Building a Factotum

[Sophistemon]

I've been invited by a neighboring suite-mate to play in a 32-point buy, 2nd level game and I think that I would like to play a factotum, since it's a class that I've never played before, although I've heard some really good things.

I've already looked at the factotum handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0) but I was hoping that you guys might be willing to share some of your expertise with me as well.

For instance, I'd like some advice on which feats to take and when to take them. My potential DM has approved of The Demented One's excellent work (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2941485&postcount=1), so I have some very interesting options there. I'm also intrigued by skill tricks, since I'll likely have skill points to spare.

In addition to that, the handbook suggests playing either a human or a whisper gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3), and I'm having trouble choosing between them. My conundrum comes down to 'more skill points and an extra feat' versus 'bonuses to attack and defense in addition to making the Iajutsu Focus trick easier, thanks to access to the gnomish quickrazor'. Whisper gnomes are also eligible to learn the Trivial Knowledge feat, which I'd imagine can be pretty useful, and have some racial spells that they can cast, which are pretty interesting.

Anyhow, I was just hoping that you guys could help me design a decent factotum build. I'd like the wow the other people at the table, if possible.

[SurlySeraph]

Combining Cunning Artifice with Metamagic Spell Trigger (which lets you burn extra charges from a wand to apply metamagic) could produce pretty scary results for free if you had a few Fonts of Inspiration.

Cunning Master. Vorpal weapons.

I prefer Human (or sometimes Grey Elf) for Factotums for the feat and skill points. Go Gnome if you want to use the Quickrazor and Iajutsu Focus; and Trivial Knowledge is certainly nice with Knowledge Devotion. However, maxing Iajutsu Focus and all 6 combat Knowledges won't leave you with as many skill points left over as you'd probably like, so unless the party really needs more melee fighters I'd focus on Search, Spot, Disable Device, and other rogue-ish skills and put fairly low ranks in Knowledge.

You can also add a level or two in Swordsage or Warblade to be fightier.

Take Darkstalker, or the Whisper Gnome's ridiculous Hide checks won't be worth much.

Quick Reconnoiter is a quite handy feat for scouting with, especially if you can get very high bonuses to Spot and Listen.

[Azernak0]

Gnomes are also nice because they can access Underfoot Combat, which makes using Iajutsu Focus easier.

[Sophistemon]

SurlySeraph:
I think that I can get by well enough, melee-wise, with Knowledge Devotion. Those skill points are worth less than that feats that making the Iajutsu Focus spam attack a worthwhile tactic, anyway. And I plan on taking Nymph's Kiss at first level, for even more skill points, so it won't hurt as badly as it normally might.

Thanks for your suggestions! I'll keep them in mind.

Azernak0:
Eesh, ninja'd. As above, I think that I'll focus more on Knowledge Devotion than on Iajutsu Focus - although the latter does a lot of damage, Knowledge Devotion is cool in its own way, and leaves some more feats free for The Demented One's awesome stuff and, of course, Font of Inspiration.

[Azernak0]

You could always do both. Take Knowledge Devotion and just use Grease to flat-foot opponents. Most enemies do not have 5 ranks in Balance, so it's Iajutsu Focus Time.

[Sophistemon]

Azernak0:
I hadn't considered that. That spell would save me a feat, at least.

How many ranks should I put into each Knowledge skill? Are they worth maxing out? Is Iajutsu Focus?

[SurlySeraph]

Definitely max Iajutsu Focus. It'll probably take too many skill points to max all the Knowledges, and there are plenty of ways to boost knowledge anyway. Collector of Stories skill trick for +5 just costs 2 skill points the Scrolls of Uncertain Provenance (MiC) give you +5 to all Knowledge checks and only cost 8,000 gp, you could take a level in Dragonfire Adept for Draconic Knowledge for +6 if it fits your character concept, and you'll of course have a high Int bonus. More than 10 ranks or so is probably unnecessary.

[Sophistemon]

Does Collector of Stories really stack with Knowledge Devotion? Because, if so, wow. That would make it much more affordable. And I was already planning on getting a skill trick every level... very cool! Thanks for the suggestion.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Not sure if this helps or not but I did build a Factotum to level 20, it was never play-tested but it looks good in theory. You can take bits and pieces if you wish, or ignore it completely.

Race: Changeling
Factotum 2/Swashbuckler1/Factotum 6/Marshal 1/Chameleon 10 OR Factotum 9/Marshal 1/Chameleon 10

Feats:
1st: Able Learner. If flaws are allowed: Font of Inspiration, Master of Poisons (Retrain later for Font of Inspiration.)
3rd: Knowledge Devotion
6th: Imperious Command
9th: Font of Inspiration
12th: Planar Touchstone
15th: Extra Slot
18th: Font of Inspiration

Minor Aura: Motivate Intelligence


IIRC this build lets you get level 8 (Possibly 9) spell(s) via Planar touchstone and extra slot. Also you can pretty much do anything you want in terms of role in the party.

[Draz74]

Race-wise, if you don't prefer a certain race due to character concept, then I'd say go Whisper Gnome unless you intend to take Chameleon levels at some point.

You've seen the "Haberdash the Masked" build, right? Factotum with a level in Master of Masks, to make the Gnomish Quickrazor trick easier and pick up a lot of other crazy exotic weapon-based tricks, too?


Does Collector of Stories really stack with Knowledge Devotion? Because, if so, wow.

Strictly speaking, I don't think so. And as DM, I would also disallow it because it's just too darn good. The flavor is very compatible, though, so I could see a DM going the other way.

Oh, and if you're going for lots of skill tricks, you should probably take 3 levels in Uncanny Trickster. Lose one level of class features from your main class, gain three bonus skill tricks and the ability to use your favorite ones twice as often.

[Gametime]

Does Collector of Stories really stack with Knowledge Devotion? Because, if so, wow. That would make it much more affordable. And I was already planning on getting a skill trick every level... very cool! Thanks for the suggestion.

It depends. Knowledge Devotion says that you make a check and the check is based on the creature's type, "as described on page 78 of the Player's Handbook." If that means that the Knowledge skill-creature type correspondence is as described, then Collector of Stories wouldn't help because you aren't making a check to identify a monster or its vulnerabilities. (It would also mean that you make two Knowledge checks if you're using Devotion and the normal skill.)

If, on the other hand, the "as described" part refers to the check itself, then the only thing on page 78 which talks about Knowledge checks and monsters - the part about identifying them - must be how it works. If that's how you read it, then you make a single Knowledge check, benefiting from Collector of Stories, and then compare that one check to the two separate DCs of the creature's HD and Knowledge Devotion.

Either reading is valid, grammatically speaking. The bonus the skill check provides is probably bigger than you should get, using the second interpretation, but it's not so much so that it's unbalancing. You've spent two skill points to get a (slightly conditional) +1 bonus to attacks and damage; better than the market price, but nothing crazy.

[SurlySeraph]

Don't forget that as a skill trick, Collector of Stories only functions once per encounter. So if you're against, say, a humanoid riding an animal mount and summoning outsiders or magical beasts, you're only going to be getting the bonus for 1/3 of the enemies. It's definitely nice, but not egregiously powerful.

[JaronK]

In addition to that, the handbook suggests playing either a human or a whisper gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3), and I'm having trouble choosing between them. My conundrum comes down to 'more skill points and an extra feat' versus 'bonuses to attack and defense in addition to making the Iajutsu Focus trick easier, thanks to access to the gnomish quickrazor'. Whisper gnomes are also eligible to learn the Trivial Knowledge feat, which I'd imagine can be pretty useful, and have some racial spells that they can cast, which are pretty interesting.

Note that complete warrior lets you swap any one racial proficiency for any other racial weapon, so a Whispergnome can swap proficiency in Gnome Hooked Hammers for the Gnomish Quickrazor. Thus, if you were going to use Quickrazors anyway, the Whispergnome effectively gives you a bonus feat (EWP). That makes it far superior.

Also, if you're using Knowledge Devotion that's going to eat up a ton of your skill points. Don't expect to be a proper skillmonkey too, though you will have utility skills to play with (putting 1 point into each).

You need Darkstalker if you plan to use stealth. It's basically a feat tax.

JaronK

[Sophistemon]

Thanks for all the help, everyone. I really appreciate the input.

I think that, contrary to my previous statement, I'm going to focus on Iajutsu Focus instead of on Knowledge Devotion. At this point it's a matter of getting the most out of my skill points.

JaronK:
Hey, I saw your contributions to the handbook. Thanks for posting here, too.

I'm aware of the Complete Warrior rule, which does make the whisper gnome a really good choice for a factotum that wants to use Iajutsu Focus a lot, but I don't know if the loss of an extra feat and those additional skill points are worth it. I could probably be convinced, however. I've no prior experience with factotums, personally. Treading new water, here.

[JaronK]

I'm aware of the Complete Warrior rule, which does make the whisper gnome a really good choice for a factotum that wants to use Iajutsu Focus a lot, but I don't know if the loss of an extra feat and those additional skill points are worth it.

You don't lose a feat if you would have taken EWP: Quickrazor anyway. But if not, it becomes more of an issue. And if you're taking Knowledge Devotion, you've really hurt your skill points a ton anyway.

JaronK

[Person_Man]

Here's Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633), which Draz74 referenced. Doesn't really kick in until level 6 though, so it might not be much help to you as a 2nd level Factotum.

How high will this campaign actually go?

If it's a short campaign and you're starting at level 2, then you're much better off starting with a few levels of Totemist, Incarnate, Binder, or Warblade. While balanced, Factotum really doesn't have that much umph behind it for the first few levels. Brains Over Brawn is nice at 3rd level, but it's that great in a point buy game, where your Str, Dex, and Int will all be mediocre.

At ECL 5 you can spam Alter Self with Arcane Dilettante, giving you a wide variety of mobility and buff options. If your DM actually allows you to use it on a regular basis, it also allows you to put less points into Str and Dex in favor or Int and Wis (assuming you can survive to this level).

At ECL 6 you can take Master of Masks and a dozen options opens up with Haberdash. Note that Haberdash relies heavily on opposed checks (Str + Int + size), and thus does better with a medium sized race.

At ECL 8, you get Cunning Surge. This gives you a huge action advantage on the first turn, as it lets you cast twice. There's also several action advantage Feats related to spellcasting, such as Mobile Spellcasting, Obtain Familiar, and Winged Warrior, which synergize very well with this level of Factotum.

At ECL 13 you hit the sweet spot for a Factotum/Warblade/Chameleon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163930) build. 4th level maneuvers, 4th level divine spells (from any list! Paladin, Blackguard, Ranger, PrC), 4th level arcane spells, and Int to a ton of different checks.

And if you're actually going to ECL 19+, then again strait Factotum would be a better choice for access to the uber Cunning Brilliance.

[Sophistemon]

JaronK:
So my choices are: lose a feat if I want to use Iajutsu Focus, or lose a ton of skills if I want to use Knowledge Devotion. Of course, Knowledge Devotion costs a feat, too... so I guess the net loss is less if I go with Iajutsu Focus.

But even then, if I were to use the human's racial bonus feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency, I'd still have more skill points than a gnome that just swapped his hook-hammer for a quickrazor.

Person Man:
Thanks for the link, and for the descriptions. I really appreciate it.

[JaronK]

Yes, then it's skill points vs bonus to con and dex, huge bonuses to hide and move silently (which you'd have to spend points on as a human just to catch up with), and access to trivial knowledge.

The big issue with Knowledge Devotion is that it makes you no longer a skill monkey. As such, you have to decide what you want... are you a stealthy fighty type, or are you a skillmonkey who's also an assassin? If the former, go Knowledge Devotion + Iajuitsu Focus. If the latter, go Iajuitsu Focus only. The third option is archer (but still not skillmonkey), in which case go Knowledge Devotion only.

JaronK

[Sophistemon]

Definitely the latter.

Would it be pertinent to play a whisper gnome and spend my first-level feat on Nymph's Kiss? That would bump me to a human's amount of skill points, I believe.

EDIT:
Have we taken into account that the quickrazor does middling damage at best, and that in order to use it effectively I'd need to use Iajutsu Focus every round, meaning that they'd need to be flatfooted every round?

[Fouredged Sword]

If I remember right, that is what the quickrazor does when you draw it.

[term1nally s1ck]

There are a few skill tricks that will make an enemy flat-footed, as would the confound the big folk feat, as would grease, or Marbles (Arms and Equipment guide.)

Also, if you're Hiding, they're flat-footed anyway, at least for the first attack.

[Sophistemon]

If I remember right, that is what the quickrazor does when you draw it.
The quickrazor does not, to my knowledge, make them flat-footed.


There are a few skill tricks that will make an enemy flat-footed, as would the confound the big folk feat, as would grease, or Marbles (Arms and Equipment guide.)

Also, if you're Hiding, they're flat-footed anyway, at least for the first attack.
Confound the Big Folk only works on enemies that are at least two size categories larger - which would be Large, since gnomes are Small.

I'd planned on buying some skill tricks. I'll look into those. Grease has already been mentioned, but thanks for reminding me. I'll look into marbles. Similar to caltrops, I'd imagine?

Since I'd be playing a sneaky sort of factotum, I think, Hiding would be part and parcel.

[Greenish]

If I remember right, that is what the quickrazor does when you draw it.I have heard rumours that claim that not every gnomish quickrazor in existence is enchanted with Blurstrike, but have of course dismissed them as obviously false.

[Sophistemon]

I have heard rumours that claim that not every gnomish quickrazor in existence is enchanted with Blurstrike, but have of course dismissed them as obviously false.
While that's certainly something to consider, I'm afraid that we're starting at level two, which means that it's going to have to wait. Thanks for the suggestion.