[3.5 D&D]Stat Up Howard Hill

[Incanur]

This famous real-world archer killed an elephant (http://www.howardhillarchery.com/the-legends-story-3.html) with one arrow from a 115lb bow. Give me the lowest level character you think of who can kill a D&D elephant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elephant.htm) consistently with a single arrow. No magic of any kind. We'll say the bow he used counts as a +3 mighty composite; don't go beyond that.

[Eldariel]

+3 sounds pretty low if you wanna account for modern vs. medieval bows. At any rate, that was clearly a critical; want a build that can do it on crit or without? 'cause without, you'd be looking at high Epic.

[Telonius]

Question: did he catch the elephant flat-footed?

EDIT: Shame the Assassin's death attack requires a melee attack, not a ranged. (Always found that to be very silly).

[WinceRind]

Lots and lots of brainstorming as a stream of thought. Don't venture in the spoiler unless you're sure of it...

+3 sounds pretty low if you wanna account for modern vs. medieval bows. At any rate, that was clearly a critical; want a build that can do it on crit or without? 'cause without, you'd be looking at high Epic.

Or a death attack from Arcane Archer's capstone ability which can be achieved before level 20.

Also, isn't there a type of arrow that does slashing damage? I forget what it's called, but since it does slashing damage can't you simply make it Vorpal? I think you might be able to.

And then if he is a rogue, sneak attack dice + an enchanted bow + crit might help, but in that case you'd have to be very lucky on the rolls. Assuming highest level of rogue and no items or stances that would improve sneak attack, and a VERY lucky roll (which wouldn't be that out of place, since I doubt that he was shooting elephants every day), sneak attack could cover 60 damage out of the 104 HP average.

So the other 44 damage would have to come from the bow alone... Assuming no magic, there'd be no enchantment on the bow, right? And the bow crit multiplier is x3... So before crit, one single arrow should be able to do 44/3 or roughly 15 damage.

As far as I remember, a bow does 1d8 damage. On an absolutely lucky roll, that would be 8 damage. Then there's extra 3 damage from strength... So, 11 damage. Not good enough, it would only do 33 damage on a crit if you multiply it by 3, or even worse if you do it by the rules and roll an extra 2 dies because you'd have to be incredibly lucky to get 2 more 8s.

So, doing maximum damage with 10d6 sneak attack and non-magical +3 composite longbow on a crit, you should do 93 damage. That is below the elephant's average health... But still in the potential range of 11d8 +55 (Lowest is 66, highest is 143).

If you assume just the lowest possible health for the elephant, it could be a lot more reasonable with similar amount of unlikely lucky rolls...

So we've established that the most damage a composite (+3) longbow without any magical enhancement can do on a crit is 33. That's half of the 66. So the other 33 must be dealt some other way...

33 could be... 6 dies of very lucky sneak attack! Or 5 dies of maximum Skirmish + some other bonus to cover the 3!

Alternatively, if you assume that the guy was a Ranger and had Animal as his favored foe, you can add in up to the maximum of 8 damage before crit without any extra feats. So that would be 24 damage after crit.

And there's also a feat from somewhere that works like a ranged power attack, to some extent - exchanging 1 attack for 2 damage up to the maximum of 5 attack at level 20. The progression happens by 1 attack per every 4 levels if I remember it correctly. But I have no idea where that feat comes from, so let's ignore it.

If he was a scout/ranger, it would be pretty reasonable for him to accomplish it if he had the Swift Tracker (or Swift Hunter, what's it called?) feat from Complete Scoundrel. Improved Skirmish would only make it better.

So, let's see. Human Scout/Ranger.

Favored enemy: Animal. Since no magic is allowed, only one level in ranger will do.

Human Scout 1/ Ranger 1/ Scout 8 with Swift Hunter would result in +6 damage weapon damage against animals, making it 18 after the crit. It will also have 3d6 skirmish, or 5d6 with Improved Skirmish and 20 feet movement. That will do 30 damage at the maximum.
Then as we established in the spoiler, an arrow shot from composite (+3) longbow with +3 strength modifier will do the maximum of 11 damage, or the total maximum of 33 damage on crit.

Let's see... 18+30+33 = 81 damage. That's certainly higher then the lowest possible elephant health, but still not at the average.

So let's add another level - this time, a rogue. At the character's 9th level to take advantage of the feat to pick up Swift Ambusher.

Now, on top of 81 damage under the best possible conditions, we can add 5d6 extra sneak attack damage, assuming the elephant was vulnerable to sneak attacks. At the highest, that will add another 30 damage, effectively making it a sure kill against the elephant average hp (111 damage vs 104 hp)

So, yeah. And Howard Hill wouldn't even face multi-class xp penalties because he's a human!

Total level 11
Classes: Scout 9/Ranger 1/Rogue 1.
Conditions: All dies magically land on the highest possible values (6 on d6, 8 on d8, 20 on d20), the elephant must be either flatfooted or denied dexterity bonus and within 30 feet during the shot, Howard must move at least 20 feet before firing said shot.

With extreme luck required to make all these rolls (I'm not even going to bother with calculating the odds), it will kill the elephant outright.

And that's without considering feats that might improve the effectiveness of Ranger's favored foe. I'm fairly sure there's one from 3.0 that allows you to increase the critical multiplier against your favored foe by 1... That would make it a LOT easier. 11+6 (maximum arrow damage + 6 from favored foe) x 68 which would t do enough damage to kill the elephant at it's lowest possible health. So if such feat exists in 3.5, any combination of Ranger and Scout with Swift Hunter feat up to lvl 10 might work. Preferably just 1 ranger and 9 scout for Skirmish.

Or with very extreme luck and this elusive +1 crit multiplier feat, a level 5 scout/ranger (1 ranger, 4 scout with Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish) would do 11+4 x4 maximum damage on the arrow itself (60 damage) + 4d6 damage from Skirmish after moving 20 feet (highest possible damage 24) and that would do enough damage to kill an elephant with less then average health.

If one rogue level is taken for lvl 6, with Swift Ambusher feat, you can add 3d6 more damage which under favorable conditions would result in 18 damage resulting in 102 damage total, which is 2 damage below the average elephant hp.

[WinceRind]

Of course, none of the solutions I've given are likely to work in an actual game. The odds against rolling so many maximum rolls are astronomical, which doesn't necessarily mean impossible, but y'know.

Without a crit and incredibly lucky rolls, you're unlikely to get the elephant down in one shot without magic even at lvl 20.

[Telonius]

Lots and lots of brainstorming as a stream of thought. Don't venture in the spoiler unless you're sure of it...


Or a death attack from Arcane Archer's capstone ability which can be achieved before level 20.

Also, isn't there a type of arrow that does slashing damage? I forget what it's called, but since it does slashing damage can't you simply make it Vorpal? I think you might be able to.

And then if he is a rogue, sneak attack dice + an enchanted bow + crit might help, but in that case you'd have to be very lucky on the rolls. Assuming highest level of rogue and no items or stances that would improve sneak attack, and a VERY lucky roll (which wouldn't be that out of place, since I doubt that he was shooting elephants every day), sneak attack could cover 60 damage out of the 104 HP average.

So the other 44 damage would have to come from the bow alone... Assuming no magic, there'd be no enchantment on the bow, right? And the bow crit multiplier is x3... So before crit, one single arrow should be able to do 44/3 or roughly 15 damage.

As far as I remember, a bow does 1d8 damage. On an absolutely lucky roll, that would be 8 damage. Then there's extra 3 damage from strength... So, 11 damage. Not good enough, it would only do 33 damage on a crit if you multiply it by 3, or even worse if you do it by the rules and roll an extra 2 dies because you'd have to be incredibly lucky to get 2 more 8s.

So, doing maximum damage with 10d6 sneak attack and non-magical +3 composite longbow on a crit, you should do 93 damage. That is below the elephant's average health... But still in the potential range of 11d8 +55 (Lowest is 66, highest is 143).

If you assume just the lowest possible health for the elephant, it could be a lot more reasonable with similar amount of unlikely lucky rolls...

So we've established that the most damage a composite (+3) longbow without any magical enhancement can do on a crit is 33. That's half of the 66. So the other 33 must be dealt some other way...

33 could be... 6 dies of very lucky sneak attack! Or 5 dies of maximum Skirmish + some other bonus to cover the 3!

Alternatively, if you assume that the guy was a Ranger and had Animal as his favored foe, you can add in up to the maximum of 8 damage before crit without any extra feats. So that would be 24 damage after crit.

And there's also a feat from somewhere that works like a ranged power attack, to some extent - exchanging 1 attack for 2 damage up to the maximum of 5 attack at level 20. The progression happens by 1 attack per every 4 levels if I remember it correctly. But I have no idea where that feat comes from, so let's ignore it.

If he was a scout/ranger, it would be pretty reasonable for him to accomplish it if he had the Swift Tracker (or Swift Hunter, what's it called?) feat from Complete Scoundrel. Improved Skirmish would only make it better.

So, let's see. Human Scout/Ranger.

Favored enemy: Animal. Since no magic is allowed, only one level in ranger will do.

Human Scout 1/ Ranger 1/ Scout 8 with Swift Hunter would result in +6 damage weapon damage against animals, making it 18 after the crit. It will also have 3d6 skirmish, or 5d6 with Improved Skirmish and 20 feet movement. That will do 30 damage at the maximum.
Then as we established in the spoiler, an arrow shot from composite (+3) longbow with +3 strength modifier will do the maximum of 11 damage, or the total maximum of 33 damage on crit.

Let's see... 18+30+33 = 81 damage. That's certainly higher then the lowest possible elephant health, but still not at the average.

So let's add another level - this time, a rogue. At the character's 9th level to take advantage of the feat to pick up Swift Ambusher.

Now, on top of 81 damage under the best possible conditions, we can add 5d6 extra sneak attack damage, assuming the elephant was vulnerable to sneak attacks. At the highest, that will add another 30 damage, effectively making it a sure kill against the elephant average hp (111 damage vs 104 hp)

So, yeah. And Howard Hill wouldn't even face multi-class xp penalties because he's a human!

Total level 11
Classes: Scout 9/Ranger 1/Rogue 1.
Conditions: All dies magically land on the highest possible values (6 on d6, 8 on d8, 20 on d20), the elephant must be either flatfooted or denied dexterity bonus and within 30 feet during the shot, Howard must move at least 20 feet before firing said shot.

With extreme luck required to make all these rolls (I'm not even going to bother with calculating the odds), it will kill the elephant outright.

And that's without considering feats that might improve the effectiveness of Ranger's favored foe. I'm fairly sure there's one from 3.0 that allows you to increase the critical multiplier against your favored foe by 1... That would make it a LOT easier. 11+6 (maximum arrow damage + 6 from favored foe) x 68 which would t do enough damage to kill the elephant at it's lowest possible health. So if such feat exists in 3.5, any combination of Ranger and Scout with Swift Hunter feat up to lvl 10 might work. Preferably just 1 ranger and 9 scout for Skirmish.

Or with very extreme luck and this elusive +1 crit multiplier feat, a level 5 scout/ranger (1 ranger, 4 scout with Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish) would do 11+4 x4 maximum damage on the arrow itself (60 damage) + 4d6 damage from Skirmish after moving 20 feet (highest possible damage 24) and that would do enough damage to kill an elephant with less then average health.

If one rogue level is taken for lvl 6, with Swift Ambusher feat, you can add 3d6 more damage which under favorable conditions would result in 18 damage resulting in 102 damage total, which is 2 damage below the average elephant hp.

Add in Craven, maybe? 11 extra damage on a sneak attack is about 10% of the total you need to kill the elephant.

EDIT: Also, if we're going for fortune totally favoring us, we only need to roll 51 points of damage. Massive damage kicks in at that point.

[Incanur]

+3 sounds pretty low if you wanna account for modern vs. medieval bows.

Hill used a longbow - possibly bamboo-backed but not a compound bow. He disliked pulleys and such. 115lbs is lower than the average weight of an English warbow, so going beyond +3 strikes me as excessive.


At any rate, that was clearly a critical; want a build that can do it on crit or without? 'cause without, you'd be looking at high Epic.

It needs to be consistent; Hill didn't go around impaling elephants until he got lucky. He may have more than one arrow on some of the other elephants he hunted, but various folks have managed the one shot, one kill as well (most recently Teressa Groenewald-Hagerman). Get it down to at least a one-in-three chance of dropping the elephant with a single arrow. We can assume the elephant to be flat-footed.

Note that the elephant doesn't have to die immediately. If you can a nonmagical mechanic for blood loss that would be ideal. For an example of how this works, see here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo93h2KBKMw) (warning: sad video :smallfrown:).

[Dubious Pie]

Rogue/Assassin/Arcane Archer should be able to do it.

[Incanur]

Rogue/Assassin/Arcane Archer should be able to do it.

No magic. :smallsmile: Hill was a good archer with a quality bow but I doubt he had enchanted arrows.

[WinceRind]

Add in Craven, maybe? 11 extra damage on a sneak attack is about 10% of the total you need to kill the elephant.

EDIT: Also, if we're going for fortune totally favoring us, we only need to roll 51 points of damage. Massive damage kicks in at that point.

I thought that rule only applied to players?

I don't think there's any massive damage for monsters...

And back on topic, yeah, if consistency is needed then it's not very likely.

In a melee, it would be fairly easy to consistently do enough damage with Power Attack + Leap Attack + 'Trooper build to get the elephant down in one hit below level 20.

But for ranged? I highly doubt it. Unless there are some kind of death attacks involved, or incredibly lucky rolls, it ain't gonna happen without magic.

Of course, you can go the lame route and take the feat that lets you exchange 1 die of sneak attack for 1 bleeding damage per round (and there's a limit on 1 per hit) from Complete Adventurer, I think, but if you do that it will take forever for the elephant to kick the bucket.

D&D just isn't built for that. The guy probably (I don't know too much history there) shot the elephant into some kind of a weak spot. Probably the eye, because I can't think of any other part on an elephant that would let you kill it in one shot... The heart is probably deep and hard enough to hit, even with those huge elephant-killing guns in 19th and early 20th centuries they often didn't get a kill on one shot.

So, yeah, precision damage. D&D doesn't allow it. Else a lot of attacks could be incredibly deadly - slitting the throat would be near instant kill or at least complete removal from combat, shot in exposed head / eye/ mouth would also be guaranteed death. The only thing D&D has similar to it are Death Attacks, or Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike/Skirmish, but those don't even come close.

Can't have no Howard Hill in no D&D. Triple negative! Yeah!

[Karoht]

As for weak/vital zones...
There was a police officer in the states, some 8+ years ago, who was the only officer on scene when an elephant went nuts at a circus.
He put a few rounds behind the ear when the elephant turned, using a 9mm.

Basically, an elephant has uber thick skin, with an uber thick fat layer right underneath. You'd want to hit a spot where the skin and fat are thinest.

Where did the arrow land in the real world example?

Also, what are the rules for aiming for a vital zone on an elephant?
On a human, such a vital spot might be the size of a golf ball, on an elephant it might be as large as a basketball.
Just saying.

[Bakkan]

Does Knowledge Devotion count as magic? I'll assume not for the moment.

Consider Human Rogue 3/Scout 4/Ranger 1 with Point Blank Shot, Swift Hunter, Craven, Knowledge Devotion, Favored Enemy(animal) +4 and the Collector of Stories skill trick (to fuel Knowledge Devotion).

This gives 2d6 skirmish and 2d6+8 sneak attack damage, +9 from maxxed-out Knowledge Devotion and favored enemy boni, +3 for composite longbow, +1 PBS gives

1d8+4d6+21 damage (39.5 average, 53 max) damage on a hit and

3d8+4d6+63 damage (90.5 average, 111 max) damage on a crit.

If we increase the levels to Rogue 5/Scout 4/Ranger 1 and take Swift Ambusher, we get 3d6 skirmish and 3d6+10 sneak attack, for

1d8+6d6+23 damage (48.5 average, 67 max) damage on a hit and

3d8+6d6+69 damage (103.5 average, 129 max) damage on a crit.

Finally, if we increase the levels to Rogue 10/Scout 9/Ranger 1, we can get 5d6 skirmish, 5d6+20 sneak attack, +5 knowledge devotion, +6 favored enemy, +3 composite longbow, +1 PBS for

1d8+10d6+35 damage (74.5 average, 103 max) damage on a hit and

3d8+10d6+105 damage (153.5 average, 189 max) damage on a crit.

I don't know of any way to get a non-crit reliably around 104 damage pre-epic without magic, but if you allow crits, level 10 seems sufficient.

Edit: If he takes Improved Critical that gives him nearly a 10% chance of killing an elephant outright.

[WinceRind]

As for weak/vital zones...
There was a police officer in the states, some 8+ years ago, who was the only officer on scene when an elephant went nuts at a circus.
He put a few rounds behind the ear when the elephant turned, using a 9mm.

Basically, an elephant has uber thick skin, with an uber thick fat layer right underneath. You'd want to hit a spot where the skin and fat are thinest.

Where did the arrow land in the real world example?

Also, what are the rules for aiming for a vital zone on an elephant?
On a human, such a vital spot might be the size of a golf ball, on an elephant it might be as large as a basketball.
Just saying.

I'd imagine the eye and behind the ear are about it. At least for bow and arrow... They should be more vulnerable for fire arms, you can tear through practically anything with some guns.

Although 9mm, I imagine, wouldn't be it. Ahem.

But, yeah. There are no rules in D&D for aiming for a specific vital zone/limb. You can't break someone's arm in D&D, and attacks or spells that target specific body parts are both rare and don't generally actually affect the limb in question. Wither Limb spell either gives you a penalty to str if applied to arms, or a penalty to move speed if applied to legs. Might be something else to it too, but I don't remember all the details. The main point I'm trying to make, despite the fluff describes it as actually withering one's arm or leg and making it ineffectual in combat or movement, in game it's only a -6 str debuff or a movement debuff that's not any different from any other debuff of a similar nature that might even involve targeting a limb.

You'd probably need another system if you want that kind of stuff. There are probably quite a few, but I'm not quite knowledgeable in those regards.

[WinceRind]

Does Knowledge Devotion count as magic? I'll assume not for the moment.

Consider Human Rogue 3/Scout 4/Ranger 1 with Point Blank Shot, Swift Hunter, Craven, Knowledge Devotion, Favored Enemy(animal) +4 and the Collector of Stories skill trick (to fuel Knowledge Devotion).

This gives 2d6 skirmish and 2d6+8 sneak attack damage, +9 from maxxed-out Knowledge Devotion and favored enemy boni, +3 for composite longbow, +1 PBS gives

1d8+4d6+21 damage (39.5 average, 53 max) damage on a hit and

3d8+4d6+63 damage (90.5 average, 111 max) damage on a crit.

If we increase the levels to Rogue 5/Scout 4/Ranger 1 and take Swift Ambusher, we get 3d6 skirmish and 3d6+10 sneak attack, for

1d8+6d6+23 damage (48.5 average, 67 max) damage on a hit and

3d8+6d6+69 damage (103.5 average, 129 max) damage on a crit.

Finally, if we increase the levels to Rogue 10/Scout 9/Ranger 1, we can get 5d6 skirmish, 5d6+20 sneak attack, +5 knowledge devotion, +6 favored enemy, +3 composite longbow, +1 PBS for

1d8+10d6+35 damage (74.5 average, 103 max) damage on a hit and

3d8+10d6+105 damage (153.5 average, 189 max) damage on a crit.

I don't know of any way to get a non-crit reliably around 104 damage pre-epic without magic, but if you allow crits, level 10 seems sufficient.

Edit: If he takes Improved Critical that gives him nearly a 10% chance of killing an elephant outright.

Of course, you can always reinvent that ranger spell that lets you get 1 critical attack with the bow (I think it's 2nd level spell, from Spell Compendium) as simply taking aim and shooting at a very vulnerable spot.

That sound reasonable enough... While it's still magic, you can always roleplay it as it's not. There are at least some spells that could be explained without any magic at all. True Strike = taking some time to aim for a specific spot and watching the enemy's movements to make sure it lands. Really, similar to feint, and it also takes a standard action by default. Caltrops - Well, that stuff is obvious. Grease - throwing or pouring some kind of an oil on the ground or on an object.

Some of the spells don't have very reality altering effects and can be easily explained or reimagined as completely non-magical.

Also, I'm so pissed that I forgot all about Craven and Point Blank Shot during my rant above.

[Telonius]

Thinking about it, Craven would probably disallowed. Dude going after an elephant with just a longbow suggests some sort of fear immunity.



I'd imagine the eye and behind the ear are about it. At least for bow and arrow... They should be more vulnerable for fire arms, you can tear through practically anything with some guns.

Although 9mm, I imagine, wouldn't be it. Ahem.

But, yeah. There are no rules in D&D for aiming for a specific vital zone/limb. You can't break someone's arm in D&D, and attacks or spells that target specific body parts are both rare and don't generally actually affect the limb in question. Wither Limb spell either gives you a penalty to str if applied to arms, or a penalty to move speed if applied to legs. Might be something else to it too, but I don't remember all the details. The main point I'm trying to make, despite the fluff describes it as actually withering one's arm or leg and making it ineffectual in combat or movement, in game it's only a -6 str debuff or a movement debuff that's not any different from any other debuff of a similar nature that might even involve targeting a limb.

You'd probably need another system if you want that kind of stuff. There are probably quite a few, but I'm not quite knowledgeable in those regards.

Maybe if we were using the Wound Point (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm)variant?

[Incanur]

Of course, you can go the lame route and take the feat that lets you exchange 1 die of sneak attack for 1 bleeding damage per round (and there's a limit on 1 per hit) from Complete Adventurer, I think, but if you do that it will take forever for the elephant to kick the bucket.

Aha! That's perfect. Arterial Strike from Complete Warrior. So a sixth level character can kill an elephant in about ten minutes, which models a shot to lungs or heart rather well. No epic levels for Howard Hill.

Tom Dyer (http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/bgforums/thread.cfm?forum=18&threadid=368103&MESSAGES=45&FF=18), on the other hand, supposedly stopped an elephant its tracks with a head shot. Does he have piles of hp? :smallwink:

Since you mentioned melee combat, how about this feat (http://books.google.com/books?id=2zjJBghjWuIC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=hunting+elephants+with+a+sword&source=bl&ots=kFfJc14S-H&sig=w7vG2Q0udf2bhqlfNifTnmDesrQ&hl=en&ei=nFb5TLmVIoa0lQfthKH_Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=snippet&q=sword&f=false) of killing an elephant with two strokes of the sword?


Probably the eye, because I can't think of any other part on an elephant that would let you kill it in one shot...

No, no. What the video I posted if you can handle it (it's super :smallfrown: especially because elephants are such intelligent and emotional animals). You're supposed to shoot an elephant through the ribs. Death comes slowly. Groenewald-Hagerman (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1177990/U-S-woman-poses-magnificent-elephant-downed-bow-arrow-left-die-overnight.html) actually shot her elephant at dusk and came back the next morning to find it dead.

[Greenish]

Of course, you can always reinvent that ranger spell that lets you get 1 critical attack with the bow (I think it's 2nd level spell, from Spell Compendium) as simply taking aim and shooting at a very vulnerable spot.There was a PrC somewhere who could do that 1/day as an Ex ability, I seem to recall.

[WinceRind]

Aha! That's perfect. Arterial Strike from Complete Warrior. So a sixth level character can kill an elephant in about ten minutes, which models a shot to lungs or heart rather well. No epic levels for Howard Hill.

Tom Dyer (http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/bgforums/thread.cfm?forum=18&threadid=368103&MESSAGES=45&FF=18), on the other hand, supposedly stopped an elephant its tracks with a head shot. Does he have piles of hp? :smallwink:

Since you mentioned melee combat, how about this feat (http://books.google.com/books?id=2zjJBghjWuIC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=hunting+elephants+with+a+sword&source=bl&ots=kFfJc14S-H&sig=w7vG2Q0udf2bhqlfNifTnmDesrQ&hl=en&ei=nFb5TLmVIoa0lQfthKH_Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=snippet&q=sword&f=false) of killing an elephant with two strokes of the sword?



No, no. What the video I posted if you can handle it. You're supposed to shoot an elephant through the ribs. Death comes slowly. Groenewald-Hagerman (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1177990/U-S-woman-poses-magnificent-elephant-downed-bow-arrow-left-die-overnight.html) actually shot her elephant at dusk and came back the next morning to find it dead.

Yeah, I didn't watch the video. Don't have the possibility of that for another few hours...

So I suppose if the eye isn't a good spot, death by bleeding makes sense.

I just thought that Howard actually got him down in one shot, "boom headshot" style. If that's not the case, death through bleeding makes perfect sense. Kinda like in that autobiographical short story by George Orwell...

And in regards to the killing an elephant with a sword in 2 hits, that shouldn't be hard at all in D&D without using any kind of magic. Pounce, Power Attack, Jump Attack, and if you want to be absolutely sure, 'Trooper. 6 damage per BAB for 2 strikes should be plenty... And then there's the unlimited benefit from strength bonus x 1.5.

if one would sacrifice 10 BAB in the above scheme, the elephant would get slaughtered just through power attack damage alone. Even 9 BAB might work. Hell, even 8 BAB is going to be enough if you have +3 str modifier.

[Greenish]

Thinking about it, Craven would probably disallowed. Dude going after an elephant with just a longbow suggests some sort of fear immunity.You can't really be brave if you don't feel fear.

[Seerow]

Are there really no PrCs out there that can give you dex (or some other stat) bonus to damage?


I could have sworn I remembered a class ability or feat that gave wisdom to damage, or was that just attack rolls?

[Ernir]

Are there really no PrCs out there that can give you dex (or some other stat) bonus to damage?


I could have sworn I remembered a class ability or feat that gave wisdom to damage, or was that just attack rolls?

Plenty of them, although Dex to damage is relatively hard to get. Check it out. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

[Seerow]

Plenty of them, although Dex to damage is relatively hard to get. Check it out. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

Looking through that I didn't see anything that applied to range damage though. Kind of disappointing.

[Eldariel]

Maxing out the crittable values and critical chance works decently. Ranger 1/Fighter (Targetteer) 4/Deepwood Sniper 8/Peerless Archer 3 with Knowledge Devotion (on K: Nature), Ranged Weapon Specialization and the "Arrow Storm" ACF for Targetteer + "Sniper" ACF for Targetteer has 7 attacks and inherent Keen arrows; allows us to give up 6 of his attacks for 13-20/x5 crit range.

If we have:
1d8 Bow
3 Strength
5 Knowledge Devotion
4 Weapon Specialization + Ranged Weapon Mastery
16 Power Shot
16 Craven

We still have To Hit of:
5 Dex
5 Knowledge Devotion
3 Weapon Focus
4 Take Aim
-5 Arrow Storm

for +12, which means we land the hit on 2, best we can hope for. Thanks to Telling Blow, we can land Craven at any distance. We also have Ranged Sneak Attack of 1d6 but that's not multiplied on critical so it's not very interesting to our efforts. Overall, this gives us slightly under 50% chance of critting (40% chance to crit and 5% miss chance) and the ability to deliver the pain on critical; minimum of 45*5 or 225 damage; just barely enough to kill an Elephant twice over. Indeed, even without Craven it stands at lethal 31*5 or 155.

[Incanur]

Looks great, though a little supernatural through Knowledge Devotion and the Peerless Archer's ability to make enchanted arrows.

I realized Arterial Strike only works if the elephant can't make heal checks. (Do the rules address whether animals can make checks? It's not trained only.) Even someone with a +0 bonus hits DC 15 around 1/4 of the time. Arterial strike deals 4 points of damage on average under those circumstances. If only it were actually that easy to prevent blood loss from a serious wound!

[Eldariel]

Looks great, though a little supernatural through Knowledge Devotion and the Peerless Archer's ability to make enchanted arrows.

Knowledge Devotion = Knowledge of a creature and how to best damage it; e.g. shooting it where it hurts or so. Seems perfectly mundane to me. It's an Extraordinary ability. Though the build works perfectly fine without it too; there's enough damage to go around that cutting 10 points of damage still leaves you with sufficient.

There are some supernatural abilities (Fletching, Consistent Aim, etc.) but we can simply ignore them as they aren't being used.

[Incanur]

While Knowledge Devotion could be reflavored as you describe, it's a devotion feat and thus connected with a deity. Nice build in any case. I like targetteer; fighters can get nice things after all.

[Eldariel]

While Knowledge Devotion could be reflavored as you describe, it's a devotion feat and thus connected with a deity. Nice build in any case. I like targetteer; fighters can get nice things after all.

It's a Devotion-feat, yes, but specifically an extraordinary one. Devotion-feats can be tied to deities, ideals or anything your character devotes a significant dedication towards; deities are only one option. I find "studying creatures" is sufficient for KDev. But...yeah. As said, it's unnecessary with the numbers we're running with.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I'd imagine the eye and behind the ear are about it. At least for bow and arrow... They should be more vulnerable for fire arms, you can tear through practically anything with some guns.

According to the link he gave he struck in between the ribs and the heart.

I would argue the bow is above +3. He mentions in the link his arrows had no explosive or poison tip, so the DnD equivalent really shouldn't be magical. Incanur mentions the bow was lighter than the English Longbow.. But it should be stated that the material he used would make a much different force to weight ratio, so they really can't be compared.

Honestly, I don't think scout is the right class. From the sounds of things he was not running around when he made his shot. However, as he is a hunter, I could completely see him as a ranger, with "animal" as his favored enemy. I'm not seeing keeping with it 5 levels. Probably just one, honestly.

To be honest I'd want more info on the method of his kill. But then, maybe not. To be even more honest I'm pretty against the hunting of an elephant. But it'd be interesting to see.

As a side note, I'd probably consider the first hit to be a sneak attack. I can't imagine the elephant knowing what a bow does, and it probably wasn't attacking him since killing a knowing elephant seems pretty outrageous. But is he a rogue? As a hunter, I'd argue he is. He'd aim for a fast kill. And what better than that? Though from 30 feet might be a little weird. Maybe the UA variant of fighter, the one with sneak attack instead of bonus feats, so he'd keep a full BAB.

Finally, the representation of perfect accuracy in DnD is (very arguably, since dexterity plays no part) the critical hit. So I imagine he'd focus on such a thing. If he takes barbarian up until level 7, and takes the street fighter variant, his critical threat range increases by 1. This stacks with the improved critical feat, though technically whether that makes it +1x2 or x2+1 is debatable. I said earlier a level of ranger. Never mind. Take the crafty hunter barbarian substitute, and use it with the streetfighting variant, for an additional 4 damage as well as point blank shot. Make your other levels fighter (rogue variant).. There's a feat that allows ranger and scout levels to stack, isn't there? I guess maybe that'd be better. Eh. Whatever. Anyway that's what I'd do.

[Incanur]

I would argue the bow is above +3. He mentions in the link his arrows had no explosive or poison tip, so the DnD equivalent really shouldn't be magical. Incanur mentions the bow was lighter than the English Longbow.. But it should be stated that the material he used would make a much different force to weight ratio, so they really can't be compared.

They can be compared. Hill generally used wooden longbows; I've never seen anything to say they were more efficient that the medieval variety. Moreover, Tom Dyer, who supposedly killed an elephant with a head shot, claims his bow delivered 159 J of kinetic energy. That's from a high-tech compound bow. A 150lb longbow manages 146 J with a heavy arrow; a horn-and-sinew composite would do better than that. So putting Hill's bow above +4 Str bonus in D&D terms makes little sense.

[Greenish]

Incanur mentions the bow was lighter than the English Longbow.. But it should be stated that the material he used would make a much different force to weight ratio, so they really can't be compared.Force to weight ratio? I've always thought that the draw weight is the measure of the force required to draw the bow, and thus directly related to the force the arrow will leave the bow.

Wikipedia tells me the english longbows recovered from Mary Rose had the estimated draw weight of around 150-160 lb, while Hill's bow had draw of 115 lb. Make of that what you will.

[Incanur]

Force to weight ratio? I've always thought that the draw weight is the measure of the force required to draw the bow, and thus directly related to the force the arrow will leave the bow.

Yes, though efficiency factors in as well. Modern compound bows are more efficient horn-and-sinew composite bows which are more efficient than wood-only bows. For any given arrow weight, that is. Heavier arrows tend to be more efficient.


Wikipedia tells me the english longbows recovered from Mary Rose had the estimated draw weight of around 150-160 lb, while Hill's bow had draw of 115 lb. Make of that what you will.

Yes, though Tom Dyer's compound has a draw weight of only 98 pounds yet outperforms a 150lb English warbow. But you're not going to see that kind of efficiency difference between two different wooden bows.

[SurlySeraph]

10th level non-crit-reliant build:
Human Ranger 1/ Barbarian 1/ Fighter 3/ Eldeen Ranger 2/ Peerless Archer 3.
Using the Barbarian ACF that trades Rage for Favored Enemy (from the SRD), and the Hit-and-Run (+Dex to damage vs flat-footed) and Sneak Attack Fighter ACFs.
Taking 2 flaws, his feat progression is:
1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Quick Draw
Ranger bonus: Track
3 Knowledge Devotion
6 Improved Favored Enemy
9 Craven

Strength is 18, Dex is 20 (18 base, +2 levels)

His damage is:
1d8 (composite longbow)
+10 Craven
+10 Power Shot
+5 (Dex, from Hit-and-Run)
+5 Knowledge Devotion
+4 (Strength, from composite)
+4 Favored Enemy (+2 Ranger, +2 Barbarian)
+3 Improved Favored Enemy
+1 Point Blank Shot
= 46.5 average. He can use the Eldeen Ranger's Hated Foe ability to double this to 93. And then he applies his +3d6 Sneak Attack damage for 10.5, killing the elephant if you round up. (If you don't, there are a few ways to do the last point, such as the Serrated mundane weapon property from Dragon #358; or using a Greatbow instead of a longbow, which gives -4 to his attack for nonproficiency)
His to-hit is +10 BAB - 10 Power Shot + 5 Dex +5 Knowledge Devotion +1 Point Blank Shot +1 masterwork weapon = +12, which'll hit the elephant on a 2 or less.

EDIT: Wait, forgot that you're limiting the bow to +3. In that case, Serrated arrows and a Greatbow are necessary, and he hits on a 6 or less.