[Pathfinder] ECL = CR? What?

[Goober4473]

According to the Bestiary, the standard for a monster PC is to use its CR as level. This strikes me as not balanced, even under strict DM control. The example is the CR 4 minotaur, which has 6 HD and high stats. Is this really balanced with a level 4 character, even with the slightly better Pathfinder classes?

Maybe this actually works just fine? I donno. It just seemed weird after dealing with LA in 3.5.

[Crossblade]

I believe it has to do with the fact that all the class skills got a tune up in power. I think it's addressed in the section that says monster characters gain levels faster than normal PC races.

[Aotrs Commander]

Unless PF's monster HD are wildly better and grant abilities commersurate with a level of a character class, yes. Certainly in 3.5, a monster HD was not considered to be equivilent to a class level by anyone other than the WotC themselves. It's certainly a fairer way than with 3.5's LA+RHD which almost invaribly gave you a much weaker character (because the LA were almost always set too high and the RHD over-valued). It might still have some balance issues, but it's a way better starting point.

[tyckspoon]

Pretty close, yes. Remember that most monstrous options are pretty useless for being anything other than a big beatstick. It's also relevant that Pathfinder rules- at least, as best as I can search- no longer provide a mechanism for converting a monster's statline into stat modifiers, allowing you to apply the monster's bonuses to a customized pointbuy set or good rolls. Instead, if you play a Minotaur, you get the Minotaur's stats as written. So you're Large, you have pretty decent Str and Con, and you're 2 HD ahead of regular classes at level 4 (which does some weird stuff but is manageable), but.. you have no Dex modifier, no class features, and your mentals are bad. Overall, you'd probably have a better statline if you used a normally-generated PC race with pointbuy. And your feats are prechosen, because again, you're not applying the I'm A Minotaur! template to a normal character, which was how 3.5 basically did it; you're just taking the Minotaur straight out of the book and playing it (this may or may not be how it was intended, but it appears to be how the rules work.)

Mind, I don't think that's quite what Paizo *thought* they were doing with their monstrous PC rules, and I'd appreciate it if somebody has a reference for how it's supposed to go, but that's what the official reference documents say.

[Starbuck_II]

Yep, been this way a while.
The example it uses is a Minotaur. But you do get to choose your feats. Not sure where tyckspoon is coming from.

[Goober4473]

How about for templates like half-dragon? You'd apply that directly to a character that you've already built with point buy.

And what if you want to customize your minotaur's ability scores to make a unique character? Do you just not have the option at all? Even if that's balanced, it's not very interesting.

[tyckspoon]

How about for templates like half-dragon? You'd apply that directly to a character that you've already built with point buy.

And what if you want to customize your minotaur's ability scores to make a unique character? Do you just not have the option at all? Even if that's balanced, it's not very interesting.

The most consistent option would be to treat the CR increase as an LA, 3.5 style (because if CR=ECL for a monstrous creature, then +CR is directly equal to +ECL. Which is basically LA all over again.) Fortunately the CR increases tend to be a couple points lower than the LAs on the 3.5 versions of the templates were.. although the scaling CR increase on Half Celestial/Fiend is liable to do some weird stuff.

And no, there doesn't seem to be a Pathfinder-RAW option for customizing a monster's stats, because there isn't a 'how to calculate stat bonuses' section in the rules anymore. The "Monsters as PCs" header just says "Pick a monster. Its ECL is its CR." You could do it 3.5 style without any major trouble, of course. It'd just be a houserule instead of the Official Way now.

[Doug Lampert]

And no, there doesn't seem to be a Pathfinder-RAW option for customizing a monster's stats, because there isn't a 'how to calculate stat bonuses' section in the rules anymore. The "Monsters as PCs" header just says "Pick a monster. Its ECL is its CR." You could do it 3.5 style without any major trouble, of course. It'd just be a houserule instead of the Official Way now.

So adding PC gear to the monster doesn't make it any more effective?

I guess that's the logic.

Given that pathfinder did little to actually tone down casters this may provide a way to give melee some nice toys. You're a caster. I'm an equal CR dragon or giant or Erinyees or something with PC gear.

Wait! It gets better! According to the Pathfinder SRD:
Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.

So a Pathfinder Barghest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/barghest)/Barbarian8 is only ECL 10, as long as you only feed three times!

That's totally sick! And that was the first monster I looked at.

Crazy good abilities, +3 to everything important, 6 outsider HD (with d10 rather than d8 and +15 from the growth points), 8 PC HD, nice spell-likes, and I've only lost two levels of barbarian! What were they smoking.

Gosh, I wonder what I'd find if I really LOOKED rather than picking the first monster at CR 4 that looked interesting.

DougL

[tyckspoon]

Well, about half the text of Pathfinder's "Monsters as PCs" is versions of the warning "Monsters aren't designed as or necessarily balanced as PCs, so keep an eye on this and intervene if it's hurting your game." So.. yeah, where 3.5 cracked down too hard on nonstandard races/monster PCs and made most of them near-useless, Pathfinder takes the other extreme, presents a very quick and overly simplified starting point, and then throws it all into the DM's hands. Which is probably the best way to do it if they're not going to put in the work to really fix the ECL/CR/LA mess.

[HandofCrom]

It's nasty for casters as well as beatsticks. Lillend are cr 7 and come with level 7 bardic casting and performance. Naga are all sorcerers. Nymphs have druid casting. Planetars are cr 16 and have level 16 cleric casting. It's just a silly broken afterthought of a rule.

[Starbuck_II]

It's nasty for casters as well as beatsticks. Lillend are cr 7 and come with level 7 bardic casting and performance. Naga are all sorcerers. Nymphs have druid casting. Planetars are cr 16 and have level 16 cleric casting. It's just a silly broken afterthought of a rule.

Actually once you reach level 16 (CR 16) the Planatars abilities are about par with class features.

Remember how high levels, not a linear scale. Flight, and son isn't worth LA by than.

[Seerow]

Actually once you reach level 16 (CR 16) the Planatars abilities are about par with class features.

Remember how high levels, not a linear scale. Flight, and son isn't worth LA by than.

Yes, but if I'm understanding the rule correctly (and I admittedly may be reading wrong from what's been said in this topic) at CR 16, he would gain an extra 5 class levels (you gain one class level for every 3 levels of the group, rounded down). So as a EL 16 character you could be casting as a level 21 cleric? (assuming cleric class levels stack with the base monster casting)

[tyckspoon]

Actually once you reach level 16 (CR 16) the Planatars abilities are about par with class features.

Remember how high levels, not a linear scale. Flight, and son isn't worth LA by than.

:smalleek: I'm pretty sure a Planetar at ECL=16 is straight up better than almost any build that isn't making use of Persistant Spell, and some that are depending on the level of optimization involved. Just by virtue of being an Angel the Planetar is better off than most melee builds; being an Outsider gives it a fair shot at playing with the skillmonkeys, especially with Pathfinder's skill rules.. the only thing better than being an Outsider (Awesome) type is being a full caster. And the Planetar.. is that too. So.. what kinda level 16 characters are you used to that playing a Planetar at the same level isn't better?

[HandofCrom]

Also, the planetar has 17 outsider hit dice, giving it better BAB and saves than any level 16 character.

[Jack_Simth]

Also, the planetar has 17 outsider hit dice, giving it better BAB and saves than any level 16 character.
And will usually have better base stats, too:
Str 27, Dex 19, Con 24, Int 22, Wis 25, Cha 24
This is without magic items. The lowest stat there is a 19. While the highest a 'traditional' race can start with is 20 (18 rolled, +2 racial), at level 16 they'd have +4 to apply wherever, so before items, the highest a 'traditional' character would have is a 24 at level 16 - which the Planetar exceeds on two stats, and ties on two stats. Yes, they're lacking domains and the Cleric class features, but they've got a LOT of nifties.

Then there's the Young template, which is -1 CR, but doesn't hurt them too much in terms of playability (unless you're planning on playing Melee, where the reduced strength and Con can hurt), and gets you 16th level Cleric casting at 'level' 15.

Just rummaging through the Pathfinder SRD for a bit, I'm not seeing anything that has more caster levels than CR by default, but am seeing a few that are equal (Clerical Casting: Planetar, Trumpet Archon, Ghaele; Sorcerer: Water Naga; Druid: Nymph; Bard: Lillend).

[Goober4473]

Wait! It gets better!

Or worse, if you want a balanced party, which I do as either a player or DM.

[Rixx]

They're saving the more balanced rules for when they release a "Monster PCs" book of their own. In the meantime, this is a much simpler little system, and most groups that allow weird monster characters tend not to be terribly concerned about RAW anyway.

(Pointing out broken options isn't really useful, as the book comes right out and says not every monster is suitable for play as a PC under those rules.)

[Jack_Simth]

They're saving the more balanced rules for when they release a "Monster PCs" book of their own. In the meantime, this is a much simpler little system, and most groups that allow weird monster characters tend not to be terribly concerned about RAW anyway.

(Pointing out broken options isn't really useful, as the book comes right out and says not every monster is suitable for play as a PC under those rules.)The thing is, most of them are not suitable for play as a PC under those rules - monsters are a CR of their CR based on being the listed entry; theoretically, a CR-10 monster should have close to a 50/50 chance in a solo encounter against a single 'generic' 10th level PC. But monsters are designed to be about that strength as they're listed in the monster stat block, while PC's are designed to have WBL - throwing PC WBL on top of a standard monster makes the monster noticeably stronger than expected... which makes them noticeably stronger than normal PC's when CR = ECL. The broken options just highlight the problem, making it more exaggerated - they're not, of themselves, the problem.

[Rixx]

Well, you'll probably just have to wait until they release more thorough rules on the subject, then. Or give monster PCs wealth-by-level appropriate for their class levels only.

[Miko_Kira]

According to the Bestiary, the standard for a monster PC is to use its CR as level. This strikes me as not balanced, even under strict DM control. The example is the CR 4 minotaur, which has 6 HD and high stats. Is this really balanced with a level 4 character, even with the slightly better Pathfinder classes?

Maybe this actually works just fine? I donno. It just seemed weird after dealing with LA in 3.5.

I do believe CR is Challenge Rating, meaning that an average group of 4 to 6 at ECL 4 (Effective Character Level) should be able to handle a ECL 6, aka CR 4 minotaur.
(edit #1)
I hope this helps explain the difference between the two.
(edit #2)
CR and ECL are not the same. CR is what you use to determine what you can safely throw at your players determined by their average character level. ECL is used when you add class levels and racial levels, if any, together. So if you wanted a minotaur in a party, the rest of the party would need to be 6th level, and the minotaur cannot have class levels until it has exp equal to 7th level.

[The Insanity]

It's also relevant that Pathfinder rules- at least, as best as I can search- no longer provide a mechanism for converting a monster's statline into stat modifiers, allowing you to apply the monster's bonuses to a customized pointbuy set or good rolls.
There are rules for adding class levels to monsters. I guess the devs think those are enough.


Yes, but if I'm understanding the rule correctly (and I admittedly may be reading wrong from what's been said in this topic) at CR 16, he would gain an extra 5 class levels (you gain one class level for every 3 levels of the group, rounded down). So as a EL 16 character you could be casting as a level 21 cleric? (assuming cleric class levels stack with the base monster casting)
No, that's for when you level up.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races

Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.
Which means that a CR 16 monster would level up 2 times (to 18 CR/ECL) together with his team (which would be 18th level), but then he would get a bonus level, so he would be 20 CR/ECL when his team would be just 19th level. So with your team being 20th level you, the planetar, would be 4th level (ECL 21).


CR and ECL are not the same. CR is what you use to determine what you can safely throw at your players determined by their average character level. ECL is used when you add class levels and racial levels, if any, together. So if you wanted a minotaur in a party, the rest of the party would need to be 6th level, and the minotaur cannot have class levels until it has exp equal to 7th level.
Uhm, no actually. PF did away with LA and instead ruled that CR is now ECL.

This rules are just simple guidelines thrown together in a hurry for people that really want to play monsters to have something. Also:

GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game. As monster characters progress, GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play.

[Gemini476]

ECL=CR is especially weird when you realize that PCs in Pathfinder are normally CR=ECL-1.
Although that might be with NPC wealth. I don't remember.

[The Insanity]

ECL=CR is especially weird when you realize that PCs in Pathfinder are normally CR=ECL-1.
Although that might be with NPC wealth. I don't remember.
That's for NPCs.

[icefractal]

I'd say that ECL=CR actually sounds about right - for most monsters, with one big condition.

That condition is - you get the monster straight from the book. No better stats, no better feat/skill/spell choices, only the equipment it has specifically mentioned, or that could be part of its treasure.

At that point, it could actually be reasonable to say that a Ghaele Azata is 13th level character, despite having 13th level Cleric casting plus a bunch of other stuff. Because it's stuck with all its (not particularly optimal) selections, and doesn't even have enough cash to get a Headband of Wisdom (almost all it's ~34K is spent on that fancy greatsword).

Once you break away from that, giving it better feats, better spell choices, PC-level gear - then maybe it's not ECL 13 any more, and you should evaluate it to see what the appropriate level would be.