Character Help, Lesser Aasimar and summoner classes.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

In fiddling with my current character I have uncovered some things that I would like to try in a later campaign, but I have a few questions about the feasibility and mechanics of some choices. My character is meant to be similar (not a build for him, per se, but close) to Elric of Melnibone.

My plan is a frail (Cloistered Cleric) magic user, capable of amazing combat feats (Divine Might, etc) in times of dire need. Although, my main source of power will be extraplanar pacts via spells that summon elementals and/or outsiders. I will be Aasimar Cloistered Cleric/Thaumaturgist/maybe something else, with possible knowledge devotion.

Here are some things I'd like to address:
1) we are most likely starting at level 4, in this case is there any difference between Lesser Aasimar and a normal one with the racial HD replaced by a class level?

2)Is Thaumaturgist good/how do you play it? Given the exp cost associated with the Planar ally spells I figure you can't just always resort to pulling an Outsider out of your pocket at every encounter.

3)Are there any classes (other than Binder) that deal with making pacts/invoking the power of supernatural entities? Something along the lines of Anima Mage that won't lose me CL from taking Binder levels from pre reqs (and also works with divine magic).

[Greenish]

Have you looked at the Malconvoker from Comp. Scoundrel?

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Have you looked at the Malconvoker from Comp. Scoundrel?

Just looked at it, this seems to be good, but I'm still not exactly sure how to effectively play a summoner other than battlefield control with the summon monster spells. Are the Planar Binding spells just long-term versions of those or are they meant to be used differently?

[absolmorph]

A creature with 1 RHD loses that RHD when it takes a class level. Aasimar have 1 RHD. That leaves you with 1 LA. Assuming you can't use LA buy-off (which would set you at level 3 with 2,000 XP until level 4 [or 8,000 XP total]), it depends on if you think having the Outsider type (which can open up some fun with Polymorph Any Object at later levels; don't be too cheesy) is worth it.

I'd also like to point out that Archivist can do everything a Cleric can with spells, and has more slots per day. And Int-based casting (Wis-based bonus spells, though), with all Knowledges being class skills, makes Knowledge Devotion even more fun. I'm not familiar with the Thaumaturgist (I never got really interested in the class), so I can't provide much advice about that.

Some relevant links:
Summoning Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864066/Summoning_Handbook)
Mastering the Malconvoker (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker)
Practical Demonkeeping (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175570)
Those should help you out some.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

My DM is rather lenient with LA races that aren't too insane, so I'm sure the buyoff would be allowed (I totally forgot about this, it's in UA, right?). As for Archivist, I considered it but I wanted to give the spontaneous caster option a try and it might mesh oddly with a spell/prayerbook. I guess I would use the class's spells known progression and the imagery would be him reading the spell directly out of his book as he casts it. Dark Knowledge cool too.

Also, thanks for the links.

[absolmorph]

LA buy-off rules can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).
Also, I'm not sure how you'd cast any summoning spells spontaneously.

[Greenish]

A creature with 1 RHD loses that RHD when it takes a class level. Aasimar have 1 RHD.A humanoid with 1 RHD loses it upon gaining class levels.

Aasimar do not have RHD, though, and lesser aasimar are humanoid anyway.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

LA buy-off rules can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).
Also, I'm not sure how you'd cast any summoning spells spontaneously.

I don't have the book on me right now, but UA has a divine caster ACF that allows them to get a limited spells known list in exchange for being able to cast spontaneously. Obvjoisly this isn't as good with the 10 min casting time, etc spells but the Summon Monster and Nature's Ally could work.

EDIT: Can Outsiders take the old age templates (that increase mental stats) or is that only humanoid races?

[Psyren]

A humanoid with 1 RHD loses it upon gaining class levels.

To clarify, that is referring to humanoid shape, not humanoid type. See also: Elans, Half-Giants, Warforged.

[Greenish]

To clarify, that is referring to humanoid shape, not humanoid type. See also: Elans, Half-Giants, Warforged.Maybe. There was a discussion about this not too long ago, I seem to recall.

[Psyren]

Maybe. There was a discussion about this not too long ago, I seem to recall.

There's no "maybe" about it. Elans and Warforged are explicitly not humanoids. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Lets throw Dusklings in for good measure

[Greenish]

There's no "maybe" about it. Elans and Warforged are explicitly not humanoids. :smalltongue:"Maybe" is in whether the humanoid in the context refers to shape or type. In rules texts, as far as I know, it's used nearly exclusively for referring to type.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Just to interrupt the humanoid discussion, looking at the various guides that were posted I am wondering if I will be powerful enough using only MMI (which is all we're allowed to use for summoning/cohorts/other PC controlled monsters)?

[absolmorph]

Just to interrupt the humanoid discussion, looking at the various guides that were posted I am wondering if I will be powerful enough using only MMI (which is all we're allowed to use for summoning/cohorts/other PC controlled monsters)?
That is plenty.
The second link I posted doesn't even go out of the core summon lists, if my memory of them is correct.
And it goes over good creatures to use Planar Binding on, too. Malconvoker 2 automatically gets you all three versions as spells. At level 12 (taking into account the lost caster level), you can cast Planar Binding and grab a Rakshasa, which has, guess what! Level 7 Sorcerer casting.
Let's see...

Cloistered Cleric 7/Thaumaturgist 3/Malconvoker 8/Thaumaturgist +2
You end up with level 19 Cleric casting, your [Summoning] spells get tripled durations and you can get a nice Planar Ally and good Planar Binding stuff.
Also, the duration may be quadrupled, but I'm not sure and that's generally not how stacking multipliers works. I'm being conservative.

Feats needed: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
You get Augment Summoning as a bonus feat, so you don't need that.

Pick up the Trickery Domain to get Bluff as a class skill. Keep Bluff maxed out and plop 4 points in Knowledge (The Planes). If you choose Spell Focus: Conjuration as your first feat, you qualify for Thaumaturgist, and get Augment Summoning as a bonus feat for Malconvoker. You get an Outsider cohort at level 20, which be up to ECL 18.

[tyckspoon]

There's no "maybe" about it. Elans and Warforged are explicitly not humanoids. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Lets throw Dusklings in for good measure

If the section header has any rules impact at all (and I don't think it does, because the actual rule under it refers only to 'creatures' and the section header is basically for organizational purposes) then it means humanoid shape- even in the Monster Manual you can find the Pixie, which is a 1HD Fey that has a note telling you to swap that HD for a class level when you play it as a character.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Now I can take Malconvoker at level 6 and Thaumaturgist at level 8. If I take Malconvoker 1st I need to have Augment Summoning, but Thaumaturgist grants that feat for free, What happens to redundant feats (I know they don't stack). Otherwise, starting the Malconvoker/Thaumaturgist chain at level 8 isn't that bad of an option.

And, absolmorph, I guess I got a bit lost in the threads within threads (at one point they all link to each other) and I guess I missed the MMI stuff. Thanks again

[absolmorph]

If the section header has any rules impact at all (and I don't think it does, because the actual rule under it refers only to 'creatures' and the section header is basically for organizational purposes) then it means humanoid shape- even in the Monster Manual you can find the Pixie, which is a 1HD Fey that has a note telling you to swap that HD for a class level when you play it as a character.
Moot issue. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#aasimar)
No RHD, only +1 LA.

Also, I forgot that Summon Monster III is available at level 5 :smallredface:
Still, the build as I have it set up doesn't miss out on any of the really good bits of Malconvoker (the ninth level lets you dismiss your summoning spells as an immediate action instead of a standard).

[tyckspoon]

Now I can take Malconvoker at level 6 and Thaumaturgist at level 8. If I take Malconvoker 1st I need to have Augment Summoning, but Thaumaturgist grants that feat for free, What happens to redundant feats (I know they don't stack). Otherwise, starting the Malconvoker/Thaumaturgist chain at level 8 isn't that bad of an option.


It's just a dead feat. If your DM is feeling generous he might let you swap it for some other feat you qualify for.

[Psyren]

"Maybe" is in whether the humanoid in the context refers to shape or type. In rules texts, as far as I know, it's used nearly exclusively for referring to type.

Which means the RAW is contradictory and therefore pointless. Either way, that reading of the text is to be disregarded.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

It's just a dead feat. If your DM is feeling generous he might let you swap it for some other feat you qualify for.

There's some sort of rule that you can retrain 1 feat at each level in DMGII I think, I'll look into that.

[absolmorph]

There's some sort of rule that you can retrain 1 feat at each level in DMGII I think, I'll look into that.
PHBII, actually, and you have to be able to qualify for the new feat at whatever level you took the original feat.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

PHBII, actually, and you have to be able to qualify for the new feat at whatever level you took the original feat.

That's the one, thanks.