Synchronicity "Fix"?

[Stegyre]

This is not to debate the RAW of Synchronicity (CPsi), which is admittedly borked. Neither is it intended to debate the existential question of whether we can ever truly know RAI. I'm just going to make a certain (to my mind) reasonable assumption as to RAI and propose how RAW should be fixed to match that RAI. I am interested in comments as to whether that fix is effective -- or if it fails to correct existing abuses or opens up new ones -- or if people think I am entirely off base in the asserted RAI.
As written, Synchronicity, a first-level, general power available to any psion or wilder, provides, "When you manifest this power, you can ready a standard action (without spending an action to do so) and use it whenever you choose before your next turn. Unlike the normal use of readied actions, you need not specify the condition under which you take your readied action." The power has a manifesting time of one standard action.

For those who don't see the obvious RAW issues with this: if someone were to twin Synchronicity, he would have two standard actions to use this round. Simply specify the triggering condition for both actions as "right now!" If someone linked Synchronicity, he'd get an extra standard action next round. (Metapower that link, and he'd get an extra standard action next round for free!)

The idea that a first-level power was intended to let players break the action economy is really too absurd to argue, particularly when powers that explicitly break the action economy -- Schism, for example -- are much higher level and/or include significant restrictions.

It seems to me that the intended (RAI) purpose of Synchronicity is simply to allow a character to ready an action without specifying a trigger (or, if augmented, to simply "ready" without needing to specify an action). It's not supposed to "grant" a standard action at all. That sounds reasonable for a 1st level power and has some worthwhile utility without being overpowered.

How to implement it? "You manifest this power as part of a standard action. When you manifest this power, you may 'ready' an action for that standard action without needing to specify the condition under which you will take the readied action."

As so written, twinning the power would have no additional effect: you already gain the ability to ready your current standard action with a single manifestation of the power, so the twin of that adds nothing.

Linking is slightly less clear, but the RAI of this is essentially that linking has no significant effect. Manifesting Synchronicity, now, is neither a standard action, swift action, or free action. (Making it any one of those leads to its own set of problems.) It is "part of" a standard action, but really a "free" part. If you linked Synchronicity to another power so it manifested in the next round, it would simply be "part of" the standard action in that next round, just as it would if you had actually manifested the power in that next round. You don't really save on the action economy (a main purpose of linking), but you also don't lose anything either.

Comments?

[term1nally s1ck]

Why would making it a Swift or Free action, 1rd duration, with the effect of allowing you to ready actions without specifying a trigger, have its own problems? I'd say as a swift it would be weak, and as a free action it would be a good power, and allow for intelligent play.

In fact, make it a swift, and add a longer duration based on PP. It now turns into a good short-term buff.

[Psyren]

For those who don't see the obvious RAW issues with this: if someone were to twin Synchronicity, he would have two standard actions to use this round. Simply specify the triggering condition for both actions as "right now!" If someone linked Synchronicity, he'd get an extra standard action next round. (Metapower that link, and he'd get an extra standard action next round for free!)


It's hardly free if you're paying two feats for the privilege, one of which can't be used for anything else, and your psionic focus besides.

I don't see the huge problem with Synchronicity. Just because it's powerful and useful doesn't make it broken. Twinning it raises it to the cost of a 4th-level power - there's lots more broken things you could be doing at that level.

[Stegyre]

Making it a swift action arguably makes the power weaker than intended, as the character must now sacrifice his swift action for the round, whereas even by RAW, the character only gives up a standard action to gain a standard action (net cost zero).

Making it a free action substantially boosts the power: I could now manifest Synchronicity as a free action and link it to another power to go off next round. Then I could use my readied standard action to immediately manifest yet another power, linked to another power next round. Net result: this round, I get one power manifested; next round, I get two powers manifested (one on myself, one potentially on another target or area), and I still have all my actions available for that round. Do this round after round (assuming the power points last), and even a low level psion can do serious damage to the action economy, essentially getting to manifest three powers every turn.

That's why we cannot make it a free action, and even a swift action manifestation could be abused in this way (though as other swift powers exist, this issue is already present; I just don't want to add to it.)

The thought of allowing the effect to extend goes somewhat against the fluff, but imo would be interesting and not overpowered. Considering that this is already only a 1st level power that could be manifested each turn without loss of actions, I have to wonder what would actually be gained by it, however? :smallconfused:

[Stegyre]

It's hardly free if you're paying two feats for the privilege, one of which can't be used for anything else, and your psionic focus besides.
Actually, it's a single feat for either abuse path, and the focus cost is trivial. (Psionic Meditation is a given for any psionic planning to use any metapsionic feat, so it doesn't even really constitute an additional tax on this practice.)

I don't see the huge problem with Synchronicity. Just because it's powerful and useful doesn't make it broken. Twinning it raises it to the cost of a 4th-level power - there's lots more broken things you could be doing at that level.
That argument falls very quickly: Schism, widely regarded as a GREAT power, is a 4th level power and not as good. Furthermore, one can link Synchronicity, either to itself or to another 1st level power and get the same effect, only delayed a round, for only 2 power points, less than a 2nd level power.

Be a human or take a flaw and get Linked Power and Metapower (Linked Power - Synchronicity), and you can be breaking the action economy for 1 pp/turn from level 1. Get Psionic Meditation for another flaw, and you can do it turn after turn, as long as the pps last.

It's not pun-pun, but it's broken. :smalltongue:

[Chen]

I don't see the huge problem with Synchronicity. Just because it's powerful and useful doesn't make it broken. Twinning it raises it to the cost of a 4th-level power - there's lots more broken things you could be doing at that level.

Using the power cost of a 4th level power to gain an extra standard action at no other cost is broken. If you can somehow regain your focus it seems to me you'd be able to do it multiple times in a round too.

Quicken also has problems with synchronicity. It allows you to effectively quicken any level power once your manifester level is high enough to quicken 1st level powers, at an extra cost of only 1 power point.

Just not letting metamagic work with it is kind of an inelegant fix, but its the simplest and makes the most sense anyways.

[Stegyre]

Quicken also has problems with synchronicity. It allows you to effectively quicken any level power once your manifester level is high enough to quicken 1st level powers, at an extra cost of only 1 power point.
I'm not so sure about this: quickening Synchronicity does not quicken the standard action then granted by Synchronicity. What it would do is allow you exchange your swift action (used for the quickened Synchronicity) for a standard action, so it really does the same as Twin Power at the same pp cost (+6) and a slightly higher action cost (lose your swift action).

Just not letting metamagic work with it is kind of an inelegant fix, but its the simplest and makes the most sense anyways.
You may have a point there. I'm not aware of an abuse of the power that doesn't involve metamagic, and considering the trivial power cost, all that a character would really lose by this ban (aside from the brokenness) is the ability to manifest Synchronicity for free through the use of some metapower cost reducer (Metapower (Linked Power), Midnight Augmentation, etc.).

[Godskook]

How about "This power can not be altered via metapsionics"? That makes the power work only as written, which isn't creating any 'bonus' actions, really.

[Psyren]

Actually, it's a single feat for either abuse path, and the focus cost is trivial. (Psionic Meditation is a given for any psionic planning to use any metapsionic feat, so it doesn't even really constitute an additional tax on this practice.)

I wasn't counting PM. I was counting Metapower + Linked Power = Free Synch the following round (two feats) and once you apply that Metapower to synchronicity it can't be used for any other power.


That argument falls very quickly: Schism, widely regarded as a GREAT power, is a 4th level power and not as good.

You don't need two feats for Schism (like you do for free linked synch). At most you need one (Expanded Knowledge) and for many classes, Synch requires that same feat cost.

You also don't need PsiMed for Schism to work effectively, but you do need it for Linked Synch.


Be a human or take a flaw and get Linked Power and Metapower (Linked Power - Synchronicity), and you can be breaking the action economy for 1 pp/turn from level 1. Get Psionic Meditation for another flaw, and you can do it turn after turn, as long as the pps last.

It's not pun-pun, but it's broken. :smalltongue:

An extra standard action on each of your subsequent turns at level 1 isn't gamebreaking. You'll just nova and run dry that much more quickly.

[Stegyre]

I wasn't counting PM. I was counting Metapower + Linked Power = Free Synch the following round (two feats) and once you apply that Metapower to synchronicity it can't be used for any other power.First, this brokenness is just better with Metapower; Metapower is not essential to it, and the cost savings (1 pp) are trivial.

Second, Linked Power is so ideal for being Metapowered specifically because it easily circumvents the one-power limitation of Metapower: pick your favorite 1st level power and Metapower-Linked Power it. Nothing in RAW requires you to select the second linked power (the one that manifests in the following round). (This, imo, is a potent trick that is not broken; in fact, I recommend it.)

You don't need two feats for Schism (like you do for free linked synch). At most you need one (Expanded Knowledge) and for many classes, Synch requires that same feat cost.One feat, for Linked-Synch, as noted above. Put these two options side by side, and there's really no question:

Schism isn't available until ML 7 or ML 9 (for those needing to use Expanded Knowledge); Synch can be picked up (and used in this manner) from ML 1. Schism grants only a mental action; Synch grants any standard action. Schism's mental action is at -6 ML; Synch has no such limiter. Synch costs 7 pp but lasts rounds/ML, so when first obtained, so without an extra feat (Metapower), Schism gradually pulls ahead in terms of power cost, once you can finally manifest it, but by those levels (ML 7+), the power cost is rapidly becoming trivial: a 7th level Psion has 46 pp, plus at least 10 more for even a 16 intelligence. And with doubled action economy, I question how many battles will go beyond the 7 rounds necessary to realize the cost savings from Schism.

You also don't need PsiMed for Schism to work effectively, but you do need it for Linked Synch.
Agreed, it is needed for continuous Synch mechanics, but as already noted, any manifester who uses metapsionics, and even many who don't, will take Psionic Meditation, and probably do so quite early in their career. It is a given feat for psionicists, just as Adaptive Style is for swordsages. As such, it does not properly constitute a cost of these mechanics.

An extra standard action on each of your subsequent turns at level 1 isn't gamebreaking. You'll just nova and run dry that much more quickly.No. It's an extra standard action from 1st level, and at every level up, it only gets more powerful, because (a) the character's ability to do it longer increases (more pp), and (b) the potency of the character's additional standard actions increases.

EDIT: Summary, if there were a feat that allowed characters to take an extra standard action in their next round for the cost of 2 pp as a free action, would people take it? Can I say, "Yes" strongly enough? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html)

If they could reduce that cost to 1 pp for another feat, would people take that? Probably.

[Psyren]

First, this brokenness is just better with Metapower; Metapower is not essential to it, and the cost savings (1 pp) are trivial.

You keep using that word :smallannoyed:
Paying to delay an action is not broken. Spending a feat (or two!) AND paying to delay two actions is also not broken.

Actions are desirable and highly useful, I get that. But how exactly does Synchronicity elevate the level 1 psion to game-destroying levels? Or the level 7, once he is able to gain an action from doing so?


Second, Linked Power is so ideal for being Metapowered specifically because it easily circumvents the one-power limitation of Metapower: pick your favorite 1st level power and Metapower-Linked Power it. Nothing in RAW requires you to select the second linked power (the one that manifests in the following round). (This, imo, is a potent trick that is not broken; in fact, I recommend it.)

Metapower is applied to a power, not to a feat. You would not choose "Metapower (Linked Power)" - you would choose "Metapower (Synchronicity.) Doing so cuts off Metapower for everything else in your repertoire, and you must take the feat again to metapower anything else.

Synchronicity is a good choice for it, sure. But it's by no means the only power that could benefit from it, nor is it the most powerful/broken option.


Schism isn't available until ML 7 or ML 9 (for those needing to use Expanded Knowledge); Synch can be picked up (and used in this manner) from ML 1.

No, it can't. If you use Synchronicity at ML 1, you gain zero net actions. It is not until ML 7 that you can twin it, and that is when it is on equal footing with Schism.


Schism grants only a mental action; Synch grants any standard action.

Wrong again - Schism grants X mental actions, where X is your ML. The power is rounds/level.

Even if your DM rules that you can't counter the ML loss through Practiced Manifester, the duration of the power easily compensates for the reduced effectiveness of your second action. (There are other mental actions you can take besides manifesting anyway, e.g. concentrating on a power.)


Agreed, it is needed for continuous Synch mechanics, but as already noted, any manifester who uses metapsionics, and even many who don't, will take Psionic Meditation, and probably do so quite early in their career. It is a given feat for psionicists, just as Adaptive Style is for swordsages. As such, it does not properly constitute a cost of these mechanics.

It still has to be factored in for a power-level comparison. The fact that I can do without feat X if I really have to for a given strategy is always relevant - particularly if we're looking at things like PrC qualification that require you to take certain feats in order.


No. It's an extra standard action from 1st level, and at every level up, it only gets more powerful, because (a) the character's ability to do it longer increases (more pp), and (b) the potency of the character's additional standard actions increases.

Again, no it isn't. It is only an EXTRA action if you Twin/Link/Quicken it - see above.

[Stegyre]

You keep using that word :smallannoyed:
Paying to delay an action is not broken. Spending a feat (or two!) AND paying to delay two actions is also not broken.
The whole point is that you are not paying to delay an action. You are paying a nominal point cost to gain an additional action.

Twin Power example (the more expensive variant):
"I'm going to Twin Power my Synchronicity; I'm subtracting the 7 pp. Oh look, by RAW, I now have two standard actions this turn, both of which I may delay without having to specify triggering conditions."

"Delay them? Forget that! Here's my triggering condition: 'Right now!'"

"Let's see, first action, maybe a good blasty power. Energy Missile away!"

"Second action? How about I avoid any retaliation by making myself invisible? I still haven't even used my move action, yet, so I'll just wander over to a quiet corner to wait for next turn. Or maybe I'll use my Psionic Meditation to regain my focus, so I can have this much fun next turn, too!"

And that's by no means a highly-optimized example. I leave that to those who are expert in the field.
Linked Power example:
"I'm going to manifest Precognition, a nice utility power for a floating +2 insight bonus I can use anywhere, and after I make my die roll. For kicks, I'm going to expend my focus and link it to Synchronicity, which will go off next round. (For kicks, I may even use my move action and Psionic Meditation to regain focus. Who knows? I might want to expend it again, next round.)"

(Next round) "Oh, look: now, in addition to my usual full turn's worth of actions, Synchronicity is manifesting, which by RAW gives me another standard action, which I may ready blah-blah-blah. My triggering condition is right now. Whee! Two standad actions in the same turn for the cost of only 1 extra pp last turn!"


Metapower is applied to a power, not to a feat. You would not choose "Metapower (Linked Power)" - you would choose "Metapower (Synchronicity.) Doing so cuts off Metapower for everything else in your repertoire, and you must take the feat again to metapower anything else.

Actually, Metapower (by RAW) is applied to a metapsionic feat + power combination. So you choose Metapower (Linked Power + . . . ) and it really doesn't matter if you put Precognition, Vigor, Synchronicity or something else in for the ellipses, so long as it is a personal power (because linked powers must have the same target).

What matters is not what power Metapower joins to Linked Power. In this context, Synchronicity doesn't do anything for you in the first position, where it manifests in the current turn. You want it to manifest in the next turn, where (by poorly-written RAW) it then grants you an extra standard action.

So choose my favorite: Metapower (Linked Power - Precognition), because I can always use a +2 bonus for something. And each time, the second power you link to is Synchronicity.


No, it can't. If you use Synchronicity at ML 1, you gain zero net actions. It is not until ML 7 that you can twin it, and that is when it is on equal footing with Schism.
Already addressed. I can indeed link and get an extra action at ML 1. The benefit I gain later by using Twinning, instead, is that I don't have a one-round delay to get my extra action.

Wrong again - Schism grants X mental actions, where X is your ML. The power is rounds/level.
You're at least one post behind. I already pointed this fact out in the post you were responding to, and with analysis, it really isn't worth all that much.

Schism: you get your first extra, mental-only, ML-nerfed action this turn. Pay 7 pp now, and it will last ML turns. You do not need to expend your focus.

Linked-Synchronicity:
Please don't make me explain this yet another time: when I say "Linked-Synchronicity, I mean Linked Power (something fun this turn) + Synchronicity next turn. That's how Linked Power works. That's the configuration in which Synchronicity provides the benefit that we're talking about. It is irrelevant nonsense to say, "But if you're manifesting Synchronicity this turn, it doesn't do you any good." you get your first extra, completely unlimited standard action next turn. You pay 2 pp now, or only 1 if you Metapowered the combination. Over 7 turns, you will spend the same as you would for Schism for an unequivocally better benefit. If the battle goes less than 7 turns, you actually come out ahead on the cost with Synchronicity.

You do have to keep recovering your focus for the Synchronicity mechanic. At worst, this means you're only able to do it every other turn. In that sense, it's like Celerity: I'm taking two actions now and forfeiting my next action. Let's just point out that Celerity is yet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9800539&highlight=celerity+broken#post9800539) another (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9690627&highlight=celerity+broken#post9690627) widely (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9657296&highlight=celerity+broken#post9657296) regarded as "broken" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9357399&highlight=celerity+broken#post9357399). (Poor wizards! You don't get Celerity until 7th level; the lowly psionicist is doing it at 1st.) More likely, the character will have Psionic Meditation, and so he is able to do this every round at the cost of his move action.

[Psyren]

Whee!

I know it's good. What I don't see is what makes it broken.

We'll probably get further if you define the term, since you're the one ascribing it. Powerful != broken.


Actually, Metapower (by RAW) is applied to a metapsionic feat + power combination.

You do realize that makes it even weaker? I can only Metapower a very specific combination of metapsionic and power per feat.



What matters is not what power Metapower joins to Linked Power. In this context, Synchronicity doesn't do anything for you in the first position, where it manifests in the current turn. You want it to manifest in the next turn, where (by poorly-written RAW) it then grants you an extra standard action.


So what? Why is that such a big deal to you?


Already addressed. I can indeed link and get an extra action at ML 1. The benefit I gain later by using Twinning, instead, is that I don't have a one-round delay to get my extra action.

Which requires you to have both feats at level one, plus a third (PM) if you plan to do it repeatedly. How is that broken?

And that difference in power is represented by Twinning being more expensive - as it should be.


Please don't make me explain this yet another time:

I'm not asking you to explain how the combination works. I'm asking you to explain why a combo that requires at least two feats (and more to be repeatable) is so world-shatteringly overpowered that it needs to be nerfed.

[Stegyre]

I know it's good. What I don't see is what makes it broken.

We'll probably get further if you define the term, since you're the one ascribing it. Powerful != broken.
Specific to this context, something is "broken" if it is overpowered (perhaps grossly overpowered) for its level. We do have spells and powers that break the action economy. We have items that do so (Belt of Battle). These give a very good assessment of when a character should be able to do that and the cost of doing so.

Celerity and Schism both expressly break the action economy. There can be no question that RAW and RAI characters can use these to get more actions in a turn than they otherwise would. Both of these spells/powers are 4th level (indicating the characters should be at least 7th level before they are able to do this), and both are widely regarded as very powerful to the point of potentially breaking the game.

We can do as good, and quite arguably better, with a 1st level power and a minimal feat investment.

And it is a minimal investment, particularly as all of the feats involved have utility beyond just this mechanic.
Psionic Meditation has already been discussed. Linked Power may be used to link any two powers and get some action economy, although not nearly as good.

Metapower (Linked Power - some 1st level power) can be used to get -2 pp off the cost of any power you care to have manifest second. Just to allow us to continue chaining Synchronicities though, let's put Synchronicity there. Now, we can do our Synchronicity mechanic linking Synchronicity - Synchronicty. The first Synchronicity doesn't really do anything for us. Ho, hum! But the combined cost is only 1 pp, so who cares?

When were not doing this mechanic, we might go Synchronicity (wasted) - Vigor augmented for 2, at a total cost of 1 pp and get 10 THP. Or we go Synchronicity - Animal Affinity, and get the Animal Affinity boost for only 2 pp instead of the usual 3.

Even without this cheesy mechanic, a character has a strong incentive to pick up these feats.


You do realize that makes it even weaker? I can only Metapower a very specific combination of metapsionic and power per feat.
Yes, I am simply correcting your mis-description of it. Despite this fact, no one (to my knowledge) considers Metapower "weak." It's one of the better feats for a psionic to have.


So what? Why is that such a big deal to you?
Extra actions tend to be a big deal. People will plop down several thousand gold for a belt of battle that will give them one extra standard action a day. The action economy is a key part of combat. If you can break the action economy, you will win.


Which requires you to have both feats at level one, plus a third (PM) if you plan to do it repeatedly. How is that broken?
It is a heavy feat investment for 1st level, but a doable one, and well worth it. Overall, a two- or three-feat investment, that has applications beyond just this mechanic, is trivial. Most melee combos require at least two feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026), and they don't offer as good a return.

It is less important that one can do this by 1st level (although I take this as a strong indication that WotC had no clue as to the implications of this power), than it is that this mechanic simply gets better every level thereafter:

Make this character 7th level, and give him Schism, too. Now, he manifests this mechanic from his schismed brain (pp cost 1). He gets two regular standard actions, a move action (used to regain his focus), and the schismed standard action (which he can use to keep powering this mechanic. Manifesting two more powers each turn with those two standard actions, he'll burn through pp twice as fast as normal, but that's what the pp are for. The character with no pp whose still alive at the end of the battle is much better of than the dead guy who still has half of his pp.


And that difference in power is represented by Twinning being more expensive - as it should be.
No one is arguing that point, but it only matters in the first round. After the first round, linked Synchronicity may substitute for twinning and, at least for low level powers, is actually better: you have a lower power cost (the second power's actual cost, instead of +6); you can choose different powers; and you can choose different targets.


I'm not asking you to explain how the combination works. I'm asking you to explain why a combo that requires at least two feats (and more to be repeatable) is so world-shatteringly overpowered that it needs to be nerfed. Tell us any other way to get an extra action this cheaply or this soon, or even close to this cheaply, or close to this soon. The best you've been able to offer is Schism, which is not as good and not nearly so early.

If a high level spell (Celerity) or power (Schism) is so good that it's regarded as "broken," and you can achieve the same or better effect at a lower level and a lower cost, that's "more broken." It's really as simple as that.

[Psyren]

Extra actions tend to be a big deal. People will plop down several thousand gold for a belt of battle that will give them one extra standard action a day. The action economy is a key part of combat. If you can break the action economy, you will win.

And this particular tactic gives you a bonus standard action once. To repeat it, you need to give up your move actions in exchange, plus the cost of two feats. I really don't see what all the fuss is about.


If a high level spell (Celerity) or power (Schism) is so good that it's regarded as "broken," and you can achieve the same or better effect at a lower level and a lower cost, that's "more broken." It's really as simple as that.

Neither Celerity nor Schism need your move actions to be used repeatedly. They also don't cost two feats.

Synchronicity is strong, but not broken.

[term1nally s1ck]

Synchronicity is the reason that Psions can nova so easily. With clever usage, you can gain infinite actions, and ALL the ways of doing so involve synchronicity.

Affinity Field and Fission, sharing it with your Psicrystal who can recover the Psionic focus needed to use another Meta'd-synchronicity, which will provide even more actions and scary things.

It's not at low levels it's broken in its current form, it's at mid-high, when it makes the action economy a minor inconvenience and nothing more.

However, the proposed change doesn't really make it clear that linked power wouldn't work. Wording needs tweaking.

[Psyren]

Affinity Field and Fission

Those two are the true culprits in "infinite-X" discussions.

[term1nally s1ck]

They're only abuseable by using synchronicity.

And hey, Share power with your psicrystal or other friendly and cute pet, take the 2 feats that allows it to regain your focus as a move action, and you can spam twinned synchronicities for infinite actions. You're not going to try and claim that psicrystals are the true culprit here, surely?

[Psyren]

They're only abuseable by using synchronicity.

No, there's a dozen Affinity Field loops out there. Yours isn't even the most original.



And hey, Share power with your psicrystal or other friendly and cute pet, take the 2 feats that allows it to regain your focus as a move action, and you can spam twinned synchronicities for infinite actions. You're not going to try and claim that psicrystals are the true culprit here, surely?

It can't regain your focus, you have to do that. It can only regain its own focus if you give it Wild/Hidden Talent and Psionic Meditation, which requires you to give it +3 Wis and 7 ranks in Concentration; otherwise, you have to use an action to do it.

Because of this, you can give your psicrystal an abritrarily larger number of actons this way, but not yourself. All of your bonus actions go into refocusing.

And yes, share power is problematic. You can share Affinity Field and share Schism with your psicrystal too for more bonus actions. Synchronicity is not unique in this regard by any means.

[term1nally s1ck]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psicrystalContainment

Erm...yeah.

And I'm not aware of any other loops through affinity field nor fission. The 3rd level or lower limit on field blocks anything bar synch, and fission is limited by not stacking.

[Psyren]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psicrystalContainment

Erm...yeah.

Yes, that is a feat you have to take. Your psicrystal has no manifester level, it cannot take that feat.

[term1nally s1ck]

Between that, and 2 feats for your psicrystal, it can recover your focus for you, and with Synchronicity provide infinite actions. 2 feats and 2 for your companion is not a balancing factor for one power being able to provide infinite actions.

[Psyren]

Between that, and 2 feats for your psicrystal, it can recover your focus for you,

No it can't. You can recover your own focus to store within it, with your actions. It cannot do so itself, barring the very convoluted method I described.

[term1nally s1ck]

Wild talent and Psionic Meditation? Not too hard to give it.

The feat allows you to use a psionic focus stored in a psicrystal, and provides a way to put one there yourself.

Allowing a Psicrystal to recover one itself lets it store a psionic focus in itself, which you can already use as per Containment.

[Psyren]

Wild talent and Psionic Meditation? Not too hard to give it.

You need to give it +3 Wis and 7 ranks in Concentration, as I said. (Which, oddly enough, isn't a class skill for Psicrystals.)

And honestly? If you're going to go to those lengths just to break Synchronicity, you'll go to those lengths to break anything. You'd be the kind of player that breaks even Samurai. Nerfing the power won't curtail a player like that; you need to sit down and have a talk with them.

[term1nally s1ck]

A single buff on yourself shared with the psicrystal would be enough to do the Wis, and skill ranks are pretty simple to give at the levels when this would be happening. Also, lol at not on the class list...try again. Read how a psicrystal of a Psion gets skills.

There's about 10 ways to break synchronicity. It's an ok power for its intended use, and ANY attempt to use it in a better way causes things that completely imbalance the game to occur. Plus, the kind of powers that are broken in combination are powers you'd naturally combine anyway. Affinity field and fission is a natural combo.

Affinity field and another psion is a natural combo to use.

Getting your psicrystal too recover your psionic focus is a clever, but completely non-broken trick. It's absolultely fine....unless you use synchronicity.

The problem with synchonicity is that it turns powerful but fair combinations of abilties into overpowered and ridiculous combinations of abilities. That is why it is the power that is most often banned and why a fix would be so useful. You DON'T need to try for it to kill the game, I've seen people completely new to D&D figure out how to do at least one of them.

[imperialspectre]

Hold on. Seriously, stop everything.

Discussions of "brokenness" are entirely relative in nature. You can't assert that Synchronicity + metapsionics is broken because of the capabilities it grants unless you compare those capabilities with other classes.

In this case, there's no doubt that "get extra actions" is something that you simply can't do as a non-caster (I realize that ToB characters are able to dip their toes in the ocean of action economy shenanigans, but that's about it). That's why we have a tier system, though. Non-casters, at their best, can usually only play at the same level as list casters (beguiler, dread necromancer, and of course anytime they want with warmages) and bards.

So, if you're going to compare Synchronicity-psions with other classes, you should probably be comparing them to classes in the same tier range. Sorcerers get Celerity and Arcane Fusion one level after psions get Twin Synchronicity (yeah, psions can use more feats to make it accessible a level or two earlier, but sorcerers also have Sanctum Spell, Versatile Spellcaster, Dragonwrought Kobolds, etc). Favored Souls can access some of the same tricks sorcerers can, although they're generally at the bottom of Tier 2 in terms of action economy. Later on in the game, casters get access to Shapechange, which is substantially better than any psionic analogue and gives additional action economy tricks (as well as Genesis, which in its psionic version doesn't allow time dilation fields).

A tier level higher, Wizards have so many defense modes that they're generally considered better than Sorcerers and Psions even though they have fewer easy action economy tricks. Clerics have free quickens if they want them, or free persistent buffs, as well as easy access to the Ruby Knight Windicator. Archivists have the cleric tricks (with a dip in Sacred Exorcist or something similar), as well as various tricks to grab arcane spells that give action economy access. Druids, of course, are two characters for the price of one to start with.

Oh, and all Tier 1 characters get free respecs every day because of either massive spellbooks or automatic access to spells from every single published 3.5 book ever (except ToB, because I don't recall it having any spells).

A tier level lower, Beguilers and Dread Necromancers have limited access to the action economy, and Psychic Warriors have fewer powers to exploit it with. Factotums have insane action economy shenanigans (far better than Synchronicity, and accessible right around the same level as Twin Synchronicity), but again have fewer ways to exploit those tricks. ToB characters have some action economy tricks (White Raven Tactics, Time Stands Still, etc), but do not do things that are as strong as their spellcasting counterparts. A Synchronicity-using psion is certainly stronger than Tier 3 characters, but that's expected.

The bottom line is, you're off-base to assert that a power is "broken" simply because it's vastly more powerful than some characters have access to. Everybody with a tiny scrap of knowledge on the subject already knows that psions > fighters. That's not news. If suddenly a trick makes psions >>>> wizards? Then we can talk.

Until then, if you want to line-item ban Tier 2 class abilities so they can play nice with Tier 4 characters, feel free. But don't assert that the Tier 2 classes are "broken" any more than the Tier 4 and below classes are.

[Godskook]

imperialspectre, generally well reasoned.

However, here's the thing, most of what you reference is *also* broken. So saying "this isn't broken cause its similar to these other, broken, things" is hilarious.

And by broken, I'm using Test of Spite as a base line. I mean, hell, a good chunk of what you mentioned makes it onto the list directly, and everything else action-economy-wise is nerfed in the "Great Rules"


The bottom line is, you're off-base to assert that a power is "broken" simply because it's vastly more powerful than some characters have access to. Everybody with a tiny scrap of knowledge on the subject already knows that psions > fighters. That's not news. If suddenly a trick makes psions >>>> wizards? Then we can talk.

This I find to be patently false.

The difference between tier 2 and tier 1, power-wise, is negligible if even noticeable at all. The primary distinguishing factor is that a sorcerer can't change what his version of powerful is. However, for the discussion of that ability, a sorcerer is just as, or in some cases more, powerful than a wizard. To use Jaronk's metaphor, they both have nukes, and the tier difference is merely quibbling over how many each gets.

Finally, its my opinion that a loop in D&D is *ALWAYS* broken, and it doesn't matter who gets it. The Lightning Maces + Aptitude Weapon combo was broken, and was intended for melee characters.

[Rad]

A combo (or power) is also broken if you get too much more than any other similar expenditures of resources would yield. There is a vast gulf between the capabilities of a psion that uses this trick and those of one who doesn't (while still using their resources in a sensible way; I'm not comparing with a psion that decides to use his standard action to pick up a shiny stone, just with some that makes a different use of their powers).

@ Term1nally s1ck: the change removes the fact that the power grants an action, changing it to "it allows you to ignore this restrictions which normally hold on readied actions". This way you can manifest it as many times as you like but, it's like manifesting multiple times, say, invisibility: you're already invisible and multiple copies aren't relevant.

[term1nally s1ck]

Any ability which has the ability to completely break and ruin a campaign is, in my opinion, broken.

An ability which by itself completely changes the power level of that character is very much broken. A Psion without synchronicity is still good, but isn't insane anymore. A DM can deal with it without having to completely change encounters, over-optimise his own encounters, or over-challenging the party.

Nobody is arguing that wizards and other Tier 1 casters aren't broken, because if played at TO level, they completely ruin a game for anything that's not a Tier 1 caster. The problem is that this one power is anti-fun. It turns every game you attempt to play into either rocket tag, divination wars, or a 'Can I find something immune to everything he can do' game.

EDIT: As for the linked power thing, I realise now. You can still use linked power to manifest a dozen or so powers on the next turn, but it's better than normal.

[Psyren]

Any ability which has the ability to completely break and ruin a campaign is, in my opinion, broken.


"The potential to break a campaign" can be ascribed to tons of different spells and class combinations. Are you going to ban/rewrite them all?

*I* define broken as "there is no way to use this legitimately" and Synchronicity does not qualify.

If your players are going to use this abusively, they're going to find ways to break the game no matter what restrictions you employ. Rewrite the entire XPH and CPsi if you think that's efficient... Houserule until the Wheel of Time stops turning. Me, I'd rather just play with people who don't bring TO to the gaming table.

Look at all the steps someone has to go through to get free bonus actions out of this thing. You need either Linked Power or Twin Power; for the former, you then need one application of Metapower and wait a round to "go off," or you need two applications of Metapower to "go off" for free in the same round with the latter. And all that is just to do the trick once - to repeat it, you need Psionic Meditation, plus a psicrystal to share it with. You've invested all that into your trick, for what? To prove that Psions are T2? To "win D&D?"

Players can break anything if they try hard enough, even T5 classes. If yours don't have the restraint not to do so, why play D&D at all?

Also, major kudos to imperialspectre.

[term1nally s1ck]

No, I'm going to ban and get rid of the abilties that can break the game without people even trying. Gate, Thought Bottle, etc, etc. Synchronicity is among that list, unless you (as I have done in the NED) kill off infinite PP loops.

Then, I'll ask people to not force me to ban anything else, and check their sheets before they play.

[Psyren]

I disagree - you do have to TRY to break Synchronicity.

As written - you trade your standard for a standard. Anything more than that requires blowing feats/building your character specifically to exploit the spell. Gate does not. To even compare them is ridiculous.

[term1nally s1ck]

Gate requires you to intend to abuse the one-command trick to lower saves, or chain-gate. Otherwise it's good, but doesn't kill off the game.

Synch requires you to have a metamagic feat or two and to try using it with the meta feat, or to use buffs you'd naturally combine anyway, or to use a very old trick to help with the psionic focus.

[Psyren]

Gate requires you to intend to abuse the one-command trick to lower saves, or chain-gate. Otherwise it's good, but doesn't kill off the game.

Gate is broken because it lets you pull through epic monsters (2x your HD) pre-epic. It requires no feat expenditure to do so.

Pulling through multiple creatures = your class level, or the travel function, are fine. Pulling through one monster = your class level, also fine.

I question your notion of "naturally combine." The people who would "naturally" try to twin/link synchronicity for free actions and stabilize the loop through psicrystal shenanigans are precisely the people that would seek to break a game regardless of precautions taken.

[candycorn]

That argument falls very quickly: Schism, widely regarded as a GREAT power, is a 4th level power and not as good. Furthermore, one can link Synchronicity, either to itself or to another 1st level power and get the same effect, only delayed a round, for only 2 power points, less than a 2nd level power.Not as good? Really?
Let's look at that.

3 rounds, assume psion 7 for both.
Round 1: Schism guy manifests schism (7pp)
Round 1: Synch guy manifests twin synch (7pp), and 2 powers (7pp, 7pp)
Round 2: Schism guy manifests one strong power (7pp), one weak power (1pp).
Round 2: Synch guy manifests twin synch (7pp), and 2 powers (7pp, 7pp)
Round 3: Schism guy manifests one strong power (7pp), one weak power (1pp).
Round 3: Synch guy manifests twin synch (7pp), and 2 powers (7pp, 7pp)

Synch guy got one more action, and 3 of his actions were more powerful, at the expense of his move actions (to refocus), and an extra 14pp in round 1, 13pp in round 2, and 13 pp in round 3. Why? Because he has to keep paying 7 a round to get the benefit, and schism pays once for the fight.

Now, in this fight: Schism guy spent 23pp, or about a third of his PP, with decent power slinging, and no feat investment.
Synch guy spent... 63pp, or just about everything a level 7 psion will have, WITH a good ability score.

Now, is the ability to sling one a higher level power per round (effective level 1 vs effective level 4), and 1 extra power over the fight duration worth tripling your PP expenditure? I think not.

And yes, a Synch psion can use weaker powers to lower cost, but that forfeits the main advantage Synch gets over Schism. In fact, even lowering one of those powers all the way to ML 1, you're STILL paying an extra 7pp per round for your privilege.


Be a human or take a flaw and get Linked Power and Metapower (Linked Power - Synchronicity), and you can be breaking the action economy for 1 pp/turn from level 1. Get Psionic Meditation for another flaw, and you can do it turn after turn, as long as the pps last.

It's not pun-pun, but it's broken. :smalltongue:As long as PP's last will be about 2 uses of that.... For the rest of the encounters? He'll be a really bad crossbowman.

Also, you must expend your focus to use your metasynch.... No matter what. Which means that your human now must spend a full round action before he can repeat his trick at level 1. And if he doesn't have his focus? He can't use synch at all.

[imperialspectre]

Ok, let's be fair. I love combining things in crazy forms (although most of the Anticipatory Strike/Synchronicity hax in ToS were done by the much-missed Phoenix), but that doesn't mean I try to break IRL games. There's a difference between finding cool stuff out and using it abusively.

Godskook:

Actually, aside from Shapechange and Genesis, literally none of the things I mentioned made it to the ToS banlist. I checked while writing the post. Sure, the cap on actions limited how much you could get away with, but not very restrictively.

Now on the Tier question, I think you're misunderstanding JaronK's argument about Tier 1 and Tier 2. The ability to respec a character on a daily basis makes you massively more powerful than a character that can do as much damage as you in one or two ways, chosen basically permanently. It's a matter of about 3 or 4 encounters to have a very solid understanding of a sorcerer's or psion's spell list at ToS level (level 13, for those who don't know). You can't gather conclusive intelligence on a wizard unless you finagle a look at the spellbook, and that's assuming there isn't a backup or outright second spellbook with more tricks. You can't gather any intelligence on a cleric's spellcasting abilities beyond highest spell level observed and "here's the 3.5 book list, take your pick."

Sure, wizards can't switch out their feat build every day, without an XP cost. So any new spell combination they come up with in the morning has to work with their existing feat list or they have to Chaos Shuffle. And if you think that's a meaningful limit on their ability to completely outmaneuver Tier 2 classes, take 5 while the rest of us laugh maniacally.

Edit: Yeah, I also wasn't sure that Synchronicity > Schism. Schism has some really nice applications, the most significant one being that it's fire-and-forget. It's much like getting an Arcane Spellsurge off at the beginning of the fight - you're going to have a substantial action economy advantage from the beginning of the fight onward.