undead characters

[big teej]

I plan on playing one soon, and I had a few questions to make sure I was going to do this right.


1) ALL hit die change to d12 correct? so all class HD are d12 as well as any racial hit die (should any exist)

2) what do I add to my d12 when rolling hit points at level up? (nothing? since I have no score?)

3) how do I determine my fortitude save without a constitution score? is it based soley on class?


(its a human with the bone template if that helps)

[RandomLunatic]

1: Yes

2: Yes. Undead characters tend to be suprisingly fragile for this reason.

3: Yes. Fortunately, you are immune to most of the things that require Fort saves. Those that do affect you, however...(My group calls Disintegrate Superior Disrupt Undead for this reason.)

[Boci]

If you're going cleric/walker of the waste you can gaincha to hitpoints. Not sure if there are any other ways for a PC to get this. Improved toughness will get you +1hp per level. Also, if you're a wizard with d4 hitpoints you effectively get a con of 16, which is good at lower levels, and at higher levels just means you need to devote a bit more resources to defense.

[faceroll]

You can squeeze out some really borked stuff using backstory, if you feel so inclined, and your undead was created.

A corpsecrafting level 8+ dread necromancer who made you on a desecrated altar can give you +10 ft to speed, +4 enhancement bonus to str & dex, and his charisma +4 in HP to each of your HD. You can easily be gaining 1d12+15 HP each level. Also, you can get some cold damage on natural weapons, turn resistance, and natural armor.

You don't have to go overboard like this, of course. A specialist necromancer wizard with an ACF, a desecrated area or altar, or a corpsecrafter can all give you +2 HP/level.

[Boci]

You can squeeze out some really borked stuff using backstory, if you feel so inclined, and your undead was created.

A corpsecrafting level 8+ dread necromancer who made you on a desecrated altar can give you +10 ft to speed, +4 enhancement bonus to str & dex, and his charisma +4 in HP to each of your HD. You can easily be gaining 1d12+15 HP each level. Also, you can get some cold damage on natural weapons, turn resistance, and natural armor.

You don't have to go overboard like this, of course. A specialist necromancer wizard with an ACF, a desecrated area or altar, or a corpsecrafter can all give you +2 HP/level.

Depends on what undead you are playing doesn't it? Because if you're using the necropolitant template then by rare I don't think you were created by any single caster.

[Silva Stormrage]

You can squeeze out some really borked stuff using backstory, if you feel so inclined, and your undead was created.

A corpsecrafting level 8+ dread necromancer who made you on a desecrated altar can give you +10 ft to speed, +4 enhancement bonus to str & dex, and his charisma +4 in HP to each of your HD. You can easily be gaining 1d12+15 HP each level. Also, you can get some cold damage on natural weapons, turn resistance, and natural armor.

You don't have to go overboard like this, of course. A specialist necromancer wizard with an ACF, a desecrated area or altar, or a corpsecrafter can all give you +2 HP/level.

Actually if you really want to use cheese have it be created by a 8th level dread necro with corpse crafter on a desecrated altar dedicated to nerrull (doubles the bonus) with one level dip in necromancer wizard with the variant.

All the HP bonuses stack because its untyped so its
+2 +2 + 4 + 2 = 10 hp/level


Actually contributing to solving the health issue is to ask you dm if you can simply use what pathfinder undead use. They have D8 HD and charisma to HP instead of 12HD and no bonus to HP. They don't have immunity to critical strikes though. If anyone who plays Pathfinder notices I said something wrong correct me I don't play it, I have only used their templates for some bosses :smalltongue:.

[big teej]

oh dear gods what have I unleashed? :smalltongue:

haha, okay lets see here....


1: Yes

2: Yes. Undead characters tend to be suprisingly fragile for this reason.

3: Yes. Fortunately, you are immune to most of the things that require Fort saves. Those that do affect you, however...(My group calls Disintegrate Superior Disrupt Undead for this reason.)

thankyou very much I wanted to make sure I understood this correctly before I started filling out my whole charactersheet (I stopped after rolling stats basically)




If you're going cleric/walker of the waste you can gaincha to hitpoints. Not sure if there are any other ways for a PC to get this. Improved toughness will get you +1hp per level. Also, if you're a wizard with d4 hitpoints you effectively get a con of 16, which is good at lower levels, and at higher levels just means you need to devote a bit more resources to defense.

the build is a Cleric/knight
sub-optimal? most likely
fun to play? for me it is :smallbiggrin:
besides, I need a way of healing myself without giving away that I'm dead.

I'm kinda banking on those 'undead immunities' to help me out with my saves.

-rolls die- "Made my save"
other player: how?
me: high con score ^_^





You can squeeze out some really borked stuff using backstory, if you feel so inclined, and your undead was created.
snip


the backstory is that some nobody necromancer wanted to try and pull the stunt Tsuiko threatned to pull with :miko: 's corpse

unfortunately for him, he screwed up his spell, raising me successfully (hence the bone template) but I was not under his control, so I slew him. and encased myself in full body armour so that none would know that I am dead, I carry on my fight against evil, because I cannot destroy myself (personal ethic) so I will fight on until something destroys me, be it some evil I cannot overcome, or those who would call me friend were I still clothed in flesh.


hence the knight and cleric levels (still trying to pick a diety/domains though)

I LOVE the knight class... just love it, the feel, the abilities, the d12 hit die (yes I know thats redundant as an undead) and the cleric levels for keeping my bony butt going without the party finding out I'm dead.



party member: how come you never take your armour off?
me: I slew a necromancer, and he cursed me, that I may never take off my armour.
party member: well... how come you don't starve?
me: well.... due to the wording of his death-curse, my armour sustains me, hence "never" taking it off.

*any other questions you think would arrise are more than welcome, I need to have as many excuses prepared in advance as I can.






on an unrelated note.... is the fact that half of the PLAYERS (none of the characters) will know I'm undead a bad thing? :smallfrown:

[Boci]

the build is a Cleric/knight
sub-optimal? most likely
fun to play? for me it is :smallbiggrin:
besides, I need a way of healing myself without giving away that I'm dead.

I'm kinda banking on those 'undead immunities' to help me out with my saves.

Problem is you can't play something if it dies, and a melee character with a con of 12/14 is going to be in trouble unless the DM pulls his punches. Also, crusader/cleric/RKV is pretty much the same concept but more synergy if ToB is an option.

[faceroll]

Go for creation on a desecrated altar. It's like playing a warblade with 14 con. Multiclassing cleric/knight gets you good fort saves, which will make up for your lack of a con score, a bit.

[big teej]

Problem is you can't play something if it dies, and a melee character with a con of 12/14 is going to be in trouble unless the DM pulls his punches. Also, crusader/cleric/RKV is pretty much the same concept but more synergy if ToB is an option.

anything not on the SRD or hardcopy that we possess is banned

resources are
DMG
BOVD
BOED
masters of the wild
races of stone
dieties and demigods
arms and equpiment guide
cityscape

I'm not looking to cheese this out or anything, I just want to make sure I"m creating my undead character correctly

(and then I'll be back making sure I've applied the tempalte AND multi-classed correctly)

I'm also happy with my backstory as is, access to a dedicate unholy place doesn't strike me as being within the means of a low-level necromancer.

[Boci]

anything not on the SRD or hardcopy that we possess is banned

resources are
DMG
BOVD
BOED
masters of the wild
races of stone
dieties and demigods
arms and equpiment guide
cityscape

I'm not looking to cheese this out or anything,

Wasn't offering anything cheesy. With thoe sources though, how are you playing an undead?


I'm also happy with my backstory as is, access to a dedicate unholy place doesn't strike me as being within the means of a low-level necromancer.

Could be an abandoned shrine. They cannot be that rare.

[big teej]

Wasn't offering anything cheesy. With thoe sources though, how are you playing an undead?



Could be an abandoned shrine. They cannot be that rare.

Bone template, book of vile darkness
also, there's a 'good' version in the book of exalted deeds (deathless i believe its called)

also, greater mummies in dieties and demigods are ....lawful good? I think. can't quite recall.


that was my fault, cheesy wasn't the write term (I'm having a moment... its late :smalltongue:)

I simply meant that I wasn't trying to pile on bonuses from being undead,

just to be sure that I was going about this correctly. (rules wise)

[Boci]

Bone template, book of vile darkness

La: -.


also, there's a 'good' version in the book of exalted deeds (deathless i believe its called)

1 creature (LA: -) and a template (La: +5).


also, greater mummies in dieties and demigods are ....lawful good? I think. can't quite recall.

La: -.

Is your DM changing anything to accomidate your character?

[big teej]

Is your DM changing anything to accomidate your character?

okay... this is probably going to sound very snarky and very sarcastic... but I promise its not....


I don't get your post :smallconfused: why the LA statements?


as far as the DM accomadating me, I don't know who's going to DM this character yet, but when I do I'll discuss it with them. the only "accomidation" i'd be looking for is a mutual understanding of when I say "I cast cure light wounds on myself" he knows I mean "inflict"

and not doing anything to blatantly give away the fact I'm dead....

unless I missed the point of that too :smallfrown:

[faceroll]

LA: – means that that monster has no listed LA, and is therefore not an acceptable player race/template. It is different than LA: 0.

[Boci]

okay... this is probably going to sound very snarky and very sarcastic... but I promise its not....


I don't get your post :smallconfused: why the LA statements?

By RAW you cannot play with 3 of the 4 you listed (thats what LA - means) and the only one you can play with has an LA of +5. That means if the starting level if 8, you will have 12+2d12 hit point (average 25) hit points, and at best a caster level of 3, meaning your spells will have little influence in combat and most likely out of combat as well. If the starting level is below 6 you cannot even play such a character.


as far as the DM accomadating me, I don't know who's going to DM this character yet, but when I do I'll discuss it with them. the only "accomidation" i'd be looking for is a mutual understanding of when I say "I cast cure light wounds on myself" he knows I mean "inflict"

and not doing anything to blatantly give away the fact I'm dead....

unless I missed the point of that too :smallfrown:

What I mean is that with the sources allowed, unless the DM changes the rule for you, you're character concept doesn't really work. If homebrew isn't used, I'd recomend pointing out the necropolitant template on crystalkeep, since its LA: 0. I don't mean to say "your doing it wrong", just that the sources available to you do not really lend themselves to your character concept.

[DragonOfUndeath]

See if you can get Libris Mortis. That way you can actually play an Undead using RAW. It also has a bunch of good Undead Feats like Improved Toughness and Profane Lifeleech.

[big teej]

LA: – means that that monster has no listed LA, and is therefore not an acceptable player race/template. It is different than LA: 0.

oh....
I was unaware of this. that post makes a heck of alot more sense now.

which brings forth another question:
is there anythin about the bone template that would make it bad for players? (aside from the RAW issue of LA - )


By RAW you cannot play with 3 of the 4 you listed (thats what LA - means) and the only one you can play with has an LA of +5. That means if the starting level if 8, you will have 12+2d12 hit point (average 25) hit points, and at best a caster level of 3, meaning your spells will have little influence in combat and most likely out of combat as well. If the starting level is below 6 you cannot even play such a character.



What I mean is that with the sources allowed, unless the DM changes the rule for you, you're character concept doesn't really work. If homebrew isn't used, I'd recomend pointing out the necropolitant template on crystalkeep, since its LA: 0. I don't mean to say "your doing it wrong", just that the sources available to you do not really lend themselves to your character concept.

I get it now :smallredface:
no they haven't been accomadating me, because I didn't know "I couldn't play that" but now that I do I will run it by all the potential DMs

I don't forsee it being a problem.
(as asked above)
unless there is something inherent in the template itself that makes it overpowered or something





See if you can get Libris Mortis. That way you can actually play an Undead using RAW. It also has a bunch of good Undead Feats like Improved Toughness and Profane Lifeleech.

trust me I'd love to.

whats life leech do? that sounds like a fun thing to have

[The Ogre]

which brings forth another question:
is there anythin about the bone template that would make it bad for players? (aside from the RAW issue of LA - )
Most likely for the fact that it comes from BoVD and isn't "technically" meant to be used by PCs. Ask the DM if you can still take the template by adding on a +1/+2 LA.


whats life leech do? that sounds like a fun thing to have
You spend 2 rebuke attempts to deal 1d6 damage to all living creatures in a 30-foot burst. You are then healed the same amount of health that you dealt with the Lifeleech.

It's an okay feat to use early on, but gets weaker as you level up.

[Boci]

Ask the DM if you can still take the template by adding on a +1/+2 LA.

Pretty much. Necropolitant tells us that undeadness itself is around LA: 0, so you need a value for +2 natural AC, 1d4 claw attack, immunity to cold, half damage from slashing and piercing weapons, +4 dex and weapon finesse. That would make a strong LA: +2 template, although the DM may wish to alter "half damage from slashing and piercing weapons" thing.

[big teej]

my groups tend to operate on a ... differnt method

for example

take an ogre, it has an ECL of... 6? before class levels

my group would let me take one without LA because.
well
I'M AN OGRE!!!
a town/village is going to see me coming and roll out the ballistae!


in a similar vein (and I have discussed with the the people who will potentially DM this character)
the general consensus is the fact that I have to keep secrets from the party (both in and out of character) and the fact that I'm dead if anyone find out I'm a skeleton (well... more dead) balances out what I'll get for being a skeleton.

*by the end of today I plan to put up the charactersheet of this monstrosity to make sure I've done it correctly


edit: can anybody tell me the 'average' weight of the human skeleton?

[Greenish]

anything not on the SRD or hardcopy that we possess is banned

resources are
DMG
BOVD
BOED
masters of the wild
races of stone
dieties and demigods
arms and equpiment guide
cityscapeYou can't be a Knight then, can you? :smallamused:

[Edit]:
edit: can anybody tell me the 'average' weight of the human skeleton?It's called "wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skeleton)": "In an adult, the skeleton comprises around 30-40% of the total body weight…"

[big teej]

You can't be a Knight then, can you? :smallamused:

[Edit]:It's called "wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skeleton)": "In an adult, the skeleton comprises around 30-40% of the total body weight…"

we have a PDF, its the one exception :smallredface::smallredface::smallredface::smallre dface::smallredface:

2nd, I didn't even think of wikipedia :smallredface::smallredface:

3rd.... wow... I really am big boned. my skeleton weighs 112 lbs...:smallbiggrin:

[Boci]

my group would let me take one without LA because.
well
I'M AN OGRE!!!
a town/village is going to see me coming and roll out the ballistae!

But isn't that a disadvantage for the whole group, were as the race only gives you an advantage?

[big teej]

But isn't that a disadvantage for the whole group, were as the race only gives you an advantage?

I'd say that having a bigger badder meat shield benefits the whole party :smallconfused:

[Boci]

I'd say that having a bigger badder meat shield benefits the whole party :smallconfused:

So does allowing the mage to cast spells 2 levels higher than they usually could. Of course making your character more powerful benefits the rest of the party since its a teamgame, that was bad wording on my behalf.
What I am aiming at is that your character is more powerful, in return for a disadvantage the other party members must share, unless they frequently disown you.

[Coidzor]

Pretty much. Necropolitant tells us that undeadness itself is around LA: 0, so you need a value for +2 natural AC, 1d4 claw attack, immunity to cold, half damage from slashing and piercing weapons, +4 dex and weapon finesse. That would make a strong LA: +2 template, although the DM may wish to alter "half damage from slashing and piercing weapons" thing.

I believe it should be, in order to really be brought in line with 3.5. Maybe a higher version of the DR that Skeletons get against those damages, since Bone creatures are just souped up skeletons anyway.

And yes, you are big boned. Because you would've weighed between about 280-373 pounds in life at whatever sort of grey's anatomy optimal weight figures.

[big teej]

I believe it should be, in order to really be brought in line with 3.5. Maybe a higher version of the DR that Skeletons get against those damages, since Bone creatures are just souped up skeletons anyway.

And yes, you are big boned. Because you would've weighed between about 280-373 pounds in life at whatever sort of grey's anatomy optimal weight figures.

I actually do weigh 280....
wait
are we still talking about my character? :smallconfused::smalltongue:


So does allowing the mage to cast spells 2 levels higher than they usually could. Of course making your character more powerful benefits the rest of the party since its a teamgame, that was bad wording on my behalf.
What I am aiming at is that your character is more powerful, in return for a disadvantage the other party members must share, unless they frequently disown you.

and I in turn, used a poor example

the ogre is a poor example, as you are correct, everyone shares the disadvantage (discounting for the party seperating for town adventures)

the bone creature however
is a secret unknown to the party, and the party are liable to be the first to draw arms against me, ergo, I recieve the benefits (as does the party) but only I run the risk.

and I feel fits the intent of my argument better.

[Coidzor]

Well, that's certainly a coincidence. If it comes up you can even say the bones are yours.:smallamused:

Sort of depends upon the party, whether they would immediately try to kill you, especially after working with you for X period of time, I imagine. And the DM. And the world. Though I imagine if the DM was that sort, you wouldn't get to run the character at all.

Though you mentioned that you don't have a DM in particular for this character...

[Thurbane]

There is that Dragon mag feat Faerie Mysteries Initiate, that I believe allows you to add INT bonus to HP instead of CON?

[Boci]

There is that Dragon mag feat Faerie Mysteries Initiate, that I believe allows you to add INT bonus to HP instead of CON?

Unfortunatly its campaign specific (forgotten realms) and the OPs group doesn't sound like the type to allow such stuff. But yes, for undead in general it is a good way to make up for the lack of hitpoints, one of the non-cheesy ways to use the feat. It does however require that you be an elf.

[DragonOfUndeath]

I remember reading somewhere (Libris Mortis maybe?) about something that lets you use CHA for HP instead of CON. It's good for Undead as they have a bonus to CHA (idk why)

[big teej]

Well, that's certainly a coincidence. If it comes up you can even say the bones are yours.:smallamused:

Sort of depends upon the party, whether they would immediately try to kill you, especially after working with you for X period of time, I imagine. And the DM. And the world. Though I imagine if the DM was that sort, you wouldn't get to run the character at all.

Though you mentioned that you don't have a DM in particular for this character...

its going to be one of 2 people, all of whom are in my on campus group, one of them is a teacher-player, the other is a student-player (all 3 teacher-players know about the idea, as I wanted their opinions and trust their ability to keep in and out of character knowledge seperate)
the other one is our current 'alt DM' a player that spoke up one day and said "hey, I have an idea, can I run?"

and we let him.

if he ends up DMing this character I'll bring it up far before the first session and explain everything to him.


judging by our two current parties (one of which I'm dming, the other I'm playing in)

party A (me DMing) consists of a Human Paladin, a Human ranger, a half elf? ranger, an elf druid, and a dwarf fighter

I feel that my character surviving would depend on 1) how long I'd spent with the party. 2) whether I detected as evil to the paladin, and he beleived the results (that being 'not evil) 3. how far out of my way (or above and beyond the call) I've been going to make life easier for the party (using the 'shield other' spell on a regular basis for example)
that said, I feel that the most likey outcome is one of the following
A) the party finds out in a location I can't escape in, and the party kills me.
B) the party finds out in a location I CAN escape in (such as wilderness) and cast obscuring mist and sanctuary and run away (undead don't get tired!)

party 2 consists of
me - a human knight (not the undead one, just a regular human)
a gnome alchemist
a halfing rogue
a human cleric of bahamut (this is subject to change, the player doesn't strike me as physically capable of playing 'lawful' and 'good' is a stretch)
a human fighter
and.....
a half orc barbarian.

given that my current knight would have to die in order for this character to join the party, I think this group would have every possible reaction (roleplayed to the fullest that is)

the alchemist and the rogue would both most likely have a 'meh' and a 'omgwtfbbq' reactoin
the human cleric (if roleplayed as a LG bahamut worshipper) would immedietly try to crumble me to dust
the human fighter? not a clue, she hasn't been present yet. (player strikes me as having either a utterly apathetic response, or a KILL IT response)
the half orc, most definitly 'UG SMASH!!!'


Unfortunatly its campaign specific (forgotten realms) and the OPs group doesn't sound like the type to allow such stuff. But yes, for undead in general it is a good way to make up for the lack of hitpoints, one of the non-cheesy ways to use the feat. It does however require that you be an elf.

indeed, we don't have access to FR books at the moment.

besides
elf...
ick. :smalltongue:

I've only had 2 elf character concepts and i haven't played either 1 (though I finally got to roll one up recently) furthermore, both are heavily based on warhammer druchii, (they're not drow elves, but thats still my basis) one is going to be based off the character of Malus Darkblade, the other is a priest of kaela mensha kaine.

and with that, I must sleep.

[Thurbane]

I remember reading somewhere (Libris Mortis maybe?) about something that lets you use CHA for HP instead of CON. It's good for Undead as they have a bonus to CHA (idk why)
I don't know of any feat or PrC that gives this...some undead get it as a racial ability (Unholy Toughness - the Boneclaw and 1 or 2 others get it).

[DragonOfUndeath]

some undead get it as a racial ability (Unholy Toughness - the Boneclaw and 1 or 2 others get it).

That's probably what I'm thinking of.