The level spread

[Orzel]

From here to there, the members of the OotS make up at least 50% of the strongest living people we know. Da rulez state that very few people ever get to the levels past 10 in most world. One of my guesses of why Belkar acts the way he does is the fact that very few can actually stop him.

But I'm beginning to wonder...

Are there even that many "non-random-monster" people who are level 12+ in the OotSverse?

Or does the Master of Plots magically keep the "paragon" tier and up guys away from each other and their stories mostly separate?

Do you think there are some level 15s chasing after someone stronger than Xykon that the OotS never heard or bumped into? Are they too busy planehopping?

Are Roy, Belkar, and Thog in the Top 5 BAB among humanoids on the plane?

[SPoD]

Given the impossibility of either half of the party scoring a True Resurrection while Roy was dead, I would say yes, there are probably very few NPC characters currently above level 15. Of those, I would think that Team Evil, the living members of the Order of the Scribble, and Tarquin's six-man adventuring party probably represent half. Other high-level characters we know about are Julio Scoundrel and Bozzok, and that's about it.

So I would say the highest class-based BAB may well belong to Tarquin or Julio (or one of Tarquin's allies), with Roy, Thog, Belkar, and O-Chul coming in right behind them. There are no living warriors that we know about more powerful than they are. (Miko, Horace, and maybe Crystal may also be added to that list if we're including dead people.)

[Lvl45DM!]

Julio was only the 34th greatest swordsman so there probably are a load more

[Orzel]

Yeah. Seems to be less than 20 living people between level 12-20 who aren't strapped to a tower, castle, or guild house.

I'd hate to go on a Tarquin tangent but it does prove one of his points. It seems few adventurers get to live long so enjoy what you get.

[SPoD]

Julio was only the 34th greatest swordsman so there probably are a load more

He was #32, actually, and that was Top 100 Swordsmen of the Century. Which means many of those people may have long since died, at least those that were human. So that still points to not that many people better than he is at this exact moment.

[Orzel]

Just realized something.
Belkar is probably the 2nd strongest living ranger (after Girard).

The Second strongest ranger on the plane... is a glorified warrior!
And the strongest is probably an illusionist!

[Kurald Galain]

Given the impossibility of either half of the party scoring a True Resurrection while Roy was dead, I would say yes, there are probably very few NPC characters currently above level 15. Of those, I would think that Team Evil, the living members of the Order of the Scribble, and Tarquin's six-man adventuring party probably represent half. Other high-level characters we know about are Julio Scoundrel and Bozzok, and that's about it.

Well, for example, there's Aarindarius, Hinjo, O-Chul, Frudu, Team Peregrine, the Linear Guild, and whoever the new High Priest of Thor is.

High-level characters are rare, yes. But that doesn't mean there are only 20 or so in the whole wide world and that all of them have met the OOTS. There's possibly two or three other epic quests to save the world going on that we'll never hear of since this isn't their story.

[Barlen]

to further drive home this point, Tarquin told Roy that he was maybe the best warrior he had seen in years.

[Joerg]

There are probably some elves (Aarindarius?) and some dwarves which are high level.

The description of Azure City in War & XPs mentions a General Tso, who is supposedly epic level but retired from warfare. Perhaps he's still somewhere among the refugees.

In the same way, there may be some ex-PCs about in each land who just don't have a part in the story.

[King of Nowhere]

When you are high level, adventuring by itself don't makes much sense: you already have enough money, and you can gain other money without risking your life on a regular base. So it is reasonable that most high level adventurers settle in some organization.
You only adventure if you're pursuing a cause or have specific reasons

[PirateMonk]

Well, for example, there's Aarindarius, Hinjo, O-Chul, Frudu, Team Peregrine, the Linear Guild, and whoever the new High Priest of Thor is.

High-level characters are rare, yes. But that doesn't mean there are only 20 or so in the whole wide world and that all of them have met the OOTS. There's possibly two or three other epic quests to save the world going on that we'll never hear of since this isn't their story.

What makes you think Frudu is high level?

[Kurald Galain]

What makes you think Frudu is high level?
Well, he's carrying the Ming without going all to pieces...

[Orzel]

Many of these guys: retired adventures, tower mages, warrior kings, heads of churches; are sit and do nothing NPCs. People you get info on from a knowledge local or bardic knowledge roll. Their story is over if they had one and are destined to die in the next fight then get into.

Xykon blew up 3 gates, led a massive army, killed many spellcasters, and destroyed a city.
Linear Guild killed lots of people.
Tarquin just revealed that he caused and ended many wars.

The OotS hasn't really walked over some rubble and said "What the heck happen edhere?" yet. So it seems that the OotS, their allies, and their enemies are the only active people between level 10 and 20 except for maybe Team Peregrine.

[Faramir]

Well, it seems that practically every tavern has some high level types in it. And let's not forget the two guys that Roy decided not to hire in OTOOPCS

[Zmflavius]

I do distinctly recall Belkar saying that Redcloak was "probably" 17th level.

Then again, this was after he set off his MoJ, so he might not have been serious.

[Porthos]

I do distinctly recall Belkar saying that Redcloak was "probably" 17th level.

Then again, this was after he set off his MoJ, so he might not have been serious.

And Belkar would know how exactly? :smallsmile:

[littlekKID]

And Belkar would know how exactly? :smallsmile:



he was fighting him and his soliders for half a year?

[Porthos]

he was fighting him and his soliders for half a year?

Possible. But when Darth V entered the picture, he didn't use 9th Level Spells. And one would think he might have.

====

Regardless, Redcloak having access to Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) might present problems from a storytelling point of view. Or at least him having access before the ultimate showdown. It's a pretty darn powerful spell, even with the whole seeing if "your god (will) intercede on your behalf".

...

Though, as I think about it, the wording of the spell might make it so a god is reluctant to grant any Miracle, even the crunchy "no experience point loss" examples, if we take the whole non-interference idea into account. Yes, there is the example of Thor overstepping his authority. But, then again, that came back to bite him in the butt later on. It might be that The Dark One won't risk granting any Miracles of any sort until the climatic throwdown. In that case, granting a Miracle (which would then give other gods an execuse to intercede as well) wouldn't be as big of a deal.

It'd be analogous to going All In in a game of poker.

So, I suppose, that is one way to get around the drawbacks from a storytelling point of view.

[Heksefatter]

I don't know if they are THAT rare.

Nale recruited a group that was capable of challenging the Order of the Stick, if not exactly beat them, without that much difficulty. Leaky Windstaff, Zz'dtri, Yikyik and Yokyok are probably of comparable level to the members of the Order and they're secondary members of the Linear Guild. I don't know with Hilgya and Pompey probably isn't on level with the Order.

We also know of Fyron, V's master (too lazy to find the name, let alone write it), Lord Shojo (stated in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html) to be 14th level, even if it is an NPC class, Lord Hinjo, Miko and O-Chul. That's Azure City on the top of my head. Even a random bandit camp had a sorceress capable of challenging the Order - Samamtha. While Lord Hinjo and O-Chul are probably lower level than the Order, we do know that Lord Hinjo could put up a fight against Miko and O-Chul has a constitution in the mid-twenties which both imply reasonably high levels.

In the Empire of Blood I think that it is reasonable to believe that Tarquin's inner circle are all on level with the order, if not more.

Crystal is of the exact same level as Haley. Hieronymus Grubwiggler is capable of creating a bone golem which probably makes him high-level too. (I am too rusty in my 3.5 rules to determine the exact minimum level).

Then we have Roy's immediate family, his father and his grandfather. Eugene is clearly capable of high-level spells and Horace was capable of teaching Roy some pointers.

That's more than twenty characters mentioned and the list is far from comprehensive. Many of these characters are not prominent in-universe. So I don't think that they're that the levels of the Order are THAT rare. Just to be non-committal, I don't think that they are that common either.

[Morithias]

Possible. But when Darth V entered the picture, he didn't use 9th Level Spells. And one would think he might have.



Didn't he/she use time stop against the Mother Dragon?

[Kish]

Redcloak did not use any ninth level spells. Redcloak has never used any ninth-level spells onstage.

This may or may not mean he doesn't have them.

[suszterpatt]

Redcloak did not use any ninth level spells. Redcloak has never used any ninth-level spells onstage.

This may or may not mean he doesn't have them.
Based on his comment in #662 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html), Redcloak was (mostly) out of spells for the day when V attacked. So yeah, could be either way.

[Leecros]

I don't know if they are THAT rare.

Nale recruited a group that was capable of challenging the Order of the Stick, if not exactly beat them, without that much difficulty. Leaky Windstaff, Zz'dtri, Yikyik and Yokyok are probably of comparable level to the members of the Order and they're secondary members of the Linear Guild. I don't know with Hilgya and Pompey probably isn't on level with the Order.

We also know of Fyron, V's master (too lazy to find the name, let alone write it), Lord Shojo (stated in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html) to be 14th level, even if it is an NPC class, Lord Hinjo, Miko and O-Chul. That's Azure City on the top of my head. Even a random bandit camp had a sorceress capable of challenging the Order - Samamtha. While Lord Hinjo and O-Chul are probably lower level than the Order, we do know that Lord Hinjo could put up a fight against Miko and O-Chul has a constitution in the mid-twenties which both imply reasonably high levels.

In the Empire of Blood I think that it is reasonable to believe that Tarquin's inner circle are all on level with the order, if not more.

Crystal is of the exact same level as Haley. Hieronymus Grubwiggler is capable of creating a bone golem which probably makes him high-level too. (I am too rusty in my 3.5 rules to determine the exact minimum level).

Then we have Roy's immediate family, his father and his grandfather. Eugene is clearly capable of high-level spells and Horace was capable of teaching Roy some pointers.


From here to there, the members of the OotS make up at least 50% of the strongest living people[ we know.
several of the people you mentioned are dead.

other than the slight inaccuracy of using dead people in your examples, i do agree to your point. #nitpick

[Porthos]

This may or may not mean he doesn't have them.
I wasn't attempting to prove though. :smallsmile: I am simply inferring from the evidence given so far. And while I might indeed be wrong, I don't think it is very likely.



Didn't he/she use time stop against the Mother Dragon?

The "he" refers to Redcloak using spells against Darth V. Apologies for being unclear.

[Morquard]

The fact that noone found a cleric for a true resurection spell doesn't mean they're rare.
Haley didn't really search. She was busy in Azure City, thinking Durkon would come back, so why need a True Resurection. Afterwards they didn't come across a city either. Also they had the corpse, so wouldn't need it.
And Durkon was also trying to get the corpse back to resurrect, there was no need to look for a true resurrection either. Also they were in the middle of the ocean most of the time, and the nations they asked for help, refused to give it, so its possible they would keep their epic clerics a secret too.

Yeah, I know that Haley wondered if there's 17 level clerics, but just because she doesn't know any doesn't mean there isn't one.

Just look at the Order, sure they're on an epic quest to defeat an epic lich, but really, most stuff they did was from minor sidequests, and still they're level 15. So other adventuring groups that just clear some dungeons etc shouldn't have that much trouble reaching it either.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't know if they are THAT rare.

Nale recruited a group that was capable of challenging the Order of the Stick, if not exactly beat them, without that much difficulty. <snip>.

He did it when the OotS was lower level than now; and it is not far-fetched to think that lowish-mid level characters are not that hard to find.

[Heksefatter]

He did it when the OotS was lower level than now; and it is not far-fetched to think that lowish-mid level characters are not that hard to find.

I disagree. We see the level gains of the Order on-screen and they have been comparatively rare. As such, the original Linear Guild would only be a few levels lower than the Order. I am pretty sure that someone like Leaky Windstaff would be still be a serious challenge, even without level gains.

[Dr.Epic]

From here to there, the members of the OotS make up at least 50% of the strongest living people we know. Da rulez state that very few people ever get to the levels past 10 in most world. One of my guesses of why Belkar acts the way he does is the fact that very few can actually stop him.

Belkar acted that way at the start of comic when they were only level 7-9. How tough Belkar actually is doesn't really play a factor into his jerky-ness.


Are Roy, Belkar, and Thog in the Top 5 BAB among humanoids on the plane?

Huh, there a reason you didn't include O-Chul in there?

[Felixc-91]

Huh, there a reason you didn't include O-Chul in there?because pure level wise we have several indicators that he is not as powerful. Miko was the highest level paladin in the sapphire guard, and she explicitly states (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) that she is the highest level paladin in the Guard and that lord Hinjo is the second highest level. that would put O-Chul at least at position 3. now, given what we see in strip 408 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) Roy can beat her in a fair fight if she doesn't flee. that would put her at best only a few levels above him. and given how easily Miko defeats Hinjo, even after a few rounds with Roy she must have been a lot higher level than Hinjo. so, yeah O-Chul's probably somewhere between level 8 and 10, just with ridiculous Con and excellent Strength

[Dr.Epic]

because pure level wise we have several indicators that he is not as powerful. Miko was the highest level paladin in the sapphire guard, and she explicitly states (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) that she is the highest level paladin in the Guard and that lord Hinjo is the second highest level. that would put O-Chul at least at position 3. now, given what we see in strip 408 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) Roy can beat her in a fair fight if she doesn't flee. that would put her at best only a few levels above him. and given how easily Miko defeats Hinjo, even after a few rounds with Roy she must have been a lot higher level than Hinjo. so, yeah O-Chul's probably somewhere between level 8 and 10, just with ridiculous Con and excellent Strength

Okay, Miko is the highest level PALADIN, which could mean she has the most levels in paladin. O-Chul spent 12 years as a fighter before multiclassing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html). He could be a high level fight with only a few levels in paladin. And let's not forget O-Chul proved enough of a threat to cause Red Cloak to flee combat, while Miko's fight with him took much longer.

[Kurald Galain]

and given how easily Miko defeats Hinjo,
Hinjo isn't really fighting back in that scene: his sword is still sheathed.


He did it when the OotS was lower level than now; and it is not far-fetched to think that lowish-mid level characters are not that hard to find.
At that time, the Order was level 12 or 13, and we know that Leeky is at least 13th level too. Is that what you mean by lowish-mid?

[Felixc-91]

Hinjo isn't really fighting back in that scene: his sword is still sheathed.
for 2 rounds, not the whole fight. and Hinjo healed himself, negating most of that. the latter parts where he did not have his sword were clearly after she beat him down and disarmed him. she kicked his ass, even after taking fairly heavy damage from Roy and his +5 great-sword.

[terenes]

because pure level wise we have several indicators that he is not as powerful. Miko was the highest level paladin in the sapphire guard, and she explicitly states (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) that she is the highest level paladin in the Guard and that lord Hinjo is the second highest level. that would put O-Chul at least at position 3. now, given what we see in strip 408 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) Roy can beat her in a fair fight if she doesn't flee. that would put her at best only a few levels above him. and given how easily Miko defeats Hinjo, even after a few rounds with Roy she must have been a lot higher level than Hinjo. so, yeah O-Chul's probably somewhere between level 8 and 10, just with ridiculous Con and excellent Strength
O-Chul has been leveling rather fast while being prisoner of Xykon. Day per day he had encouters "just challanging enough" (he survived all of them and to easy encounters would not be funny for Xykon). During fight with Darth V Xykon has stated that O-Chul gained lot of XP during that process. Moreover Hinjo here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) states that both Lien and O-Chul has managed to gain few levels above him.

Anyway, back to the topic I think that there are quite few high level characters amongst the elves and dwarves. Most of cities should have high level characters as generals/high priests/guild masters. But not all of them. Cliffport seems to had none. After all I think that there is less or more than 50 characters having level around 15 or higher.

But what is most critical they usually work alone or in pairs. Excluding elves they don't form the teams and aren't organized force. As Order of the Stick had real problems with many encouters while divided united they rarely see worthy foe. So most of other High Level charcters are almost useless.

[Deliverance]

Based on his comment in #662 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html), Redcloak was (mostly) out of spells for the day when V attacked. So yeah, could be either way.
I really don't see how one can conclude from Redcloak not having Regenerate memorized, which is what we are told in #662, that he is mostly out of spells for the day.

The only spells we know he cast that day are True Seeing (#652), Greater Dispel Magic (#653), and Disintegrate and Word of Recall (#655).

He has probably cast more spells during the day and it is certainly possible that he is mostly out of spells, but there just isn't anything shown in the sequence that would indicate this to be the case.

During the Xykon vs. V fight he spends his time on analysing the situation and directing team Evil rather than flinging spells willy-nilly at V, and in a hotheaded character of the "cast-first, think-later" type that could be seen as indicative of being low on spells, but with Redcloak's analytical nature this is entirely normal operating procedure.

My guess would be that Redcloak doesn't have enough 7th level spell slots that he feels it is worth it to go around with Regenerate memorized every day just in case it might prove useful.

[snikrept]

I dunno, the OOTS seem to trip over high level characters wherever they go. The fact that they haven't met them doesn't mean loads more don't exist.

Consider that Haley wonders whether any clerics capable of casting true rez exist on the planet... now later it seems they may have found one already, in Malack.

[LuPuWei]

My two cents:

Snarl-lore is probably very obscure (that's how they wanted it) so even if there are NPCs/PCs out there with higher levels, they may just not be aware of what's at stake.

If you remember the Familicide sequence, there seem to be plenty of dungeons and plenty of adventuring parties out there raiding them. So there may be higher level good guys engaged in basic dungeon crawling and nothing else.

Heck, there may even be higher level Evil people (sort of) than Xykon, but just not that many who've chosen to hold the world to ransom.

[Orzel]

I dunno, the OOTS seem to trip over high level characters wherever they go. The fact that they haven't met them doesn't mean loads more don't exist.

Consider that Haley wonders whether any clerics capable of casting true rez exist on the planet... now later it seems they may have found one already, in Malack.

That's kinda my point. Either:
1) there aren't more than 4 or 5 people above 10 in any given city or kingdom
2) most of the paragon characters are no where near. The Order
3) Most of the paragon characters are straight useless (retired, stuck a tower, rulers, church heads, npc class, or dead)

Because "paragon" is the levels where your actions if active change the landscape of the world but only the Order and their enemies are the ones wrecking cities and destroying dungeons.

[Tass]

Heck, there may even be higher level Evil people (sort of) than Xykon, but just not that many who've chosen to hold the world to ransom.

At least not overtly enough for us to know about it.

[Asta Kask]

I think it is probably a wise choice. Finding dozens of high-level adventurers every story arc would cheapen the Order's achievements and lessen the threat from Xykon and Redcloak - after all, there are all these other adventurers who can take over if the Order fails.

No. If they fall, the world falls with them.

[Kurald Galain]

Because "paragon" is the levels where your actions if active change the landscape of the world but only the Order and their enemies are the ones wrecking cities and destroying dungeons.

I think you've got the wrong edition here. 4E is, I think, the only game that tries to quantify the level range during which your actions can and must change the world.

[Orzel]

I think you've got the wrong edition here. 4E is, I think, the only game that tries to quantify the level range during which your actions can and must change the world.

I used the word paragon because I felt the phrase "Level 10-20" was annoying to type over and over.

3 level 15+ D&D spellcasters wreck up the joint in all editions though.

[TheBlackShadow]

The way I see it is that OotSworld is a big place, with a lot of people living in it, and runs on the rules of D&D. Hence, there are a lot of adventuring parties out there. Furthermore, this is a world that we've only explored a very small part of, yet we still seem to run in to a good number of high-level characters, thus, there are more out there we haven't met, and probably never will.

Second, while I haven't read OtOoPCs, I don't believe that the upbringings of the Order's members weren't particularly unusual as D&D backstories go, and, collectively, they've achieved their current level of strength after only a couple of years of adventuring. From this, we can safely assume that while adventuring is a dangerous job and a lot of parties don't even survive that long, there has to be a fair number of people out there who've been doing this stuff a lot longer than they have.

Thirdly, the comic seems to focus a lot on the importance of collective strength rather than individual strength. When the Order has worked together, they've been more likely to succeed, when they work alone, they're more prone to failure. One need only look at the Darth V arc to see this, but you could also look at how Roy tried to solo Xykon during the Battle of Azure City. Hell, the same is true of Team Evil, Xykon needed Redcloak's backup in the fight with Soon and the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard, as well as help from Tsukiko during V's attack. The plot doesn't revolve around single, powerful characters doing things so much as weaker ones working together, and that's how things will probably be solved in the end.

In all, then, I think there are a lot of people just as powerful as the members of the Order rocking around, possibly embarked on equally important campaigns, because that's what the world is all about. Of course, there aren't so many higher-level level characters, many of whom will be in positions of great importance, like Lv.18 Redcloak as Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, and very few Epic-level characters. You could probably count the number of characters in the same league as Xykon on the fingers of a single hand. In the grand scheme of things, the Order, taken individually, are merely "Above Average", but together they're more than the sum of their parts, and that's what's important.

[hamishspence]

Qaar's "Do you know how few wizards even make it past 10th level?" here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html

does seem to suggest that characters of 10th level and above, are few and far between.

[LuPuWei]

does seem to suggest that characters of 10th level and above, are few and far between.

Not characters. Wizards.

[hamishspence]

Same principles apply to almost any PC class. All are likely to suffer attrition.

In fact, spellcasters might be the most common- thanks to increased survivability.

[LuPuWei]

Quite possible. I was just pointing out that the quote, applying only to wizards, can only be used to show that wizard rarity is canon.

The relative abundance of 10+ in other classes is all speculation.

Assuming, of course, Qarr's statement is reliable.

[Felixc-91]

Quite possible. I was just pointing out that the quote, applying only to wizards, can only be used to show that wizard rarity is canon.

The relative abundance of 10+ in other classes is all speculation.

Assuming, of course, Qarr's statement is reliable. i think we have reason to believe that Qarr's statement is unreliable in that case. he was trying to gain V's trust in that instance and one of the best ways to gain a person's trust is to tell them what they want to hear.

[Lvl45DM!]

I'd think wizards would be least common high level adventurers due to massively low survivabilty at low levels

[Felixc-91]

I'd think wizards would be least common high level adventurers due to massively low survivabilty at low levels it makes sense, i agree. at first level, wizards get a grand total of 4 spells per day, 3 of which or 0th level... not including stat modifiers. not to mention 4 hit points and no armor. that's one hit and your unconscious, 2-3 and your dead...

[Deliverance]

Same principles apply to almost any PC class. All are likely to suffer attrition.

In fact, spellcasters might be the most common- thanks to increased survivability.
Have you tried leveling a mage? Unless using some overpowered splatbook variant or living in a world sheltered by the merciful hands of a GM that pulls his punches, a pure arcane spellcaster has the survivability of a wet noodle for the first many levels.

An increased ability to survive "level appropriate encounters" only kicks in once the mage is way past the earlier levels and has a large complement of spells and enough hitpoints not to fall over when somebody sneezes on him..

[hamishspence]

There are a lot of ways for even a mid-level mage to survive an encounter that kills the low-magic or no-magical powers characters. Expeditious Retreat being one, gotten fairly early.

As the old joke goes:
"I don't have to outrun the bear- I only have to outrun you."

And it's called Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards) for a reason.

[Felixc-91]

There are a lot of ways for even a mid-level mage to survive an encounter that kills the low-magic or no-magical powers characters. Expeditious Retreat being one, gotten fairly early.

As the old joke goes:
"I don't have to outrun the bear- I only have to outrun you."

And it's called Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards) for a reason.yes, but what of low level wizards? you only get 3 level 1 spells until 4th level (including reasonable a modifier from a reasonable int score for a low level wizard [as in, less than 20]) you only get 2 for first level. what I'm saying is at low level, wizards are almost useless, and preparing an expeditious retreat makes them even more so. not to mention getting time to cast the spell and run. one hit and there is a good chance of getting knocked into the negative and having to hope your allies get there in time to stop the bleeding. an attack that can be made from over 90 feet with a long bow.
do you get my point?

[hamishspence]

Surviving low levels is difficult for everyone- not just wizards.

Surviving mid-levels and high levels is much easier for wizards (and clerics) than the various melee classes.

Hence- even if few wizards make it through the low levels, few melee classes make it through the mid-levels- so at high level wizards will be at least as common, if not commoner, than, say, fighters, or rogues.

[Felixc-91]

Surviving low levels is difficult for everyone- not just wizards.

Surviving mid-levels and high levels is much easier for wizards (and clerics) than the various melee classes.

Hence- even if few wizards make it through the low levels, few melee classes make it through the mid-levels- so at high level wizards will be at least as common, if not commoner, than, say, fighters, or rogues.
could you explain to me why mid level is harder for melee classes than magic wielders? i don't really have a lot of experience with the game. how would that balance extend to non magical ranged fighters like rouges and rangers? what about those who have limited magic like paladins, rangers, and bards?

[hamishspence]

Wizards have a very large number of ways of making themselves much safer than low magic/no magic classes- lots of personal range defensive spells, debuffs, and so on. Or just fly, if monster is a melee monster on the ground.

Going up against many "level-appropriate" monsters in melee, or even at range, is extremely dangerous for classes without that kind of protection.

See the aforementioned "linear warriors, quadratic wizards" like- and almost any thread in the D20 Roleplaying Games section of the forum, on the Tier System (wizards are Tier 1, fighters are Tier 5), where 1 is most versatile and 5 is least.

"Wizard vs fighter" threads also illustrate the point- very early on, wizards tend to overtake fighters in fighting power and durability.

Most nomagical ranged attacks have the problem that monsters still close the range gap rapidly, and ranged attacks tend to do less damage (even optimized) than melee, for classes like rogues, rangers, etc.

[snikrept]

Qaar's "Do you know how few wizards even make it past 10th level?" here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html

does seem to suggest that characters of 10th level and above, are few and far between.

Few compared to what though? That could still mean several hundred, or several thousand, when we're considering planetwide. Consider that Vaarsuvius was pretty upset when s/he discovered that, when seeking a mage guild to get info on Girard, there were only low level wizards in it. Clearly s/he was expecting a bunch of high level knowlegable mages, even though the OOTS had picked a random city in the desert that wasn't particularly known for being a haven for scholars or mystics. I.E. V is expecting to find high level mages in any given city, and seems angry that this city is a defective or unusual one.

Maybe V's preconceptions are biased by having lived in the elven lands, though, where powerful mages might be dime a dozen.

[hamishspence]

Maybe V's preconceptions are biased by having lived in the elven lands, though, where powerful mages might be dime a dozen.

This I could see- Wizard is a favored class for elves, and "high elf society" in most D&D settings, is very mage-heavy- lots of fairly powerful mages.

[Orzel]

I could guess and say maybe 85% of the mid to high level wizards are from the elven kingdom, a major city, or mage school graduates.

But let's look at the services table for spellcasting. A small city will normally only have casters that can cast 4th level spells as natives. This gives you 7th of 8th level casters.

This makes sense for a place like Greysky since Bozzok sent almost the whole guild after Haley and Co. Most of the guild was under level 8. Therefore he had to send everyone to stand a chance against a 12+ level rogue and her friends. Bozzok, Grubwiggler, and Crystal (and 2 others) took all the belove normal level slots.

Same with Cliffport. With Eugene and Fryon dead and Leeky and Pompey MIA, characters with more than 10 HD could be few and far between. The LG took the CPPD down easily since they hired most of the higher level townsfolk.

Now down to Azure City, you get a large city or metropolis: 5th-8th level spells. Therefore there should be at least 10 people with at least ten HD and at least one with 15 levels (Miko).

With the Empire of Blood (and Sweat and Tears) you have 3 large cities. Just over 10 levels should be the normal max of natives. My guess is Tarquin and Co take up all the above normal NPC slots.

Therefore there probably aren't many mid levels left in the places the Order visited. And remainder are boring natives or in dungeons.

[Hironomus]

Same principles apply to almost any PC class. All are likely to suffer attrition.

In fact, spellcasters might be the most common- thanks to increased survivability.

Your theories apply mostly to well made wizards.
Real people don't optomise. Not even in the OotS world.
Varsuuvius is an evoker for goodness sakes!