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Hanuman
2010-12-02, 01:08 PM
Alright guys, this may be the best trick I've dug up for a while so please mercilessly RAW and PEACH the hell out of it.

Eb.294 lists the Living Spell template for creatures, there's no base creature but instead has a base spell.

My proposal is to use polymorph to cast spells, except you are the spell.

Polymorph into Living Spell.

I realize I don't know a lot about polymorph mechanics, but if the slam attacks and engulf still work, I could see this being absolutely ridiculous.

1) Your new form has 10 STR, 7 Dex and 10 Con PER SPELL LEVEL. The normal cap for polymorph HD15 (HD20 after draconic polymorph feat), and since Living Spell uses caster level for HD this gives a wizard up to 8th level spells to transform into. That means you replace your STR, Dex and Con to:
Str: 80
Dex: 70
Con: 80
Or, as a level 7 wizard:
Str: 40
Dex: 28
Con: 40
You also gain DR10/Magic, SR10+CL, Deflection AC = Spell level, Bonus to Saves = Spell Level,

2) You get a single slam attack at 1 1/2 your new strength score, which even without accounting for BAB is +14 (Large Size, +15) and 1D6+22 at level 7, which makes you hit hard and consistent for your level against magic immune.
Level 15 would mean +33 (Huge Size, +35) and 1D8+52 damage, which is pretty darn reliable and consistent melee damage considering a 15th level rogue has a sneak attack die of 6dmg to 48damage (average 28) and likely misses more.
Slams have a reach of 10' and at level 13 improves to 15'.

3)
Engulf – as a Standard Action the Living Spell may move to
surround as many targets as fit within its size. It does not get to
make Slam attacks when Engulfing. Each creature engulfed may
make an Attack of Opportunity –or– a Reflex save to be pushed
out of the way (DC = 10 + spell level + Charisma modifier).
Any creature Engulfed is automatically Grappled and is effected
by the spell effect each round.

At level 7-12 a caster is large and can envelope a 10x10 area with spell damage every round, at level 13+ the caster becomes huge.

With the massive strength score, I don't think grappling will be a problem, this also grapples multiple opponents, with vague rules on how this comes together.

4) You can turn into any spell, that means that ANY spell that qualifies for the template can be polymorphed! Talk about enhanced utility!




Please find flaws in the idea! There's gotta be some fine print somewhere!

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-02, 01:10 PM
I don't think you can Polymorph into things with templates, can you?

Hanuman
2010-12-02, 01:11 PM
I don't think you can Polymorph into things with templates, can you?

Can we have a cite to that? I think this idea is damn cool but it seems broken to no end.

Zeofar
2010-12-02, 01:16 PM
No, it has Strength, Constitution, and Charisma equal to 10 + spell level. Dexterity and Wisdom are 7 + spell level. One adds, not multiplies.

The save bonus isn't great when you consider that Oozes have no good saves.

Beside the abilities and consequent bonked math, everything else seems fine; it isn't fine print that makes this only mediocre (in terms of polymorph cheese), though. I don't know if you actually can become a Living Spell, though.

bokodasu
2010-12-02, 01:24 PM
It's in the Alter Self text: "You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype." Polymorph doesn't have anything to override that, so it doesn't.

Hanuman
2010-12-02, 01:35 PM
Thanks guys! Knew I had fumbled somewhere!

So, are there any non-template living spells worth polymorphing into?

In Crystalkeep's compendium it lists them all as having templates?

bannable
2010-12-02, 01:57 PM
Thanks guys! Knew I had fumbled somewhere!

So, are there any non-template living spells worth polymorphing into?

In Crystalkeep's compendium it lists them all as having templates?

That's because Living Spell is a template...

Duke of URL
2010-12-02, 02:00 PM
When I saw the title, I actually thought this was going to be about a living polymorph spell. Would such a living spell be able to polymorph itself into other forms?

Chambers
2010-12-02, 02:03 PM
When I saw the title, I actually thought this was going to be about a living polymorph spell. Would such a living spell be able to polymorph itself into other forms?

Me too. I thought...A Living Polymorph Spell? That's...awesome!

Maybe as part of the Living Spells slam attack it randomly polymorphs the creature. You could roll on the Reincarnation table. ::shrug::

Duke of URL
2010-12-02, 02:09 PM
Maybe as part of the Living Spells slam attack it randomly polymorphs the creature. You could roll on the Reincarnation table. ::shrug::

From a RAW standpoint, it's actually problematic since the spell requires a willing subject. So, I guess you could be polymorphed, but only if you wanted to be?

I'd personally houserule it as being OK to use against unwilling targets, but allowing a will save and subject to SR.

Tvtyrant
2010-12-02, 02:13 PM
The best one that isn't a template is Glitterfire Storm; its essentially a living fireball+glitterdust, so its blinds, reveals and burns everything in sight. Or the living desecrate spell.

Lysander
2010-12-02, 02:15 PM
IMO, a good living polymorph spell would be a creature that can cast polymorph on itself at will

Psyren
2010-12-02, 02:29 PM
Not to burst anyone's bubble, but Polymorph is not eligible to be made a Living Spell.



The template can be applied to any spells that create an area or effect (not targeted spells), but not a spell whose effect is already a creature (such as a summon monster spell).

Polymorph has a "Target:" line, making it ineligible.

As for cool living spells, Living Disintegrate can tear apart a Maze. Living AMF could be trouble. I wonder what Living Holy Word would look like?

Hanuman
2010-12-02, 02:38 PM
That's because Living Spell is a template...
Ah I see how that's categorized now, thanks.

bloodtide
2010-12-02, 02:38 PM
I like the idea of a Living Polymorph Spell, that would randomly polymorph any target hit into a random creature.

But 3X nerfs polymorph is much that it is impossible, by the rules.

nedz
2010-12-02, 03:13 PM
The best one that isn't a template is Glitterfire Storm; its essentially a living fireball+glitterdust, so its blinds, reveals and burns everything in sight. Or the living desecrate spell.

Where is Glitterfire Storm from ?
I though it was just an example of a Living Spell ?


I wonder what Living Holy Word would look like?

Similiar to Living Blasphemy, which is described.

WarKitty
2010-12-02, 03:29 PM
I want to see Living Heal.

Psyren
2010-12-02, 04:05 PM
Similiar to Living Blasphemy, which is described.

"A 15-foot-tall obelisklike pillar of shining gold with sky-blue flecks creeps toward you. You feel utmost peace and serenity as you are engulfed."


I want to see Living Heal.

BUZZ! Invalid! :smalltongue:

Hanuman
2010-12-02, 04:07 PM
I want to see Living Heal.
What about a Living Leomund's Hidden Lodge?
20' movement speed invisible house.... ooze.

It spends a standard action to let you inside of it, and once inside it's already grappling you! Sneaky!

OH GOD ITS SUBJECTING ME TO COZINESS, EVERY ROUND >.<

Zeofar
2010-12-02, 04:08 PM
I want to see Living Heal.


Not to burst anyone's bubble, but Polymorph is not eligible to be made a Living Spell.

Polymorph has a "Target:" line, making it ineligible.





Heal
Target: Creature Touched


Whoops. Looks like that isn't going to happen.

WarKitty
2010-12-02, 04:45 PM
Whoops. Looks like that isn't going to happen.

I'm thinking I might make it happen anyways. I'm not a particularly RAW-strict DM.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-12-02, 07:42 PM
I'm thinking I might make it happen anyways. I'm not a particularly RAW-strict DM.

Couldn't you just use mass heal instead? :smallconfused:

Zeofar
2010-12-02, 08:17 PM
Couldn't you just use mass heal instead? :smallconfused:

No, for the exact same reason.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-12-02, 08:40 PM
No, for the exact same reason.

Oh. :smallredface: Right. Jeez, even vigorous circle doesn't work. It isn't a circle at all.

Hanuman
2010-12-02, 09:19 PM
Oh. :smallredface: Right. Jeez, even vigorous circle doesn't work. It isn't a circle at all.
Is Vigorous Circle anything like Mordenkainen's Circuitous Beneficial Exchange?

faceroll
2010-12-02, 11:11 PM
Is Vigorous Circle anything like Mordenkainen's Circuitous Beneficial Exchange?

That sounds like a euphemism.