[D&D3.X] Incantrix, which school to bar?

[Warlawk]

So I am having trouble making this choice.

The character is an elven wizard with substitution level for 1st and the domain wizard ACF.

I am building toward the Incantrix class but having a tough time settling on a school to bar. I am focusing mostly on God style of play with heavy debuffs and control, with some party buffing as backup.

My first thought and most common leaning is to bar Evocation since there are not a lot of *must have* spells for that playstyle there and there are other ways to get some access to evo such as shadow evocation and such.

Just wanted to see what the playground thinks about this and if anyone has any points of view that I may have missed on this subject.

[The Glyphstone]

Evocation, definitely. If you've got access to Incantatrix, you've probably got access to Spell Compendium, and Conjuration spells can do everything Evocation can and more. Plus, if you really really need a specific Evocation spell, there's the Shadow lines as you mentioned.

[Galsiah]

For my Incantatrix build I am going to use for a game, I chose to ban Necromancy. Yeah, I know, Necromancy has the cool drain levels type spells that can do some serious damage, but it really doesn't have anything in the way of control or buffing. Now obviously with the more splat you add to the mix, the better the Necromancy spells you can get, but this is true with all the schools. Just my two cp.

[The Glyphstone]

For my Incantatrix build I am going to use for a game, I chose to ban Necromancy. Yeah, I know, Necromancy has the cool drain levels type spells that can do some serious damage, but it really doesn't have anything in the way of control or buffing. Now obviously with the more splat you add to the mix, the better the Necromancy spells you can get, but this is true with all the schools. Just my two cp.

All the schools except Evocation. There's only so many different ways you can deal 1d6/level damage, and the school runs out pretty fast. Hence why it's probably the most economical to ban, since the only thing it does that can't be imitated is Contingency, and Craft Contingent Spell takes that away too.

[AshDesert]

All the schools except Evocation. There's only so many different ways you can deal 1d6/level damage, and the school runs out pretty fast. Hence why it's probably the most economical to ban, since the only thing it does that can't be imitated is Contingency, and Craft Contingent Spell takes that away too.

Agreed, Contingency is the only spell that's missed from Evocation by God. Necromancy has a ton of great debuffs, especially if you're good at ranged touch attacks (which I'm guessing you are as an elf).

If you can't bear to be without Contingency and you don't have access to the Craft Contingent Spell feat, you might also consider Enchantment. Unless you're the face of the group, Enchantment doesn't offer a whole lot. Don't get me wrong, it has a lot of neat tricks in it, but I've never found myself preparing an Enchantment spell that couldn't easily be replaced by another spell (again, don't get rid of Enchantment if you are the party face).

[SurlySeraph]

Yep, Evocation. Banning Enchantment or Necromancy is also viable, but Evocation is the least useful school.

EDIT: Ninja'd with more detail.

[FMArthur]

In Evocation's defense, Wind Wall, Wall of Force and Forcecage can provide some of the best battlefield control around.

Shadow Evocation is sort of nice but these spells in particular are multiple spell levels below the Shadow Evocation or Greater Shadow Evocation needed to cast them (wind wall four levels too late? wall of force six levels too late? Does this sound like a proper substitute?) and instead of "you lose, no save", they become "Will save every time they interact with it negates its effect", AKA garbage for the higher-level spell slots you're using to cast them.

[Warlawk]

In Evocation's defense, Wind Wall, Wall of Force and Forcecage can provide some of the best battlefield control around.


Yeah, contingency and a few nice gems like this was enough to make me think twice about banning evo, and just wanted to get some outside opinions. Going to have to see if I can find a good listing by level. Treantmonks post with comparisons of spells is great, but it is broken down by school and spread over many pages. A great resource, but tough to look at each level and compare options if a specific school is cut from the picture. And paging through like 5+ different books isn't much more complete of a picture, heh.

[faceroll]

There's a thread floating around on how evocation isn't actually that bad of a school, and there are some very worthwhile spells in it.

[Boci]

There's a thread floating around on how evocation isn't actually that bad of a school, and there are some very worthwhile spells in it.

The only one I know made by a poster with a good reputation is Treantmonklvl20's analysis of God's tools: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869246/Treantmonks_guide_to_Evocation_Spells:_Gods_tools

Basically:


Praise for evocation: Evocation contains several strong spells in the BC field as well as some nice Multiple Threat spells. The image as a “Blasting spells only” school is clearly a myth. Although there isn’t a lot of utility within the school – a few spells stand out as winners in the utility field (Force Ladder, Greater floating disk, Contingency, Sending).

Weaknesses of the school: I found very few spells of levels 8 or 9 I thought were worth the level, I also found a lot of redundancy (how many “push the opponent away” spells does a mage need at the ready?).

[Defiant]

I went focused specialist conjurer incantatrix and banned evocation, enchantment, illusion, and necromancy :smallcool:

[Boci]

I went focused specialist conjurer incantatrix and banned evocation, enchantment, illusion, and necromancy :smallcool:

Wouldn't it have been better to go focust specialist adjurer and retain illusion?

[Draz74]

Incantatrix is the one that says, "You can still use spells from your banned school if you already knew them, you just can't learn more." Right?

If so, totally drop Necromancy. Just wait to enter the PrC until you already know Enervation. Necromancy has nothing at Level 5+ that you'll really miss.

[faceroll]

Incantatrix is the one that says, "You can still use spells from your banned school if you already knew them, you just can't learn more." Right?

If so, totally drop Necromancy. Just wait to enter the PrC until you already know Enervation. Necromancy has nothing at Level 5+ that you'll really miss.

Right, but Avasculate is totally OP, and Avascular Mass is totally OP and AWESOME.

[Acanous]

I usually ban Evocation. If you REALLY need something from Evo, there's always that Faerun feat that lets you learn a single spell from a prohibited school. (Forcecage)

[LordBlades]

You can write spells in your spellbook that you can't cast yet. So writhe forcecage, wall of force and contingency, then go incantatrix and ban evocation.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I find that while Enchantment has wonderful effects, the whole mind affecting business makes it a very ban-worthy school, especially at higher levels.

[Kurald Galain]

Perhaps surprisingly, Abjuration is easy to drop. The only thing you'll really miss from there is Dispel Magic, which the party druid, cleric, or warlock can cover for.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Perhaps surprisingly, Abjuration is easy to drop. The only thing you'll really miss from there is Dispel Magic, which the party druid, cleric, or warlock can cover for.Incantatrix can't ban Abjuration. You also miss a host of wonderful arcane-only defensive spells and late-game offense.

[Darrin]

Is Dragon Magazine material available?

Diversified Casting feat (Dragon #325): Pick three spells from a banned school and add them to your spell list.

This takes the sting out of evocation (contingency, sending, explosive runes) or necromancy (enervation, avasculate, necrotic skull bomb).

[Eldan]

IF you really need certain Evocation spells, Shadow Evocation and it's improved versions can handle most of that.

[Psyren]

I find that while Enchantment has wonderful effects, the whole mind affecting business makes it a very ban-worthy school, especially at higher levels.

This. I actually rank Evocation higher.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, it depends highly on which level or levels you're going to be playing at. The notion that Enchantment is all-too-easily blocked by mental-immunity is simply not true at low levels. Then again, the notion that Evocation can be completely duplicated by the Shadow Evocation spell is really not true at low levels, either.

[Psyren]

At low levels enchantment has other problems, notably creature-type mismatch and language barriers. Charm Person is useless against Ogres, and Suggestion is useless against Troglodytes (unless perhaps you're a wizard.)

[Defiant]

Wouldn't it have been better to go focust specialist adjurer and retain illusion?

I didn't feel like putting too much emphasis on optimization in this respect. I wanted to be focused specialist definitely, and to be either conjurer or transmuter. I don't think I could get 3 spells per level for abjuration filled easily.

[valadil]

Incantatrix is the one that says, "You can still use spells from your banned school if you already knew them, you just can't learn more." Right?

If so, totally drop Necromancy. Just wait to enter the PrC until you already know Enervation. Necromancy has nothing at Level 5+ that you'll really miss.

Depends on the version. IIRC the 3.0 version (which is the less broken of the two) let you use already learned spells. The 3.5 one did not.

And yes, I agree that if this is the case, banning Necro after taking the good low level spells is an awesome choice. Otherwise, drop Evocation.

[FMArthur]

IF you really need certain Evocation spells, Shadow Evocation and it's improved versions can handle most of that.

Very, very poorly. Using higher level slots. Which, for the worthwhile Evocation spells, take an extra four or six Wizard levels to access. The only situation I can think of Shadow Evocation and its greater counterpart being at all worthwhile is Contingency, which is replicated earlier and better with a feat. If you're controlling the battlefield with it, Shadow Evocation's added clauses turn them into pure ineffective garbage. If you're blasting with it, what are you doing, man?

Real Evocations actually have some merit to them. Shadow Evocation is entirely worthless; don't spread misinformation. If you'd played a Wizard, banned Evocation and actually tried to substitute this line of spells (of which there are only two, at 5th level and 8th level) for any good Evocation spells you'd know how useless it is.

Yes, Evocation is easy to ban because good spells just aren't common enough on its list. But they do exist and you are giving up something when you ban it, it's not just a free pass where you trade nothing for something.

[Ernir]

On Craft Contingent Spell:

Do people actually use that one in-game? :smalleek:
The feat is utterly bat**** crazy. Having one, singular contingent spell is good enough to make people think twice about banning Evocation, that's how good the spell is.
CCS is better, by a multiplier equal to your level. And your party members serve as an additional multiplier.

[Defiant]

On Craft Contingent Spell:

Do people actually use that one in-game? :smalleek:
The feat is utterly bat**** crazy. Having one, singular contingent spell is good enough to make people think twice about banning Evocation, that's how good the spell is.
CCS is better, by a multiplier equal to your level. And your party members serve as an additional multiplier.

And lose XP with each use. No thanks. I'd rather not be 2 or 3 levels below party level.

[Ernir]

And lose XP with each use. No thanks. I'd rather not be 2 or 3 levels below party level.

The XP cost for a contingent spell is 4 x caster level x spell level. Unoptimized. :smallconfused:

Don't think you'll be breaking the XP bank any time soon. Especially considering the fact that lower level characters get more XP, and that you'll be saving on resurrections. :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

Very, very poorly. Using higher level slots. Which, for the worthwhile Evocation spells, take an extra four or six Wizard levels to access. The only situation I can think of Shadow Evocation and its greater counterpart being at all worthwhile is Contingency, which is replicated earlier and better with a feat. If you're controlling the battlefield with it, Shadow Evocation's added clauses turn them into pure ineffective garbage. If you're blasting with it, what are you doing, man?

Real Evocations actually have some merit to them. Shadow Evocation is entirely worthless; don't spread misinformation. If you'd played a Wizard, banned Evocation and actually tried to substitute this line of spells (of which there are only two, at 5th level and 8th level) for any good Evocation spells you'd know how useless it is.

Yes, Evocation is easy to ban because good spells just aren't common enough on its list. But they do exist and you are giving up something when you ban it, it's not just a free pass where you trade nothing for something.

Unless your a Shadowcraft Gnome who is also a Noctumancer and uses Flood of Shadows to gain empowerment on all of her shadow spells and uses the Powerful Image ability to have 100% real Shadow Spells. So with one level 6 spell you get completely real and empowered shadow spells for free, and you only have to prepare Greater Shadow Evocation rather then a bunch of different evocation spells. It gets even better when you add the Shadow Craft ability Shadow Illusion which allows you to cast things like Major Image as if it were both Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation; with its normal abilities still possible as well. And they get the +20% real effect from the Shadow Illusion class ability, and the bonuses from Flood of Shadow.

Your right that they aren't normally as good as straight evocation, but with a little optimizing they are actually better.

[Kurald Galain]

Unless your a Shadowcraft Gnome who is also a Noctumancer and uses Flood of Shadows to gain empowerment on all of her shadow spells and uses the Powerful Image ability to have 100% real Shadow Spells.

Yes, because DMs commonly allow that particular bit of cheese... :smallamused:

[Optimator]

I always choose enchantment for my banned school.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes, because DMs commonly allow that particular bit of cheese... :smallamused:

If a DM is allowing the Shadowcraft Mage-grade cheese in the first place, it's unlikely that adding Noctumancer cheese makes the situation any worse.

[Tvtyrant]

Yes, because DMs commonly allow that particular bit of cheese... :smallamused:

? A prestige class? Its not nearly as broken as core is; it grants you some bonus blasting. I'm not even using the cheesey "more real then real" tricks.

Edit: I mean I am honestly stumped at what is considered cheesy here.

[FMArthur]

Most Wizards aren't Shadowcraft Mages. It's a prestige class that replaces and enhances shadow-school illusions, which are ordinarily complete rubbish.

[Defiant]

The XP cost for a contingent spell is 4 x caster level x spell level. Unoptimized. :smallconfused:

Don't think you'll be breaking the XP bank any time soon. Especially considering the fact that lower level characters get more XP, and that you'll be saving on resurrections. :smalltongue:

So if I want a 5th level spell contingency, that's close to 200xp out the window. That's like 1/4 or 1/3 of an encounter's XP gains. And assuming that you actually use it as it was intended, to put more than just one contingency, you'll be bleeding XP out the wazoo.

Better to stay at party level and get those juicy high-level spells faster, than to barely even make XP on encounters.

Don't get me wrong, Craft Contingent Spell is awesome conceptually, just like animated objects work great for a non-party wizard. But it just doesn't fit well within the party dynamics. (Though, I guess, you being a wizard and all, a few levels behind won't hurt that much)

[Gralamin]

So if I want a 5th level spell contingency, that's close to 200xp out the window. That's like 1/4 or 1/3 of an encounter's XP gains. And assuming that you actually use it as it was intended, to put more than just one contingency, you'll be bleeding XP out the wazoo.

Better to stay at party level and get those juicy high-level spells faster, than to barely even make XP on encounters.

Don't get me wrong, Craft Contingent Spell is awesome conceptually, just like animated objects work great for a non-party wizard. But it just doesn't fit well within the party dynamics. (Though, I guess, you being a wizard and all, a few levels behind won't hurt that much)

Statistically, if you always craft so you are a single level behind the party, you will catch up rather quickly with a lot of bonus loot (Due to lower level characters getting more XP). This is the idea behind the term "XP is a river". It works best with artificers, who can give up XP and loot to get spells the Wizard cannot even cast yet, which is usually a much larger performance gain.