dex-based melee help (3.PF)

[WarKitty]

I'm looking to build a dex-based melee character. Would be using TWF with some form of bonus damage, probably sneak attack unless anyone has good idea for something better. Some casting is ok but I don't want to be a primary caster. Likely using small size for the extra to-hit and AC and hide bonuses. If sneak attack is used I'd need some way to reliably deny dex bonus. Was thinking of using a kobold base - dragonwrought has a few cool benefits even without using cheese. I'm not sure how effective straight rogue levels are, or if there's another good way to get bonus damage. Any good ideas?

Edit: links to good builds are welcome.

[dextercorvia]

I'm looking to build a dex-based melee character. Would be using TWF with some form of bonus damage, probably sneak attack unless anyone has good idea for something better. Some casting is ok but I don't want to be a primary caster. Likely using small size for the extra to-hit and AC and hide bonuses. If sneak attack is used I'd need some way to reliably deny dex bonus. Was thinking of using a kobold base - dragonwrought has a few cool benefits even without using cheese. I'm not sure how effective straight rogue levels are, or if there's another good way to get bonus damage. Any good ideas?

Warlock1 for the Darkness invocation, and the feat Planar Touchstone:Catalogs of enlightment to pick up the Baator Domain ability... Lets you see normally in normal or magical darkness.

There is a Monk substitution level in EoE that trades Still Mind for an Invisibilty abilty that lasts for an entire round even if you attack, usable every couple of rounds. If you are taking Monk3, you might as well use the Sleeping Tiger Variant to pick up Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse.

A two level Swordsage dip can get you the +2d6 SA stance, and qualifies you for the feat adding Dex to damage. (take the dip at ECL 9,10)

[Chambers]

What's the starting level and what level do you expect the campaign to reach? What books are allowed?

PId6's Rogue Handbook. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233#post8711233)

[WarKitty]

What's the starting level and what level do you expect the campaign to reach? What books are allowed?

PId6's Rogue Handbook. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233#post8711233)

Currently it's a theoretical build, but it needs to be effective at all levels with no retraining. (No chaos shuffle cheese either please.) Also no LA buyoff.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A rogue 4/Swordsage 16 is a perfectly good Dex based build

Get rogue 3 to trade trap-sense for Penetrating strike (deal half SA to immune creatures if you are flanking them). Shadow Blade to deal Dex and Str when using Shadow Hand weapons (daggers, siangam, unarmed strike & Spiked chain IIRC).

[WarKitty]

A rogue 4/Swordsage 16 is a perfectly good Dex based build

Get rogue 3 to trade trap-sense for Penetrating strike (deal half SA to immune creatures if you are flanking them). Shadow Blade to deal Dex and Str when using Shadow Hand weapons (daggers, siangam, unarmed strike & Spiked chain IIRC).

Do I really Penetrating strike in pathfinder? Only oozes, elementals, and swarms are immune to crits.

[dextercorvia]

It depends on how you play PF. My understanding was that their rules replaced what they replace, but that un-updated stuff was still allowed.

[WarKitty]

It depends on how you play PF. My understanding was that their rules replaced what they replace, but that un-updated stuff was still allowed.

That is correct. But the new crit rules are applied, so undead, plant creatures, and constructs are now vulnerable to sneak attack. Hence why penetrating strike isn't as useful anymore, because it applies to so few enemies.

[dextercorvia]

Then I wouldn't mess with it on that 4d6 SA build.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That is correct. But the new crit rules are applied, so undead, plant creatures, and constructs are now vulnerable to sneak attack. Hence why penetrating strike isn't as useful anymore, because it applies to so few enemies.

Didn't know about that particular rule, I guess it isn't needed, but in either case trap sense isn't that useful in the first place (IME) so having a trump card in the off chance you actually fight somethign immune to SA

[Person_Man]

In my opinion, Dex based Skill Monkey builds aren't very efficient at delivering damage compared to, well, pretty much everyone else. Instead, you should focus on things that you're good at. Specific suggestions:

Combat Reflexes + Stand Still: Unlike Trip, Grapple, Bull Rush, etc, Stand Still does not depend on size or Strength. Use it with a reach weapon and decent damage, and it's 95% effective at stopping all enemies who move through your threatened square and provoke an AoO.
Boomerang Daze, Ironsoul Forgemaster, Dire Flail Smash, or Anvil of Thunder: Any of these options will give you a Save or Daze effect (everything is subject to Daze), and synergizes well with TWF. Boomerang Daze in particular is so potent that the DMs I play with ban it. Ironsoul Forgemaster's Save or Daze is on every attack, but doesn't kick in until ECL 15. On the surface he's a tank, but in reality Incarnum based builds are also great Skill Monkeys. Dire Flail Smash and Anvil of Thunder are both once per target effects requiring 2 hits on the target. They're the least powerful, but the most likely to be accepted in a normal game.
Karmic Strike and/or Robilar's Gambit + Double Hit (Miniature's Handbook): Karmic and Rob's gives you an AoO when your enemy hit or attacks you. Double Hit lets you attack twice when you make an AoO (requires TWF). Synergizes very well with a Daze combo.
Spinning Sword: Secrets of Sarlona, pg 136. Basically a Spiked Chain that you can only use with one hand. Useful if you want reach with a TWF build.
Speaking of exotic weapons, Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526) is an excellent Int/Dex build.
Sleight of Hand: You need to be able to make a DC 20 check if you want to pick pocket something as a Standard Action. If you want to do it as a Free Action, you need to be able to do it with a -20 penalty. That makes it nearly impossible to pull off at low levels. But by mid levels it can be done with some combination of high Dex, Factotum, Marshal, Incarnate (Theft Gloves soulmeld), a Skill boosting magic item, and/or Item Familiar. Lift an enemy's spell pouch or holy symbol and he can't cast. Lift an archer's quiver and he can't attack. Take the time to Gather Info on an enemy before combat and find out if he has any magic items he depends on, then take them the first round of combat.
Staggering Strike: Another decent status effect. When you Sneak Attack an enemy in melee, they must Save or be Staggered for 1 round. Comp Adventurer.
Craven: Adds character level damage to any Sneak Attack. Useful for bumping up your base damage to 40ish per attack (important for Stand Still, Boomerang Daze, and Staggering Strike, as their Save DCs are damage based) without spending more then 1 level on Rogue or something similar.

[WarKitty]

Keep in mind I'm in a very mixed optimization group. I don't have to keep up with the ubercharger in damage; I do have to keep up with the PA barbarian. That said, other things to do are also nice - I do like the list, and it would keep me relevant longer into the game. I'm thinking of taking dragonwrought+dragonwings so I'll at least get at-will flight. Caster disruption ideas are good too.

[fractal_uk]

Something I discovered recently is that the Pathfinder Inquisitor makes a decent Dex-based two-weapon fighting character. Probably better than the rogue thanks to superior attack bonus thanks to lots of buffs.

You have access to Heroism, Divine Power plus a couple of Inquisistor Judgements that give bonuses to attack and damage. You should be able to gather enough bonuses from these sources that you are actually getting a decent bonus to damage especially when you throw in some power attack. As a two-weapon fighter in Pathfinder I guess you can worry a little less about DR too.

If you have some 3.5 stuff available you could try and throw in some Champion of Corellon Larethian (Races of the Wild). Two levels of that will get you Dex to damage but it will cost you feats which is not ideal considering the TWF feat taxes.

You could, however, try making use of Knowledge Devotion. The Inquisitor ability to add Wisdom to knowledge checks should get you more mileage than you otherwise would out of that - a flat +5 bonus to damage becomes all the more useful the more attacks you have!

I wouldn't use such a character in a highly optimised party but it should happily compete with a power-attacking fighter/barbarian, which it sounds like is all you need.

[Person_Man]

Keep in mind I'm in a very mixed optimization group. I don't have to keep up with the ubercharger in damage; I do have to keep up with the PA barbarian. That said, other things to do are also nice - I do like the list, and it would keep me relevant longer into the game. I'm thinking of taking dragonwrought+dragonwings so I'll at least get at-will flight. Caster disruption ideas are good too.

On flight: Not that useful for melee builds. Enemies tend to clump together on the ground, and access to Tumble lets you get to whoever you need to pretty easily. In the few combats where you do need flight, there are literally dozens of magic items which grant it. Thus there's not much of a reason to spend 2 feats to get it.

If you're going to be a ranged build or a build that would benefit from Flyby Attack (move, Standard Action spell/power/maneuver/vestige, move), then I'm all for getting all day flight. But again, you can get it more easily with a magic item, a wide variety of spells/powers. Also, if you're ECL 12 or higher, Dragonborn or Raptorian get wings as a racial ability.

[Eldariel]

Penetrating Strike allows piercing stuff that would grant sneak attack immunity too, which is always convenient. Honestly tho, Swordsage works perfectly if you can roll it; you get various throws from Setting Sun with Dex-base along with Dex to damage and To Hit with two feats and the usual Strikes. Everything you want. You could roll Sneak Attack too but it's highly unnecessary. Simple Stormguard Warrior and Tiger Claw + Desert Wind would rock.

You could pick up Craven with token levels in Rogue; 3 levels would get you Penetrating Strike which would be worth it with Craven as it would allow Sneak Attacking people with item-based SA immunity (always convenient even if it doesn't come up).


Straight Rogue is also just fine as is Factotum. Scout/Ranger/Swift Hunter too. Pick what you want. I'd say you want one of the four of Swordsage, Rogue, Factotum or Swift Hunter tho. Those are very skilled, TWFable skill monkey types.

And I'll have to respectfully disagree with Person_Man: It greatly depends on campaign but in every campaign that involves outdoors fighting and has any risk of magic denial (dispels, AMFs, dead magic zones, etc.) a dedicated melee would do well to have wings. Lacking them means e.g. Dragons and spellcasters can just entirely ignore you after dispelling whatever is granting you flight. Of course they have tons of other defenses but without flight you simply cannot participate in those fights and magical sources are easy to deny. A character without ranged combat skills should always strive to have flight.

[CyMage]

My wife is currently playing a halfling Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Swordsage 2. Weapon Finesse, Shadowblade, etc. Same BAB and SA as a straight rogue. Loses a few skill points for a bit more HP and special abilities. Will most likely continue as a rogue with maybe one more level of SS later.