How to hide your soul

[Elfstone]

Is there any spell, or item that grants the ability to hide your soul from others? Because Im in a pvp game where one player has the ability to see through all types of concealment, because he can see your soul (gained by some demon like class feature)

Please Help.

Thanks in advance.

[Grelna the Blue]

Is there any spell, or item that grants the ability to hide your soul from others? Because Im in a pvp game where one player has the ability to see through all types of concealment, because he can see your soul (gained by some demon like class feature)

Please Help.

Thanks in advance.

There was a spell in 2nd Ed called Lifeproof (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19818078/Dragonlance_NPC_Characters?pg=6). See if the GM would allow you to update or adapt it.

[randomhero00]

Never heard of that before. You sure that's legit?

Just make the argument that "sure you can see my soul... but you can't see my body :D

[Elfstone]

DMs really good and he checks everything, so yeah Im sure. Don't know the specifics, only what Ive learned IC.

AS for the whole body soul thing, he can see my soul. Which is in my body....

Thanks for the spell, Ill see what the DM thinks. The power level isn't high enough to cast it yet. But maybe later.

[Amiel]

Can one cast trap the soul on oneself?

[hydraa]

can he see thru a thin sheet of lead? A lead-foil cap?

[randomhero00]

DMs really good and he checks everything, so yeah Im sure. Don't know the specifics, only what Ive learned IC.

AS for the whole body soul thing, he can see my soul. Which is in my body....

Thanks for the spell, Ill see what the DM thinks. The power level isn't high enough to cast it yet. But maybe later.

Yeah, but the soul isn't really defined. It could be a small pinpoint of energy. So he'd know the general square you're in but that's it. Everything else would still work. Its akin to Scent.

[Elfstone]

Yeah, but the soul isn't really defined. It could be a small pinpoint of energy. So he'd know the general square you're in but that's it. Everything else would still work. Its akin to Scent.

Hrm... I tried to hide from him, and rolled a 66 on my hide check. Then hes like oh no, I can see you.
I was like
WTF
Then he says "I can see your soul....."
So I assume its made to bypass those kinds of concealments and defines the soul, or however this ability works.

[randomhero00]

Hrm... I tried to hide from him, and rolled a 66 on my hide check. Then hes like oh no, I can see you.
I was like
WTF
Then he says "I can see your soul....."
So I assume its made to bypass those kinds of concealments and defines the soul, or however this ability works.

I highly doubt it is because that would be stronger than constant True Seeing. I have a feeling the ability is vague and he is taking the stronger interpretation of it.

edit: he can probably see souls because his type is meant to trade in souls, I don't think its meant as a combat ability. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it meant bodiless souls.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What about a spell that makes you appear to be of a different type to abilities that check for it. Essence of the Construct, is one. There's a similar spell that makes you appear to be undead. You might try one or the other of them if you can.

[Jothki]

Create a phylactary for yourself?

[Elfstone]

What about a spell that makes you appear to be of a different type to abilities that check for it. Essence of the Construct, is one. There's a similar spell that makes you appear to be undead. You might try one or the other of them if you can.
Thats a good idea... What level is the spell and can you link me to it?

As for being undead, no thanks. This is a drow campaign and it wouldn't work so well. And im apposed to it (apposed to being dead? Im never apposed. Except now)

[Tyger]

What game system is this from? I can't think of anything in D&D 3.5 that would allow this. As noted, that is more powerful than a perpetual True Seeing combined with an infinite Spot check and the negation of cover and concealment.... that's a huge flippin' ability to have.

Are you playing Epic level stuff?

[Elfstone]

Here is the game description.

If any of you know what Tome of awesome is, its allowed as well.
D&D 3.5+; Gestalt lvl 13 - 15; Forgotten Realms; Applications due: November 6th
Sheets: not required until a week after selection

This campaign is set in Menzoberranzan in the year 709 DR. It is a story of the struggles of Noble Houses. It is a story of dark elves in their native habitat. It is, hopefully, the story of intrigue and backstabbery. This campaign is 100% open to PvP.

I am looking for three to five Drow Houses, including one male-run Mercenary Guild. Each House will have a Matron, and up to four other players taking vital roles, Such as House Wizard, House Assassin, Weapon Master, and a couple of other priestesses, within the house.

Matrons are, in a way, Sub-DMs. They will be responsible for coming up with missions for their minions to go on. These may include patrols out in the outskirts of the city, raids on other houses, etc. Matrons usually act from the shadows, but in the event of a House War or other major happening, may come out and lead their house. Naturally, I am the final arbiter of rules disputes. In recognition to the additional work a Matron-Player will be undertaking, Matrons start out at two levels higher than everybody else. It is good to be the Queen. The Ruling Council will occasionally call for a surface raid, which will involve members of each house conducting, well, a surface raid.

There is a metaplot (or three) that may eventually be discovered that may become a major focus of the campaign. Initially, however, this campaign is “Sandbox”. Be proactive in the goals of your characters and the goals of your house. Also, this campaign exists in the same multi-verse as my other Campaign and PCs are expected to be in the same ballpark of power level. There may be a cross-over event, but not likely any time soon. Cameos may happen.

~ * ~

Details
Level: 13 or 15
Gestalt: LA / Racial HD allowed on one side. Fractional BAB / Saves.
Rule 11: Pre-mod Stats ranging from 7 to 18. You may have no more than two odds. And your total stat mods = 11. Example: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 17.
Alignments: Any,
Materials: XPH, Core, Tomes (links below in Spoiler), Forgotten Realms line, ToM, ToB: Bo9S, Completes, Races of, Libris Mortis, Lords of Madness,
On a case by case basis
Eberron line, Pathfinder, Trailblazer, most WotC books. All builds must be approved, regardless of source materials.
HP: Average +1 (+con) for each
Including 1st. I am done with random stats and HP in my games
level. To avoid confusion: d4: 3.5 (per level; keep track of your fractions, they add up); d6: 4.5; d8: 5.5; d10: 6.5; d12: 7.5
Races: Drow, Fey’ri, and Draegloth. Others may be allowed on a case by case basis. Still, this is a drow-centric campaign. I expect to see drow-centric applications. Interesting combat-slaves are the purview of Cohorts and Matron ran NPCs.
Classes: A staggering array of classes (base and PrC) available.
Drow Paragon: gives +1 level of cleric or wizard for each level (instead of just at 1st and 3rd).
Banned: Truenamer.
Feats: Everybody gains a
In addition to the standard feats at 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, etc. And in addition to any other bonus feats you are entitled to by classes, templates, etc
Bonus Feat per level. Regional (FR) Feats may only be taken at level 1. You may have up to two Regional Feats, don’t worry about meeting region requirements. You may only select a Tome Feat using your standard feat progression, with the exception of classes that give Tome Feats. No flaws or traits allowed.
Cohorts and Spawn: Rule 9 (as R11, but less so), Gestalt. Spawn are restricted by level as a Cohort.
Followers: Elite Array (before racial mods: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8); non-gestalt; Core PC classes.
Skills: no distinction between class and non-class skills. No synergies.

[Grollub]

I believe there is also a spell called Sever Lifeline. It's main use is for time travelling wizardy types, so they can't be screwed with "by erasing their past".

I think it has a similar effect to what you are looking for, but best to double check with your GM on his interpretation.

[Elfstone]

Thanks, I will.

So far he says nothing can beat soulsight(yet)..... =(

[Kelb_Panthera]

Thats a good idea... What level is the spell and can you link me to it?

As for being undead, no thanks. This is a drow campaign and it wouldn't work so well. And im apposed to it (apposed to being dead? Im never apposed. Except now)

Essence of the construct is in Races of Eberron, and only works for warforged. Sorry about that, I was going from memory. But there is Veil of Undeath, a Sorc/Wiz/Clr 8 spell. It'll allow you to do a very convincing act at being undead. It's in Libris Mortis and probably the spell compendium. A scroll wouldn't be too expensive at your level.

[Tyger]

Soulsight from Magic of Incarnum? That lasts for one turn and has a range of 5 feet per essentia invested in it. And it takes a move action to use, and is usable only once per day.

If he has found a way to persist that, its interesting.

[druid91]

Would your game happen to be run by someone called Drowbane?

[Elfstone]

Can you link me to sever lifeline?

And the Dm says undead have souls...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Can you link me to sever lifeline?

And the Dm says undead have souls...

Undead do have souls, but if your enemy is chasing someone he knows is alive, and runs into an undead he may think he's got the wrong guy. Alternatively summon up a swarm. One soul hidden amongst many could make a get-away a little easier.

[druid91]

Stop having a soul.

Become a lich, seal up your soul and then toss it someplace unpleasant.

Soul sight no longer works.

Wait you don't want undead. How's about becoming a half-golem? Immunity to slashing or piercing damage plus loss of soul. Of course you go completely mad with power.

[Elfstone]

I don't have any LA to spare else I would.

[druid91]

So is your game run by Drowbane on myth-weavers?

If so here is what you do. Get to sigil, find Someone called The Keeper.

Get the services of Isaac Blackwater. Maybe a few others.

[Jack_Simth]

Do you think you can make Misdirection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm) work?

Also:
By default, almost everything requires Line of Effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#lineofEffect) (note: Certain subschools of magic don't... but does his particular effect say it has that?). If you can deny him that, his trick stops working (of course, you also have trouble hitting him, but There Are Ways (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#burrowingPower) Around That (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/remoteViewing.htm)).

If you can get yourself the Construct type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType), you lose your soul.

[Elfstone]

So is your game run by Drowbane on myth-weavers?

If so here is what you do. Get to sigil, find Someone called The Keeper.

Get the services of Isaac Blackwater. Maybe a few others.

You got me. But im in the drow game and there is no sigil....

[Psyren]

Why are you hiding? Let him find your soul, but kick his ass when he does.

The resources you're investing into being undetectable, you may as well just spend on ways to curbstomp him when he attacks.

[Elfstone]

He has no spells, but very high AC (in the 44 range) and his attacks are really scary. I have seen him with a +63 to damage.
And my build is... an assassin... 11d6 death attack.
which requires him NOT to see me.
So my build has been nulled and I want payback.

[Psyren]

It sounds like hax to me. I advise a reroll.

Or since he can homebrew his soulsight ability, you deserve a homebrew ability of your own.

[Tyger]

Technically Darkstalker would work, as Soulsight states that it is a "limited form of blindsense" and Darkstalker specifies that you can hide from creatures with blindsense.

If the DM refuses that interpretation, I would respectfully ask for a homebrew feat. If he can pump up Soulsight that much for the other guy, he can certainly give you something similar.

[Elfstone]

The Dms point of view on this issue is that its a game with, about 25+ other people. And its only one guy. (IC it was mentioned that he gained this ability through demons, by journeying to hell).
I might ask him for a homebrew something.

[Tyger]

The Dms point of view on this issue is that its a game with, about 25+ other people. And its only one guy. (IC it was mentioned that he gained this ability through demons, by journeying to hell).
I might ask him for a homebrew something.

Did everyone else get an extremely powerful ability as part of their backstory as well? :smallbiggrin:

[ArcanistSupreme]

This ability kind of sounds like the Lifesight feat from Libris Mortis. Is the other guy undead?

[OracleofWuffing]

Put your soul in a bag of holding, poke the bag of holding with a toothpick, and your soul is lost forever. Um, granted, this will probably mean your soul won't enter any afterlives anytime soon... And your DM might not like the idea of a soulless body fighting the other player... But nobody's going to find that soul. Ever.

The :smalltongue: way around this is to say that you don't have a soul listed on your character sheet, so the opponent can't see it. I see that having an even smaller chance of flying, though.

Since there's over 25 other people, is there any way the DM might consider reseeding (like, giving the two of you different opponents)? By what you've said as far as builds involved, the fight seems decidedly lopsided, which usually doesn't make for fun pvp. It might just be "one guy," but it's the "one guy" who's built pretty much to counter your build. Then again, you'd probably just face him again sooner or later.

Otherwise, what are you looking at for Use Magic Device ranks, and what kind of rules does the DM have regarding wands and scrolls? UMD's still going to be subpar compared to a Wizard/whatever doing something tactical or nova-ing, but it's probably the way to look as far as getting you options without using a new character.

[druid91]

Did everyone else get an extremely powerful ability as part of their backstory as well? :smallbiggrin:

*Raises hand*

Ooh I did, I did!!:smallbiggrin:
Of course I had to use class levels and feats to get those cool powers.


Anyway, From what I've seen over In the PI end of the games, It's probably just some obscure homebrew or splat-book thing. Quite possibly refluffed. I mean we have a dragonfire adept presented as a hellfire slinging vampire lord.

[lianightdemon]

The Dms point of view on this issue is that its a game with, about 25+ other people.

Is it a larp? Cause how the hell does he manage to run that without a way to increase the speed of combat as a boffer larp can. 10 normal 10 normal 10 normal rather then

1d20+BAB+Strength mod + whatever else if that hits you roll whatever your damage is.

X25 +spells and all that stuff. Combat will take the whole session.

[Hanuman]

You cannot hide from the babycakes. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2XGp5ix8HE)

[*.*.*.*]

This ability kind of sounds like the Lifesight feat from Libris Mortis. Is the other guy undead?

This was my first thought

[Shinizak]

There is no way to hide your soul in D&D, but there is a way around. cast your illusions & make your hide checks, Make extra sure that what ever you use works on a massive area (maybe summon in some fog also). Then summon in monsters (have them look as humanoid as possible), what he'll see is a variety of souls and have to pick from each one.

Also, try calling in elementals if you can, elementals are stated to have no soul (since they can't be resurrected), and would benefit nicely from the cover while you took the dude head on. He would have to fight you while being blindly attacked by unseen creatures.

If he tries to say that he can tell the difference from each one, call bull. There really shouldn't be a power that gives him that level of sight.

[Kaiser Omnik]

I'm pretty sure elementals (like outsiders) have a soul; however their soul and their body are one and the same, so when their physical form is destroyed, their soul also dissolves into the elements.

[Shinizak]

fine, then the guy can screw around with flaming humanoid soul decoys.

[FelixG]

A: your DM is way off thinking that (general) undead have souls still, they are pretty much constructs powered by negative energy. Constructs on the other hand do have souls.

B: The Swarm idea is a good one, just find a way to make it disperse so he cant see which soul is the real one. Claim that your soul is merely a pin prick as you are dead inside from how many people you have killed in your work as an assassin, if he can refluff and be a jerk, you can dictate how something on YOUR character appears, not him.

C: Your an assassin, wait till he is asleep (bet ya he doesn't have that sweet AC when he has his armor off and asleep) then teleport in all sneaky like and murder em. Most abilities don't work while sleeping, especially if they involve seeing things.

D: You could argue that as Magic is magic invisibility cloaks your soul as well unless he has true seeing or some other way to detect things that are invisible.

E: Find a way to ranged sneak attack/death attack

[Fitz10019]

Seeing your soul is not the same as seeing your body. He should not be able to see your attack coming, so you should get your 11d6.

Maybe you can make a Spring Attack build and always end your turn with an obstruction between you and him.

[grimbold]

i know of ways to trap your soul
but your body would have to be destroyed first

[pffh]

No magic and high AC you say I bet he doesn't have any ranks in balance.
1:Buy a bag of marbles
2: roll marbles under him
3: Sneak attack at will

[Elfstone]

Hes immune to the sneak attacks because he can see us all.

The DM says "Some undead are ONLY made of souls. So undead have souls."

HEs not undead.

Its some kind of demon class thats been refluffed.

He can see anything thats around him, true seeing or not. (as far as I can tell)
We are drow... We never sleep......

I can range death attack, and even at long range, but I have a better chance of hitting him with melee.

Unless I have large amounts of scrolls or enlist the help of the house mage, I can't summon that kind of stuff.

I only have assassin spells.(and a few ranger spells)

Hopefully that answers the questions that exploded over night?

[FelixG]

Hes immune to the sneak attacks because he can see us all.

The DM says "Some undead are ONLY made of souls. So undead have souls."

He can see anything thats around him, true seeing or not. (as far as I can tell)


This bit alone tells me that your GM doesn't know what he is doing at all.

I have encountered this once in my own group (IE jerk player can do no wrong)

the player and the GM are probably friends and the GM is giving him favors. This on top of the GM not knowing what he is talking about AND him saying "oh yes I checked this its how it works" does not bode well.

Might as well just say "Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu" and make some wishes :smallbiggrin:

[ArcanistSupreme]

I think you're out of luck unless you can find out what the base ability is. It's really difficult if it's been completely refluffed.

Wait, idea! Does he have a level of Mindbender and the feat Mindsight? That would do it. Try something that blocks telepathy. Or perhaps he has some kind of blindsight.

P.S.-He also must have some kind of fortification or some other ability that grants the immunity to SA; there is no one ability that does so much.

[pffh]

Hes immune to the sneak attacks because he can see us all.


This doesn't matter if he's flat footed, which he is when making balance check untrained (which he is if he doesn't have any ranks in balance) = you can sneak attack

[ArcanistSupreme]

This doesn't matter if he's flat footed, which he is when making balance check untrained (which he is if he doesn't have any ranks in balance) = you can sneak attack

Actually, it matters very much. Improved uncanny dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#improvedUncannyDodge) can be gotten around like this, but something like heavy fortification (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#fortification) is going to shut down SA entirely. Spells such as foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm) also prevent being flatfooted regardless of the circumstances.

[oxybe]

there's a good chance he's using the mindsight feat from lords of madness allows anyone with telepathy to:

"A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy. This works much like blindsense--the creature knows what square each thinking being is in, but it does not see the being, and the being still has total concealment unless the creature can see it by some other means. The creature also perceives several observable characteristics about each being detected with mindsight, including the being's type and Intelligence score. The creature need not take any additional or special actions to gain this information; it is as obvious to mindsight as the being's race and clothing would be to eyesight."

[HunterOfJello]

You need to sell your soul to a demon before the fight starts. You might even get a nice item or something in exchange.

[Jack_Simth]

A: your DM is way off thinking that (general) undead have souls still, they are pretty much constructs powered by negative energy.Per Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm), "...sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls..." it's out of context, mind, but there's at least some RAW support for undead having souls.

[FelixG]

Per Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm), "...sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls..." it's out of context, mind, but there's at least some RAW support for undead having souls.

Sentient undead.

the idea that "some undead are made of souls so ALL must have souls" is an obvious fallacy though

[Tyger]

I think its pretty clear that the ability, as noted by the OP, is called Soulsight, which is a feat from Magic of Incarnum. It does not work as they are using it though (it only works for one round, once per day for starters) and it looks like the DM is letting the other player really, really abuse it. Which leads me to believe that FelixG is on the right track.

[Jack_Simth]

Sentient undead.

the idea that "some undead are made of souls so ALL must have souls" is an obvious fallacy though
Yeah.... but I might point out that for the purposes of this thread, turning into a mindless undead won't help any.

[Psyren]

Yeah.... but I might point out that for the purposes of this thread, turning into a mindless undead won't help any.

"Ha, now you can't find me! Er, I mean... braaaaaaaaaains...."

[Elfstone]

The DM is one of the best I have seen as far as not giving favors. If the player has this ability, he earned it and certainly has a weakness I can exploit.
Im just trying to find it, and once again. All I know has been gained IC and suggest some demon fluff ability. He wears heavy armor and is a solid melee type. My house mage could deal with him, but I want to be the one who takes him down (if our houses collide) Im sure druid91 will agree that Drowbane is an awesome DM. I ask that you don't insult him, or say that the player cheated.
I am assuming that he got his ability fair and square and I ask that you do the same.
It appears that the general agreement is that its not possible to block soulsight.
As for the sneak attack/death attack damage, some one in his house who was conducting a practice duel said "I know sneak attack dosn't effect you so here is my new damage"(he was a rogue)


Jack smith is correct about that.

[true_shinken]

Technically Darkstalker would work, as Soulsight states that it is a "limited form of blindsense" and Darkstalker specifies that you can hide from creatures with blindsense.

Oh, is that so? Then you can hide alright. Blindsense locates the square but you still have concealment. If you have concealment, you can hide.

[Electrohydra]

Hit him with a cloud mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/cloudMind.htm) if you can (Use magic device or something)

It specification says that the target
cannot pinpoint your location by any means.

Although he gets a saving throw, and at that level it might be easy for him. But then again if he's fighter type he might not have high will. Actually mass cloud mind would be better as it has a higher DC.

[Elfstone]

Hrm... Thats a good one.
Will add it to the list.

[Electrohydra]

Another way would be to attack him from behind, assuming his soul sigh thing actually requires him to look at where you are, so as long as you stay behind him (or over him, or under) you should be fine (if he has no reason to look around of course). In combat, while this might be stretching the rules a little, you could use an augmented dimension slide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionSlide.htm) to teleport behind him and attack right away.

[Tyger]

Elfstone, I didn't mean to impugn the integrity of the DM or the player, but that is simply not the way that ability works. Now if he is doing a bunch of homebrew, that's groovy too, but he has to do it fairly. If you didn't get a very powerful ability as well, then he isn't being fair.

That said, Darkstalker gets past Soulsight. One feat, which an assassin should already have anyway. Problem solved.

[zyborg]

I didn't see anything about it, but... did you ever ask about the exact feat/class ability used? This is important info IMHO.

[WarKitty]

I didn't see anything about it, but... did you ever ask about the exact feat/class ability used? This is important info IMHO.

It sounds like he isn't allowed to know for some reason.

[Elfstone]

Elfstone, I didn't mean to impugn the integrity of the DM or the player, but that is simply not the way that ability works. Now if he is doing a bunch of homebrew, that's groovy too, but he has to do it fairly. If you didn't get a very powerful ability as well, then he isn't being fair.

That said, Darkstalker gets past Soulsight. One feat, which an assassin should already have anyway. Problem solved.

Since I have no idea how the ability works I can't agree or disagree with you.
I am working on finding out how it works, but its not that easy.

I will try the Darkstalker route.

[Tyger]

Since I have no idea how the ability works I can't agree or disagree with you.
I am working on finding out how it works, but its not that easy.

I will try the Darkstalker route.

Well, if it is Soulsight, you can see the feat description. If its homebrew, you are screwed, and then I go back to my original point of fairness.

[Elfstone]

I would personally live with it than go head to head with the DM on that point. Sorry.
It would most likely end badly. For me.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Since I have no idea how the ability works I can't agree or disagree with you.
I am working on finding out how it works, but its not that easy.

I will try the Darkstalker route.

Is the other guy possibly a refluffed spellcaster of some sort? If yes, pick up something that blocks telepathy in case it's Mindsight.

[Boci]

I would personally live with it than go head to head with the DM on that point. Sorry.
It would most likely end badly. For me.

So one of the best DMs you know won't accept you pointing out "Hey DM, you know how most abilities can be countered..."

[Elfstone]

Please remember this is a constructive thread, not a destructive thread.

I finally got a definition of the ability, if not how he obtainded it.
"Soul sight
You can see souls, allowing you to see all living and undead creatures within 120' of you, regardless of current illumination or intervening objects"

[Heliomance]

That's not Mindsight or Lifesense. In fact, it's not like any other ability I know of, and is rather horrendously overpowered. The closest thing I can think of is a permanent Touchsight, augmented with 12 extra power points, but it's even better than that. Touchsight only lets you pinpoint, not actually see.

[WarKitty]

Please remember this is a constructive thread, not a destructive thread.

I finally got a definition of the ability, if not how he obtainded it.
"Soul sight
You can see souls, allowing you to see all living and undead creatures within 120' of you, regardless of current illumination or intervening objects"

It's an essentia feat out of Magic of Incarnum. It is listed as "a limited form of blindsense", so anything that fools blindsense should work.

[Heliomance]

It's an essentia feat out of Magic of Incarnum. It is listed as "a limited form of blindsense", so anything that fools blindsense should work.

No, it's not. It may share the name, but that ability is completely different to and vastly more powerful than the Incarnum feat.

[WarKitty]

No, it's not. It may share the name, but that ability is completely different to and vastly more powerful than the Incarnum feat.

Huh. Odd that he'd give the same name then, since RAW soulsight is a completely different thing. Maybe ask if that's what it was supposed to be?

[Heliomance]

Not that odd, really. It's entirely possible the DM has never heard of the Incarnum feat, and went "it's a feat that lets you see souls. Soulsight. Simple."

[true_shinken]

It's an essentia feat out of Magic of Incarnum. It is listed as "a limited form of blindsense", so anything that fools blindsense should work.

His description is very different from MoI's Soulsight.
Yeah, this ability is clearly overpowered. If Darkstalker can't counter it, tough luck. Find another trick. Maybe use mooks disguised as you to trick him. Or get someone to cast polymorph any object on you so that you'll become a (sentient) construct (Maug should work); a construct is not living so he wouldn't be able to see you. That plus a few illusions should do the trick.

[WarKitty]

Not that odd, really. It's entirely possible the DM has never heard of the Incarnum feat, and went "it's a feat that lets you see souls. Soulsight. Simple."

Still, as you pointed out it's much stronger than anything published. I presume Elfstone has some ability in-world to research how something like this would be countered? Or like people have said, find another trick. Stab him while he's sleeping (or UMD a heightened sleep and then stab him).

[Elfstone]

Its probably in the Tome of awesome.
If you don't know what it is, ill post a link.

[Grelna the Blue]

Please remember this is a constructive thread, not a destructive thread.

I finally got a definition of the ability, if not how he obtainded it.
"Soul sight
You can see souls, allowing you to see all living and undead creatures within 120' of you, regardless of current illumination or intervening objects"

Whoa! 120', regardless of intervening objects? So line of sight is completely unimportant? Can he see through his own head? That is, does he have all-around sight built into this? And he can see, not just sense, creatures based on their souls, so they don't have concealment from him and he can know whether they're attacking, standing still, or flipping him off?

You know, even a really good GM can let something slip by from time to time. This would be one of those times, as that is not remotely balanced.

For comparison, you know how they beefed up the base classes in Pathfinder so players wouldn't get as big a power boost from taking PrCs and the core classes would seem more viable to take to 20. Wizards get three abilities, and the high level one for those who specialize in necromancy is Life Sight, which sounds a lot like this guy's superpower.


Life Sight (Su): At 8th level, you gain blindsight to a range of 10 feet for a number of rounds per day equal to your wizard level. This ability only allows you to detect living creatures and undead creatures. This sight also tells you whether a creature is living or undead. Constructs and other creatures that are neither living nor undead cannot be seen with this ability. The range of this ability increases by 10 feet at 12th level, and by an additional 10 feet for every four levels beyond 12th.

A 52nd level Pathfinder necromancer could almost do what this guy does, except that the uberwizard would still have to worry about line of sight.

I guess there is one thing you could try that is low level enough to be easy to UMD or get in an item. Check out the 3.5 wizard spell Shroud of Undeath in the Spell Compendium. Only 2nd level, and it's specifically designed to make your life force appear as undead to other undead (the only things that can usually see it). If you surrounded yourself with actual undead, he'd still be able to see you, but you might be able to at least get him to waste the wrong abilities on you.

[Elfstone]

Oh my god.
I found it.
This explains so much.
Hes a gentle monk from Tome of awesome, and has taken a crap load of monk levels.
Posting link here, Tome of awesome (http://code.google.com/p/awesometome/downloads/list)

And yes, he has life sight at 30ft time class level (4) and has detect magic, as well as 360 vision.
****
Its also perfectly legal.

[Grelna the Blue]

Oh my god.
I found it.
This explains so much.
Hes a gentle monk from Tome of awesome, and has taken a crap load of monk levels.
Posting link here, Tome of awesome (http://code.google.com/p/awesometome/downloads/list)

And yes, he has life sight at 30ft time class level (4) and has detect magic, as well as 360 vision.
****
Its also perfectly legal.

You hadn't mentioned that 3rd party stuff was acceptable. I think we were all looking for official content. However, where in there does it say that you can see through intervening objects? The homebrew class might grant him Life Sight, but where does it define Life Sight and say it sees through stuff? I ask because I looked and couldn't find it.

[Elfstone]

Its in Prcs and martial.

It does say it ignores line of sight.
Thinking back on this, I probably shouldn't say anymore on his stats as other players in this game can see this.
Although the DM did say that gentle monk hadn't been approved for anyone.

And I can quote my post where I said it(tome of awesome) was legal. It was a page or so back.

[WarKitty]

Oh my god.
I found it.
This explains so much.
Hes a gentle monk from Tome of awesome, and has taken a crap load of monk levels.
Posting link here, Tome of awesome (http://code.google.com/p/awesometome/downloads/list)

And yes, he has life sight at 30ft time class level (4) and has detect magic, as well as 360 vision.
****
Its also perfectly legal.

Well, he's not immune to being flatfooted if you can manage it. And there's still the "catch him while he's sleeping" tactic.

[Zaq]

Darkstalker should still work, honestly. It's kind of two absolutes against one another, but . . .

Also, get a GM ruling. Can Soulsight be fooled by illusions, and if so, in what regard?

[true_shinken]

Reroll as a Lightning Warrior. That should do it.

[true_shinken]

Stab him while he's sleeping (or UMD a heightened sleep and then stab him).
This is a drow game, I believe. Drow don't sleep.

...Also, am I the only one that thinks a book called 'tome of awesome' is bound to overfilled with silliness?

[Elfstone]

Darkstalker should still work, honestly. It's kind of two absolutes against one another, but . . .

Also, get a GM ruling. Can Soulsight be fooled by illusions, and if so, in what regard?

No. No illusions fool it.

And yes, thank you. We are DROW people.
Same as elves, but cooler.

[Grelna the Blue]

Its in Prcs and martial.

It does say it ignores line of sight.
Thinking back on this, I probably shouldn't say anymore on his stats as other players in this game can see this.
Although the DM did say that gentle monk hadn't been approved for anyone.

And I can quote my post where I said it(tome of awesome) was legal. It was a page or so back.

You know what, my bad. I did see you say that back then and thought you were just a big fan of the Tome of Battle. A lot of people are. So I apologize if I came off as snippy, which wasn't my intention anyway.

But when I asked about the line of sight thing, I wasn't asking where the PrC is. I found that and saw the description of the ability within it. I couldn't find where Lifesight is defined outside of the PrC. The PrC definition doesn't say anything I could see about LoS being ignored.

[WarKitty]

No. No illusions fool it.

And yes, thank you. We are DROW people.
Same as elves, but cooler.

You still have to sleep normally. Plus there's always poison.

[Elfstone]

I am a big fan of ToB. =) its okay.

As for the definition, I don't know about the line of sight thing.
Besides the DM ruled that no one can use that class so it must be something else.

[Grelna the Blue]

Found it in your Tome of Awesome, without a doubt. It isn't a class ability. It's a specific item ability. Destroy/dispel the guy's Demon Armor (p.144), and he loses the ability.

Not even a minor artifact, which it most definitely would have been in my game.

[true_shinken]

You still have to sleep normally. Plus there's always poison.

No, trance is not sleep, you are actually awake. Poison that causes sleep does not work against opponents immune to sleep, as well.

[Elfstone]

AHHH. That explains the fluff...He went to the abyss to get it. Awesome, thanks a bunch.
Now all I have to do is get disjunction..... Or dispel magic. Awesome.
I appreciate that. *makes a note to buy a scroll of dispel magic*

[Boci]

AHHH. That explains the fluff...He went to the abyss to get it. Awesome, thanks a bunch.
Now all I have to do is get disjunction..... Or dispel magic. Awesome.
I appreciate that. *makes a note to buy a scroll of dispel magic*

Incarnum spell casting is better from MoI. It dispel magic, but only good against magic items (and meldshapes), but lasts 1 round per caster level.

Also, anyone wanna bet we're going to see a thread from the demon armour guy in the near future?

[WarKitty]

No, trance is not sleep, you are actually awake. Poison that causes sleep does not work against opponents immune to sleep, as well.

Forgot about trance. Still, poison's a decent idea, just don't use one that causes sleep.

[Elfstone]

Since we don't have MoI in the game as far as I know ill stick with dispel magic.
I think that he won't post.

[Boci]

In that case, dispel it and then its probably worth destroying it whilst it counts as a mundane item.

[Elfstone]

Hmm... Acid maybe? I wonder what does most damage to a hide based armor.
Any suggestions?

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm... Acid maybe? I wonder what does most damage to a hide based armor.
Any suggestions?
Shatter, unless he's got a good Will save.

[Elfstone]

I was thinking disintegrate.
dispel the armor (DM is ruling if its an ex or a sup ability)
then disintegrate on it.
Then do my sneaky magic.

[true_shinken]

I don't know if a truenamer's spell rebirth works on items, but it's a sure-shot dispel.

[Elfstone]

To bad im not a truenamer???

[Jack_Simth]

I was thinking disintegrate.
dispel the armor (DM is ruling if its an ex or a sup ability)
then disintegrate on it.
Then do my sneaky magic.

There's a PrC in the Tome - The Demon Samuri - that converts any armor he's wearing into that particular armor... as a Su ability. You're playing Drow, and he took a PrC that specifically means his patron is a Demon, and NOT you-know-who....

[Heliomance]

He didn't necessarily take that PrC.

[Elfstone]

I can promise you he didn't
know why?
The two claws, he wouldn't be able to get away with it, and he fought me in a duel. Kicked my butt with his high AC and high damage (+63 to one attack???)

[Jack_Simth]

He didn't necessarily take that PrC.
Necessarily? No. But if the DM is ruling it's a Su or Ex ability? For the enchanted armor? He probably did....

[Slipperychicken]

Hrm... I tried to hide from him, and rolled a 66 on my hide check. Then hes like oh no, I can see you.
I was like
WTF
Then he says "I can see your soul....."

Did he demonstrate that he knew your exact location? this is important


Did he have any way of knowing you were nearby? (i.e. did he get a look at you before? did he hear you?) If he did, he may have just said that to psyche you out.
There's always the very real possibility that he's messing with your head.

Are you evil? he could have detect [alignment]. "I see your soul" could mean that you pinged as [alignment] and thus he only "saw your soul" in the sense that he knew it was [good/evil].
If he concentrated for 3 rounds, he could have gotten your location.

EDIT: Yeah... shoulda read the part where he smacked you for 75. That is pretty badass.

[FelixG]

You could just use an item of an anti magic field, as SUs are countered by that, then sneak up behind him and death attack him

[Kelb_Panthera]

You could just use an item of an anti magic field, as SUs are countered by that, then sneak up behind him and death attack him

I don't think that'd work. Your soul is non-magical for one thing. Unless you're close enough for the enemy to be in your AMF, his "soulsight" wouldn't be suppressed. The magic of his SU ability is on him and doesn't affect you or reach into your AMF in any way. Ultimately you'd have to ask your DM on this one though.

[FelixG]

I don't think that'd work. Your soul is non-magical for one thing. Unless you're close enough for the enemy to be in your AMF, his "soulsight" wouldn't be suppressed. The magic of his SU ability is on him and doesn't affect you or reach into your AMF in any way. Ultimately you'd have to ask your DM on this one though.



The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.


If you cast it and it follows you around, his soulsight would stop at the edge and be suppressed, not allowing him to see the soul.

Soulsight has a range on it, it would be like trying to look into darkness with normal sight

[Elfstone]

Did he demonstrate that he knew your exact location? this is important


Did he have any way of knowing you were nearby? (i.e. did he get a look at you before? did he hear you?) If he did, he may have just said that to psyche you out.
There's always the very real possibility that he's messing with your head.

Are you evil? he could have detect [alignment]. "I see your soul" could mean that you pinged as [alignment] and thus he only "saw your soul" in the sense that he knew it was [good/evil].
If he concentrated for 3 rounds, he could have gotten your location.
He hit me for about 75 damage... so yeah he knew my location. Yes he knew I was nearby, it was a duel for christs sake. HEs not messing with my head as I have said previously...
Please read the ENTIRE thread before posting
And the power level is 13-15. So no Anti magic fields...at all. for a long time.

[Boci]

He hit me for about 75 damage... so yeah he knew my location. Yes he knew I was nearby, it was a duel for christs sake. HEs not messing with my head as I have said previously...
Please read the ENTIRE thread before posting
And the power level is 13-15. So no Anti magic fields...at all. for a long time.

You make it sound like an epic spell. Antimagic torc costs 25k.

[FelixG]

And the power level is 13-15. So no Anti magic fields...at all. for a long time.

Doesn't much matter that an 11th level wizard can cast the spell in that case?

[true_shinken]

He hit me for about 75 damage... so yeah he knew my location. Yes he knew I was nearby, it was a duel for christs sake. HEs not messing with my head as I have said previously...
Please read the ENTIRE thread before posting
And the power level is 13-15. So no Anti magic fields...at all. for a long time.

Antimagic field is a 6th level spell. That's exactly the point where it comes into play.

[Elfstone]

Yeah, thats alot of money. That I don't have. And won't have for a long time. We have to RP our butts off to level. And anything over 25k as a starting item the DM would have to okay it, besides im not blowing all my wealth to do that when I could have my nice +2 drowcraft toxic/lightburst shortswords.(druid91, you didn't see that)
EDIT: I thought that it was a 9th level spell. Meh, its still not going to happen. Unless I buy a scroll of it.

[true_shinken]

Yeah, thats alot of money. That I don't have. And won't have for a long time. We have to RP our butts off to level. And anything over 25k as a starting item the DM would have to okay it, besides im not blowing all my wealth to do that when I could have my nice +2 drowcraft toxic/lightburst shortswords.(druid91, you didn't see that)
Well, your choice seems to be a) get another trick, b) mess with his sight.
a) Well, I just (re)posted my short guide to defensive fighting, you could check on that. Also, check Akal Saris' Poison Handbook.
b) So he can see souls? Getting rid of his armor is getting expensive isn't it? Get rid of his eyes instead. Glitterdust, blindness/deafness, blacklight... If he can't see anything, he won't be able to see souls.

[Boci]

Yeah, thats alot of money. That I don't have.

You should have anywhere between 110k and 200k. Its significant but affordable.


And won't have for a long time. We have to RP our butts off to level. And anything over 25k as a starting item the DM would have to okay it, besides im not blowing all my wealth to do that when I could have my nice +2 drowcraft toxic/lightburst shortswords.(druid91, you didn't see that)

So being unable to hide and getting slughtered is better?


EDIT: I thought that it was a 9th level spell. Meh, its still not going to happen. Unless I buy a scroll of it.

That could work. Can you buy scrolls for the normal price or are they x5?



b) So he can see souls? Getting rid of his armor is getting expensive isn't it? Get rid of his eyes instead. Glitterdust, blindness/deafness, blacklight... If he can't see anything, he won't be able to see souls.

Thats an idea, but getting something with a decent save DC could be hard, and blacklight won't work since demon armour is unaffected by illumination levels.

[FelixG]

Yeah, thats alot of money. That I don't have. And won't have for a long time. We have to RP our butts off to level. And anything over 25k as a starting item the DM would have to okay it, besides im not blowing all my wealth to do that when I could have my nice +2 drowcraft toxic/lightburst shortswords.(druid91, you didn't see that)
EDIT: I thought that it was a 9th level spell. Meh, its still not going to happen. Unless I buy a scroll of it.

ya you only need one scroll for about 1,650 GP. and it will last ALMOST 2 hours, plenty of time to sneak up on him and ruin his day.

Mix this with a bag of marbles and watch as all his snappy magical gear fails him and he is always flat footed for your strikes

[true_shinken]

Thats an idea, but getting something with a decent save DC could be hard, and blacklight won't work since demon armour is unaffected by illumination levels.
Well, there is a dirty trick - blinding eggbombs from Oriental Adventures. Dirty cheap (10gp each) and on a direct hit (touch attack) you blind your target for one round, no save.
Stock on these. With Quick Draw (through heroics, most likely) you'll be able to snipe him to death with thrown weapons; just make sure you always hit him at least once with an eggbomb per turn.

[Elfstone]

something better, masterwork vest of potions. Lets you draw as a swift action.
Okay guys, thanks for the help. I will work up a plan using all of these options. If you find anything else, let me know.

[Fitz10019]

Why are you hiding? Let him find your soul, but kick his ass when he does.

Another from the "why hide?" perspective...

Cast Reduce Person on yourself.
Cast Enlarge Person on him.
Jump down his throat* and attack him from inside.
He will know exactly where you are, and it will be terrifying.

* - some recipes recommend adding Babau Slime for flavor

Can you get polymorphed to hide within a swarm? Crawl down his throat when he's out of actions/AoOs. Oops, that was a hiding suggestion.

Sorry for the silliness; it seems to me that if Tome of Awesome 0.7 is in, anything can happen.

Something serious... I would think a Drow-themed game would be largely intrigue, so find a wizard, a cleric and a druid who hate him and/or his house. Don't spend gold, spent time, garnering allies. Then there won't be much of a gold cap on whatever strategy you decide upon.