ToB Assassin group- Help appreciated

[Welknair]

So, I recently had the idea of having the BBEG hire some swordsage characters to hunt down my PC's with the intent to kill, maim, or at least hinder. My party is comprised of:

9th Level Evoker (Elf): Mostly blasts things. And then blasts some more.
3rd Wiz/3rd Clr/ 3rd Theurge (Human): Likes making magic item. Likes picking odd spells to prepare (Heck, we got the Evoker for pure damage, might as well fit some odd jobs...)
9th Swashbuckler (Human): Comedic. Not a terribly competent character, but he's flashy enough.
9th Barbarian (Half Orc): Scariest of the group. Player is very competent, but luckily he tries (occasionally) to mitigate his plans to coincide with his middling Int score. Much HP. Huge damage output.
.75 Wizard (10 year old human): Long story. I generally control the kid. Occasionally useful. Assassins are to focus on the PCs, not some random runt.
9th Paladin (Human): Newcomer. Don't know much yet.


Objective: Make a group of ToB assassins to challenge and surprise this group. Should be challenging enough for the assassins to either cause the party to flee, or be able to make a safe-escape.

Current Idea: I've drawn up a straight 12th level Swordsage, using some interesting building. Namely, I'm currently planning on 5 assassins. All 5 have: Weapon Finesse, Shadow Hand, Adaptive Style, Gloom Razor, Assassin's stance, and the same set of additional shadow hand moves. In addition, they will have the same gear and base stats, though the clothes may differ a bit.

Idea is to use the leftover feats/maneuvers to have each specialize in one of the other 5 disciplines that Swordsages have access to.



So, my problem is SNEAK ATTACK. So many Shadow Hand abilities cause enemies to be flatfooted, it kills me that they don't get SA, nor is there an easy prestige for a swordsage/assassin with a maneuver/SA progression. There is Assassin's stance as well as things like Deadly Precision weapons (both factored into the current build) but I'm unsatisfied. I could have them be SS 5/Assassin 7 (Or lower :smallconfused:) but then they don't get some of the cooler Shadow Hand moves. With the current build, they do get Shadow Noose which deals large quantities of damage to flat-footed opponents, which makes it seem somewhat worthwhile.

I also found... This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6885801&postcount=23)

This is a modified version of the Assassin to fit in with the ToB.

It kills the spells in return for the maneuver progression, which is nice. However, the fact that only Shadow Hand maneuvers are allowed kills my Shtick with the five slightly different assassins (They'd only get low level maneuvers of their secondary discipline). They also get a number of abilities not in the original Assassin-namely ones focused around poison use. I don't necessarily want these guys to be trying to poison my players every time they fight, partly because it would horribly fail against the Barbarian, while most likely killing everyone else. Either way, I don't see a need for focus on poison so much.

So, what is a DM to do?

Do I stick with my current build? (Giving 3d6 SA while in Assassin's Stance) Note: Current build does not give Isle of Blades, and instead gives Child of Shadows and a 1st level stance from the secondary discipline. This was done for purposes of individualization and Gloom Razor. Also keep in mind Shadow Noose would be great for "Suddenly Assassin! And you're being strangled!"

Is my current build any good? Does this idea make any sense?

Should I suck it up and have them less individualized in return for SA, DA, and some poison abilities they'll never really use?

Do I make my own prestige that fits what I want?

Ideas welcome.


Edit: Planned for them to be encountered in groups of 1-3. Is level 12 way too high? I've seen them drive off a trio of fairly optimized characters a level or two above them before, so I figure that 12 is in the ballpark.

[Runestar]

One idea is to use the ToB raksasha and split him up into 4 separate monsters. Each is cr7, IIRC, so 4 would be an EL11 encounter, definitely challenging enough for the party. Since all 4 have for most part the same stats, it should help simplify your book-keeping, and the different maneuvers can add some variety to the fight.:smallsmile:

[Dusk Eclipse]

One idea is to use the ToB raksasha and split him up into 4 separate monsters. Each is cr7, IIRC, so 4 would be an EL11 encounter, definitely challenging enough for the party. Since all 4 have for most part the same stats, it should help simplify your book-keeping, and the different maneuvers can add some variety to the fight.:smallsmile:

+1 to this, that is the whole shtick of those Rakshasa, besides you could give them a three rogue levels (bumping them to CR 8 each I think) and giving them two SA dice.

The whole encounter (according to this encounter level calculato (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm)r) should be 12 which according to the table on the DMG is a very difficult encounter, which seems to be what you are after.

Note that I didn't factor the Wiz Kid, as I didn't understand if he has actual class level.

[Escheton]

Intimidating strike+coup de grace.
Anything really that makes the target helpless for a few moments so another assassin can cut their throat will do.
3 rounds and death attack is nice, for like 1 of em.
Having 1 be a monk with high dc stunning fists and another with an ice burst heavy pick and sneak attack will kill just as good.

[Welknair]

Note that I didn't factor the Wiz Kid, as I didn't understand if he has actual class level.

I wanted to introduce a young wizard to admire and follow around our evoker. The idea was to have maximum cuteness. Anyways, the standard rules would mean that he has to be at least... I don't know. Around 18? :smallconfused:

Anyways, that didn't jive. So... I made the "Zero Level Progression" for Wizard.
The idea was simple. Divide up the abliities a character gets at first level and disperse them throughout levels .25, .5, .75, and finally 1 where things start working normally. 99% of characters progress through these levels during the training for their first class. For the wizard, a .25 level character gets one cantrip a day, slowly working towards the amount at 1st. You get the normal skill ranks per level (Thus you get 4X the skill ranks at 1st level. Hey, that fit oddly well).

Anyways, to sum it up, he has 3 HP, can cast 2 cantrips and 2 1st level spells a day. He's situationally useful.


I'm considering posting the idea in Homebrew...



That was kind of offtopic. Back to the matter at hand: I'm hesitant to use the Rakshasa, just as I am hesitant to use an ecclectic combination for maximum damage. I was going for the Five-Styles assassin theme. While the Rakshasa would probably work, the BBEG doesn't really have any contacts that would allow him to hire them. Not to mention, the homeland of the Rakshasa is on a different continent than that of the current story. And I was hoping to focus primarily on five characters that had identical abilities save for their second discipline. It would also be preferable if they could go solo when needed, as opposed to have abilities that were entirely interdependent. That doesn't mean that I don't want them to have any capacity for teamwork, I just don't want them to have builds focused around it.



Hmm... What if I thew away my old idea of the 5 and started over? It's seeming like the idea isn't very plausible...

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106710) is promising...

[TheStillWind]

Highish Level Crusader/Dragonfire Inspire Bard and a few midlevel Swordsages and a few low level swordsages.


Bard has perform(Inspirational Battle Tactics) uses white raven maneuvers and bardic abilities to support his assassin team. He issues strange orders like Tango Setti Alpha Formation! The assassins attack in formation and intelligently. They do things like delay actions while waiting for the first guy to hit with a setting sun throw maneuver then they chain throw him to their leader's feet. Give the leader ranks in UMD and a wand of regroup. some of the assassins use assassin stance the others use island of blades. Use hand of death to throw paralysis around.

[Escheton]

mook 1: monk/swordsage focused on garrote wires and thus grappling sneak attacks
mook 2:straight swordsage focused on the arcane-ish maneuvers
mook 3: straight swordsage focused on dualwield maneuvers
mook 4: fighter/swordsage focused on combat control
mook 5: swordsage/assassin, leader-ish and focused on death attack and coup the grace

each work well alone, but better together.

[Welknair]

Quite the idea for an effective team. What book is Dragonfire Inspire Bard in?

[TheStillWind]

It is a feat in dragon magic that gives bonus a fire damage d6 all of your allies attack. For every point of inspire courage. Combine it with some of the ways to give you extra bonuses to inspire courage and it makes the whole team do 10-15 or so average damage on every attack. It adds up.

[Runestar]

Well, the naityan raksasha isn't really any different from a normal martial adept in terms of of well they solo, nor do they really have any abilities which are teamwork-oriented. Plus, they essentially just spam the 1 same maneuver every round, which makes them easier to run.

Nor do they have to be raksashas, you can always reflavour them as something else. Conveniently enough, there are 4 of them anyways, so they could be the 4 kings, or 4 guardians or whatever.

I personally try not to use so many martial adepts in the same fight because I had issues with keeping track of all their maneuvers readied/expended.

Alternatively, you could consider chokers with lvs in either crusader or warblade (but not swordsage!). The premise is simple - spam 2 maneuvers every round; you can afford this with crusader auto-refreshing every 3 rounds, or warblade's free-refresh on a full-attack. Swordsages kinda get the short end of the stick with their crappy recharge mechanic. :smallannoyed:

[Galileo]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcgDgwNR1ZE) is how you run a band of hero-hunting villains hired by the major Big Bad. Read the subtitles while listening to it.

[MammonAzrael]

Ok, I didn't read your entire post as my eyes are getting tired tonight. But I did feel I must show you the brilliant work of GitP's own Krimm Blackleaf, and his ToB assassin, the Angel of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62659).

[Cespenar]

Why not Rogue/Swordsage?

[Eldariel]

Ruby Knight Vindicators are competent assassins too. One would provide the group with Clerical buffs (most notably, weapon and armor enhancements without having to give infinite treasure; that and various To Hit boosters and such) and what amounts to a stealthy frontliner. With the right domains (e.g. Travel), he'd also provide the assassins with the kind of mobility they want to hit fast and hard.

I'd make at least one Crusader 1/Cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator Max for the group. Let him be the group's taxi and a force multiplier. Bard/Crusader or Bard/Warblade would be a second solid one, since Bard gets stealthy skills and spells to buff stealth too. Dragonfire Inspiration is from Dragon Magic, btw; adds 1D6 damage to attacks instead of normal Inspire Courage bonuses, 1d6 per each +1 the normal Inspire would grant (so 3d6 energy damage if you could normally Inspire for +3/+3).


The rest could be straight Swordsages, which really work fine. You don't need that much SA with the maneuvers. And if you want extra damage, you can give them Craven-feat [Champions of Ruin] which gives them their character level in Sneak Attack.

[FelixG]

One thing I would consider, have the characters receive a guide, random NPC #374. When combat begins have the leader kill him in his sleep to rouse the PCs, granted they will be fairly weakened as they dont have their armor on or their spells prepared.

One fun tactic could be giving the assassins items of invisibility blink or dimension door so they can jump across the field of battle quickly to support one another and keep the PCs on their feet, I did this once and my players thought it was one of the most fun combats they had been in

[Welknair]

One fun tactic could be giving the assassins items of invisibility blink or dimension door so they can jump across the field of battle quickly to support one another and keep the PCs on their feet, I did this once and my players thought it was one of the most fun combats they had been in

Those can all be accomplished by Shadow Hand maneuvers.



It is a feat in dragon magic that gives bonus a fire damage d6 all of your allies attack. For every point of inspire courage. Combine it with some of the ways to give you extra bonuses to inspire courage and it makes the whole team do 10-15 or so average damage on every attack. It adds up.
Wow, too bad I don't have dragon magic. Though I could of course look the feat up for the sake of the character...


I don't think that these guys are what I'm looking for, but I definitely like that idea and may use i later on.


Why not Rogue/Swordsage?
No maneuver progression for Rogue.


Ok, I didn't read your entire post as my eyes are getting tired tonight. But I did feel I must show you the brilliant work of GitP's own Krimm Blackleaf, and his ToB assassin, the Angel of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62659).
Very similar to


This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106710)



Upon further reflection, having even three swordsages that I hadn't had much prior experience with fighting at the same time would be Hell to run. I'm now leaning towards a single Assassin, most likely of the Shadow Assassin or Angel of Death prestige classes, both of which have been posted here.

[RufusCorvus]

Chances are, a single opponent would be murdered real quick, especially if the Barbarian deals as much damage as you say he does. I think having a team of Swordsages would work out best. At the same time, I wouldn't optimize them too much. Just judging from the class choices, it doesn't look like your players go for it.

Not much else I can say other than one opponent vs. 5.75 players is not going to end well for the opponent.

[Welknair]

Chances are, a single opponent would be murdered real quick, especially if the Barbarian deals as much damage as you say he does. I think having a team of Swordsages would work out best. At the same time, I wouldn't optimize them too much. Just judging from the class choices, it doesn't look like your players go for it.

Not much else I can say other than one opponent vs. 5.75 players is not going to end well for the opponent.

Well, the problem with the team of Swordsages is their large number of unique moves. I'd be keeping track of five slightly different maneuver lists. Admittedly, having them use the same base stats and feats would make things a little easier... But I get the feeling if I were to use the five that the party would manage to kill at least one. I think a safer bet is a single character of around 12th level that I play expertly. In out. If he doesn't kill or maim a PC on the first round, he uses Shadow Jaunt to get the hell out of there.

[true_shinken]

Well, you want assassins, you want a swordsage and you need numbers.
Solution?
1 swordsage 'master assassin' and extra non-ToB 'mook assassins'.
Say, 1x Swordsage 10 and 4x Ninja 6.

[RufusCorvus]

Then use three slightly higher level Swordsages. The point is to make the party divide their efforts. With the one Swordsage, you have just about no room for error. Even if his plan is expertly constructed, a few good rolls from the PCs can ruin the encounter.

With even three Swordsages, you have enough leeway that you can probably manage to have at least one get away if things go south really quick. You could also probably get away with all of them having the same stat block, making your life a lot easier.

[Chambers]

Check this out. (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update)

Sneak Attack & Shadow Hand maneuvers.

[Newbieshoes]

For everyone talking about sneak attack. The nastiest one of them in straight melee combat is immune unless you make a 13th level character.


Now a nasty tactic used against my party in a recent game was the assassins were invisible except the leader who stood out in the open and distracted the party with the whole "nothing personal, its just business" speech while his friends all moved into position with invisibility behind and kicked off a surprise round. One of the assassins (the caster) stood back with a scroll of mass snakes swiftness (targets can take an immediate single melee attack) and kicked that off after all the assassin's acted in the surprise round. Gave them all 2 hits in the surprise round.

[RufusCorvus]

For everyone talking about sneak attack. The nastiest one of them in straight melee combat is immune unless you make a 13th level character.

Immune to sneak attacks from flanking. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#improvedUncannyDodge) Get him flat-footed and he's still vulnerable.

Nevermind. Being stupid. Again.

[Greenish]

Immune to sneak attacks from flanking. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#improvedUncannyDodge) Get him flat-footed and he's still vulnerable.That's what Uncanny Dodge is for.

[RufusCorvus]

Oops. :smalleek:

[Cespenar]

No maneuver progression for Rogue.

Non-initiator classes add up to your total initiator level, albeit at a half rate. So, a Rogue 11/Swordsage 1 would have an initiator level of 6 and could pick 3rd level maneuvers.

Not to mention a whopping +6d6 sneak attack right from the start.

[Saint GoH]

I think possibly the best choice for this situation has been mentioned. Stat out one optimized, Shadow Hand specc'd assassin. He will be your primary assassin. then have 3-6 underlings with varying levels of rogue/fighter/swordsage.

One level in swordsage will give you a stance to play around with so you can still have the mooks running around as children of shadows, doing minor assassin-ish things like seeming to blur into darkness as they run. They will be hindrances. Yes, it would be kickass to have 5 specc'd out assassin's but as you've already understood the logistics of that is mind boggling.

Heck, you can even use the rahkshasa mentioned previously as the mooks, because they are pretty terrifying as enemies, and their descriptions can only further the terror (half panther/snake things that rip peoples faces off with backward hands while teleporting through the shadows? Eek).

Might I suggest dropping the squishiest party member first? Maybe someone hangin out in the back then suddenly *boom* 2 assassins sneak attack. While the barbarian rushes to intervene have other mooks break stealth and hit the party members he just left behind. Tactical suicide really for the first 2 mooks, devastating for the rest of the party.

[Welknair]

I'm thinking that the last suggestion is the winner. Gives me a cool Assassin Char a few levels above the party (Heh heh. Level 13) along with a few (four?) assassin-y mooks to divide efforts.

So... I'm thinking Swordsage 5/Angel of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62659) 8 for the main, and... I don't know. Swordsage 4/Rogue 4? (Of course the rogue levels would have been gotten first)

So that's a CR 13 and four CR 8's. The mooks would be strong enough to distract and harm players yet not enough to take one down in a straight fight.

[MammonAzrael]

As written Angel of Death can't be entered into by a straight Swordsage until 6th level, but I don't think changing that would be backbreaking. :smalltongue: Yay for homebrew!

I'd suggest playing the Master assassin defensively, giving you the option of a recurring villain the players can fear, especially if you give him a fun personality.

[Welknair]

He should be able to meet all the preq--

BAB. Curse you all.


Anyways, yeah. He'll start by "Testing" the PCs for his master, more or less to judge whether or not they are any threat, or could be tempted to stray from their path. Thus, cool encounter above their ability to defeat without them actually getting killed.

[MammonAzrael]

Well, you're the DM, you can change it by a level it you want.

In that case I'm thinking that you'd want to have the guy in the Stance of Death for the most part, and choose the paralyze option when it comes up. If he focuses his maneuvers mostly on boosts and counters then he'll be free to full attack often.

If you want to be nasty, make it a pixie. Swordsage 5/Angel of Death 4 is still ECL 13, and will be quite hard to pin down. Giving him 32 point buy could be very hard to kill, especially if focused on defense like Shifting Defense.

[JaronK]

I really like Rogue 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Unarmed Swordsage X as a ninja build anyway, so why not use that? Assassin's Stance means the guy gets +4d6 sneak attack anyway. And he's got trap finding!

Another solid one is Factotum X/Unarmed Swordsage 2 for assassins. Use Iajuitsu Focus with a Gnomish Quickrazor for your damage, and use Swordsage for shadow hand teleports and invisibility (and assassin's stance). Consider using Terrifying Strike and Sickening Strike so that his attacks kill enemy saves (since he does have 2d6 sneak attack) and then making use of poison (with the Master of Poisons feat) to finish the job.

The Imperious Command feat can work wonders as well, especially with Never Outnumbered. One assassin can jump into the middle of the group out of hiding and use this to make all of them cower, while the rest engage.

Also consider using an Inspire Awe Bard. If you can hear him, save vs his perform check (read: don't save unless you're immune to fear) or be shaken while he's nearby. This stacks with other fear effects, so if they're sent up to higher fear levels they stay that way until they stop hearing the Bard. If you want, there's already a feat for combining Bard and Crusader. This may be too much for your party... they don't seem to be fear immune, and this could easily make the entire party cower endlessly without giving them a chance.

JaronK

[Welknair]

Well, you're the DM, you can change it by a level it you want.

In that case I'm thinking that you'd want to have the guy in the Stance of Death for the most part, and choose the paralyze option when it comes up. If he focuses his maneuvers mostly on boosts and counters then he'll be free to full attack often.

If you want to be nasty, make it a pixie. Swordsage 5/Angel of Death 4 is still ECL 13, and will be quite hard to pin down. Giving him 32 point buy could be very hard to kill, especially if focused on defense like Shifting Defense.

You read my mind. If he's "Testing" them, then of course he'd go for stun instead of the kill. However, I'm not so sure about making him being a pixie. Not very intimidating.


As for the mooks, suggestions for levels? I would like them to be about level 8, all being exactly the same. Not sure whether or not I want them to have swordsage levels. Pretty sure I don't want them to have DA however. Do you think swordsage 4/rogue 4 would work?

JaronK, I think that's a little bit more complex than I want to be dealing with at the moment. Not to mention it uses several classes and feats of which I am not familiar.

[true_shinken]

As for the mooks, suggestions for levels? I would like them to be about level 8, all being exactly the same. Not sure whether or not I want them to have swordsage levels. Pretty sure I don't want them to have DA however. Do you think swordsage 4/rogue 4 would work?

I think you want the mooks to be simpler, right? Then I advise against Swordsage.
Rokugan Ninja should do what you want. They don't have many tricks, but they have sneak attack, good attack bonus, mobility (well, Tumble) and stealth.
You can even make jokes about conservation of ninjutsu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu?from=Main.ConservationOfNin jitsu) when the remaining ninjaswordsage reveals all his awesomeness.
Also, 4 CR 8 + one CR 10 oponents is a CR 13 fight, overpowering for a level 9 party. Well, you do want them to lose, so I guess it should work.

[Welknair]

Where is the Rokugan ninja? He's not in ToB or any of my other books that I know of. But otherwise, that sounds like what I want.

[MammonAzrael]

Well no, not initially. How would your party react to a pixie "standing" in the road threatening them?

And then how would they feel when that pixie dodges nearly every blow, dances among them, throws the barbarian 20 feet into another party member, paralyzes the squishies and flits off with a laugh? Plus the flight, invisibility, DR, and SR give him a much greater chance to escape when he chooses.

As for the mooks, You want them to be easy to play, yes? Martial adepts are awesome, but do require some book-keeping. It may be easier to just run them as Rogues or Ninjas. I would think standard stealth builds would be effective enough glass cannons...especially if they were rocking some poison.

[Welknair]

Conclusion: Mooks are not to be Martial Adepts. Instead I am now leaning towards 8th level rogues or Ninja. Bit towards rogue.

Despite how hilarious the Pixie would be, it's not the impression that I'm going for. It would be a humbling, but not terrifying experience.


Hmm. What if the mooks were Rogue 8 with shadow blade technique, child of shadows stance, and the shadow blade feat? Hmmph. Three feats out of their four. Nope. Swordsage 1/Rogue 7? That would be simple enough and they would all have exactly the same set of maneuvers/stances. What about that? (I'm fond of the swarm of shadowy shapes darting towards the party, as well as using strength as a dumpstat)

[true_shinken]

Where is the Rokugan ninja? He's not in ToB or any of my other books that I know of. But otherwise, that sounds like what I want.
Rokugan Ninja is available for free here (http://www.l5r.com/archive/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf)

[Saint GoH]

If you reaaally want to make the mooks scary, might I suggest a Daring Outlaw Swashbuckler/Rogue combo?

High Int gives them decent skills to make up for their loss of rogue levels as well as a damage mod, Swashbuckler gives them a good BAB and Daring Outlaw gives the sneak attack. Plus, they can still stand frontline (sort of) against the party with d10 HD. At least long enough for the real assassin to cause some damage.

And of course you could still spend a few feats on shadow blades and stances and what nots.

[Welknair]

Thank you, Shinken. However, given my world's setup Oriental classes are on a separate continent from the current adventure, and the assassin group is local.


Hmm, mook survivability might be an issue. As such, straight rogue wouldn't work. With the Daring Outlaw build, would he go for just enough rogue to get the feat and then go straight Swash, scamming SA off the feat?

[Runestar]

Classed npcs tend to be quite weak for their cr, and I have not been particularly impressed with rogue-type npcs in my game (too squishy and dependent on SA for damage).


What if the mooks were Rogue 8 with shadow blade technique, child of shadows stance, and the shadow blade feat?

Too many feats wasted on maneuvers. You will still want weapon finesse, and possible a means of staying alive like spring attack.

Besides, you may as well go tiefling rogue4/swashbuckler4. Better stats overall, plus you still get full sneak attack. Works well with TWFing.

Alternatively, rogue7/scout1 with swift ambusher and improved skirmish (complete scoundrel) feats. Your attacks deal +4d6 SA and +4d6 skirmish if you move 20ft each round. Use fractional bab to compensate for the lost bab.

If you really want to get to deal SA damage reliably, consider providing spellcaster support, such as a wizard or beguiler hanging at the back, prebuffing the npcs with greater invis, while debuffing the PCs with spells like sculpted glitterdust and slow. :smallsmile:

So maybe the final makeup: human beguiler8 and 2 tiefling rogue3/swashbuckler4 for an EL10 encounter?

[Saint GoH]

Thank you, Shinken. However, given my world's setup Oriental classes are on a separate continent from the current adventure, and the assassin group is local.


Hmm, mook survivability might be an issue. As such, straight rogue wouldn't work. With the Daring Outlaw build, would he go for just enough rogue to get the feat and then go straight Swash, scamming SA off the feat?

I would. Though it depends on what you want them to do. Run up walls and make stunning climb checks/hide checks/knowledge checks (to find the PC's?)/jump checks/pretty much any checks? Or do you want them to live a few extra rounds?

Your call. Although runestar I find it ironic you would mention statted rogues being weak for their cr then giving a glass cannon using primarily rogue levels :smalltongue:

[Welknair]

Hmmph. I think a little more info on the group is in order.

The group is a squad of an Assassin's Guild, located in a large town. The elites and leaders use the swordsage/angel of death build. I think it may be prudent for them to hypothetically have three main subtypes.

1. Swordsage/Angel of Death. Hard hitter, main assassin.
2. Something with a deal more survivability. Thinking Rogue/Fighter now. Rogue 3/fighter 5 probably. Just enough for the sneaky flavor before going for the survivability.
3. Similar Rogue 3/Wizard 5 for support. Note: Practiced spellcaster for CL and the fact that spells can SA. As long as they have attack rolls. Would Sorcerer perhaps be better?

Each group would be comprised of a single Angel, probably three or four Sneak Fighters, and a single Sneak Wiz. The Fighters would be in charge of positioning, blocking, and general field control while the Angel methodically works through dropping people. The Wiz focuses on buffs and debuffs, probably invising the group before they strike if they are in an open area. They would start combat with a scorching ray or the like, before switching to spells to better control the battle. Most of this work is still to set the Angel up for their maximum effect. Quite possibly, the Wiz wouldn't actually enter battle unless necessary (Thus reducing the ability sets I need to think about by one).


Thoughts?

[Saint GoH]

I like it. Clean and simple. Plus, this sets up the for there to be more of these groups (or at least the possible threat of more).

I would say go Wizard vs Sorc. Wizard would have a better synergy with Rogue (go go high int) and if you do actually decide to use them can make the battle swing in the assassins favor via color spray, grease, blind (i think wiz's get that? away from book) and of course ranged nuking using Scorching Ray and SA.

[Welknair]

Sounds like we have a winner!

I've never made a fighter/rogue before. Should I actually make a character that has rogue levels but not Weapon Finesse? Given the primary bit being fighter, I don't think they'd really need that much of a high in Dex-just enough to be decent with hide/move silently. And of course decent Con would be a must. Mental stats aren't really needed for mooks. :smallbiggrin:

[MammonAzrael]

Sound like you've found what you're liking, but here is a rough draft of the pixie I was thinking of (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=258289) if you're curious on want to use him in the future.

Some highlights:

9 AoO a round, which translates into 9 attacks he can 5' step out of the way of in Shifting Defense
Activating his Speed armor for Haste and using Flashing Sun while invisible gives him a full attack of 30/30/30/25 for 1d4+7+2d6 against a target denied their Dex to AC, and if just two of the attacks hit they have to make a DC 21 Fort save or die/be paralyzed. Plus extra damage from Open Wound. Add an extra 1d6+5 fire damage per hit if you use Burning Blade.
Mind Over Body covers weak Fort save
Mirrored Pursuit plus at-will invisibility makes it very difficult to escape
Comet Throw on this guy is hilarious
Island of Blades and Shadow Garrote are both helpful for mooks
Hunter's Sense stance allows for greater tracking of his target
Solid AC plus DR 10 and SR 24 gives him quite a solid defense, making up for his lower HP total
Most of his wealth is in only a few items, so it's easier to track...plus, only the mooks are expected to die! :smalltongue:


EDIT: for the mooks, do all of them need Rogue levels? The casters especially, could be happy assassins without ever needs to perform an actual Sneak Attack. They could just buff with (greater) invisibility and battlefield control and such and be quite nice.

[Welknair]

Very cool pixie.


As for the mooks, I'm also considering their need of rogue levels. With Practiced Spellcaster, they would maintain their CL, they'd just cast 3rd level spells instead of 4th, in addition to being particularly sneaky. Not really necessary though. The fighters, however, need the levels for the stealth, SA, and general flavor (You can't have an assassin guild made mostly of characters without some form of SA.

Edit: Why didn't I make the Angel a Tiefling in the first place? It's in keeping with rest of it. Only question is whether or not to drop him down to Angel 7th to accommodate the Level Adjustment. I'm reluctant to do so as he would lose some nifty maneuvers... CR 14 for a single...

What I am now thinking is that he will be a recurring villain. To begin with he and his lackies will periodically test them, judging their strength. However, they are instructed not to kill, only to ascertain their strength. Later they are told that they are to try and hamper or divert the group. And finally to kill them. As such, there will be a progression in their tactics. In the testing phase, they most likely will be encountering only one at a time, either for the Angel to directly judge, or to see if they can take a single mook. At hamper we get the Angel with a mook, or three mooks. At kill, we're doing the whole shebang (Wow, that's actually a word, but "Mook" isn't). This setup should work and allow me my nifty CR 14 Assassin. Scary.

[Seerow]

Fighter 5 is a wasted level from an optimization standpoint. Since it's just an NPC I'm not sure how much you care, but seeing any build that includes Fighter 5 makes me cringe.

You may want to look for some flavor fitting PrC to jump into after Rogue 3/Fighter4 (or even 2 if you can manage it), or just go Rogue4/Fighter4 (that way you get Uncanny Dodge, hardly a terrible ability for the more hardy assassin you're looking for).

Also I'm nearly certain there's a fighter variant that gives up some feats for a sneak attack progression, but I'm having trouble finding it. Something like that may be up your alley as well.

[MammonAzrael]

The variant fighter with sneak attack is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter).

Fighter is nice a simple, though I think you'll get more out of using Swashbuckler. Unless you wanted to have your sneaky dudes running around in heavy armor. :smalltongue:

Also, instead of a wizard or sorcerer, why not a Spelltheif? It is nearly perfect, flavor-wise. As long as you're fine with the much lower level spells, of course.

@ Runestar - Also, Swift Hunter only stacks for Skirmish bonuses, it doesn't stack for Sneak Attack dice.

[Runestar]

Your call. Although runestar I find it ironic you would mention statted rogues being weak for their cr then giving a glass cannon using primarily rogue levels

Plain rogues, undeniably yes. They have crap fort/will saves (making them way too vulnerable to spells which can shut them down outright), and SA is too situational without the appropriate support.

Heck, for that same cr, I could easily be fielding a babau in place. :smallcool:

Which is why I suggested multiclassing for additional abilities. Although I made a mistake in my earlier post (forgetting that swift ambusher requires 3 lvs in scout), so it will probably be rogue3/scout4, for +2d6 SA and +4d6 skirmish (not as stellar as I envisioned, so scratch that idea).

Although in hindsight, yeah, rogue/scouts still seem as fragile. :smallconfused:


3. Similar Rogue 3/Wizard 5 for support. Note: Practiced spellcaster for CL and the fact that spells can SA. As long as they have attack rolls. Would Sorcerer perhaps be better?

If you have complete mage (and are willing to spend a little more time statting him up), human rogue1/wiz4/unseen seer3 might be better, netting you 4th lv spells, and you can use able learner to continue maxing out critical skills on the cheap.

[Welknair]

Why didn't I make the Angel a Tiefling in the first place? It's in keeping with rest of it. Only question is whether or not to drop him down to Angel 7th to accommodate the Level Adjustment. I'm reluctant to do so as he would lose some nifty maneuvers... CR 14 for a single...

What I am now thinking is that he will be a recurring villain. To begin with he and his lackies will periodically test them, judging their strength. However, they are instructed not to kill, only to ascertain their strength. Later they are told that they are to try and hamper or divert the group. And finally to kill them. As such, there will be a progression in their tactics. In the testing phase, they most likely will be encountering only one at a time, either for the Angel to directly judge, or to see if they can take a single mook. At hamper we get the Angel with a mook, or three mooks. At kill, we're doing the whole shebang (Wow, that's actually a word, but "Mook" isn't). This setup should work and allow me my nifty CR 14 Assassin. Scary.


As for the mook's stats. I think the rogue 4/fighter 4 would probably be optimum as was suggested. The wizards will no longer be given the rogue levels and instead have Spell Focus (Illusion).

I am going for something a bit simpler for the mooks as the Angel alone takes so much thought to play. I have made a spellthief in the past and it was interesting, but I don't think that it would fill the support role that is needed here. Though they undoubtedly have a few on retainer that they may call in for the pesky spellcasters... (Poor .75 wizard, losing his only first level spells :smallfrown:).

[MammonAzrael]

Well you could just go with a lesser tiefling then and avoid that pesky LA.

Make sure the Angel has an escape route, as getting ganged up on could make running away either unlikely or undignified, reducing the parties fear of him.

Additionally, be careful when you go the "kill 'em all" route, as the Angel's death attacks will become a lot more serious, very quickly. Especially if he has progressed to AoD 10 and has the Angel's Edge stance.

Don't forget to pre-poison their weapons! :smallbiggrin: That way you can spend some of their wealth realistically while not giving it to your players. Plus some buff scrolls, like scrolls of Greater Invisibility, the Bull's Strength line, Haste, Mass Snake's Swiftness, Heroism, and Hunter's Eye.

[Runestar]

NPCs don't care about LA. Tieflings are +0cr, so a tiefling rogue1/wiz7 would still be cr8.

[Welknair]

Hmm... Are you sure about the NPC LA? I don't remember reading that anywhere.

The Angel will almost always have Cloak of Deception and Shadow Blink readied, and he will always save at least one in case things get ugly. Too bad UMD isn't a class skill...

The aforementioned spellcaster mooks will have all of those spells prepared and most likely dump them all on the squad just before the battle is joined.

I plan that they won't go for the kill until a while from now, most likely when the players are a deal closer in level. And then he has a particular flaw that causes him to gloat, making sure that the players know that he defeated them. As such, he'll almost always be using the DA for stuns (Which is just as good for killing, plus you could capture them all and see if the lord dude would pay more for them alive.

[Greenish]

Hmm... Are you sure about the NPC LA? I don't remember reading that anywhere.Yes, ECL and CR are separate concepts.

[Welknair]

Yes, ECL and CR are separate concepts.

Huh. Oh, I think I get it. LA is to compensate for abilities that make the player more powerful than her comrades but in usually subtle, or situational ways. CR on the other hand is raw combat power. Though I would assume a creature with a massive LA would have some sort of CR adjustment... Hm.

[Welknair]

So opinions of what to do to optimize the Rogue/Fighters? 4/4 seems decent, though I'm a bit worried about survivability. If I made them have adjusted Cons of 14 or 16 with the 8 HD that gives them an additional 16 or 24. Going with average values... 3.5*4+5.5*4+16 from Con=52 HP. Hmm. Assuming middling Dex, they'd probably be using decent armor to try to give their AC a boost, though the check penalty to Hide/Move silently could be problematic. Assuming that the guild doesn't want to buy mithral gear for the lackies, they'd probably be using +1 or +2 Breast Plate, for a Check Penalty of -3 and an AC boost of 6 or 7. Assuming Dex of 12 or 13, that's going to be around AC 17. Ooch. How do I get around the check penalties without mithral or enchanted gear? Perhaps a feat that reduces it? I know Dread Commando and, in fact Angel of Death both reduce the penalties (though it's kind of wasted on the Angel as they are not proficient with anything but light armor anyways). I don't want the mooks having prestige classes though. Is there perhaps a feat that they could get to reduce the penalty? I guess that I could give them +1 light steel shields and that wouldn't increase the check penalty... But AC 18 may not be enough to really hold back the Barbarian... Enough to buy the needed time perhaps...

[true_shinken]

So opinions of what to do to optimize the Rogue/Fighters?
Rogue 3/Fighter 5... using the Sneak Attack Fighter variant. 7d6 sneak attack, bab +7. Add the hit and run variant from Drow of the Underdark (+2 Initiative, +Dex modifier on damage against flanked foes) and you have one nasty set of buggers. Add TWF and quicksilver boots and your players will hate you forever.

[Greenish]

Add the hit and run variant from Drow of the Underdark (+2 Initiative, +Dex modifier on damage against flanked foes)It's dex to damage vs. flat footed foes, if my memory serves.

[true_shinken]

It's dex to damage vs. flat footed foes, if my memory serves.

You are, of course, correct. ^^

[Welknair]

Rogue 3/Fighter 5... using the Sneak Attack Fighter variant. 7d6 sneak attack, bab +7. Add the hit and run variant from Drow of the Underdark (+2 Initiative, +Dex modifier on damage against flanked foes) and you have one nasty set of buggers. Add TWF and quicksilver boots and your players will hate you forever.
Hmm. Is the extra D10 HD and BAB from the fifth level of fighter worth not having uncanny dodge?

I might give the boots to the angel as well, now that I look at them.

The fighter levels will be using the SA variant (they don't need the fighter bonus feats anyways, only the survivability). But given that they won't have huge amounts of dex, the hit and run wouldn't help too terrible much plus the fact that they're actually supposed to be capable of a bit of tanking (not a lot, just a little) to occupy the PCs while the Angel goes through using Stance of Death to paralyze them.

[true_shinken]

Hmm. Is the extra D10 HD and BAB from the fifth level of fighter worth not having uncanny dodge?

I might give the boots to the angel as well, now that I look at them.

The fighter levels will be using the SA variant (they don't need the fighter bonus feats anyways, only the survivability). But given that they won't have huge amounts of dex, the hit and run wouldn't help too terrible much plus the fact that they're actually supposed to be capable of a bit of tanking (not a lot, just a little) to occupy the PCs while the Angel goes through using Stance of Death to paralyze them.

Tanking? Maybe you would want to check my defensive fighting guide. Looks like a perfect fit.

[Welknair]

An interesting read. First, I completely forgot about Combat Expertise. Given that the mooks won't be the damage dealers when they are acting as semi-tanks, Combat Expertise fits the bill. The plus 5 to AC brings it up to 23 which is within acceptable reaches. The rest of the guide is equally interesting, though I probably shouldn't optimize them too much as the players aren't terribly optimized. AC 23 is enough to challenge them without making them impossible to hit.


And I just gave the Angel Deadly Defense. Given that he has a +20 to hit (+11 BAB + 1 Dagger + 1 Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand Weapons) + 1 Weapon of Choice + 6 from dex (weapon finesse)) he'll probably be doing full Combat Expertise anyways as to dodge every attack. And then a reliable +1d6 damage is always appreciated.

Now he has one feat left...

He has: Combat Expertise, Oncoming Storm Ambush (Oncoming Storm discipline, allowing you to delay SA damage one turn in return for increasing it from d6s to d8s), Deadly Defense now, Gloom Razor, Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse, Wep Foc (Shadow Hand weapons), and Adaptive Style.

Weapon Focus was a bonus from the Swordsage levels and he has the Conceited (-6 Bluff, Diplomacy, and Gather Information) and Narcissistic and Curious flaws. Narcissistic fits his personality and he has such a high Will Save, he has a 10% chance to act on the curiousness. However, it works well with the whole "Stalker" thing as he follows the players and picks up on unusual traits by investigating them because he's "Curious".


Edit: Oops. Forgot that he lost the Human bonus feat when I turned him into a tiefling... That's it then.

[Greenish]

And I just gave the Angel Deadly Defense. Given that he has a +20 to hit (+11 BAB + 1 Dagger + 1 Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand Weapons) + 1 Weapon of Choice + 6 from dex (weapon finesse)) he'll probably be doing full Combat Expertise anyways as to dodge every attack. And then a reliable +1d6 damage is always appreciated.

Now he has one feat left...

He has: Combat Expertise, Oncoming Storm Ambush (Oncoming Storm discipline, allowing you to delay SA damage one turn in return for increasing it from d6s to d8s), Deadly Defense now, Gloom Razor, Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse, Wep Foc (Shadow Hand weapons), and Adaptive Style.Actually, I recommend Oncoming Storm Expertise instead of Deadly Defense. You can drop your to-hit by 5 with Combat Expertise, then gain it back by using OSE. It reduces the damage you'll deal with that attack, true, but the main source of your damage will be the Oncoming Storm Ambush that's not part of your damage roll for that attack, and thus not reduced.

[Welknair]

Hmm.. Base damage from the dagger is 1d4+9 currently. So if we did full Combat Expertise and full oncoming storm expertise, he'd get +5 AC for the price of dealing 0-3 base damage per attack. However, Dance of the Phantom Blade would allow him to be using his monstrous sleight of hand to feint every turn as a swift action. With that he'd be getting large amount of SA damage anyways. 4d6... Average of 14 damage per SA. Then again, he gets three attacks per round which would be at 20/15/10 with a near-guarantee that the first two hit. Hmm.

With his monstrous AB he should be able to hit most of the part as is, even at full Combat Expertise. That with Dance of the Phantom Blade would allow him to deal the most damage. Given that the highest AC is that of the Barbarian (22, I believe) he should be able to hit reliably even at full combat exp, without having to sacrifice damage.

On the other hand, Deadly Defense gives him an additional 1d6 while using Combat Expertise to get even a +2 to AC.


Decisions decisions...

Perhaps I'll go for Oncoming Storm Expertise so that he at least has the option to go for the super-defensive fighting style in case things get ugly...


Currently he has Gloves of Dex +4, Periapt of Wis +4, a sentient +1 Wounding Dagger (with the ability to cast major image 1/day, locate object 3/day, and darkness 3/day plus being able to speak all the languages of the lower planes) which will soon be enhanced to most likely +2 or Deadly Precision, Cloak of Resistance +2, and the mentioned Quicksilver boots. I'm allowed to enchant the boots to double as boots of agile leaping as well, right?

[MammonAzrael]

How much damage do you really want to be dishing out? Are you concerned about accidentally taking out any of your players without meaning to? It may be a good idea to give the AoD a Merciful weapon, allowing him to really let loose, but not having to worry about killing anyone. (Merciful can turn Sneak Attack damage into non-lethal, since the weapon deals non-lethal, right?)

Have you thought about using Hobgoblins for your mooks? The +2 to Dex/Con fits perfectly, and a +4 to Move Silently doesn't hurt either.

And yeah, you can enchant your boots however you wish. MIC made it much less of a headache.

[NineThePuma]

From Fax's ToB Core Class Update (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update)

Rogue: Remove Trap Sense. Give Sneak Attack at every three levels (1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19) instead of every two. Give Maneuver progression and recovery as Warblade. Grant access to Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, and Desert Wind.

^^ It's not PERFECT, but it's damn good.

[Welknair]

Hmm...

As far as the merciful weapon goes, that's not an option right now. As I said, he has a sentient dagger with the previously mentioned powers. I doubt that the first order of business for an assassin would be to make it so his weapon couldn't kill. The Dagger, Voraasc, the Blade of Doom, was actually owned by one my players until just recently (Poor shop keeper. Stabbed in the face...). Anyways, that means that I need to stick with those stats for the time being, and slowly add other properties. I do want him to be using the dagger. I wonder if perhaps there's a spell for the wizards to cast that makes his damage nonlethal or I could homebrew a stance for him...

I want him to deal enough damage to be scary and be able to finish a fight rather quickly, but I can't kill any of the PCs at this point. A single full SA will be about the right amount of damage for any save for the barbarian. He'll be fun to fight. The ability to use nonlethal would be nice, however.

As for the mooks, Hobbos might work. Con for survivability and the dex and move silently bonuses are in keeping with the stealth theme.

So the AoD caste of Assassin are mostly Tieflings, with Hobbo Fighter/Rogues to do easier jobs and help with flanking. And lastly, should I go for it and make the wizards Drow?

[MammonAzrael]

Fair enough on the Merciful option. But I would think that assassins would want the ability to deal non-lethal damage more than anyone else, for abduction purposes. Though a home-brewed Stance sounds perfect, the only problem would be that he couldn't rock the non-lethal plus the Stance of Death for paralysis.

What type of HP levels is your party sitting at? I am quite sure that just a couple hits will enforce how scary the guy is. Especially if you avoid using Assassin's Stance.

I think Hobgoblins would work well for these particular mooks, and making them all the same race for ease of running them, but I don't think basing the entire guild on only 1race per caste would be the best call...at least not if you want to develop this guild more.

Perhaps the goons, which will be your Rogue and Fighter mixes are generally Humans, Hobgoblins, and a smattering of other, similar races. The spellcasters, which I'd assume would be a mix of Wizards, Sorcerers, and Beguilers, would be a mix of Human, Fire Hobgoblin, and so on.

Finally the Angels of Death can be the elite, each one unique, with a unique race that helps color their personality and their tactics in combat. Or at the least don't make every single one a Tiefling, as that would dilute the impact of your first AoD character a bit (assuming your party meets more, of course).

[Welknair]

35,32,117,and 67 for the Theurge, Wizard, Barbarian, and Swashbuckler respectively. The there's the kid wizard at 3. As for the paladin, I don't think he'll be coming back soon. (No one I play with is capable of playing a darn paladin. Somehow they all end up Chaotic Neutral).

A buff spell from the wizards to allow them to deal nonlethal would probably be ideal, second being the stance for reasons that you stated. Chances are the spell would have to be homebrew as I don't currently know of one that would accomplish the task. Transmutation, 1 minute/level, all mundane melee damage is nonlethal. Ehh. 4th level sound good? "Killer's Mercy". And of course the higher level wizards would have a mass version...


I agree with your thoughts on guild structure. Those species would be for this particular group, not necessarily for the entirety of the guild. Given that I do want this guild to have some sort of importance, variety is a good idea.

My current AoD has already been pretty well described except for his actual Maneuver and Stance choices. He focuses almost entirely in the Shadow Hand and Oncoming Storm disciplines, with a bit of Setting Sun thrown in for the... throws and a couple of Tiger Claw for the ferocious tactics (and jumping as a swift action). He uses his mooks primarily to set him up for maximum effect, and prefers those that can take a few hits (hence the fighter/rogue Hobbos). He also prefers that the spellcasters mostly limit themselves to support as not to steal his thunder.

Other AoD will have wildly different styles, groups, and tactics.

So we have a "Leader" as well as a number of these AoDs. Each AoD oversees a squad. These squad members are drawn from two further groups- the mooks that are yet to be given a squad, and individuals that have been waiting to join the guild (for various reasons which may or may not pertain to loved ones being held captive). This allows the lesser mooks to be replaced if they are to fall, though the loss of all the mooks of a group will put the group out of commission for a while as they recruit more and while the AoD is scolded and put in the time-out corner. The mooks and casters will generally be humans, hobbos, elves (*cough*Drow*cough*), and halflings. Mooks will generally be fighter, rogue, occasionally ninja, scout, spellthief, or a combination thereof. The casters will mostly be wizards with a couple sorcerers and beguilers thrown in. However the sorcerers tend to be a bit... ostentatious, while the beguilers lack the support spells many groups crave.

How does that sound for a better structure?

I need a better word for the groups. "Angel Units", could work, or each group could name themselves based off of their style...

[Runestar]

If you are worried about survivability, why not have your mooks temp hp beforehand? Endurance gives +4 con (or 16 extra hp) and amulet of tears (MIC) can grant 24-36 temp hp.

I will also caution about cranking their AC too high. If the players realise they are hard to hit, but also cannot hit for nuts, then they will likely just ignore these mooks in favour of the more dangerous (and fragile) enemies.


And lastly, should I go for it and make the wizards Drow?

Never. Drow make poor (anything), considering they are cr+1 and get -2con.

Try a race with at least a con mod like dwarf, so your spellcasters won't be as fragile. A monster with innate spellcasting can also work, such as hobgoblin warcaster (MM5).

[Welknair]

If you are worried about survivability, why not have your mooks temp hp beforehand? Endurance gives +4 con (or 16 extra hp) and amulet of tears (MIC) can grant 24-36 temp hp.

I will also caution about cranking their AC too high. If the players realise they are hard to hit, but also cannot hit for nuts, then they will likely just ignore these mooks in favour of the more dangerous (and fragile) enemies.



Never. Drow make poor (anything), considering they are cr+1 and get -2con.

Try a race with at least a con mod like dwarf, so your spellcasters won't be as fragile. A monster with innate spellcasting can also work, such as hobgoblin warcaster (MM5).

AC 18 should be hitable for them and I won't boost it higher. And yes, temp hp will be a godsend for them. Endurance for all!

And as I had mentioned, the spellcasters (of this Angel Unit, at least) often won't be participating in the battle and rather will buff the rest of the group and possibly using a few spells to prep the area.

[Runestar]

AC18 seems way too low, the cr guidelines recommends at least cr+13 AC. For your cr8 mooks, you will want at least AC22+ (+1 armour, +4dex, steel shield). Bully for you if you can squeeze in haste and protection from good. :smallamused:

[Welknair]

Well if they're hobbos that would be AC 19...

The Barbarian has an AB of +15 while the Swash has one of +12.

The mooks are supposed to have higher con and str, with only middling dex, however. And likewise they shouldn't wear heavy armor for fear of the check penalties...

I had been thinking that they would wear light armor, but I suppose it would alternatively work if they were to have a high in Dex and middling in Str (Why did I think to give them high str in the first place? They're meant to distract, not harm.) So assuming a Dex of 16 (Hmm given that that's including the Hobbo +2, not really much of a high at 8th) they'd be capable of using Breastplate while having a total Hide/Move silently of 10 and 12 respectively. That should be sufficient.

So +1 light steel shield, +1 Breastplate, +3 from dex... AC 20, not including situation bonuses such as Combat Expertise.

And technically they could have a higher Dex, they'd just be limited to much lighter armor (Dex 18 would mean a limit of Hide, unless the mooks are armed in mithral) So that's a plus one increase in Dex to AC, but a -2 to armor to AC, and is as such not worth it.

[JaronK]

Where is the Rokugan ninja? He's not in ToB or any of my other books that I know of. But otherwise, that sounds like what I want.

One of the Rokugan books. It's really only useful for dipping. Full BAB, sneak attack like a Rogue, a 4th level ability to add 5XCon Mod to run speed, and an 8th level ability to add Int to initiative. Plus a bunch of weird weapon proficiencies (some, like the Chain and the Kusari Gama, are quite nice). But that's all you get for the whole class really. Only 4+Int skills, too.

But it makes a solid 1 level dip for ninja/assassin types, since the proficiencies, sneak attack, and BAB bump are all nice.

JaronK

[true_shinken]

One of the Rokugan books.

Rokugan Campaign Setting. I actually already linked to it, since it's in a preview as well.

[Welknair]

Hmm... Interesting idea for the Angel's "Apprentice"

The AiT (Angel in Training) would be the same level as the team and thus wouldn't have to worry so much about accidentally killing them. Swordsage 5/Angel of Death 4, Human. I'm also considering making her against killing, just for the sake of novelty. Have you ever heard of an assassin that refuses to kill?

As such the current build uses the unarmed damage variant along with the Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Fighting feat to maintain decent unarmed damage. And because it's unarmed, she can make it nonlethal at no cost! However, this does mean that she must limit her choice of maneuvers, seeing you can't readily make those nonlethal... So she has a bunch of Setting Sun for counters, a bit of Tiger just for the swiftness, a dash of Desert Wind for mobility, and lastly some good old Shadow Hand. She'd be excommunicated from the guild if she couldn't even use Assassin's stance...

She can make her DA's just 1d3 hour stuns, but she doesn't have the same option for her SA, unless she uses a sap. An assassin with a sap is more piddly than an assassin that refuses to kill.

A Merciful weapon would allow me to change her back to being armed, but I don't think that applies to Strikes, let alone sneak attack. At least I don't think it would apply...

"Subduing Strike" from Book of Exalted Deeds may fit the bill. No special enhancements or class options necessary. It even makes SA nonlethal! Only question is, does it apply to strikes?

[true_shinken]

A Merciful weapon would allow me to change her back to being armed, but I don't think that applies to Strikes, let alone sneak attack. At least I don't think it would apply...

It applies.

[Seerow]

I'm also considering making her against killing, just for the sake of novelty. Have you ever heard of an assassin that refuses to kill?

You planning on throwing a wizard who refuses to cast spells at the party next?


If you make it a part of her development/training, something like she can't kill during this stage of her training, or she refuses to kill anyone until X person (her first commission) has been killed, that's one thing. But an assassin who is against killing on principle simply isn't an assassin, and has no reason to be training as one.

[Welknair]

You planning on throwing a wizard who refuses to cast spells at the party next?


If you make it a part of her development/training, something like she can't kill during this stage of her training, or she refuses to kill anyone until X person (her first commission) has been killed, that's one thing. But an assassin who is against killing on principle simply isn't an assassin, and has no reason to be training as one.

She showed potential (latently high Wis and Dex scores) and had already started as a swordsa--

Ehh. Nope.

I think you're right. So perhaps the feat is still part of the training of an Angel? Before you may take life, you must learn how to incapacitate opponents without deadly force. If you can down an enemy without dealing a point of lethal damage, that surely shows your expertise. It would also make kidnapping or other odd jobs easier to accomplish. Not everyone looking for an assassin wants someone killed. Perhaps a job calls for the kidnapping of a noble, the removal of an inside man from the Watch's headquarters in such a way that no blood is spilled so that another inside man seems to have prevented the death of the guards. The guards only remember playing poker than being unconscious.

Whatever the reason, she's being trained not to kill. Do you think it affects Maneuvers?

[Runestar]

You could say that the assassin has a rather warped concept of pride/professionalism, and will only kill people he deems as "worthy" of dying by his blade (whatever that means, you decide). But his guild tolerates him because he is just so darn good at what he does.


Whatever the reason, she's being trained not to kill. Do you think it affects Maneuvers?

I would let it apply. In game terms, it would be a good backdoor if the npc ends up overpowering the PCs. :smallsmile:

[Welknair]

I would let it apply. In game terms, it would be a good backdoor if the npc ends up overpowering the PCs. :smallsmile:
My thoughts exactly.

They'll get a few glimpses of the Storm Angel (What I'm naming the main AoD that's after them) and his squad of mooks, but there'll also be AiT who will fight them occasionally. Storm is "testing" them on behalf on some client *cough*BBEG*cough* as to ascertain their power. However, the client does not yet want them dead as they may prove of some use and they don't seem of much of a current threat. Storm proceeds to use this mission to in turn test AiT's abilities, as there hasn't been many opportunities for her to truly test her combat prowess.




You could say that the assassin has a rather warped concept of pride/professionalism, and will only kill people he deems as "worthy" of dying by his blade (whatever that means, you decide). But his guild tolerates him because he is just so darn good at what he does.
That sounds a bit like the AoD, rather than the apprentice. He'll just refuse you the honor of death, rather than going out of his way to learn techniques such that he doesn't cause lethal damage. AiT, on the other hand, is one of the only, (if not the only) member of the guild being taught these techniques. She was assigned to Storm namely because he's egotistical and hates killstealers.