Most Broken spells in Core...

[Maho-Tsukai]

While most of know the big offenders I think that, for the benefit of newer players, people who don't know all the broken spells ect... that the worst offenders of broken-ness in core should be listed in some sort of fashion so they can have a better time keeping up with high OP players and knowing what spells not to use in low OP campaigns.

So, what, in your opinions, are the broken spells in Core? what are the biggest offenders? What spells seem innocent enough but in practice can be utterly abused/broken?

[Greymane]

Glitterdust.

Charm Person if your DM is really lenient.

[Gavinfoxx]

Anything that doesn't do "healing only" or "direct damage only" pretty much...

[Mr.Smashy]

Everyone knows about polymorph.


"I use my awesome powers to....turn Kyle into a chicken!"

[Zeofar]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172922) and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171898) are relevant, especially the first.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115168) one and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161858) one are less fleshed out, but still potentially useful.

[tcrudisi]

Everyone knows about polymorph.


"I use my awesome powers to....turn Kyle into a chicken!"

Hey now, we aren't playing Heretic, we are playing D&D.
Wait, stop that, WTF?! I JUST GOT PECKED TO DEATH BY A CHICKEN!

[JediSoth]

If you're talking D&D 3.5, I've found the Orb spells to be pretty overpowered (especially Orb of Force). Range touch attack, no save, bypass spell resistance. Against nimble, man-sized creatures, not so bad. Start using them in a fight against large things, like dragons, and it's awful as a DM to watch your carefully-planned fights go up in a puff of smoke.

It would be so bad if they didn't bypass spell resistance or allowed a save. But it's a conjuration, rather than evocation. When I ran World's Largest Dungeon, the warmage (yeah, there's my first mistake...allowing anything BUT core classes in WLD) made every encounter a cakewalk when he'd just spam Orb of Force.

[LordBlades]

If you're talking D&D 3.5, I've found the Orb spells to be pretty overpowered (especially Orb of Force). Range touch attack, no save, bypass spell resistance. Against nimble, man-sized creatures, not so bad. Start using them in a fight against large things, like dragons, and it's awful as a DM to watch your carefully-planned fights go up in a puff of smoke.

It would be so bad if they didn't bypass spell resistance or allowed a save. But it's a conjuration, rather than evocation. When I ran World's Largest Dungeon, the warmage (yeah, there's my first mistake...allowing anything BUT core classes in WLD) made every encounter a cakewalk when he'd just spam Orb of Force.

If Orb spells overpowered you find, much to learn about optimization you still have. (just a little pun related to your avatar, I hope you don't mind).

While strong, orbs are just ranged touch attacks that deal damage, these things being their main weaknesses.

Most big things have a big natural armor bonus. A simple casting of Scintillating Scales takes their touch AC to the roof.

Secondly they are damage spells. Most nasty save-or-suck (or even worse, no-save-just-suck, like Forcecage for example) spells can simply take a monster out of a fight in a single round. You can't achieve the same result with damage spells unless you deal enough damage to instagib the monster, which for some monsters isn't very feasible (30d6 for example barely equates to 100 or so damage on average).

[thompur]

If you're talking D&D 3.5, I've found the Orb spells to be pretty overpowered (especially Orb of Force). Range touch attack, no save, bypass spell resistance. Against nimble, man-sized creatures, not so bad. Start using them in a fight against large things, like dragons, and it's awful as a DM to watch your carefully-planned fights go up in a puff of smoke.

It would be so bad if they didn't bypass spell resistance or allowed a save. But it's a conjuration, rather than evocation. When I ran World's Largest Dungeon, the warmage (yeah, there's my first mistake...allowing anything BUT core classes in WLD) made every encounter a cakewalk when he'd just spam Orb of Force.

Is this a regular Orb of Force, or a 'meta magicked to within an inch of its life' Orb of Force?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Oh, and not to mention Necromancy's specialty of save or die....and I mean that literally. A big time blasty spells damage a creature on a failed save, putting it closer to death or perhaps killing it if it has low enough HP. A spell like, say, Finger of Death KILLS that enemy on a failed save, regardless of how much HP it has, and then dose damage even if they fail the save....and that's just purely on an terms of offensive spells....start adding spells that do more then just damage or kill something and you get into far more broken territory then any orb spell can reach.

[Baveboi]

I once saw a level 5 fighter take down a lvl 11 wizard who thought his best spell was an Orb spell. When it didn't hit the warrior, who masterfully got +9 on his dodge AC by a clever use of Combat Expertise Feat, the wizard panicked and cast Stoneskin, the warrior was 10 feet away. Big Mistake.
Readied action. 5ft step. Trip. Failed balance. Slashy, slashy, slashy, dead wizard.

Just saying.

[Telonius]

In Core? There are a few game-breaking ones. Gate, Time Stop, the Polymorph line come to mind. A very cleverly-worded Contingency can really foul things up as well.

Way too powerful but won't quite split the world asunder, or fixable with additional saves or other limitations: Forcecage, Holy Word, Blasphemy, Dictum, Word of Chaos

Too powerful for its level, or steps on other classes' toes: Grease, Detect Secret Doors, Knock, Divine Power, Wind Wall

[BeholderSlayer]

If you're talking D&D 3.5, I've found the Orb spells to be pretty overpowered (especially Orb of Force). Range touch attack, no save, bypass spell resistance. Against nimble, man-sized creatures, not so bad. Start using them in a fight against large things, like dragons, and it's awful as a DM to watch your carefully-planned fights go up in a puff of smoke.

It would be so bad if they didn't bypass spell resistance or allowed a save. But it's a conjuration, rather than evocation. When I ran World's Largest Dungeon, the warmage (yeah, there's my first mistake...allowing anything BUT core classes in WLD) made every encounter a cakewalk when he'd just spam Orb of Force.
Considering a core only wizard would have made it even easier, and Warmages are average at best, I don't really see how core vs. wld makes any difference.

[Gavinfoxx]

I once saw a level 5 fighter take down a lvl 11 wizard who thought his best spell was an Orb spell. When it didn't hit the warrior, who masterfully got +9 on his dodge AC by a clever use of Combat Expertise Feat, the wizard panicked and cast Stoneskin, the warrior was 10 feet away. Big Mistake.
Readied action. 5ft step. Trip. Failed balance. Slashy, slashy, slashy, dead wizard.

Just saying.

*Nods* And that's why it's generally considered high optimization to use high versatility battlefield control rather than blasting! Less chance of it failing and stuff.

[mostlyharmful]

The Planer Binding/ally line, the poly line, the Control Winds line, Contact other Plane, Gate, Glitterdust, Fabricate, Simulacrum, Astral projection, Mage's Disjunction (just for what it does to gameplay) and Magic Jar.

The rest can be worked around for the most part but those'll bust a game open without any real skill or chance involved.

I'd also add in Mindblank, Freedom of Movement, True Seeing (I hate absolutes..), SLAs for XP costing spells just for bad design and making whole catagories of tactics pointless.

[Baveboi]

*Nods* And that's why it's generally considered high optimization to use high versatility battlefield control rather than blasting! Less chance of it failing and stuff.

Pray it, brother!
Those blasty types, harumph. Don't even know what a spell engine is, or contingency for that matter.

[Shadowleaf]

I once saw a level 5 fighter take down a lvl 11 wizard who thought his best spell was an Orb spell. When it didn't hit the warrior, who masterfully got +9 on his dodge AC by a clever use of Combat Expertise Feat, the wizard panicked and cast Stoneskin, the warrior was 10 feet away. Big Mistake.
Readied action. 5ft step. Trip. Failed balance. Slashy, slashy, slashy, dead wizard.

Just saying.
If onyl a single third level core spell could have nullified that strategy. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm)

:smallbiggrin:

[Aotrs Commander]

Colour Spray and Sunburst are probably worth mentioning, because while they may not be broken (though the former is way better relative to it's level than the latter, and certainly, I think much worse than Grease during bottom-level play), they both are quite good at trivilising encounters. In my current party, the cleric's Sunburst is effectively neutralising virtually all the mooks in the adventure by blinding them.

(Though to be fair, oft-times my dice don't help... When you have 20 Kobold Rogues on a 50/50 chance of making their saves and get about three passes, you're on a hiding to nothing at the best of times...)

[Baveboi]

If onyl a single third level core spell could have nullified that strategy. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm)

:smallbiggrin:

But he didn't cast fly now, did he? He thought Orb spells where his Best Spells. Well...

In any case fly would still bend him over after he lost his first round. The guy didn't know how to even cast defensively. He tried for a stone s... *FIZZLE*, than dimens... *FIZZLE*. Then he ran out of HP.

[Gavinfoxx]

But he didn't cast fly now, did he? He thought Orb spells where his Best Spells. Well...

In any case fly would still bend him over after he lost his first round. The guy didn't know how to even cast defensively. He tried for a stone s... *FIZZLE*, than dimens... *FIZZLE*. Then he ran out of HP.

That's just someone who didn't know how to play a wizard! The fighter player had lots more system mastery...

[Shadowleaf]

But he didn't cast fly now, did he? He thought Orb spells where his Best Spells. Well...

In any case fly would still bend him over after he lost his first round. The guy didn't know how to even cast defensively. He tried for a stone s... *FIZZLE*, than dimens... *FIZZLE*. Then he ran out of HP.
Fine. Overland Flight then, or an Extended Fly, or any other way of not being in melee.

Point being - "Broken spells" can be a score of things, as spells are 'broken' in different degrees. There are the obviously broken ones (Gate, Polymorph, No Save Just Suck, etc), the really strong ones (Colour Spray, most SoD spells, etc) and the really strong ones if used correctly (Overland Flight, Dimension Door, etc).

The biggest problem with banning spells is that they can be used for a number of effects - a newbie Wizard will probably not realize how insanely awesome Gate is, but will think Fireball is out of this world. He might not realize the power of Fly until he meets a Power Attacking melee character.
Likewise, it is pretty hard to define which spells are broken from our point of view. I like to optimize, so I would say a great deal of spells are somewhat unfair if used against a new player.

The biggest offenders in my book is:
Wish
Gate
Time Stop
Shapechange
Polymorph
Mage’s Disjunction
Polymorph Any Object
Forcecage
Contingency
Geas
Planar Binding
Antimagic Field
Lesser Planar Binding
Wall of Force
Knock
Alter Self
Glitterdust
Grease
Color Spray

[Baveboi]

That's just someone who didn't know how to play a wizard! The fighter player had lots more system mastery...
Agreed, but most people really think spellcasting is made out of damage, saves and SR.


Fine. Overland Flight then, or an Extended Fly, or any other way of not being in melee.

Point being - "Broken spells" can be a score of things, as spells are 'broken' in different degrees. There are the obviously broken ones (Gate, Polymorph, No Save Just Suck, etc), the really strong ones (Colour Spray, most SoD spells, etc) and the really strong ones if used correctly (Overland Flight, Dimension Door, etc).

The biggest problem with banning spells is that they can be used for a number of effects - a newbie Wizard will probably not realize how insanely awesome Gate is, but will think Fireball is out of this world. He might not realize the power of Fly until he meets a Power Attacking melee character.
Likewise, it is pretty hard to define which spells are broken from our point of view. I like to optimize, so I would say a great deal of spells are somewhat unfair if used against a new player.

The biggest offenders in my book is:
Wish
Gate
Time Stop
Shapechange
Polymorph
Mage’s Disjunction
Polymorph Any Object
Forcecage
Contingency
Geas
Planar Binding
Antimagic Field
Lesser Planar Binding
Wall of Force
Knock
Alter Self
Glitterdust
Grease
Color Spray
Let me get to that in a minute.
First and foremost, know that I'm an oldschool wizard that learned how to work spellcasting on 2E and worked my way towards 3.5.

Now, about your argument. It is completely valid except for one litle thing:

There is no thing like a true fail-proof spell, nor fail-proof plan or anything of the sorts. A dispel magic can easily f*** a flying wizard. So mind spell preparation against spell preparation against spells, not only against people (It's a bit confusing, I know. Try to keep on).

Those aren't even the real "Oh C'MOOOOOM" and "YOU MUST BE KIDDING ME" spells. They are just useful spells. I could make a counter-list for each and everyone of them, but too much exposition don't get me anywhere.
I will anyway. Because. You forgot Imprisionment, Break Enchantment, Magic Jar, Spell Trap, Spell Engine, Symbol of Spell Loss, Iron Guard (and lesser) and others I don't care to, or can't by reasons of Geas/Quest, mention. If you don't know these spells I mentioned, you should.

[Eldariel]

The biggest offenders in my book is:
Wish
Gate
Time Stop
Shapechange
Polymorph
Mage’s Disjunction
Polymorph Any Object
Forcecage
Contingency
Geas
Planar Binding
Antimagic Field
Lesser Planar Binding
Wall of Force
Knock
Alter Self
Glitterdust
Grease
Color Spray

Simulacrum definitely belongs on that list, and if Glitterdust is there you should include Slow and Pyrotechnics too. There's more, of course.

[FMArthur]

Of all the grossly overpowering spells a core spellcaster can get into, I have to say that the only thing I've actually see ruin a campaign outright are the NPC interaction/control spells. Glibness, Charm, Dominate, etc. They are stupidly ill-defined in their limitations and while there are few definitively prohibitive or lenient phrases in the spell and skill descriptions, they do seem to suggest the more broken interpretations more than others. They are broken because their effects require, as their key component, DM fiat.

[Shadowleaf]

Agreed, but most people really think spellcasting is made out of damage, saves and SR.


Let me get to that in a minute.
First and foremost, know that I'm an oldschool wizard that learned how to work spellcasting on 2E and worked my way towards 3.5.

Now, about your argument. It is completely valid except for one litle thing:

There is no thing like a true fail-proof spell, nor fail-proof plan or anything of the sorts. A dispel magic can easily f*** a flying wizard. So mind spell preparation against spell preparation against spells, not only against people (It's a bit confusing, I know. Try to keep on).

Those aren't even the real "Oh C'MOOOOOM" and "YOU MUST BE KIDDING ME" spells. They are just useful spells. I could make a counter-list for each and everyone of them, but too much exposition don't get me anywhere.
I will anyway. Because. You forgot Imprisionment, Break Enchantment, Magic Jar, Spell Trap, Spell Engine, Symbol of Spell Loss, Iron Guard (and lesser) and others I don't care to, or can't by reasons of Geas/Quest, mention. If you don't know these spells I mentioned, you should.
You are right - you can take down a Wizard, if you know how to tailor your gear/spells as a counter to his.

That being said, the spells still break the balance, and therefore are broken by my definition. If a spell can lock down noncasters altogether (Forcecage), I would very much consider it broken - even if it isn't broken in other contexts.
Broken spells don't have to be "I just win" spells, they can just be broken compared to similar options for other classes. Again, it depends on the definition.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just FYI... There are a lot of "at least 1 hour/level" buffs that a level 10 wizard could have up that would've been useful at this point.

He should probably've had (Greater?) Mage Armor and Overland Flight up... those are spells that it is fairly easy to assume that a wizard at that level has up if he even remotely expects trouble sometime during the waking hours of that day.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Knock
This is consistently cited and I never see why. Knock isn't broken the way Glitterdust and Alter Self are. Open Lock is broken the way Samurai and Soulblade are.

[MrTytronico]

Shape Stone, depending on how much set up time you have and how the GM calls it you can do some retarded things with it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you're talking D&D 3.5, I've found the Orb spells to be pretty overpowered (especially Orb of Force). Range touch attack, no save, bypass spell resistance. Against nimble, man-sized creatures, not so bad. Start using them in a fight against large things, like dragons, and it's awful as a DM to watch your carefully-planned fights go up in a puff of smoke.

It would be so bad if they didn't bypass spell resistance or allowed a save. But it's a conjuration, rather than evocation. When I ran World's Largest Dungeon, the warmage (yeah, there's my first mistake...allowing anything BUT core classes in WLD) made every encounter a cakewalk when he'd just spam Orb of Force.

Amusingly enough Orb of Force is not even the best Orb spell, it might be able to affect almost anything (IIRC the Epic Force or Prismatic Dragon are immune to force effects), but it has a lower damage cap and no Rider effect. Orb of fire on the other hand has a good damage, and the rider effect is awesome (Daze is one of the best status effect you can inflict). Beside it is trivially easy to bypass fire immunity (Searing spell or energy substitution).


As far as broken spells in core go... Gate and planar binding are the worst offenders in my opinion.... Divine Power is also bad, since you can substitute melee fighters with it a no (relative) cost.

[Zeful]

You are right - you can take down a Wizard, if you know how to tailor your gear/spells as a counter to his.

That being said, the spells still break the balance, and therefore are broken by my definition. If a spell can lock down noncasters altogether (Forcecage), I would very much consider it broken - even if it isn't broken in other contexts.
Broken spells don't have to be "I just win" spells, they can just be broken compared to similar options for other classes. Again, it depends on the definition.

Then Protection from Arrows and Wind Wall are broken by your definition, because like Forcecage it locks down non-casters (magic ammunition against the first still count because there needs to be some kind of magic to make them, meaning a caster)

[Shadowleaf]

This is consistently cited and I never see why. Knock isn't broken the way Glitterdust and Alter Self are. Open Lock is broken the way Samurai and Soulblade are.
Well, the argument is that it makes the Rogue's Open Lock next to useless. A Wizard is not supposed to be 'the guy who can do everything just better'... But he sadly is. Knock is one of the reason why. You're right, it's not the spell itself that's broken. It's the fact that a Wizard can make the Rogue's Open Lock skill useless with a standard action - D&D is a team game, and a single character class shouldn't be able to do everything.



Then Protection from Arrows and Wind Wall are broken by your definition, because like Forcecage it locks down non-casters (magic ammunition against the first still count because there needs to be some kind of magic to make them, meaning a caster)Your mileage may vary greatly from my selection - it's influenced by previous experiences, mostly.

The main problem is usually combining spells - Fly, Wind Wall and Protection From Arrows? Your Manyshot Archer is useless until he shells out for magical arrows. This is neither fair nor balanced.

[Baveboi]

The main problem is usually combining spells - Fly, Wind Wall and Protection From Arrows? Your Manyshot Archer is useless until he shells out for magical arrows. This is neither fair nor balanced.

I mostly agree with you on the topic above except on this part.
The problem about mages is: They relly on magic too much.
I've seen a rogue level 4 use a scroll of Dispel Magic to kill one of those "Let's fly away" wizards. It's not uncommon.

Also, can't beat the guy? He's buffed to godhood? Then go away and come back later. As Zun Tsu would say, half of the batle is knowing if you are going to win or to lose.

[bokodasu]

Most big things have a big natural armor bonus.

Natural armor doesn't add to your touch AC. And many big things have low AC, and are big. But yes, there are spells to cover for that.

[Shadowleaf]

I mostly agree with you on the topic above except on this part.
The problem about mages is: They relly on magic too much.
I've seen a rogue level 4 use a scroll of Dispel Magic to kill one of those "Let's fly away" wizards. It's not uncommon.

Also, can't beat the guy? He's buffed to godhood? Then go away and come back later. As Zun Tsu would say, half of the batle is knowing if you are going to win or to lose.
Most things have a counter. The Rogue used a standard action on casting Dispel Magic - the Wizard uses his standard action casting Hold Person, which is easily DC 17. Or Gaseous Form. Or Slow. You get the picture.

[Zeful]

Your mileage may vary greatly from my selection - it's influenced by previous experiences, mostly.

The main problem is usually combining spells - Fly, Wind Wall and Protection From Arrows? Your Manyshot Archer is useless until he shells out for magical arrows. This is neither fair nor balanced.
Which is why you make fly weaker (Poor manuverability) allow skilled archers to shoot through the wall (20% miss chance rather than negating all non-siege ranged attacks), and increase the damaging potential of ranged weapons in general, and decrese the scaling of the PfA (at level 20 it's got 100+ DR/Magic, it will neven need that much, toss a CL cap on the thing).

There are very few broken spells that cannot be fixed (like Celerity). It's the knowing how to fix them that's hard.

[Telonius]

I mostly agree with you on the topic above except on this part.
The problem about mages is: They relly on magic too much.
I've seen a rogue level 4 use a scroll of Dispel Magic to kill one of those "Let's fly away" wizards. It's not uncommon.


A scroll that was created by ... ? That's the larger philosophical issue. Of course mages rely on magic too much, just like fighter types rely on swords and arrows too much. Without magic, mages don't have much. Without weapons, fighters don't have much. But after the first couple levels, in order for a fighter type to have any prayer of credibly threatening a mage that's even marginally optimized, he has to be able to cast spells - usually in the form of items created by mages. (Thus the saying that the best way to beat a wizard is to get a bigger wizard). The reverse is not true for mages. They can credibly threaten fighter-types without ever picking up a weapon.

[isotunknown]

I'm wondering how Grease and Glitterdust are "broken"; don't mistake me, I see them as highly useful, but I'm not sure how they are game breaking.

Is it just the save or suck aspects of these spells? Or that they can, if cast at the right time, affect lots of opponents?

I'd appreciate some enlightenment here.

[Baveboi]

A scroll that was created by ... ? That's the larger philosophical issue. Of course mages rely on magic too much, just like fighter types rely on swords and arrows too much. Without magic, mages don't have much. Without weapons, fighters don't have much. But after the first couple levels, in order for a fighter type to have any prayer of credibly threatening a mage that's even marginally optimized, he has to be able to cast spells - usually in the form of items created by mages. (Thus the saying that the best way to beat a wizard is to get a bigger wizard). The reverse is not true for mages. They can credibly threaten fighter-types without ever picking up a weapon.

Now that's a well defended POV. Let me elaborate my own.

A mage that don't use weapons is dead meat, as is a fighter that don't use magic. Also, who said a wizard created magic in the first place? The gods, dragons and many other creatures are natural spellcasters. In a fantasy setting, specially D&D related, magic is part of the air the characters breath. "I bought a scroll to beat up a mage, so it's cheating" no, it's using a resource open to you.
Fighter types think they can work around magic without the use of MORE magic? They are wrong, as are wizards that think they can work around fighters without any knowledge on the topic, hence the wizard who died because he didn't know how to cast defensively and about spell dis... *FIZZLE*.

True, there are tons of anti-melee spells, but focusing on them turns out to be just as bad as ignoring them. The true about spellcasting is that it is a tool and only matters on the hands of people who knows how to use it. If it's a rogue, a fighter or a fishy Aboleth, it really doesn't matter.

[Shadowleaf]

Now that's a well defended POV. Let me elaborate my own.

A mage that don't use weapons is dead meat, as is a fighter that don't use magic.
Why would a Wizard use a weapon? He has spells for damage or just plain death. 95% of those are Ranged.



"I bought a scroll to beat up a mage, so it's cheating" no, it's using a resource open to you.
But who makes Scrolls? Wizards.



True, there are tons of anti-melee spells, but focusing on them turns out to be just as bad as ignoring them.
Why would that be? A Wizard with anti-melee spells is better off than a Wizard without. It's not like a higher level Wizard is going to run out of spells - and if he does, Teleport out of there.

[Baveboi]

Why would a Wizard use a weapon? He has spells for damage or just plain death. 95% of those are Ranged. [1]

But who makes Scrolls? Wizards. [2]

Why would that be? A Wizard with anti-melee spells is better off than a Wizard without. It's not like a higher level Wizard is going to run out of spells - and if he does, Teleport out of there. [3]

1 - True. But spells are only ONE kind of tool, not the ultimate kind of tool either.

2 - You can wish a Dijinn to make scrolls. TONS of them. Or a god. Or a dragon could make thousands by spending his hoard and taking the feat + human form. There's no end to the fun.

3 - Because any other wizard, or anything -really-, who merely had one smart spell would kick him into oblivion and your job is not only winning, is getting out alive of it. Also, do you know any non-magical ways to block interplanar travel? Well, I do. My fighter, with a bit of planing, can bitchslap a teleporter any day.


Edit: Sorry, I was a bit rude. What I meant to say is; it always pays off to be prepared to any kind of situations, not only the expected ones, but the trully unexpected too.
Again, sorry if I looked a bit short-tempered. It's a touchy subject to me, since I'm a gith of heart.

[Shadowleaf]

1 - True. But spells are only ONE kind of tool, not the ultimate kind of tool either.

2 - You can wish a Dijinn to make scrolls. TONS of them. Or a god. Or a dragon could make thousands by spending his hoard and taking the feat + human form. There's no end to the fun.

3 - Because any other wizard, or anything -really-, who merely had one smart spell would kick him into oblivion and your job is not only winning, is getting out alive of it. Also, do you know any non-magical ways to block interplanar travel? Well, I do. My fighter, with a bit of planing, can bitchslap a teleporter any day.


Edit: Sorry, I was a bit rude. What I meant to say is; it always pays off to be prepared to any kind of situations, not only the expected ones, but the trully unexpected too.
Again, sorry if I looked a bit short-tempered. It's a touchy subject to me, since I'm a gith of heart.
Magic is pretty much the ultimate tool, since you can do anything with it.

You'll still need magic to create scrolls. Wizards use magic - the same 'tool'. A Fighter will need the help of a spellcaster to get scrolls - so the point still stands.

And what non-magical ways are there of blocking Teleport? Interplanar and Teleport are two different things, mind you. :smallsmile:

[Baveboi]

Magic is pretty much the ultimate tool, since you can do anything with it.

You'll still need magic to create scrolls. Wizards use magic - the same 'tool'. A Fighter will need the help of a spellcaster to get scrolls - so the point still stands.

And what non-magical ways are there of blocking Teleport? Interplanar and Teleport are two different things, mind you. :smallsmile:

First, if you did your research well enough, you would note that Teleport, as well as Blink, Ethereal Jaunt, Shadow Step and the like are all interplanar travel. Teleportation takes you to the Astral Plane were you travel at speeds unimaginable and then back to the prime. Blink jump to the Ethereal plane. Shadow Step to the Shadow plane.
Sincerily now, I am SO reluctant to tell you this, but since I'm confident that you won't actually search the reference out I will just say it anyway: Medusa's blood. A property of the it, when it get colds it doesn't allow for interplanar travel to occur, strangely enough. There's also the matter of glass made of the ash from a dead god's body and permastones from the Limbo, but they are too much high-level a loot for me to hunt down carelessly.

Now, there is a question: can I get a Dragon to writte a scroll for me? Yes. Is he a wizard? No. Same with the Dijinn or the Divini Intervention thesis.


And spellcasting is NOT the ultimate tool, because it's fruit of another, more powerful one: The written word. It kills gods, destroy empires and raise entire worlds from pure nothingness.

[Telonius]

And spellcasting is NOT the ultimate tool, because it's fruit of another, more powerful one: The written word. It kills gods, destroy empires and raise entire worlds from pure nothingness.

There's a spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/erase.htm)for that, too. :smallbiggrin:

[Shadowleaf]

First, if you did your research well enough, you would note that Teleport, as well as Blink, Ethereal Jaunt, Shadow Step and the like are all interplanar travel. Teleportation takes you to the Astral Plane were you travel at speeds unimaginable and then back to the prime. Blink jump to the Ethereal plane. Shadow Step to the Shadow plane.
Sincerily now, I am SO reluctant to tell you this, but since I'm confident that you won't actually search the reference out I will just say it anyway: Medusa's blood. A property of the it, when it get colds it doesn't allow for interplanar travel to occur, strangely enough. There's also the matter of glass made of the ash from a dead god's body and permastones from the Limbo, but they are too much high-level a loot for me to hunt down carelessly.

Now, there is a question: can I get a Dragon to writte a scroll for me? Yes. Is he a wizard? No. Same with the Dijinn or the Divini Intervention thesis.


And spellcasting is NOT the ultimate tool, because it's fruit of another, more powerful one: The written word. It kills gods, destroy empires and raise entire worlds from pure nothingness.I think you are confusing personal fluff with RAW. "Interplanar travel is not possible." From the description of the Teleport spell.

The Medusa's Blood and permastones from Limbo is fluff/homebrew as well, I reckon.

And by RAW, a Dragon cannot write scrolls.

I fail to see how magic is a fruit of the written word. Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics and so forth use magic as well, and they do fine without writing. :smalltongue:

[Baveboi]

I think you are confusing personal fluff with RAW. "Interplanar travel is not possible." From the description of the Teleport spell.

The Medusa's Blood and permastones from Limbo is fluff/homebrew as well, I reckon.

And by RAW, a Dragon cannot write scrolls.

I fail to see how magic is a fruit of the written word. Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics and so forth use magic as well, and they do fine without writing. :smalltongue:

Medusa's Blood and yadda yadda are oficial OGL material. I just don't WANT to point out where you can find it because that's how Volo became a frog in the first place, so... I spoke too much.
By RAW, a Dragon CAN write scrolls, read books and even copulate while assuming other forms (with apropriate feat for scrolls). The powerful ones only, tho.
"Interplanar travel is not possible." from the description of the spell states that you can't end up in another plane. But you can't leave a room with Dimensional Lock on using teleportation, tell me why.
Finally, try taking in consideration that everything you know about magic was written in the first place...

Again, you didn't make your homework right. Never take apart "fluff" and "RAW" for they are offspring of the same hand and, in case of absence, a lone part will spawn the other.


PS: Do note that this is an interpretation of the rules as seen by the bigger picture, of course, but just a POV nonetheless. Even if you desire to cast such a short spammed view on the game in its entirety, you should not try to sell this as the truth.

[Shadowleaf]

Medusa's Blood and yadda yadda are oficial OGL material. I just don't WANT to point out where you can find it because that's how Volo became a frog in the first place, so... I spoke too much.
By RAW, a Dragon CAN write scrolls, read books and even copulate while assuming other forms (with apropriate feat for scrolls). The powerful ones only, tho.
"Interplanar travel is not possible." from the description of the spell states that you can't end up in another plane. But you can't leave a room with Dimensional Lock on using teleportation, tell me why.
Finally, try taking in consideration that everything you know about magic was written in the first place...

Again, you didn't make your homework right. Never take apart "fluff" and "RAW" for they are offspring of the same hand and, in case of absence, a lone part will spawn the other.


PS: Do note that this is an interpretation of the rules as seen by the bigger picture, of course, but just a POV nonetheless. Even if you desire to cast such a short spammed view on the game in its entirety, you should not try to sell this as the truth.

The only thing we can use as a foundation for this sort of discussion is RAW. Not RAI, not fluff, but RAW. OGL is 'homebrew' and therefore has little place in a RAW discussion.

And Sorcerers don't need to read books on how to cast magic. They just do it.

I think you're mixing extradimensional and interplanar travel.

[Esser-Z]

Prestidigitation, especially with the web-enhanced uses. It's just SO INCREDIBLY VERSATILE.

[Seatbelt]

A mage that don't use weapons is dead meat


False. My mage neither owns or desires a weapon of any sort. He has never needed one.

[Esser-Z]

A mage that don't use weapons is dead meat

False.

He sits around a lot at low levels, but does fine later, from increased slot availability and reserve feat(s).

[Warlawk]

I've been keeping an eye on this thread today, and was trying to decide what to contribute... but I really can't tell anymore if it's just a very elaborate troll.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I am not a troll. Such a title is too unfitting of my true wicked nature....most trolls are chaotic netural unless they are the 4chan/anon types which puts them closer to chaotic evil.(Seriously...they had a plan to incite mass chaos/troll a whole country...it did not work as far as I know but the intent was there and that warrants chaotic neutral at best and chaotic evil at worse in my book...but then again I am not one to talk as if I have the moral authority.)......but anyway...

This thread was started with the best of intentions. My girlfriend is trying to learn 3.5e. As a "lesson" later I want to teach her about the tier system and what spells are broken/overpowered so she can keep up with people like us on these forums.....and also to prevent her from utterly trolling players that are not me. She's literally a genius and in 1e(The D&D system she knows.) she's already found some incredibly crazy/ridiculous uses for spells.(She was able to turn a unassuming level 1 cleric spell from 1e into a auto kill spell. No save. It just auto kills you, end of story... Seriously...and she did not change the rules at all....she just abused the heck out of the spell as it was written....she's just a natural at caster characters but prefers thieves in 1e and usually multiclasses theif/magic-user. XD)

So, I want to both teach her about the (non-existent) balance of the game and help her plot more evil and yet be sensible with how she uses spells.

[ark7]

... but I really can't tell anymore if it's just a very elaborate troll.
pin pon pin pon! we have a winner!

But seriously now, all this discussion about raw or cooked is just like the old discussion about official vs unofficial. It's pointless, because you are all free people, you can use whatever you want, think whatever you want, and anyone who tries to say you're wrong is just trying to make you think like him - in other words, a mentality tyrant. And regarding flavor, it's pointless to run the rules without flavor.

I wish I could /topic now, but the mentality tyrants won't have it, so I'll just leave by saying I'll never look up this topic again, so whatever you say in response to my post is irrelevant! =D

See ya~ o/