing shield, because it's a low magic campaign, but I might switch to a greatsword eventually.

[Eldariel]

I'm playing a warblade lvl3, that fights using a shield and sword. I took power attack to get to cleave, but now I'm not sore if pa is a good option. Probably not, right?

I don't intend to use a dancing shield, because it's a low magic campaign, but I might switch to a greatsword eventually.

You could use Buckler with Improved Buckler Defense [CWar] to free up your hands. With a Warblade, you generally can PA with e.g. Rabid Wolf Strike or Emerald Razor. But mostly, you want two-hander for PA to truly be effective; with one-handers, you generally need attack bonus higher than target AC for it to shine. With a two-hander tho, it's a different matter and PAing for 3 on level 3 is certainly a respectable option in some cases.

[Adamantrue]

[Slightly Off-Topic]

Just because I'm confused on the issue, if you take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting to wield a 1-Handed Weapon in your off-hand, does that mean you can Power Attack with it (effectively gaining the 2-for-1 that Two-Handers expect)?

[Back On-Topic]

One can usually get an idea what the opponent's AC is fairly quickly, just from the group's rolls over the first round or two. Usually there is one guy in my groups that keeps tabs on everyone's rolls, and declares it for all. It even makes sense in-game, as your characters observe how the opponent moves & evades, and adjust accordingly.

Its just a matter of doing the math at that point. I actually made a Spreadsheet that can do the job (linked to on my Blog Here (http://thecruciblednd35.blogspot.com/2010/10/random-treasures-works-in-progress.html), and download direct Here (https://sites.google.com/site/thecruciblednd35/PowerAttackCalculator.xls?attredirects=0&d=1)), keeping track of Single Attacks & Full Attacks, and helps you narrow in on the Power Attack "Sweet Spot" where you gain the biggest statistical benefit over time.

Its still technically a work in progress, as I want to factor in Critical Hits eventually too. I have some other ideas to help shortcut game calculations that I plan to eventually incorporate too (so far, this covers Power Attack & Spellbook Prices). But for the purposes mentioned here, it should be in a good enough place.

[Runestar]

Oh, what I wouldn't give for a feat which automatically subtracts your opponent's AC from your attack roll and converts this excess into PA damage...:smallbiggrin:

Shame it would tricky to implement for multiple attacks of different bab though. :smallsigh:

[Malbordeus]

i tend to power attack for whatever bonusses I have over my standard attack, maybe + a little depending on targets size / armour / type. given my melee characters tend to be trip/disarm heavy it usually goes - charge-power attack-trip-trip bonus attack. can usually afford a -6 on the attack for +12 damage with a twohanded weapon.

[panaikhan]

Our Duskblade uses a Glaive, and tends to PA to her BAB if at all possible.
A beautiful tactic she currently has is to swift-cast True Strike, then hammer the BBEG with a PA-enhanced (+16), Shocking-Grasped (+5D6) 2D4 at reach.

[Foryn Gilnith]

A damage
B to-hit
C critical chance (1 for 20, 2 for 19-20, 3 for 18-20, etc)
D critical multiplier
E armor class
F power attack

Base: C*(E-1-B)*D*A/400 + (E-1-B-C)*A/20
With Power Attack: C*(E-1-B-F)*D*(A+F)/400 + (E-1-B-C)*(A+F)/20

[Hanuman]

That's a pretty crazy doodle you just equated there.

[Flickerdart]

[Slightly Off-Topic]

Just because I'm confused on the issue, if you take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting to wield a 1-Handed Weapon in your off-hand, does that mean you can Power Attack with it (effectively gaining the 2-for-1 that Two-Handers expect)?
No. Only weapons wielded in two hands gain the 2-for-1 deal, regardless of whether or now they are actually two-handed weapons.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'm all for warblades in general, but in Ravenloft?

Aren't straight up fights supposed to be a bad idea in that setting?

Reminds me of some cheesy cash-in movie. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_the_7_Golden_Vampires)

[Freylorn]

I'm all for warblades in general, but in Ravenloft?

Aren't straight up fights supposed to be a bad idea in that setting?

Reminds me of some cheesy cash-in movie. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_the_7_Golden_Vampires)

I actually only have a passing familiarity with the setting, honestly. I know the basic plot behind it, but I have no idea how it works out in practice. I'll find that out later today.

Regardless, fights being a bad idea sort of runs counterpoint to D&D being a fairly combat-oriented game, and it seems to me that ruling out a class due to it being fighting based would rule out about 90% of the class options.

As it stands, only one other member of the party is capable of really standing toe-to-toe with anything, and even then not if she can help it. So someone to front-line seems like a good idea.

[Adamantrue]

No. Only weapons wielded in two hands gain the 2-for-1 deal, regardless of whether or now they are actually two-handed weapons. No, I get that part. Its just that one of the things TWF get's ragged on about VS THF is the 2-for-1 Power Attack.

With Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting & using two 1-Handed Weapons, do you get the Power Attack bonus for each Weapon, effectively regaining the 2-for-1?
A damage
B to-hit
C critical chance (1 for 20, 2 for 19-20, 3 for 18-20, etc)
D critical multiplier
E armor class
F power attack

Base: C*(E-1-B)*D*A/400 + (E-1-B-C)*A/20
With Power Attack: C*(E-1-B-F)*D*(A+F)/400 + (E-1-B-C)*(A+F)/20 The Spreadsheet I posted does most of those calculations (I assume...I'm too tired to follow the math), except for the Critical Hit portions. On the flip side, it does cover Full Attacks, including extra attacks for Haste/Flurry/Speed Weapon Enhancements.

[Eldariel]

[Slightly Off-Topic]

Just because I'm confused on the issue, if you take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting to wield a 1-Handed Weapon in your off-hand, does that mean you can Power Attack with it (effectively gaining the 2-for-1 that Two-Handers expect)?

[Back On-Topic]

Yeah, tho that requires hitting with both to actually get the damage, and an extra feat, and the -2 from TWF still hurts quite a bit.

[Greenish]

A lot of strikes can be used after a chargeNo strike can be used after charge (unless you gain extra actions somewhere), since they're all standard or full round actions. There's a select few that allow you to charge as a part of the strike. Off the top of my head, Tiger Claw has one, Diamond Mind has one and White Raven has a few.

Just because I'm confused on the issue, if you take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting to wield a 1-Handed Weapon in your off-hand, does that mean you can Power Attack with itYes, that's the point of OTWF.

[dextercorvia]

No. Only weapons wielded in two hands gain the 2-for-1 deal, regardless of whether or now they are actually two-handed weapons.

I think he means getting 1 for 1 on both weapons therefore per pair of attacks +2 damage for each point of attack bonus given up.

Edit: Wow. Ninja'd, Bane'd, and Pirate'd. I need to learn to refresh after reading before posting.

[Foryn Gilnith]

A: Average Damage (without power attack, including damage reduction or extra dice)
B: Power Attack Modifier (x1, x2, x4, or whatever)
C: Critical Modifier
D: Chance to Threaten Critical (3 for 18-20, for example)
E: To-Hit Modifier
F: Target AC
X: Power Attack Amount

Average Damage: Critical Hits + Failed Critical Threats + Normal Hits

(D)*(Chance to Hit)*(A+BX)*(C)+(D)*(1-Chance to Hit)*(A+BX-G)+(Chance to Hit-D)*(A+BX)

Factor out the (A+BX), and you have (A+BX-G)[DC*(Chance to Hit)+D-D*(Chance to Hit)+(Chance to Hit)-D]

Two Ds cancel out, and we can factor out (Chance to Hit), resulting in (A+BX)(Chance to Hit)(DC-D+1)

Chance to Hit is equal to (F-1-E-X)/20, which can be demonstrated with a hypothetical +2 attack bonus versus AC 13.
This makes the final equation for average damage (A+B*X)(F-1-E-X)(D*C-D+1)/20. Crudely, this is (damage)*(hit chance)*(critical stuff). Plug in A-F and ask Wolfram Alpha "max (A+B*X)(F-1-E-X)(D*C-D+1)/20" (with the letters replaced by numbers), and it will give you an X value. You should power attack for that much. If you can't power attack for that much - if it's not an integer, if it's negative, or if it's higher than your power attack limit - power attack for as close to it as possible. Plug in X and record your average damage.

To calculate average damage for full attacks, repeat this equation changing the appropriate variables for the extra attacks (iteratives only change E, natural attacks change everything but F), and then add the averages for all the attacks together.
To calculate average damage for strikes, repeat this equation changing the appropriate variables for the strikes (Mountain Hammer would change A, Emerald Razor would change F, Ruby Nightmare Blade would add a whole x2 to the end)
Compare the results and decide what situation would be optimal given the circumstances.

Now, since F is the enemy's AC, this doesn't seem helpful to you, since you lack that AC. However, if you have a rough estimate of the AC, you can try various F values in the general area of where you think the enemy's AC is in order to receive a range of Power Attack Suggestions.

Interestingly, this leads to the conclusion that using flat damage multipliers like Nightmare Blade does not affect the optimal power attack quantity (plug in some numbers and test it yourself). This is either because my math is wrong, or because the balance between "wanting to eek as much out of that 2x or 4x damage as possible, and wanting to actually land the hit in question" really is an exact balance.

Assumptions: Damage Reduction is low enough that minimum damage without power attack is non-negative, all critical threats hit the target AC, and power attacking reduces your accuracy (i.e. power attacking for 1 results in at most a 90% chance to hit).
How to Solve DR problem: I dunno lol
How to Solve High AC problem:
How to Solve Low AC problem: Let us call the maximum power attack that can be done without reducing accuracy N. Adjust A and E as if you had already Power Attacked for N, and plug them into the equation normally to find X. X, in this case, is not "How much I should Power Attack for", but "How much more I should Power Attack for". Of course, in this case, it might be wise to just full power attack.

[Person_Man]

Power Attack Optimization (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087)

Short Answer: At ECL 5 or lower, Power Attack isn't that great of an option. Your To-Hit just isn't reliable enough, and the bonus damage isn't that big compared to the base damage from your weapon + 1.5*Str + bonus damage (maneuvers, magic, etc).

At ECL 6+ you need a combination of Shock Trooper AND Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). If you're good at math, you can familiarize yourself with a Power Attack Calculator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) and keep track of your enemy's AC (by writing down what hits and doesn't hit after each attack by each player). If you're not good at math, simply max out Power Attack on every Charge and pick up a good battlefield control combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7047955) and/or Miss Change and/or karmic healing combo to mitigate counter attacks. Keep your enemies 10 feet away from you or pick up free movement or Knockback or some similar trick so that you can Charge every round, and you're set.

Beyond that you can look at damage multipliers (check the initial link), but that depends entirely on the optimization level of your party.

[Eldariel]

Short Answer: At ECL 5 or lower, Power Attack isn't that great of an option. Your To-Hit just isn't reliable enough, and the bonus damage isn't that big compared to the base damage from your weapon + 1.5*Str + bonus damage (maneuvers, magic, etc).

It's situationally very good. Some creature types (you can tell if they're magically enhanced or wear armor; if not, they have low AC) like animals and giant-types tend to have lowish AC and there's plenty of To Hit bonuses available. Emerald Razor makes it safe to PA for full usually and a successful Trip or a charge+flank easily converts into extra damage more efficiently than it does to To Hit.

High Ground bonus works. Same with e.g. Rabid Wolf Strike. There's plenty of ways to make PA work against a large number of opponents without Shock Trooper. Law Devotion goes a long way too, as does Knowledge Devotion. If opponent is e.g. blinded or you're invisible, the extra does well to be converted into PA and if opponent has mostly Dex-based AC but is denied that, you can just PA for full.


It's all a matter of bonuses and assessing the situation. Like, +9 To Hit on level 3 (20 Str, Mw. Weapon, 3 BAB) with Greatsword using Rabid Wolf Strike against AC 18 while flanking would get 1d12+7+2d6 = avg. 20,5 damage at 90% hit chance (9% crit chance for 34 avg. damage) dealing 19,665 damage a turn (accounting for linear To Hit and crit) and Power Attacking for full would get you 1d12+13+2d6 = avg. 26,5 damage for 75% hit chance (7.5% crit for 46) for 21,3375; you gain about two damage by Power Attacking in that case which is about 10% of your composite damage output. Imagine if you fought something with lower AC like Dire Wolf (CR 3, AC 14); you'd gain almost the full 6 points in damage.

[randomhero00]

I say roleplay PA out. How mad are you? How bad do you want to hurt that monsterthingy that looks so horrible? How scared are you (in other words holding back PA)? That's generally how I roll until I get to high levels and have other means such as displacement.