I Wanna Be A Demon! (...or a Devil)

[TechnOkami]

The title says it all.

How can I be one without having LA or Racial Hit Die eat away at my class levels?

[Flickerdart]

Lesser Tieflings, regular Tieflings with LA buyoff or a Tiefling that didn't take the racial class level are the closest you'll come.

[Scoot]

How about a Devil? (http://www.amazon.com/Devils-Player-Guide-d20-Diabolical/dp/1932201459)

Besides that, there are a few progression in Savage Species, which may be better than flat RHD and LA.

[Galsiah]

I do believe that there were also different rituals in Savage Species that you could go through to become a different race, so maybe start as a Tiefling and then go through a ritual to become a demon. They cost XP, but by the time you do it the XP you spend will be relatively small.

[nyarlathotep]

The hellbred from Fiendish Codex II

A soul that was redeemed as it was on the verge of being drawn into hell.

The lesser tiefling from Player's Guide to Faerun (possibly in a different book)

The distant descendant of a demon or devil.

[LOTRfan]

How about the Kilzecru (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150413), diabolical fiends that hide amongst mortals and slowly corrupt them? LA +1, but pretty cool. Its homebrew, but its also the only pure blooded devil race I am aware of. It has some Eberron fluff, but that's easy to change.

[DeltaEmil]

An alternative is to be a high-level magic user and to shapechange/polymorph/magically transform yourself into one, but that's probably not what you wish for...

You could, depending on what class you are playing, refluff yourself into being a demon, even although rules-wise, you'd be a human/dwarf/halfling/one-of-many-million-elven-subrace (best chance, probably)/gnome/half-orc/whatever-character.

Taking abyssal heritor feats from Fiendish Codex 1 (Hordes of the Abyss) might reinforce the idea that you're playing a demon, when doing the refluffing-route.

[Tvtyrant]

There is a homebrew section that deals in making monster levels so you don't need LA. You don't get the whole thing up front but its pretty good.

(PS Go Marilith.)

[Flickerdart]

There's also a crappy PrC in CArc, Acolyte of the Skin, that grafts a demon's skin over their own, if you want to go that route.

[TechnOkami]

...anything with wings?

[gbprime]

Besides that, there are a few progression in Savage Species, which may be better than flat RHD and LA.

The Hamatula (Barbed Devil) in that book is actually a rather capable progression. You're done at level 14, with 6 levels left for something like Fighter to further increase your killing ability. And Greater Teleport at will ain't half shabby!

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC Tieflings (and Aasimars) could take a feat from some Forgotten Realms book to gain infernal (or celestial) looking wings.

[TechnOkami]

IIRC Tieflings (and Aasimars) could take a feat from some Forgotten Realms book to gain infernal (or celestial) looking wings.

That sounds plausible...

[Dusk Eclipse]

That sounds plausible...

Someone more versed on the realms might provide a better answer, appart from a flying demon what is your character concept?

[TechnOkami]

Someone more versed on the realms might provide a better answer, appart from a flying demon what is your character concept?

Well, originally it was a balor paladin, then it became something like a balor holy warrior, then it became balor/devil/demon Crusader + Cleric + Ruby Knight Vindicator, and now it's sounding like Tiefling (w/ wings) Crusader + Cleric + Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Oh wait, Tieflings have a hit to Cha... arrgh.

[Tvtyrant]

...You want a Balor without LA? This had better be like level 45 Epic and the Balor's powers are worthless.

There is a Balor class in that homebrew section, let me see if I can find it.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7967157&postcount=58
There ya go!

[TechnOkami]

...You want a Balor without LA? This had better be like level 45 Epic and the Balor's powers are worthless.

There is a Balor class in that homebrew section, let me see if I can find it.

Yeah, I sort of figured out just how bad it would be to be a Balor, but the Balor class? That sounds interesting.

[Runestar]

There is a fiend class in the tome of fiends 3rd party book, IIRC.

Google for it, there should be a free wiki copy.

[Akal Saris]

There's also the option of playing a character who gets a fiend through class features (Thaumaturgist, for example, or Malconvoker, or Zhentarim Skylord), and you just focus on RPing mostly as the fiend.

[Kelb_Panthera]

IIRC Tieflings (and Aasimars) could take a feat from some Forgotten Realms book to gain infernal (or celestial) looking wings.

Outsider wings from Races of Faerun.

[hamishspence]

Cambion in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits is technically a demon- and playable. I think it has a fairly high LA though- and maybe some RHD.

[Darrin]

Phylactery of Change (11200 GP, A&EG p. 135). All-day polymorph up to 7HD.

Fiendring (30000 GP, Lost Empires of Faerun p. 152). Polymorph into any demon/devil/fiendish creature available via SM I/II/III/IV, *and* you get all their (Ex), (Su), and SLA abilities.

[Amiel]

You could also play as one right off the bat (as it were) perhaps?
Although this may mean a campaign configured to such an undertaking - this'll involve intrigue-laden campaigns full of covert actions, outright ascendancy of position through the Blood War, being a proponent of your portfolio and disseminating it across the mortal coil, et al.
Really delve into the character and personality of the demon and/or devil.

[GodGoblin]

You could look into the Diaboli from the Dragon compendium, theyre actually from the plane of shadow but the have horns, hooves, arrow tipped tails, purple skin and pointy teeth. They are also outsiders so dependng on the wording of Outsider wings they might qualify too

[hamishspence]

They're from the Plane of Nightmares- which borders the Ethereal Plane, the Plane of Dreams, and is very close to the Far Realm.

They're Outsiders with the Chaotic subtype- but not the Evil subtype. Indeed, they are noticably Good-leaning.

So- they're not Fiends.

[Starbuck_II]

Savage Species has a few.

1) Hamatula:
They get decent spell-likes at 2nd level.
2) Imp:
Tiny ands have polymoprh.
3) Kytons:
Spiked Chain action, immune cold, fear gaze, 8th level get Regeneration
4) Succubus
Charismatic, great spell-likes, Energy drain comes at 7th,
5) Vrock:
Other than Mirror Image not that great for a while.

[GodGoblin]

@hamishspence- I know but a bit of minor re fluffing and it could be useful, people were suggesting re fluffing elves earlier so this is much less of a stretch and lets face it they do have the classic demon 'look'

[Maryring]

Well, originally it was a balor paladin, then it became something like a balor holy warrior, then it became balor/devil/demon Crusader + Cleric + Ruby Knight Vindicator, and now it's sounding like Tiefling (w/ wings) Crusader + Cleric + Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Oh wait, Tieflings have a hit to Cha... arrgh.

Yeah. There's quite a few differences between being a Balor and a Tiefling. :P

Honestly, your best bet is to find a game that is based around being demons. Or Devils. There have been a few games based around being demons. I remember a game where I got to play what was essentially a colossal balor monk. Lots of fun.

[hamishspence]

@hamishspence- I know but a bit of minor re fluffing and it could be useful, people were suggesting re fluffing elves earlier so this is much less of a stretch and lets face it they do have the classic demon 'look'

True. As they are, people in the Material plane treat them as if they were demons when they meet them- so the concept can work even without the slight restatting (to add the [evil] subtype and change their home plane).

[Psyren]

Fiend-blooded (HoH) could work if you want to be a sorcerer. You don't actually become a fiend, but you come close. You also gain additional spells known and don't lose CL until the capstone, should you choose to take it.

[Tvtyrant]

If you max cha and then take the first five levels of the succubus class you get some good SLA's and +5 charisma and 50ft. flying movement. Then take sorc the rest; you will actually have higher DC's then a sorc of your level would and you get some nice extra abilities. You lose some casting unfortunately, but hey you get a permanent sanctuary spell!

You could also use this by having a charisma of only normal, then succubus to boost it to high, and have a medium wisdom so you can take Arcane Disciple and get the healing Domain, which would make you can arcane caster who heals.

[azrael90]

Fey'ri from Races of Faerun would be good, I think. They're a demon-elf hybrid, they look quite fiendishly (wings, tail, fiery red eyes), have a bunch of nice SLAs (alter self at will) and only +2/+3 LA (depending on selected abilities).

[hamishspence]

I don't get it. Why would you want to be a member of a race with no moral depth whatsoever? As a fiend, you don't have the option to be good, or even neutral. You might enjoy playing evil, but at least for most races it's a choice, not something built-in to every model.

Unless, as mentioned, you're a cambion (which is only Usually Evil, despite being technically a fiend.)

As mentioned in other threads, fiends have chosen to be Good before (succubus paladin).

Indeed, since the Redemption through Diplomacy rules in BoED don't work on them, and arguably neither does Sanctify the Wicked (the Sanctified template explicitly states it cannot be given to Outsiders with Evil subtype)

then it could be said, that the only normal way for a fiend to become nonevil is if it chooses to- magical or diplomatic means of changing it's alignment mostly don't work (excepting possibly Helm of Opposite Alignment)

[Grelna the Blue]

Unless, as mentioned, you're a cambion (which is only Usually Evil, despite being technically a fiend.)

As mentioned in other threads, fiends have chosen to be Good before (succubus paladin).

Indeed, since the Redemption through Diplomacy rules in BoED don't work on them, and arguably neither does Sanctify the Wicked (the Sanctified template explicitly states it cannot be given to Outsiders with Evil subtype)

then it could be said, that the only normal way for a fiend to become nonevil is if it chooses to- magical or diplomatic means of changing it's alignment mostly don't work (excepting possibly Helm of Opposite Alignment)

Yeah, I actually deleted my post because I suddenly thought, "Wait, why am I criticising someone's choice of character type? He asked for help on how to do it, not whether it should be done."

Regarding Sanctify the Wicked, there's some text I think you overlooked:
"Sanctified creature" is an acquired template that can be added to any evil creature except for outsiders with the evil subtype (referred to hereafter as "base creature"). The sanctified creature retains its creature type. Outsiders gain the good subtype and lose any of the following subtypes: baatezu (devil), tanar'ri (demon), and yugoloth. If the base creature had the fiendish creature template, it loses the template and all special attacks and special qualities granted by the template. It uses all the base creature's statistics or special abilities except as noted here.
I believe the text you excerpted meant that outsiders with the evil subtype cannot have the sanctified creature template because they lose the evil subtype as soon as it is applied.

[Starbuck_II]

If you max cha and then take the first five levels of the succubus class you get some good SLA's and +5 charisma and 50ft. flying movement. Then take sorc the rest; you will actually have higher DC's then a sorc of your level would and you get some nice extra abilities. You lose some casting unfortunately, but hey you get a permanent sanctuary spell!

You could also use this by having a charisma of only normal, then succubus to boost it to high, and have a medium wisdom so you can take Arcane Disciple and get the healing Domain, which would make you can arcane caster who heals.

You can't multiclass out of Succubus class if you mean the savage species one. You can only multiclass once finished (all levels).

[awa]

i would second the barbed devil you wont beat a wizard at the end of the day but, you will have a good ac particularly if you take mithral chain shirt (no armor check penalty means proficiency is unnecessary. you will be a decent fighter your loss in bab will be offset by increased strength you will be okay at skills because of the 8+int skill points. your at will powers also give you a lot more options than most martial characters.

you will fail in high opp games but it is unusually viable considering its racial hit dice/la

(home with book new info)
you have all good saves so by level 14 you have a +6 bonus to your saves as opposed to the regular +9 or +4 a stat boosts to wisdom and con will further reduce these penalties

your hit points will suffer over the long haul but +12 natural armor damage reduction and spell resistance will help offset this.

it loses 5 base attack bonus but has a +6 strength so is still a decent brawler.

all in all its one of the few good racial progression classes.

[Runestar]

There are precedents of risen fiends in various books. In planescape, I think one of the bartenders is a neutral demon (marilith)? Wotc posted an article about a succubus paladin. An old issue of dragon had a neutral astra deva and cornugon working together to establish a faction.

However, it seems more reasonable for them to tend towards neutral, rather than becoming good outright.

[Kelb_Panthera]

@hamishspence- I know but a bit of minor re fluffing and it could be useful, people were suggesting re fluffing elves earlier so this is much less of a stretch and lets face it they do have the classic demon 'look'

If you're cool with a bit of re-fluff, you might consider the Fey'ri of Races of Faerun. Demonic looking outsiders with the native sub-type. Existing fluff is that they're planetouched descended from elves and demons. The official LA of Fey'ri is +3 I think, but that's high for what they get, you might be able to get a reasonable DM to drop that to +2.

[umbrapolaris]

in Fiendish codex 1 , you may use an adapted rule of "possessed creature" with the transformer option, the balor transform your body into his own, regaining all his powers. adapt the rules allowing you to use your class abilities and your soul still can communicate with the demon.

also , it can give some good opportunities of Roleplaying. a bit like Dr jekyll in "the league of extraordinary gentlemen"

[Kelb_Panthera]

Okay, follow me here. BoED has two spells of interest. One renders a possessing demon incapable of leaving its host. The other renders the possessing creature unable to control the host. Pick whatever race you want, get yourself possessed via planar binding. Trap the booger in your body with the one spell, and after he's -almost- done transforming you, you hit him with the other, rendering him unable to finish the process. I strongly suggest that if you're going to take this route, you get those spells made into permanent magic items.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I just want to mention that if you have access to Dragon, the Xvart is literally an LA-2 character. Which, I know, why. I mean, that's not a demon at all.

But with -2 LA you can take half-fiend template for a net total of +2. And if you picked a fiend-like class (warlock?) you'd have a very flavorful character. And if you took maybe the dragonfire adept, your fire breathing powers could feel very much like something a small devil would have. Just a thought.

[awa]

that is a typo the xvart are not la-2

[hamishspence]

Yeah, I actually deleted my post because I suddenly thought, "Wait, why am I criticising someone's choice of character type? He asked for help on how to do it, not whether it should be done."

Regarding Sanctify the Wicked, there's some text I think you overlooked:
I believe the text you excerpted meant that outsiders with the evil subtype cannot have the sanctified creature template because they lose the evil subtype as soon as it is applied.

It's the "can be applied to any creature except for outsiders with the evil subtype" that comes across as-

"they cannot take the template as they are- they have to lose the Evil subtype before STW can be applied"

(Since the template doesn't say that they lose the subtype if they take it- but simply that the template cannot be applied to those creatures)

And there are other magical means of removing the Evil subtype- the rituals from Savage Species.

This might explain how Yugoloth, Baatezu, Tanar'ri, etc can be removed- the Evil subtype has to be removed first before the spell can be cast on the being.
At least, assuming it works exactly as written.

Alternatively, the spell might work, the alignment might change, but the template simply doesn't get applied.

It's hard to say which.

[mabriss lethe]

a refluffed raptoran with either vile/abyssal heritor feats might fit the bill.