Strongheart Water Halfling?

[mootoall]

Hmm, this seems an interesting idea. As two different subraces of halfling, can the two be combined? If so, by RAW, you get -2 STR, +2 CON and +2 DEX, and a bonus feat. That'd be pretty gorram awesome on a sorcerer ...

[Hanuman]

Hmm, this seems an interesting idea. As two different subraces of halfling, can the two be combined? If so, by RAW, you get -2 STR, +2 CON and +2 DEX, and a bonus feat. That'd be pretty gorram awesome on a sorcerer ...
So, a quarterling?

[Dusk Eclipse]

wouldn't he bee a full ling? I mean 1/2 +1/2= 2/2

[Hanuman]

But no, OP this belongs in the homebrew section.

[Urpriest]

Some people argue that you can stack subraces like you can stack variants. The one I see most often is strongheart glimmerskin halfling (wouldn't be half bad for a Fleshgrafter build I seem to keep coming back to...). The normal argument is that a subrace, like a variant class, trades out certain racial features for other ones. I don't buy it: a subrace is its own creature that happens to share traits with another creature. It's not just a trade of features.

[Hanuman]

Well yeah if your DM hoserules racial gestalting.

[mootoall]

But no, OP this belongs in the homebrew section.

Uh, I don't think so ... it's primarily a RAW question using approximately ... zero homebrew.


Some people argue that you can stack subraces like you can stack variants. The one I see most often is strongheart glimmerskin halfling (wouldn't be half bad for a Fleshgrafter build I seem to keep coming back to...). The normal argument is that a subrace, like a variant class, trades out certain racial features for other ones. I don't buy it: a subrace is its own creature that happens to share traits with another creature. It's not just a trade of features.

Well, is there RAW on it? I mean, I see it as less a different species so much as a different way of life, e.g. a strongheart halfling has a human-like outlook on life, adaptability, wanderlust, etc., whereas a water halfling is ... watery? Well, whatever the justification for elemental variants is.

[Gorgondantess]

Hmmm... RAW, it won't work. At all. Nothing says you can't, but by RAW, there's absolutely no evidence that you can, and that's generally the important thing with stuff like this. I think it's really up to DM fiat- RAI, it's all essentially just an ARF.:smalltongue:

[mootoall]

Hmmm... RAW, it won't work. At all. Nothing says you can't, but by RAW, there's absolutely no evidence that you can, and that's generally the important thing with stuff like this. I think it's really up to DM fiat- RAI, it's all essentially just an ARF.:smalltongue:

Gotcha. Yeah, it's just ridiculous to say "Well, nothing by RAW says I can't ..." My favorite example of that is "Okay, an unarmed strike can be any part of your body. So it could be a body slam, right? RAW doesn't say no. And when you're blind, you have a 50% chance to miss, no? So, close your eyes and bodyslam the ground. Half the time, you'll miss and, because it's logical, fly!"

So yeah, long story short, up the the DM.

[Gorgondantess]

Gotcha. Yeah, it's just ridiculous to say "Well, nothing by RAW says I can't ..." My favorite example of that is "Okay, an unarmed strike can be any part of your body. So it could be a body slam, right? RAW doesn't say no. And when you're blind, you have a 50% chance to miss, no? So, close your eyes and bodyslam the ground. Half the time, you'll miss and, because it's logical, fly!"

So yeah, long story short, up the the DM.

As a DM, I would personally allow it for... a few things. Nothing like strongheart water halfling, but something like... I donno... an gold earth dwarf, maybe.

[Gensh]

As a DM, I would personally allow it for... a few things. Nothing like strongheart water halfling, but something like... I donno... an gold earth dwarf, maybe.

Yeah, I'd probably allow it so long as a player had a pretty good background for it, but not just because they want the stats. In one setting I've been building recently, I actually have desert lesser dark elves as a separate race than drow, so take from that what you will.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, I'd probably allow it so long as a player had a pretty good background for it, but not just because they want the stats.

Err... How, exactly?

[Zeful]

"Well, nothing by RAW says I can't ..."

Which is why as a DM I stick with: "If the book doesn't say you can, you can't."

[Gensh]

Err... How, exactly?

Whenever one of my various groups' campaigns end, the next session usually goes like this: "So guys, anybody want to run the game? No? All right, what do you want to play then?" I let my players have as much input on the world as they want to. If someone wanted to give me a rough sketch of a race/subrace's culture, then I'd figure out a way to fit them in the game. If they just said "Can I play a venerable arctic fire grey elf?" then I'd have to facepalm and add that to the list of things Mikey can't play.

[Coidzor]

So in order to play what you want you have to write the fluff for it in an entire world yourself, but if you just ask that's a horrible thing and must be punished, is what I'm getting.

[Keld Denar]

Yea...sounds pretty heavy-handed to me.

I don't see any reason why you can't. You can take 2 difference ACFs at the same time, as long as they don't both trade away the same trait. The above mentioned Glimmerskin Strongheart Halfling, Stronghearts trade the +1 all saves for a bonus feat, and Glimmerskin trade the skill bonuses for the Dragonblooded subtype, Heal as a permanent class skills, and a 1/day immediate action +2 to any one save. Both alter different features.

Fluff-wise, its not hard to justify. If you go back 7 generations, there are 128 ur-parents. If one of them was a dragon, you'd have just a sliver of draconic blood, enough for Dragonblooded. The other 127 ancestors were probably 80-90ish halflings and 30-40ish humans, given that strongheart halflings are more humanblooded than typical halflings. If your draconic blood was another generation up, you'd be 1/256th dragon.

Funny thing is, dragons live a long time, compared to humans or halflings. You could theoretically meet your draconic ur-parent at some point, and he'd probably be a decently strong dragon!

[Urpriest]

Yea...sounds pretty heavy-handed to me.

I don't see any reason why you can't. You can take 2 difference ACFs at the same time, as long as they don't both trade away the same trait. The above mentioned Glimmerskin Strongheart Halfling, Stronghearts trade the +1 all saves for a bonus feat, and Glimmerskin trade the skill bonuses for the Dragonblooded subtype, Heal as a permanent class skills, and a 1/day immediate action +2 to any one save. Both alter different features.


But you aren't actually trading anything. Think about it like this: the Favored Soul can be described as a Spontaneous Variant Cleric that "trades" the Cleric's Wis to spells-per-day for Cha, and turning and domains for a set of thematic abilities and another good save. Does that mean the Favored Soul can take Cleric ACFs that don't interact with these? (For example, what about a Cloistered Favored Soul? What about a Zhentarim Dungeoncrasher OA Samurai?)

It's perfectly plausible that there are Stronheart Halflings with Gold Dragon ancestry. They may even be called Glimmerskin by scholars of Draconic Lore. However, this says nothing, absolutely nothing, about their stats. While it would be reasonable homebrew to say they're just halflings "modified" by the strongheart and glimmerskin "trades", nothing would have prevented WotC from publishing utterly different stats for them, in the same way that Drow with Dragon ancestors are different from High Elves with Dragon ancestors, or halflings with fiendish blood get different abilities than humans with fiendish blood.

[HunterOfJello]

Water Stronheart Halfling? No

Half-Water Halfling Half-Strongheart Halfling? Depends on if your DM is into that sort of thing and is cool with switching out character alternatives like Pathfinder.


~

Being Half-Halfling Half-Halfling might make you a Doubling though.

[Worira]

Water Stronheart Halfling? No

Half-Water Halfling Half-Strongheart Halfling? Depends on if your DM is into that sort of thing and is cool with switching out character alternatives like Pathfinder.


~

Being Half-Halfling Half-Halfling might make you a Doubling though.

The children of two different subraces of halflings are 12 feet tall.

[Gensh]

So in order to play what you want you have to write the fluff for it in an entire world yourself, but if you just ask that's a horrible thing and must be punished, is what I'm getting.

Nah. Point is that I'd let them do it if they said "Hey, can I play ancient aztec elves that live at the north pole and deliver the hearts of their enemies to children on the night of the solstice?" rather than "Hey, can I play this crazy thing because it sounds lulzy?"

[GoatBoy]

Strongheart Halflings trading their +1 to saving throws for a bonus feat implies that it is an even trade. For some reason, the Water template implies that +2 Con, +2 Dex, and -2 Str is the same as +2 Dex and -2 Str, a decision that was likely made under the influence of time constraints and alcohol.

Nevertheless, everyone knows that once something has been committed to print in an official WotC source, it is completely valid and utterly non-negotiable. So it is easy to infer that Strongheart Water Halflings are balances compared to the default Halflings, but if someone tried that in one of my games, they would last about, I'm gonna say, two and a half minutes before rocks fell and everyone died.

So I'd say, legal, but cheesy.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

of course they can. As long as you match the right variant with the right race...


Well yeah if your DM hoserules racial gestalting.WTF? seriously.

Oh and welcome to the boards

[Ormur]

The SRD has rules for environmental racial variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm) which might be from UA originally. So as a DM I'd consider an aquatic strongheart halfling (that is to say if had allowed for either to exists in the campaign world to begin with) with good justification. That said I dislike all those myriad mechanically different subraces and the lack of consideration for interbreeding (although considering WoTC grasp of genetics maybe that's a good thing). If you bother to print dozens of bloody subraces you should allow for the possibility of those ever getting drunk at some tavern together. Russel's teapot knows you've printed enough scary half-this and half-that templates.

The rules for environmental racial variants make a little more sense.

[mootoall]

Regarding the ability modifiers, I believe it's an aditional -2 to str, with an extra +2 to CON and DEX. So it's -4 STR, +2 CON, +4 DEX, with (I believe) a vulnerability to fire spells vis a vis saving throws. I think.

[dgnslyr]

Hrm, I say, "Why not?"
I think that as long as the end result doesn't make a DM cry, it should be okay.

[Pyron]

Regarding the ability modifiers, I believe it's an aditional -2 to str, with an extra +2 to CON and DEX. So it's -4 STR, +2 CON, +4 DEX, with (I believe) a vulnerability to fire spells vis a vis saving throws. I think.

They don't.



Elemental Racial Variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm)

Most of these variant races provide alternate ability adjustments. The ability score adjustments given here supersede the standard race's adjustments.

[HunterOfJello]

The SRD has rules for environmental racial variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm) which might be from UA originally. So as a DM I'd consider an aquatic strongheart halfling (that is to say if had allowed for either to exists in the campaign world to begin with) with good justification. That said I dislike all those myriad mechanically different subraces and the lack of consideration for interbreeding (although considering WoTC grasp of genetics maybe that's a good thing). If you bother to print dozens of bloody subraces you should allow for the possibility of those ever getting drunk at some tavern together. Russel's teapot knows you've printed enough scary half-this and half-that templates.

The rules for environmental racial variants make a little more sense.

The Environmental Variant Races and the Elemental Variant Races are both from Unearthed Arcana.

The big difference between a Water Halfling and a Aquatic Halfling is that one is from the Plane of Water and has abilities related to that, the other lives in the ocean and can't breathe air.


Regarding the ability modifiers, I believe it's an aditional -2 to str, with an extra +2 to CON and DEX. So it's -4 STR, +2 CON, +4 DEX, with (I believe) a vulnerability to fire spells vis a vis saving throws. I think.

If you read the full listing in the Elemental Racial Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm) section of the SRD it describes how, "Most of these variant races provide alternate ability adjustments. The ability score adjustments given here supersede the standard race's adjustments. "

The stats for the Water Halfling are a replacement for the stats of a normal Halfling (also called a Lightfoot Halfling). Water Halflings also receive the general Races of Water traits. These include:


Replacements Stats of +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution

• +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against creatures of the fire
subtype, including extraplanar creatures from the Elemental
Plane of Fire.
• –2 penalty on all saving throws against spells, spell-like
abilities, and supernatural abilities with the fire subtype or
used by creatures of the fire subtype, including extraplanar
creatures from the Elemental Plane of Fire.
• Natural Swimmers: Members of water races have a swim
speed equal to their base land speed. (If the creature already
has a swim speed, it improves by 10 feet.) A water creature can
move through water at its swim speed without making Swim
checks. It has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform
some special action or avoid a hazard. A water creature can
always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted
or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming,
provided it swims in a straight line.

~

Really, you're gaining +2 Con, +1 attack vs. fire subtype creatures, and a Swim speed. In return you gain -2 vs. Fire stuff.

It's a very good trade off to make if you don't mind the scaly skin and clammy flesh.

[Dimers]

... Drow with Dragon ancestors are different from High Elves with Dragon ancestors, [and] halflings with fiendish blood get different abilities than humans with fiendish blood.

Heh. And the children of elves and humans, half-elves, get bonuses to completely different stats than elves. Thank you, 4e. :smalltongue: