Playable Supermounters: anyone tried?

[Azernak0]

Has anyone ever played a Supermount type build before? What I mean is play a character that has less power than his friend, ala Back to School's Lou.
"Oh, no, no. I never get physical. I just get upset. And when I get upset, HE gets physical." How effective is the build? Most of the ones I have seen are pretty weak until about level 9. Is the build actually possible or is it just theoretical?

[Sir Swindle89]

Pathfinder's summoner class is basically all about that. It's pretty fun.

[Urpriest]

I've played a couple sessions of one at level 14. It was fun on paper, but the DM was more than a little zany so it ended up not being particularly relevant. I feel like it would be fun in a better run campaign though.

[Azernak0]

Any suggested builds that work decently at most levels?

[Coidzor]

An Animal Companion or Wild Cohort is the best you can start off with right off the bat.

And although paladin is the standard way to go, there is the Waverider PrC from Savage Species (need mounted combat and mounted archery, BAB+5 and aquatic subtype and some skill ranks) which gets a special mount that depends upon ECL rather than class level, so it requires less maintenance than paladin's special mount, but also is harder to boost, I think, though halfling outrider may actually be triple dipping with +1 to ECL, +1 to level for mount, and +1 to level for animal companion. If you can get mount transparency from the DM and an appropriately sub-typed dragon, and the aquatic subtype in a way that doesn't cripple your character, though I believe the Amphibious template from Stormwrack does this quite nicely. This is how the currently most monstrous of ubermounts works.

I believe part of the problem is that most of the feats can't really be obtained at level 1 (though I think with retraining the level 1 feats+flaws could be brought to bear). Then again, I think mounted combat and mounted archery could be taken at 1st level, which would clear that away.

Let's see. So, your options are Fey Bard (Unearthed Arcana Variant) and Druid at level 1 for an animal companion. Or you can take a wild cohort to tide you over for a bit and either be a backup singer for you or be retrained into a different feat.

A dip into cloistered cleric will unlock prestige paladin and allowing one to snag 2 domains and knowledge devotion/domain.

Take precocious apprentice at level 1 on a fey bard, take two more levels of bard for obtain familiar at 3rd level, take 3 levels of druid and either theurgic bond or another appropriate feat, now you qualify for arcane hierophant at level 7, take 1 level of that, then dip cloistered cleric and skip into Prestige Paladin at level 9 taking holy mount... Hmm. x.x Getting something better than vanilla AC benefits or Animal Companion+Beastmaster before level 9 is tricky.

Might have to dump fey bard and go with wizard 1 + precocious apprentice, druid 3, beastmaster 1, wizard2ordruid4(for enough BAB to qualify for arcane hierophant), arcane hierophant 1, cloistered cleric 1, prestige paladin 1.

Or, abandoning familiar progession entirely... Fey bard 1, Paladin of Freedom 5 (with Harmonious Knights substitution level to get back Inspire Courage) with devoted tracker as the 6th level feat and then going on to grab halfling outrider and the appropriate feat to let one trade in one's paladin mount for a dragon(dragon mount? dragon steed?). Or if Harmonious Knight can be used with Prestige Paladin of Freedom... Fey bard 3, Cloistered Cleric 1, Beastmaster 1, a level of anything to get +1 BAB, Prestige Paladin 1, Halfling outrider X

Need: Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery(might discuss nixing that requirement for the PrC since you're... not going to be using it at all or at least changing it to something appropriate), Devoted Tracker for double dipping through halfling outrider, Track to qualify for Devoted Tracker

Gravy: Theurgic mount for +3 levels to effective paladin level, Dragon Steed to get progressively better dragons available.

Take holy or arcane mount, depending, and arcane hierophant will advance mount. Or both.

[Azernak0]

Are those builds useful before level 10, when you can use Dragon Steed, though? It almost seems like these kinds of builds are only theoretical. :smallmad:

[Coidzor]

Are those builds useful before level 10, when you can use Dragon Steed, though? It almost seems like these kinds of builds are only theoretical. :smallmad:

Well, it takes levels in order to get the set up in place to have a super mount. You can have a perfectly serviceable mount that scales up with you as you level with just the feat Wild Cohort though. Dragon steed grants all of the benefits of being a special mount to your Dragonnel at effective paladin level 9. Or you could get a Griffon at effective paladin level 8 using the rules in the back of the DMG. Of course, you could extrapolate from there with your DM about creatures suitable for being a variant special mount as well.

And it depends upon your definition of "useful," as well, since a regular animal companion is regarded as the equal of a fighter. So you're taking a fighter and making it better. And also on your definition of "possible," as many DMs will blanche at a supermount being proposed to them.

If you've read through the Supermount (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866958/Supermount!) thread, then you may have spotted JaronK's contributions towards the middle to the end. I believe one of his was considered especially viable.

If you want a real theoretical build, look up early entry tricks and have a bard mentor that has Inspire Greatness on your payroll to use the hit dice gained from that to qualify for skill-ranks requirements before one would normally be able to do so.

Or just look up the beast that is the world record ubermount (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142554).

[Akal Saris]

Well, they are playable from 1-20, but they aren't too powerful before level 9 or 12, when the double-stacking from halfling outrider or hierophant begins to ramp up. And by late levels (17+), even having a 26 HD wyrmling dragon still won't match up to being a full caster :P

I played a variant of the supermount in E6, and it was quite enjoyable. I'd recommend going for it if you want to be the party's frontliner/tank.

Also, I'd avoid trying to optimize the creature as a familiar on top of the AC and the mount. Familiar levels give little to no benefits compared with the other two.

[Coidzor]

Well, they are playable from 1-20, but they aren't too powerful before level 9 or 12, when the double-stacking from halfling outrider or hierophant begins to ramp up. And by late levels (17+), even having a 26 HD wyrmling dragon still won't match up to being a full caster :P

I played a variant of the supermount in E6, and it was quite enjoyable. I'd recommend going for it if you want to be the party's frontliner/tank.

Also, I'd avoid trying to optimize the creature as a familiar on top of the AC and the mount. Familiar levels give little to no benefits compared with the other two.

Yeah, I believe I saw a thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5424.0) where you mentioned a build that did Pally of Freedom 5 with Noble Heart substitution levels + 1 level of fey bard to get devoted tracker at 6th. Retrain a lower-level feat into natural bond and that's 4th level AC and 6th level pally mount at 6th level... with a second level spell if you start with fey bard and precocious apprentice.

If Champions of Valor substitution levels are allowed to be mixed, unlikely, but, hey, you could even get back your inspire courage maybe get some dragonfire inspiration on your beastie.

[Azernak0]

I've been reading over all the threads I can find and there seems to be some confusion. Some people suggest taking Dragonsteed ACF from Dragon Magic. Dragon Steed is a feat from Draconomicon and Drakkensteed Mount is a ACF from Dragon Magic. Which is better to get?

[sonofzeal]

I made this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5082551&postcount=17) a while ago, never got to play it. The idea was that the "mount" is actually, for all intents and purposes, the character. The "rider" isn't even really part of the campaign. It's rules-fuzzy, but the result seems surprisingly decent. I'd expect it to be reasonable in a fairly high-op level 12 game.

[Coidzor]

I've been reading over all the threads I can find and there seems to be some confusion. Some people suggest taking Dragonsteed ACF from Dragon Magic. Dragon Steed is a feat from Draconomicon and Drakkensteed Mount is a ACF from Dragon Magic. Which is better to get?

Drakkensteed is a step up from the ordinary Paladin's mount, as it can fly and it has a bite attack so you could give it a mouthpick weapon to give it iterative attacks. Plus it could retrain its feats to get things like draconic auras due to its dragonblood subtype.

Dragon Steed lets one get a dragonnel and apply paladin's special mount abilities to it. IIRC, a dragonnel is more powerful than a drakkensteed in and of itself, and as one levels up, more powerful forms of dragon can be traded up for, up to young gold dragon, I believe. With all the abilities thereof + extra mount HD and abilities.

The extra HD should be more dragon HD, though it depends upon interpretation whether those dragon HD will or will not advance the mount as a dragon(casting/age category, that sorta thing), the position that it does advance the dragon's age category is advocated by the ubermount build I linked to earlier, most, I imagine, will just have them be extra HD tacked on, just upping BAB, saves, HP, and skills.

So, if your campagin doesn't go past level 8, then Drakkensteed is superior, as it can be in play with special mount abilities from level 5. If you play at 9+, dragon steed is better. Though you can do both, you just trade in the drakkensteed for the dragonnel+ when you qualify.

[gorfnab]

Any suggested builds that work decently at most levels?

LG Strongheart Halfling
1. Paladin - Mounted Combat, Track
2. Paladin
3. Paladin - Skill Focus: Handle Animal (prereq for Beast Master)
4. Paladin
5. Paladin
6. Beastmaster - Devoted Tracker
7. Beastmaster
8. Wild Plains Outrider
9. Wild Plains Outrider - Mounted Archery
10. Wild Plains Outrider
11. Halfling Outrider
12. Halfling Outrider - Natural Bond
13. Halfling Outrider
14. Halfling Outrider
15. Halfling Outrider - Ride By Attack (or some other feat)
16. Halfling Outrider
17. Halfling Outrider
18. Halfling Outrider - Spirited Charge (or some other feat)
19. Halfling Outrider
20. Halfling Outrider

Special Mount: 18th level Paladin = Paladin 5 + Wild Plains 3 + Half-Out 10
Animal Companion: 18th level Druid = Beast Master 5 + Natural Bond 3 + Half-Out 10

Currently have someone playing this in my campaign. Just starting to hit its stride at 10th level. Because of flaws the character has Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, so it's actually decent for mobile artillery support. The mount (magebred warbeast riding dog, trained for war-tripping) is great for scouting, tracking, and guarding.

[Coidzor]

Alternatively, if you want to achieve ~ Tier 2-3
Human/Strongheart Halfling. Fey Bard 7/Paladin of Freedom(w/Noble Heart Paladin Substitution Level 3)5/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso6
Racial: ???
1: Natural Bond
3: Obtain Familiar
6:Devoted Tracker
9: Theurgic Mount
12: Theurgic Bond
15: ??? Dragon Steed?
18: ??? (improved familiar?)

Mount-Companion:
Level 18 Animal Companion
Level 20 for Special Mount

Familiar:
Level 15 Familiar

That leaves 3-4 feats flexible enough to be opened up for things to support the bard/use the turn undead. Sadly only gets 8th level spells, it's possible that an early entry trick could be used to get 3rd level spells in time to avoid losing that 9th level of sublime chord casting. Could use your spells to gish it up... Halfling probably is the only one that gets a dragon it can ride though.

Dragon Steed would need to be adapted to a brass or copper dragon for a suitable mount. I believe there's a feat that would give such a dragon alternate form if such would be desired. This would make you basically a sorcerer in mithril armor who has a beatstick who can also cast and use those sorts of items.

Leader of the Pack from the Fey Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/3CsX278ZDGQQ62al3RP.html) article in combination with Dragonfire inspiration could be nice. Especially if one can be a strongheart glimmerskin halfling or just be a silverbrow human and still have a rideable mount... or don't want to actually ride the mount so the size is of no real concern.

messing around some more with prestige paladin as a base...
Cleric 5/Beastmaster 1/Prestige Paladin 2/PrCs
Racial:
1st:
3rd:
6th: Natural Bond
9th: Devoted Tracker
12th: Holy Mount
15th: Dragon Steed*
18th:

Mount 10 minimum
Animal Companion 7 minimum
3rd level cleric and paladin spells minimum
2 domains minimum

You have room to juggle casting and halfling outrider over 12 levels.

If you get up to 5th level cleric spells, that leaves 8 levels of halfling outrider for 5th level cleric+paladin casting, 18 Mount, 15 Animal Companion.

The launchpad loses 2 caster levels, one for the animal companion, and one for the mount. Which seems oddly fitting. Can afford to lose one more caster level with PrCs and still grab 9ths. Can't think of any way to use divine to boost the animal companion like Theurgic Bond does. Or any divine casting PrC that would advance animal companion other than Arcane Hierophant... or that could be qualified for with cleric casting.

Hmm... What divine PrCs advance animal companion other than arcane hierophant?

Hmm, abolisher requires non-chaotic but is otherwise quite promising (paladin of freedom+fey bard is a no, and druid only works with anarch to get a paladin special mount, IIRC); wavekeeper is any neutral... I believe wavekeeper can work on a druid/anarch, but then so would more druid, come to think of it, and better off that way too. x,x. Lion of Talisid requires NG which is out.

Hmm. If Sanctum Spell works with spontaneous casters like bards, sublime chord+arcane hierophant+holy mount+prestige anarch
Strongheart Halfling Fey Bard 1/Cleric1/Druid6/Prestige.Paladin2/Sublime.Chord1/Arcane.Hierophant8

(Using partial BAB)

Racial Precocious Apprentice
1st Fey Blood
3rd Sanctum Spell
6th natural bond
9th Devoted Tracker
12th Holy Mount
15th Theurgic Bond
18th Dragon Steed

1 fey bard 3/4
2 cleric 6/4 Planning Domain(Extend Spell bonus feat)
3 druid 9/4
4 druid 12/4
5 druid 15/4
6 druid 18/4 (+4 BAB)
7 Prestige Paladin(Anarch)
8 Prestige Paladin
9 wizard
10 druid
11 Sublime Chord
12-20 Arcane Hierophant

9th level sorcerer spells (no 3rd level and only one 2nd level)
7th level druid spells

5th level mount w/out feats (14 more levels with holy mount)
14th level animal companion w/out feats (theurgic bond gives 2 more, natural bond 3)

[SurlySeraph]

Hmm... What divine PrCs advance animal companion other than arcane hierophant?

Lion of Talisid (BoED) and Planar Shepherd.

[JaronK]

The one I made gave you an animal companion from level 1, as well as decent skills. But there's no way to get a "supermount" until a good bit later (9+). IIRC the base build was Fey Bard 6/Animal Domain Cleric 1/PrC Paladin of Freedom 2/PrC Ranger 1/Halfling Outrider 10. You don't even get a mount until level 9 (when it instantly gets combined with your animal companion), but you've got an okay animal companion until then at least. And then suddenly it takes off, so that when you're getting Halfling Outrider levels you get +2 Animal Companion and +1 Paladin Mount per level. The Theurgic Mount and Dragon Steed (taken at levels 12 and 15) cause this to go absolutely nuts.

But as a rule, yeah, supermounts take until the mid high levels to really get going.

JaronK