Bayaz Vs Kellhus

[pita]

I've recently been on a "read what's been recommended to you" binge, and I've found two book series with great manipulators. Now, for spoiler's sake, we're allowing spoilers in this thread for The First Law trilogy and the Prince of Nothing trilogy to go unmarked. Anything beyond that, such as The Judging Eye or Best Served Cold will have to remain ignored.
I did this match-up in my head, and, at first, Kellhus won easily, considering where he is at the end of Prince of Nothing. Where Bayaz has taken over a kingdom by building it from scratch, Kellhus has made himself a god and has fanatics following him. Magical abilities I would say they're equal. Kellhus has mastered all of the magic of his world, while Bayaz has a ton of terrifying demonic powers. I don't know which is stronger. Persuasively, Kellhus makes Bayaz look like an idiot. Bayaz had to convince someone who hated him to do his bidding by torturing him (Jezal), and another by showing how easily he could kill him (Glokta). He also lost the loyalty of someone who was asking no questions and didn't want to know more than he absolutely had to (Logen).
However, now I'm wondering, how would Bayaz fare against Kellhus, assuming what happened in PON didn't happen? If Kellhus were to find himself in Adua in the beginning of PON instead of where he was?
Bayaz has the advantage of being ridiculously established, having servants everywhere, including a ninja cannibal wizard shapeshifter. He's also powerful enough to make all of that pale, personally. However, he can't expend too much power, otherwise Khalul may find that opportunity and attack him.
Kellhus has nothing but himself, but himself is very powerful. Amazing swordsman, but also an amazing manipulator with no ego, pretensions, or morals. He can make a skeptic into a devoted follower overnight, and, in the book series, could only find two characters he couldn't turn into his devotees. One was completely insane and knew all of his tricks (Cnaiur), the other was schooled by the first and had many many many reasons to hate him (Conphas).
I want to know, if Kellhus wanted to take over Adua, could he do it? What are the opinions on the board?

[Smiling Knight]

Kellhus is in a whole 'nuther weight class. Maybe a few thousand years ago Bayaz would have had a chance, but now? He was only able to pull off what he did in The Last Argument of Kings thanks to a very favorable situation.

Manipulation-wise, Bayaz has always had the option of "do what I say or I explode you." He won't have that option with Kellhus. And Kellhus can push anybody's buttons. He would have a rebellion against Bayaz in the Union or have hijacked Gurkhul before you can say "holy overpowered characters Batman."

Like Lord of the Rings vs D&D, when high-magic goes against low-magic, the latter gets curb-stomped.

[pita]

On the other hand, all it takes for Bayaz to remove Kellhus from the equation is to send Yoru overnight, or just blast him to pieces himself. He's got super demonic powers, after the events of The First Law. The question I'm thinking is will Bayaz figure out that Kellhus is a threat before Kellhus can override him? Because Kellhus can have two approaches. If he can figure out that Bayaz rules the Union, he could try to become Bayaz's apprentice (like he did with Akka), or become a new savior for the people. But if he becomes a savior for the people, then Bayaz will just remove him from the equation. As strong as Kellhus is, I doubt he can defeat Sulfur.

[Smiling Knight]

Bayaz does not have super demonic powers; the trick with the Seed was a one-off thing. And I doubt Kellhus is going to allow himself to be ganked in the middle of the night, with his super-prediction and sense powers.

Edit- well, not a one-off thing, but the power of the seed itself, which required a great deal of preparation, without which the demons are not under control.

[pita]

Bayaz does not have super demonic powers; the trick with the Seed was a one-off thing. And I doubt Kellhus is going to allow himself to be ganked in the middle of the night, with his super-prediction and sense powers.

Edit- well, not a one-off thing, but the power of the seed itself, which required a great deal of preparation, without which the demons are not under control.
I seem to remember, at the end of the book, Bayaz being younger and healthier, and Ferro realizing how much she's been changed by the Seed's power. I think it gave him some form of super demonic powers, no?

[Smiling Knight]

My reasoning for why he looked young is this:

1. Magic is weakening because the Other Side is getting more and more separated from the world as time goes on.

2. The Seed was a big old conduit to the other side.

Therefore, all magic (High Art?) everywhere was revived, at least a little bit. We'd need a larger sample size though. Someone phone Zacharius and ask him if his Art is now stronger.

Also, Bayaz was very careful never to touch the Seed himself; that's what he needed Ferro for.

[DaedalusMkV]

Bayaz is a Magnificent Bastard, there's no doubt, but Kellhus is just overpowered. All he needs to do is see your face to know all your thoughts and fears, unless you're completely insane or have so much practice hiding your emotions that you literally do not react emotionally to anything, which for Bayaz is definitely not the case. Then we get into magical power; that nifty trick Bayaz pulled off with the Seed? That's a pretty average show of force for a Mandate sorceror, and Kellhus is more powerful than most all of them by a significant margin. Hell, Kellhus is so smart that he can accurately predict the future down to minute details and well in advance and his ability to manipulate people verges on mind control. But that's not all! Kellhus is also a peerless general, an unmatchable administrator and a nearly unbeatable swordsman.

Frankly, we're dealing with a powerful, ancient and very, very smart wizard versus a guy who defines the term Overpowered in every possible aspect of his character. Kellhus is basically the most game-breaking Villain Sue I've ever seen. It's just no contest, at the end of the day.

[chiasaur11]

Still would bet on Vetinari against both of them.

[Smiling Knight]

Deadalus I think Bayaz is a little too short on the "likable" column to be a magnificent bastard; otherwise I agree with everything you said.

Chiasaur: Much as I love Vetinari, I think someone as smart as he is would know to run the gently caress away from nasty pieces of work. Unlike most villains on the Disk, they don't play by genre rules.