[3.5] Melee Based Fighter Question

[oriontyruse]

Hey guys. I am not sure where to begin i'll do my best. I'm currently playing an epic game. here's the thing, My character has been built mostly as a caster bane (melee classes and prestiges only) i have found twinks and tricks for pretty much everything i need for it; the only problem i'm currently facing is a way to negate or bypass the epic seed reflect. The only thing that I could find that would work isn't that great which is Anti-magic field through a certain item; but even that still has a 50% chance of success. what i've been trying to look for is a way to again bypass it or completely negate it,through either a unknown melee prestige, feat, or even an item. I have searched through pretty much every wotc D&D 3.5 book but to no avail. After having no success in finding anything that would resemble it i thought i would ask here. Any input would be greatly appreciated. and thanks in advance.

[Incanur]

I don't know of any way to do what you're asking. Seed: Reflect is one of the things that makes epic combat so bonkers. Judging by Epic Spell Reflection, it would be trivial to make a permanent melee and/or ranged reflection spell. I didn't go there in the mid-twenties campaign I ran, but even a dozen or so reflections represents a major barrier. I can only suggest a buddy with an epic dispel.

I've vowed to never run epic 3.5 D&D again.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

So, assuming you're not running core only, but throwing an antimagic field up on yourself is just asking for at least three ways of hurt. I'm also curious as to how you're actually "solving" some of these issues considering the works of this man. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9186526&postcount=83)

[oriontyruse]

thanks for the answers so far, basically i have most of the feats for attack of opportunity's( the only one i'm lacking is Robilars Gambit). Pierce magical concealment, pierce magical protection, Mage slayer. The best attack of opportunity feats i have that i'll mention are Occult Opportunist which allows me to gain an attack of opportunity whenever someone Dismisses a Spell, Directs / Redirects an Active Spell, casts a Quickened or Swift Spell, makes a Turn / Rebuke attempt. Supernatural instincts whenever a caster casts a supernatural spell. Pretty much anything the caster does or does not do in a round will give me an attack of opportunity with me thats 6 attacks in total; from duel-wielding greatswords. the only thing i'm stuck on is the Epic seed reflect.

[Glimbur]

This entire plan requires having the caster within your threatened range. This is far from certain.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

As this is epic level, some people may just take the one attack damage and make the concentration check, assuming they're even in melee range at this point.

[Incanur]

Running epic in the first place assumes a lot things. Truly paranoid casters/parties only adventure through astral projection at this point. Sometimes they take Ignore Material Components, grab a rod of excellent magic, and just cast simulacrum as much as they can for a few years. Or perhaps the gate -> wish cycle.

[oriontyruse]

just a friendly bump

[Hawk7915]

It sounds like you've done a pretty thorough search; a way for a non-caster to easily defeat this may honestly not exist. Most people here, as you may have noticed (myself included), believe that the very fact that you are apparently a 21+ level Fighter using Monkey Grip and Oversized Two-weapon Fighting and that you are alive, useful, and able to even get adjacent to spellcasters to be pretty brain-warping :smalltongue:. Here's the solutions I can think of...

1) Snag an item of Greater Dispel Magic. It seems to me the odds are better for dispelling this, as compared to the Antimagic Field.

2) By default, the Seed only defends against one type of attack. You could always swap to a bow. If that bow is a Greater Dispelling Bow, you might even bust their reflect while dealing damage.

3) Epic Seed: Reflect only reflects 5 attacks total (a single round) by default. It's not optimal, sure, but you could just full-on power attack while fighting defensively and boasting a decent AC (40+) to ensure that none of the attacks hit you. By default the cast time is a full minute, so once the reflect is toast you can carry on as needed. Risky if you roll that "lucky" natural 20 though, heh.

[oriontyruse]

It sounds like you've done a pretty thorough search; a way for a non-caster to easily defeat this may honestly not exist. Most people here, as you may have noticed (myself included), believe that the very fact that you are apparently a 21+ level Fighter using Monkey Grip and Oversized Two-weapon Fighting and that you are alive, useful, and able to even get adjacent to spellcasters to be pretty brain-warping :smalltongue:. Here's the solutions I can think of...

1) Snag an item of Greater Dispel Magic. It seems to me the odds are better for dispelling this, as compared to the Antimagic Field.

2) By default, the Seed only defends against one type of attack. You could always swap to a bow. If that bow is a Greater Dispelling Bow, you might even bust their reflect while dealing damage.

3) Epic Seed: Reflect only reflects 5 attacks total (a single round) by default. It's not optimal, sure, but you could just full-on power attack while fighting defensively and boasting a decent AC (40+) to ensure that none of the attacks hit you. By default the cast time is a full minute, so once the reflect is toast you can carry on as needed. Risky if you roll that "lucky" natural 20 though, heh.

thanks for the feedback. I'll have to try that one with the bow. because with a bow i would do hardly any damage. and all my feats and classes increase my strength for swords. my character isn't exactly a fighter, i play a warblade in a consistent game that my friends and DM have been playing for about 12 years now. my ecl is 68, and my biggest problem is that this characters caster level is too high for me to realistically dispel (ESPECIALLY with a Greater Dispel, which caps at +20)
as for the epic spell, the character has applied the ad-hoc modified that allows him to recast the spell as a swift action, so once I spend my turn successfully breaking it down, he just recasts it and proceeds to beat my face in with magic. I know that he will eventually run out of epic memorizations, but I just cannot seem to stay alive for that many rounds while waiting for him to run out.

[Mongoose87]

One way is to make lots of touch attacks, so those are reflected. Once the reflect is expended, you make resume regular, harmful attacks.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Your bigger problem will be reaching your opponent, as he is likely flying, superior invisible, displaced, with Greater Mirror Image active at all times.

Even harder will be keeping him put as he has Contingency Celerity upon being the target of an attack or negative effect, which means even if you go first, he still goes first.

Still harder when you can effectively have Foresight up all day long as well. With things like Nerveskitter and toys, you aren't going to be going first. Ever.

And that's just pre-epic.

If he's playing with Seeds, he doesn't even need to be on the same plane as you to cause your life essence to be snuffed out with a sufficently obnoxious DC (110ish?) that you won't succeed.

Hitting him is a worthy goal. However, he's just as interested in NOT being hit than you do, and he's got a *MUCH* bigger toybox to play with.

[oriontyruse]

Your bigger problem will be reaching your opponent, as he is likely flying, superior invisible, displaced, with Greater Mirror Image active at all times.

Even harder will be keeping him put as he has Contingency Celerity upon being the target of an attack or negative effect, which means even if you go first, he still goes first.

Still harder when you can effectively have Foresight up all day long as well. With things like Nerveskitter and toys, you aren't going to be going first. Ever.

And that's just pre-epic.

If he's playing with Seeds, he doesn't even need to be on the same plane as you to cause your life essence to be snuffed out with a sufficently obnoxious DC (110ish?) that you won't succeed.

Hitting him is a worthy goal. However, he's just as interested in NOT being hit than you do, and he's got a *MUCH* bigger toybox to play with.

as for mirror images my character has innately True Seeing and Pierce Magical conceealment feat and he can fly himself. and again through a feat his teleportations are nullified as it allows my character hijack them and travel with him. i do have a spell like ability and can be quickened as a Greater teleport so reach or flying is not an issue for me. still unfortunetly the only trouble i seem to be having is the reflect seed :smallsigh:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

as for mirror images my character has innately True Seeing and Pierce Magical conceealment feat and he can fly himself. and again through a feat his teleportations are nullified as it allows my character hijack them and travel with him. i do have a spell like ability and can be quickened as a Greater teleport so reach or flying is not an issue for me. still unfortunetly the only trouble i seem to be having is the reflect seed :smallsigh:

Umm... you still don't get it.

First off, he goes first. So if he knows you're built to ignoring most spells, he'll do something along the lines of 'Sudden Maximize Time Stop. Cloudkill, Forcecage, Dimension Lock, drink coffee.'. And then point and laugh as you slowly die of unresistable con damage every round.

Or, he he doesn't want to bother with you, it's simply Plane Shift to the plane he created with Genesis.

He doesn't need teleportation. He hasn't since level 15.

Second, if he wants to get real rude, he simply drops five delayed blast fireballs on you as a swift action. Or simply drops an Explosive Runes bomb at your feet and sets it off with a dispel magic.

All this before you are allowed to take an action.

You're worried about trying to hit him. You should be worried about how you're going to be able to be given the opportunity to have an action in the first place.

And all this is STILL pre-epic. This isn't even getting into the seed that lets you scry and cast spells from a different plane, letting him snipe you with impunity from his own pocket dimension he created.

[oriontyruse]

Umm... you still don't get it.

First off, he goes first. So if he knows you're built to ignoring most spells, he'll do something along the lines of 'Sudden Maximize Time Stop. Cloudkill, Forcecage, Dimension Lock, drink coffee.'. And then point and laugh as you slowly die of unresistable con damage every round.

Or, he he doesn't want to bother with you, it's simply Plane Shift to the plane he created with Genesis.

He doesn't need teleportation. He hasn't since level 15.

Second, if he wants to get real rude, he simply drops five delayed blast fireballs on you as a swift action. Or simply drops an Explosive Runes bomb at your feet and sets it off with a dispel magic.

All this before you are allowed to take an action.

You're worried about trying to hit him. You should be worried about how you're going to be able to be given the opportunity to have an action in the first place.

And all this is STILL pre-epic. This isn't even getting into the seed that lets you scry and cast spells from a different plane, letting him snipe you with impunity from his own pocket dimension he created.

I am assuming i will go second i do have an extremely high initiative.
I am immune to all types of elemental damage and force effects due to my ring and class levels. My DM has ruled that Timestop can be stopped through a spell resistence check (as per the suggestion in the epic level handguide). I am immune to death effects (soulfire armor enchant). I do have a wide array immunities to much to describe in a forum. through several prestiges and Templates. and I cannot be scryed upon My character has a permement Mind blank spell (which this one describes as such for scrying, which i cannot even lower it myself it states in the prestige class.) and as for force walls I can simply walk through as if they weren't there. and I am immune to ability damage or drain. The only way he would be able to get me with spells is a very limited way such as searing fireball or something. oh and I do not have any spells at all on my character that can be dispelled.
Oh on a side note I can most casters or at least give them a run for there money (we tried this in spar matches against other PC casters) Believe me I have done my research on this and made this build for my character since level 1 He is a very tough and versatile melee based fighter. Through the fights of spar matches with other pc characters I have nearly perfected every outcome and gave my character the means to counter them such as the templates that gives him wings as a minor ability along with several other interesting things as an example. Casters are not omnipotent where only other casters take them on (Melee based fighters just have to think outside the box). My character has killed quite a few casters that equal his level through the Anti-magic field but that also severly weakens himself as well though.

[Myth]

How does your character get past Celerity? Also beating SR is trivial. Casting Timestop as Su (Dweomerkeeper for example) will still kill you. You min-maxed your character and pitted it versus unoptimized NPC (and by the looks of it, unoptimized PC) casters. A well built Epic caster is impossible to overcome without equal resources.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I am assuming i will go second i do have an extremely high initiative.
I am immune to all types of elemental damage and force effects due to my ring and class levels. My DM has ruled that Timestop can be stopped through a spell resistence check (as per the suggestion in the epic level handguide). I am immune to death effects (soulfire armor enchant). I do have a wide array immunities to much to describe in a forum. through several prestiges and Templates. and I cannot be scryed upon My character has a permement Mind blank spell (which this one describes as such for scrying, which i cannot even lower it myself it states in the prestige class.) and as for force walls I can simply walk through as if they weren't there. and I am immune to ability damage or drain. The only way he would be able to get me with spells is a very limited way such as searing fireball or something. oh and I do not have any spells at all on my character that can be dispelled.
Oh on a side note I can most casters or at least give them a run for there money (we tried this in spar matches against other PC casters) Believe me I have done my research on this and made this build for my character since level 1 He is a very tough and versatile melee based fighter. Through the fights of spar matches with other pc characters I have nearly perfected every outcome and gave my character the means to counter them such as the templates that gives him wings as a minor ability along with several other interesting things as an example. Casters are not omnipotent where only other casters take them on (Melee based fighters just have to think outside the box). My character has killed quite a few casters that equal his level through the Anti-magic field but that also severly weakens himself as well though.

Epic Seeds bust mind blank no problem. I suppose if you use homebrew (nothing is immune to Force or can walk through force effects by RAW) and template-stacking that no reasonable GM would allow, you might start to get close, but you're still having one basic problem...

This is an Epic Caster you are talking about. He doesn't need to leave his pocket plane to completely obliterate you. He can simply cast Locate Object on, for example, your sword (which is NOT mind-blanked), then start dropping epic-level spells down on you with impunity.

Epic magic can and does regularly bust immunities granted by magic or magic items. It's just that powerful. If nothing else, he can use an Epic version of MDJ to destroy your items, THEN proceed to curbstomp.

[oriontyruse]

Epic Seeds bust mind blank no problem. I suppose if you use homebrew (nothing is immune to Force or can walk through force effects by RAW) and template-stacking that no reasonable GM would allow, you might start to get close, but you're still having one basic problem...

This is an Epic Caster you are talking about. He doesn't need to leave his pocket plane to completely obliterate you. He can simply cast Locate Object on, for example, your sword (which is NOT mind-blanked), then start dropping epic-level spells down on you with impunity.

Epic magic can and does regularly bust immunities granted by magic or magic items. It's just that powerful. If nothing else, he can use an Epic version of MDJ to destroy your items, THEN proceed to curbstomp.

Ok i'm trying not to be a dink here but you have gone off topic by so much. the main question I had was weather or not it is possible to negate or bypass an epic seed reflect weather through a prestige, class, item, or feat. I understand your narrow minded view against fighters beating a caster, I am not trying to be a dink again but wow. I have done my homework and research;Regardless of scrying I don't care about or anything else the caster might do or not do. I simply wanted to know about bypassing or negating the epic seed reflect; not to start a huge forum page about what my character can or can not do.

[olentu]

Ok i'm trying not to be a dink here but you have gone off topic by so much. the main question I had was weather or not it is possible to negate or bypass an epic seed reflect weather through a prestige, class, item, or feat. I understand your narrow minded view against fighters beating a caster, I am not trying to be a dink again but wow. I have done my homework and research;Regardless of scrying I don't care about or anything else the caster might do or not do. I simply wanted to know about bypassing or negating the epic seed reflect; not to start a huge forum page about what my character can or can not do.

Why not just ignore it. I mean it is not like the casters are choosing to kill you so just ignore them and steal their stuff.

[absolmorph]

Ok i'm trying not to be a dink here but you have gone off topic by so much. the main question I had was weather or not it is possible to negate or bypass an epic seed reflect weather through a prestige, class, item, or feat. I understand your narrow minded view against fighters beating a caster, I am not trying to be a dink again but wow. I have done my homework and research;Regardless of scrying I don't care about or anything else the caster might do or not do. I simply wanted to know about bypassing or negating the epic seed reflect; not to start a huge forum page about what my character can or can not do.
Your question was already answered. Quite simply, there's not a way to bet past it aside from just whacking away at them.
Shneekey was pointing out that casters have ways to get around all of you "immunities". He listed those ways. Fighters have no way to counter those things. This is not a "narrow minded view", it's just what the classes are capable of.
Calling him narrow minded for saying so is, most likely, being a "dink" (what is a dink, anyway?). Try harder. Don't insult people for seeing all the problems with your character and claims and stating them.
With about 10 minutes, I was able to make a level 23 character that could reflect your first 14 attacks with a standard action casting time, with its minimum Spellcraft check as the working point. I'm not even a good optimizer.

[Keld Denar]

Use Stormguard Warrior. Channeling the Storm allows you to make touch attacks that do 0 damage. Each one you succeed in gives you +4 to hit and damage. They'll trigger reflect, since they are sucessful attack rolls, but you'll have no chance of accidentally gibing yourself.

You'll need the book: Tome of Battle. Assuming you have no levels in Warblade, would require 4 feats (Martial Study (Any Iron Heart maneuver), Martial Study (Any Iron Heart stance), Iron Heart Aura, and finally Stormguard Warrior).

Steep, but probably worth it in this case?

[ericgrau]

Wait, wait, exactly how many foes are casting epic spells and how many of those include reflect? Because I think the answer should be 1 by any reasonable kind of probability. If not then kindly ask your DM why the universe is so bent against melee attacks that it is filled with epic casters using one of their rare and expensive epic spells to negate it. If you don't get a good answer, roll up a different character and either laugh at all the poor casters that wasted one of their epic spells on such a thing which is now useless or start complaining about why suddenly every caster in the world somehow changed their epic spells. I mean, if the DM is reasonable, it must be a BBEG because your chances of faces any specific subsection of any seed in a campaign is next to nil, so I suspect you must already have a foe in mind who has already demonstrated this spell.

If not, don't bother. Go hit something else for that fight, assuming it even comes up.

If you are talking about a specific BBEG or similar, then you want some kind of one off solution. I wouldn't waste a feat or PrC on it. For that I think some kind of alternate attack option is best. Like say quickened true strike(s) via a UMD'd scroll or etc. followed by a bunch of ridiculously expensive and buffed arrows. Or some expendable spell item to go boom but only a couple times. It may seem expensive for something you'll never have again but (a) it's a major foe you're hitting (I hope) and (b) it's still far cheaper than feats, permanent items, PrCs, which you'll use only once.

EDIT: Oh, is this is some kind of pvp? How did he spend so much on an epic spell after seeing your build? Can you switch builds? I'm confused how exactly he's matching the epic spell to your fighting style fairly.

[Togo]

{Scrubbed}

The reflect seed is presumably set up to repel melee attacks, so just get something else to attack first. A figurine of wonderous power, a pet, a flock of starlings, a jar of ants, anything will do. Technically speaking a trap would do too, if it was the kind that targeted an attack. Alternatively, try grapplling, since a touch attack won't do any damage to you, and you should be able to just forgo the grapple check. Or try power attacking as suggested earlier.

Note that the attacks don't have to hit to be reflected, just targeted, so wild flailing by something totally unable to hit or hurt the wizard will do just fine.

[Godskook]

Ok i'm trying not to be a dink here but you have gone off topic by so much. the main question I had was weather or not it is possible to negate or bypass an epic seed reflect weather through a prestige, class, item, or feat. I understand your narrow minded view against fighters beating a caster, I am not trying to be a dink again but wow. I have done my homework and research;Regardless of scrying I don't care about or anything else the caster might do or not do. I simply wanted to know about bypassing or negating the epic seed reflect; not to start a huge forum page about what my character can or can not do.

Y'know, Shneeky is pretty famous around here for his open-minded ability to optimize *ANYTHING*, including the tier 6 CW Samurai to the point where he could survive Test of Spite combat.(Which, it should be noted, is more melee-friendly than RAW)

[Eldonauran]

Use Stormguard Warrior. Channeling the Storm allows you to make touch attacks that do 0 damage. Each one you succeed in gives you +4 to hit and damage. They'll trigger reflect, since they are sucessful attack rolls, but you'll have no chance of accidentally gibing yourself.

You'll need the book: Tome of Battle. Assuming you have no levels in Warblade, would require 4 feats (Martial Study (Any Iron Heart maneuver), Martial Study (Any Iron Heart stance), Iron Heart Aura, and finally Stormguard Warrior).

Steep, but probably worth it in this case?

This is good advice. Go with it. :smallwink:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

{Scrub the original, scrub the quote}Just because it takes little to no imagination to break epic doesn't mean the "wizard fanboys" around here lack imagination, {Scrubbed}

THAT SAID, the OP is obviously not facing wizards of such broken caliber. This could be for a variety of reasons; perhaps the DM would throw the DMG at any player that tried to Coatl loop their way into creating stars at will. Perhaps the other players just have a distaste for the uninteresting game of immunity-probing that epic tends to be and so tone things down. In any event, the best defense of the wizard that is actually in play is reflect. Any wizard with better tricks is irrelevant to the topic at hand, especially if the OP can't do anything about it. With that in mind, I'll third Keld's Stormguard Warrior suggestion. If you combine it with the moderate level of action abuse and multiple attacks from ToB, you should be past the caster's reflect seed far before the end of your round of attacks.

[oriontyruse]

yeah sorry I had a rough day at work and was frustrated. just thought he was trying to deter from the answer or something like that and trying to make me understand what I already knew. thanks for the help I do appreciate it, and i'll check out that stormgaurd thing.

[oriontyruse]

EDIT: Oh, is this is some kind of pvp? How did he spend so much on an epic spell after seeing your build? Can you switch builds? I'm confused how exactly he's matching the epic spell to your fighting style fairly.

it was just something in general that my DM asked me to find out and suggested to come here, seeing as how my character has been built for Caster Bane (that would make my build even better against casters if there was someone out there that knew of something.) He was unsure himself but said it was a long shot that someone here might know

[ericgrau]

Oic. Well ya, if anyone knows it it'll be someone here :smallbiggrin:. But my point was that you might never use it, or maybe only once now that it's in your DM's head. And therefore it'd be most affordable to handle it with expendables. If he uses it more than that he's picking on you because it may very well be possible that the number of times DMs (or PCs) have used it ever could be counted on your fingers.

But up to you. If you can do it and still get some other use out of the PrC/feat you may want to do it for coolness factor.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, let's just use a hypothetical exercise in which you have a nearly brain-dead (perhaps idiot savant) epic level wizard who allows you attacks within range, and you are purely needing to get rid of the epic Reflect seed, here's how ya do it:

First off, know thine enemy:
If the reflect seed is used against a melee attack or ranged attack, five such attacks are automatically reflected back on the original attacker. For each additional attack reflected, increase the Spellcraft DC by +4. The reflected attack rebounds on the attacker using the same attack roll. Once the allotted attacks are reflected, the spell using the reflect seed is expended.

This is, I think, the relevant problem at hand.

However, your problem is this: Spellcraft DC is a base 27. Because he doesn't need to increase range or duration or anything, that's where he starts. Even a caster with a negative int mod on their Spellcraft check is going to make this. Which means, if he is anything short of completely asinine, he's gonna beef it up with as many extra attacks as he can cram DC into.

So first off, you don't know how many attacks you're gonna get back in your face, but it's at least 5. That's gonna cost ya nearly a full round, unless you're built for Gatling Attacking, which means the seed did it's job and delayed you a round to make you regret ever rolling your character.

However, the weakness is that it's *either* melee *OR* ranged. So unless he blew two castings, one for melee and one for ranged, he's going to be vulnerable to one or the other.

The other way is to do something like a d2 crusader to have an arbitrary number of attacks at piddling damage to blow through reflect and Cuisinart him. But that exploits infinite loops, and you probably don't want to do something like that.

Now then, there's a prestige class in the same book that Stormguard Warrior is in. The prestige class is called Bloodstorm Blade. At first level, they give you the ability to throw anything, and the ability to imbue anything with the Returning trait until the end of the round. At 2nd level, they let you treat a thrown weapon as a melee attack, and you may use any and all feats associated with melee attacks with your thrown attacks. However, it's still a ranged attack, which means if he only used the Reflect seed on melee attacks, it's gonna completely ignore it.

So basically, with a two-level splash, you get to make a full attack at range with all your usual melee WTFPWN combos you want to use. And ignore the Reflect seed. With a four level dip, you can do it more than once an encounter.

Will that work for you?

[oriontyruse]

Okay, let's just use a hypothetical exercise in which you have a nearly brain-dead (perhaps idiot savant) epic level wizard who allows you attacks within range, and you are purely needing to get rid of the epic Reflect seed, here's how ya do it:

First off, know thine enemy:

This is, I think, the relevant problem at hand.

However, your problem is this: Spellcraft DC is a base 27. Because he doesn't need to increase range or duration or anything, that's where he starts. Even a caster with a negative int mod on their Spellcraft check is going to make this. Which means, if he is anything short of completely asinine, he's gonna beef it up with as many extra attacks as he can cram DC into.

So first off, you don't know how many attacks you're gonna get back in your face, but it's at least 5. That's gonna cost ya nearly a full round, unless you're built for Gatling Attacking, which means the seed did it's job and delayed you a round to make you regret ever rolling your character.

However, the weakness is that it's *either* melee *OR* ranged. So unless he blew two castings, one for melee and one for ranged, he's going to be vulnerable to one or the other.

The other way is to do something like a d2 crusader to have an arbitrary number of attacks at piddling damage to blow through reflect and Cuisinart him. But that exploits infinite loops, and you probably don't want to do something like that.

Now then, there's a prestige class in the same book that Stormguard Warrior is in. The prestige class is called Bloodstorm Blade. At first level, they give you the ability to throw anything, and the ability to imbue anything with the Returning trait until the end of the round. At 2nd level, they let you treat a thrown weapon as a melee attack, and you may use any and all feats associated with melee attacks with your thrown attacks. However, it's still a ranged attack, which means if he only used the Reflect seed on melee attacks, it's gonna completely ignore it.

So basically, with a two-level splash, you get to make a full attack at range with all your usual melee WTFPWN combos you want to use. And ignore the Reflect seed. With a four level dip, you can do it more than once an encounter.

Will that work for you?

hmmm thanks i'll check it out and see if it works. again sorry for being a pain earlier.

[Glimbur]

It's also helpful to pick up the ranks in spellcraft to identify a spell. It's only DC 25, which is trivial at your level. I couldn't find any special rules which make epic spells harder to identify, and knowing exactly what your opponent just cast could make the difference between life or death.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's also helpful to pick up the ranks in spellcraft to identify a spell. It's only DC 25, which is trivial at your level. I couldn't find any special rules which make epic spells harder to identify, and knowing exactly what your opponent just cast could make the difference between life or death.

That's not exactly true...

here's what spellcrat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) can figure out...

Some that might be applicable:

15 + spell level When casting detect magic, determine the school of magic involved in the aura of a single item or creature you can see. (If the aura is not a spell effect, the DC is 15 + one-half caster level.) No action required.

Okay, so that lets you figure out what school the spell is, assuming you have Detect Magic up

20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.

Again, you need to be able to see or detect the effect to identify the spell. However, Epic is considered to be a 10th level spell, so DC is 30

Another way to get rid of the Reflect seed is as follows:


A lucky nonepic spellcaster casting greater dispel magic might be able to dispel an epic spell. The game mechanics do not change, and epic spells do not occupy any privileged position allowing them to resist being dispelled other than their presumably high caster level. Likewise, epic spells using the dispel seed can dispel nonepic spells. Such epic spells use the same game mechanic: The check to dispel is 1d20 + a specified number (usually dispeller’s level), and the DC is 11 + the spellcaster’s level.

So if you had a way to cast a sufficiently high spellcaster equivalent dispel, it might work

[Glimbur]

I don't understand why the DC 15+ spell level usage of spellcraft which does "Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry." won't work here. I agree that RAMS it shouldn't be that easy to identify a custom spell, but an epic spell is only level 10.

Disjunction is probably a better idea than a boosted dispel, but any sensible epic caster should have wards against both dispel and disjunction.

[Roderick_BR]

Use a small sap (PHB weapon, deals non-letal damage), and attack the guy to expend his spell. Maybe have a minion or summored creature (several small ones) to attack him first, making it waste it's protection before your attack.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't understand why the DC 15+ spell level usage of spellcraft which does "Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry." won't work here. I agree that RAMS it shouldn't be that easy to identify a custom spell, but an epic spell is only level 10.

Because the spell is not being cast. It has already been cast hours ago, before combat ever started.

[Glimbur]

Because the spell is not being cast. It has already been cast hours ago, before combat ever started.

Ok. I was assuming sub-optimal play where Epic casters cast epic spells in combat. Your assumption seems more likely... and might even be supported by the OP, I'm too lazy to check.