Tarquin is a wuss! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

RedCloakLives!

2010-12-04, 06:05 AM

Tarquin is a wuss!

So many are fawning over him now ... but he's a total wuss!

He wins a duel? With a bard? No great feat there.

Defeats Elan in a battle of wits? Nothing to brag about there, Elan being the classic unarmed opponent!

So what have we actually seen him do?

Hit people when they're not looking. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html)

Beats women. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html) - and he can't even do it personally, he has to have his goons do it for him.

Same with slaves - and again, can't do it personally, he has to have his minions do it for him.

What a wuss. Let's see what happens when he faces some real opposition. Belkar could take him with a pebble!

:smallwink:

nac

2010-12-04, 06:10 AM

Tarquin's wussome!

nac

2010-12-04, 06:16 AM

Tarquin wouldn't be any less awesome if he lost to Roy's bitchy sister, as far as I'm concerned. I don't like him for his fighting skills.

Dr.Epic

2010-12-04, 06:23 AM

He wins a duel? With a bard? No great feat there.

No. He defeated a Dashing Swordsman (which I assume is a combat heavy PrC) who was carrying a +3 keen rapier and Tarquin beat him with a dagger. That's decent combat skills. Besides, Tarquin's awesome in that he's a criminal master mind. You wouldn't call Lex Luthor a wuss because he can't beat the man of steel in a fist fight.

tcrudisi

2010-12-04, 07:00 AM

He wins a duel? With a bard? No great feat there.

Defeats Elan in a battle of wits? Nothing to brag about there, Elan being the classic unarmed opponent!

Ummh -- I don't get it. Those don't prove he's a wuss. They don't prove he's great, but they do prove he's not a wuss.

Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. If he played me in basketball, he'd win without breaking a sweat. If you were to watch him beat me, you would say, "Well, he beat bogakbridgetaker, that's nothing to brag about." You would be correct -- but in order for him to be the best, he has to beat me.

Tarquin may indeed be the greatest swordsman ever. He beat Elan. Sure, Elan isn't the greatest himself, but Tarquin still proved he was the better.

In other words, if on a scale of 1 to 10, Elan is a 3 in swordsmanship. Tarquin proved he's somewhere between 4 and 10. Does that mean he's a 10? No. Does it mean he's a 4? No. He could be any of them. If he had lost, it would have said he was lower than a 3.

Same for beating Elan in a battle of wits... except, in that one, Elan really is awesome. His entire class is built around puns, so by beating Elan at his own game? It shows Tarquin really is awesome.

averagejoe

2010-12-04, 07:18 AM

Don't get me wrong, he's not, "Survive acid sharks and then stab a guy in the eye, resulting in serious derailment of the enemy's plans," awesome, but there is a certain magnificence to him, even if he isn't the greatest fighter (and, as has been said, we have no evidence either way). Plus he's an undeniably evil villain who still seems like a reasonable, personable guy, which is rare.

nac

2010-12-04, 07:22 AM

{scrubbed}

Damaris

2010-12-04, 07:35 AM

(Maybe he is, but I'm happy for an excuse to talk about Tarquin's awesomeness. XD )

Actually, I think that he fact that maybe he isn't personally that strong (though as it's been said, we don't really know) makes what he's achieved even more impressive.

theinsulabot

2010-12-04, 08:26 AM

{scrubbed}

King of Nowhere

2010-12-04, 09:20 AM

Tarquin is a wuss!

So many are fawning over him now ... but he's a total wuss!

He wins a duel? With a bard? No great feat there.

The bard is 15th level, give or take, with a combat oriented prc. So, still a good opponent.

Defeats Elan in a battle of wits? Nothing to brag about there, Elan being the classic unarmed opponent!

No, defeat elan in a battle of puns, which are part of his class ability.

So what have we actually seen him do?

How about starting from scratch and conquering 11 nations in 8 months? Needing 26 other countries to bring him down? Survive all that, then becoming the power behind the throne for two decades in a place were most warlords don't last a couple of years (even those who are not specifically set up by him or his teammates)?
Fooling the whole world into believing none of that is happening?

If h's not awesome, I don't know what it takes to be

3SecondCultist

2010-12-04, 10:20 AM

MY opinion is that while Tarquin might not be amazing on his own in a fight (we only know for sure that Elan took one level in DS), he is probably some sort of support class (Marshal maybe?), so that with his party, he is even more awesome.

Cizak

2010-12-04, 11:35 AM

Beats women. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html) - and he can't even do it personally, he has to have his goons do it for him.

When has he ever beaten a woman? True, he's slept with women, killed their husbands and forced them into marrying him, but when has he ever beaten a woman?

ThePhantasm

2010-12-04, 11:42 AM

Not another one! :smalleek:

M.A.D

2010-12-04, 12:07 PM

How about starting from scratch and conquering 11 nations in 8 months? Needing 26 other countries to bring him down? Survive all that, then becoming the power behind the throne for two decades in a place were most warlords don't last a couple of years (even those who are not specifically set up by him or his teammates)?
Fooling the whole world into believing none of that is happening?

If h's not awesome, I don't know what it takes to be

Also, he's currently owning half of the continent. :smallamused:

Tarquin is a wuss!

So many are fawning over him now ... but he's a total wuss!

He wins a duel? With a bard? No great feat there.

Defeats Elan in a battle of wits? Nothing to brag about there, Elan being the classic unarmed opponent!

"I know how to defend myself against any obscure combat technique"

That means he's multi-high-classed. Enough said

So what have we actually seen him do?

Hit people when they're not looking. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html)

Beats women. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html) - and he can't even do it personally, he has to have his goons do it for him.

Same with slaves - and again, can't do it personally, he has to have his minions do it for him.

What a wuss. Let's see what happens when he faces some real opposition. Belkar could take him with a pebble!

:smallwink:

Actually, if he were to do it personally, they would have all been dead. And he needed them alive, at the time.

HalfTangible

2010-12-04, 12:11 PM

To be fair, the slaves were done by someone else for logistical reasons.

TreesOfDeath

2010-12-04, 02:10 PM

The Pilgrim

2010-12-04, 04:25 PM

C'mon, Tarquin has got the nerve to be Double-Crossing a RED DRAGON.

(An idiot Red Dragon, yes, but still a Red Dragon).

And to brag about it AT THE FEET OF HER THRONE

While SHE IS STANDING AT IT.

That's some big balls on him.

(Despite being a cowardly scum who not only beats women, but has to tell his goons to do it for him).

Mr. Bean

2010-12-04, 04:57 PM

I think some of you are using a different definition of "awesome" than I'm used to. We can say he has achieved some considerable feats, but I'm not that evil to actually call it awesome. With that said, I can't call him a "wuss" either.

Gettles

2010-12-04, 05:07 PM

Ummh -- I don't get it. Those don't prove he's a wuss. They don't prove he's great, but they do prove he's not a wuss.

Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. If he played me in basketball, he'd win without breaking a sweat. If you were to watch him beat me, you would say, "Well, he beat bogakbridgetaker, that's nothing to brag about." You would be correct -- but in order for him to be the best, he has to beat me.

Tarquin may indeed be the greatest swordsman ever. He beat Elan. Sure, Elan isn't the greatest himself, but Tarquin still proved he was the better.

In other words, if on a scale of 1 to 10, Elan is a 3 in swordsmanship. Tarquin proved he's somewhere between 4 and 10. Does that mean he's a 10? No. Does it mean he's a 4? No. He could be any of them. If he had lost, it would have said he was lower than a 3.

Same for beating Elan in a battle of wits... except, in that one, Elan really is awesome. His entire class is built around puns, so by beating Elan at his own game? It shows Tarquin really is awesome.

I think this is more a response to all the "Tarquin can take Xykon!" threads that suddenly sprang up. The fact is all he has done in combat so far is bull rush Haley out a window and beat the fourth best melee fighter in the OOTS one on one. Both things that should be within the capabilities of most melee orientated characters.

To use your basketball metaphor, its like seeing someone beat Brian Scalabrine one on one and immediately saying that they could be Shaq in his prime.

As a side note, if I was going to compare Xykon to any professional basketball player, it would be Shaq.

RedCloakLives!

2010-12-06, 06:45 AM

How about starting from scratch and conquering 11 nations in 8 months?

On the Western Continent, that's nothing. A zillion kingdoms, each with a king-of-the-month. And he couldn't even hang on to that; he got run out of town.

And he couldn't even run out of town on his own, he had to have Nale helping him! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)

The Western Continent - someone with real organizational ability would have done far better. Roy would have done 22 in 6! Red Cloak would have taken the whole continent! And the outlying islands!

Tarquin the Wuss!

:smallwink:

RedCloakLives!

2010-12-06, 06:49 AM

When has he ever beaten a woman?

Since when is Haley not a woman? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html)

What do you think she is, chopped liver? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html)

Haley fans everywhere are outraged!

:smallwink:

RedCloakLives!

2010-12-06, 06:52 AM

I'd liek to see you keep constant control of a conteinent, without anyone knowing, by having your enemies play against patsys, then when someone capable of threatining the world appears, just get someone else to fix it

Classic middle-manager wuss. He'll never make it above middle-management. Can't do it on his own! He's turned himself into a serial servant, and convinced himself that he likes it!

Tarquin "Middle-management" Wuss!

:smallwink:

RedCloakLives!

2010-12-06, 06:56 AM

tcrudisi

2010-12-06, 07:06 AM

I think this is more a response to all the "Tarquin can take Xykon!" threads that suddenly sprang up. The fact is all he has done in combat so far is bull rush Haley out a window and beat the fourth best melee fighter in the OOTS one on one. Both things that should be within the capabilities of most melee orientated characters.

I must have missed all those threads somehow. Or I saw them and promptly ignored them. I am fairly selective in the threads I even bother opening up.

Regardless, what he has done is successfully defeat Elan, a fairly competent swordsman, in a swordfight. That doesn't mean he's great, but it does mean that he's at least pretty good. However, the only way it limits him is by saying that he's not bad. That means the range of his skills is anywhere from "pretty good" to "the best of all time."

Also, defeating a level 13+ Bard + at least one level in a melee-oriented PrC is not within the capabilities of "most" melee-oriented characters. "Most" characters are not that high level.

Finally, he defeated Elan in a battle of puns, which is an area that Elan decided to specialize in. That's impressive.

That's enough to prove that Tarquin isn't a wuss. He could be the greatest of all time, though yeah, that's unlikely.

Cizak

2010-12-06, 10:21 AM

Since when is Haley not a woman? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html)

What do you think she is, chopped liver? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html)

Haley fans everywhere are outraged!

:smallwink:

Fine, he's beaten Haley. Although the OP's link to that argument does not show him beating a woman.

(Also, edit your posts instead of posting three times in a row, people aren't too happy about that around here.)

Niveus Candidus

2010-12-06, 01:53 PM

That defeating Elan is not a good indication of power was stated multiple times since Tarquin won their duel. This was my response then, and it stands until we see otherwise:

Re: The fight itself

1. He did not win a melee battle, he won a pun duel. An obscure form of combat that is not his typical method.

Re: The fighter he defeated

2. The combat-oriented class allows Elan to substitute his charisma score for his strength score, and presumably has fighter-BAB. If it does half of what we know of it, it effectively will reverse engineer a bard into something beefy. Not sublime chord good, but if built into with the right feats it could be quite the gish.

Re: What this victory indicates

It would be more like my 17th level character challenging a 13th level character to precisely what he is good at, and whipping him at it with no visible form of magical aide. And by like, I mean that is exactly what just happened.

Further information: Imagine your character, whatever he or she may be, encountering another PC, one who specializes in something but is likely lower level. Now mentally construct a situation sans prep time wherein your PC hits a higher diplomacy check than the Evangelist, making a smoother balance check than an Exemplar or out-running an Ex-Barbarian/Monk without ripping a scroll or casting a buff-spell. Straight wins against specialist PCs are impressive in D&D, to say nothing of skills and techniques you cannot succeed upon without a feat, skill rank or class ability.

Re: His magical item inventory and how much power he gains from them

"In fact, I have a few duplicate magic items that may really help you."

Can he solo the 28+ HD Lich? That we do not know, and in works of fiction the "Will he" is always more important than the "Can he." Still, every indication with have points out that Tarquin is no wuss.

paladinofshojo

2010-12-06, 02:11 PM

Me thinks this thread be an act of trolling.........:smallsigh:

littlekKID

2010-12-06, 02:14 PM

Me thinks this thread be an act of trolling.........:smallsigh:

me agree :smallannoyed:

Lateral

2010-12-06, 05:38 PM

Methinks that, while the blatant reversal of the 'Tarquin v. Xykon' threads smacks of trollism, the lighthearted attitude and liberal sprinkling of :smallwink: indicates that it wasn't intended to spark flames.

King of Nowhere

2010-12-06, 06:02 PM

I think this is more a response to all the "Tarquin can take Xykon!" threads that suddenly sprang up.

Well, as far as I know the general consensus in those threads is that Tarquin cannot defeat Xykon in a straigth figth, even if he could probably give Xykon hard times if he could prepare and plan. Common speculation puts him at an unknown level ranging from 17ish to epic.

Both speculations seems ompletely reasonable to me.

Thrawn183

2010-12-06, 06:14 PM

As a side note, if I was going to compare Xykon to any professional basketball player, it would be Shaq.

All it took to beat shaq was a referee actually willing to call him on charging. On the opposite side, all you had to do was foul him every possession and he was worthless.

cho_j

2010-12-07, 08:05 PM

As a side note, if I was going to compare Xykon to any professional basketball player, it would be Shaq.

This quote is one of the best things I never expected to read.

On the ACTUAL topic at hand: I find the OP's evidence of Tarquin's wussiness to be more proof of his being able to accomplish low-difficulty level tasks as well as delegate. These abilities are NOT equatable to wussiness.

Think of it this way: just because the love child of O-Chul and Chuck Norris would probably most definitely be able to explode the universe at will, that doesn't mean said child could not also brush their teeth or have an underling take care of something they don't care to take care of themselves. It's not that being able to do something simple makes you less of a badass, it's that NOT being able to do something bad ass makes you more of a wuss.

Additionally, in response to the claim that he can't beat women himself: alternatively, his friend the magic-user had the skills necessary to torture the one woman we saw being tortured in a particular manner. PLUS, it physically hurts me that on the forums for this comic, someone thinks that the fact that she's a woman (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0587.html)has anything to do (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0590.html) with his being able (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html) to hurt her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html).

Lateral

2010-12-07, 09:11 PM

cho_j

2010-12-08, 03:16 PM

That last link had nothing to do with physical pain, and I don't think the point here is 'Rich wouldn't draw a woman being hurt'. I think it's more like 'Tarquin is such a magnificent bastard that hitting a girl would be beneath him'.

Yeah, I know it had nothing to do with physical pain, nor did I mean that Rich wouldn't draw a woman being hurt. Since, he has, a lot. My point was that OotS is a feminist work, in that Rich treats his female characters as equal to their male counterparts in every way, from ass-kicking to amount of punchlines to importance in the story. The last link was mostly about Roy's quote that, while a woman, "I wasn't any weaker or anything. I did have trouble keeping my emotions under control, but I think that was because I'm not used to the hormones," which nicely demonstrates the comic's feminism.

So because of that, it bothered me that someone was implying that Tarquin's failing to beat a woman in particular was a sign of wussiness. I mean, he also took on Enor and Gannji through his minions in the legal system rather than pummeling them with his bare fists, but that wasn't brought up, even though it's pretty much the same as his having his friend the wizard torture his soon-to-be-ex-wife. I know that RedCloakLives! probably didn't mean for that to come out sexist, and some people are probably gonna roll their eyes that I even brought it up, but... it's dang hard to find any media that's not either subtly or bluntly misogynistic, so it gets under my skin when on the forums for one of those rare feminist comics somebody makes a remark that, accidentally or not, comes off as sexist.

Lateral

2010-12-08, 05:23 PM

So because of that, it bothered me that someone was implying that Tarquin's failing to beat a woman in particular was a sign of wussiness. I mean, he also took on Enor and Gannji through his minions in the legal system rather than pummeling them with his bare fists, but that wasn't brought up, even though it's pretty much the same as his having his friend the wizard torture his soon-to-be-ex-wife.

I doubt that that's why he didn't mention Enor and Gannji. The two examples are different enough that I wouldn't have mentioned them either, simply because he never actually knew Gannji or Enor. They were just bounty hunters out to get their bounty... nothing personal, you know? Whereas the other one was him beating on a close associate- and not even deigning to do it himself. The same reaction would have happened if he had been shown having someone torture, say, his brother. It wasn't gender-related in any way. Also, G+E's thing happened weeks ago. This is recent, so it's the most natural example.

Besides, I doubt that Rich wouldn't make an evil guy who balks at hurting women. It's genre-appropriate, and just because someone treats other people equally doesn't mean they have to stick to a politically-correct plot. Tarquin strikes me as the gender-savvy type who avoids clichés such as that which don't help his image in stories (he is going for 'villain of legend', after all) while cultivating a reputation for magnificent bastardy.

ShiningStarling

2010-12-08, 06:10 PM

Tarquin has:
1) An empire building scheme to make Xanatos (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) cry for his mommy
2) Beaten a punster at his own game no less than 9 times, with a dagger, without a scratch in a sword fight, without even having to kill his opponent to get him to stop swinging.
3) Escaped an angry village, with a baby, relatively intact.
4) Openly stated 20 ft. away from a live red dragon what a tool she was.
5) An adventuring party, willing to help him, so powerful that they decided to do something on a larger scale than almost any party would do, and possesses enough power that they can do it with a split-into-3 party (which, as you may remember did not work out for the OotS in only 2 groups)

I'd say that's pretty frickin' awesome.

M.A.D

2010-12-08, 06:37 PM

cho_j

2010-12-09, 01:14 AM

I doubt that that's why he didn't mention Enor and Gannji. The two examples are different enough that I wouldn't have mentioned them either, simply because he never actually knew Gannji or Enor. They were just bounty hunters out to get their bounty... nothing personal, you know? Whereas the other one was him beating on a close associate- and not even deigning to do it himself. The same reaction would have happened if he had been shown having someone torture, say, his brother. It wasn't gender-related in any way. Also, G+E's thing happened weeks ago. This is recent, so it's the most natural example.

Besides, I doubt that Rich wouldn't make an evil guy who balks at hurting women. It's genre-appropriate, and just because someone treats other people equally doesn't mean they have to stick to a politically-correct plot. Tarquin strikes me as the gender-savvy type who avoids clichés such as that which don't help his image in stories (he is going for 'villain of legend', after all) while cultivating a reputation for magnificent bastardy.

Those are very valid points. I guess it was just the phrasing ("beats women— and can't even do it personally") that really threw me. If it had been WON'T even do it personally, now, that wouldn't have been a big deal. It's the can't, which ties in the whole post's assertion that Tarquin is a wuss, which set my teeth to grinding, even knowing it wasn't meant as a sexist remark. The use of can't makes it sound like anyone who isn't a wuss is totally capable of beating up a girl.

And I know there's likely to be sexism coming FROM characters— we've actually seen quite a bit of that, even within the Order itself. My objection was not to what Tarquin did but how a poster in the real world was describing it.

Rob Roy

2010-12-09, 01:40 AM

Since when is Haley not a woman? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html)

What do you think she is, chopped liver? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html)

Haley fans everywhere are outraged!

:smallwink:
She's also a high level adventurer that can stand her own in a fight.
In other link about this, she attacked first. What was he supposed to do, get stabbed a few more times? This smells like some type of lighthearted troll, or at least as lighthearted as a troll can be.

3SecondCultist

2010-12-10, 12:05 PM

She's also a high level adventurer that can stand her own in a fight.
In other link about this, she attacked first. What was he supposed to do, get stabbed a few more times? This smells like some type of lighthearted troll, or at least as lighthearted as a troll can be.

Agreed. Tarquin did not intend to hit her, it was just a byproduct of mutual violence. :smallbiggrin:

Half-Orc Rage

2010-12-10, 04:14 PM

I think Tarquin would have had to get through a lot worse than Elan or Haley when he was, you know, putting together an elaborate plan where he and his friends run an entire continent from behind the thrones! If running a damn continent in a D&D version of the "Illuminati" doesn't show you've got balls, I don't know what does.

Burner28

2010-12-11, 03:08 PM

Beats women. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html) - and he can't even do it personally, he has to have his goons do it for him.

Emm... Beating up people in general is pretty terrible, but I really don't think gender would make any difference really:smallannoyed:at least in this univesre when it comes to that matter, really. Also, how is OotS a feminist work just because the women are treated as equally as men

Prospekt

2010-12-11, 04:00 PM

Me thinks this thread be an act of trolling.........:smallsigh:

Why, because he has this own opinion? I've been known to criticize the heck out of what's rated as the best game ever, but no one I know thinks of it as trolling. I don't think he's intentionally trying to tick people off, he's just laying it down as he sees it.

Personally, I don't think Tarquin is that Godly merely because all I've seen him do is dodge some sword slashes (that were probably awful in the first place) and take on Elan, who is a decent swordfighter, but is definitely no Roy. Sure, he has the armor and magic items, but I really want to judge once I've seen more of his combat. He's an epic character in terms of non-combat situations, regardless.

On a side note: So Xykon's free-throws are awful? :smalltongue:

Sholos

2010-12-11, 05:06 PM

Emm... Beating up people in general is pretty terrible, but I really don't think gender would make any difference really:smallannoyed:at least in this univesre when it comes to that matter, really. Also, how is OotS a feminist work just because the women are treated as equally as men

Agreed. I have to wonder how the term 'feminist' came to equal 'not sexist'. The term specifically indicates that it's oriented towards females, not both sexes.

137beth

2010-12-11, 08:12 PM

No. He defeated a Dashing Swordsman (which I assume is a combat heavy PrC) who was carrying a +3 keen rapier and Tarquin beat him with a dagger. That's decent combat skills. Besides, Tarquin's awesome in that he's a criminal master mind. You wouldn't call Lex Luthor a wuss because he can't beat the man of steel in a fist fight.

A majority of Elan's levels are still in Bard. Still, Tarquin IS quite powerful outside of direct combat. He controls an empire, and has to backstab people regularly to do it. That is not being a wuss.

cho_j

2010-12-11, 09:56 PM

Agreed. I have to wonder how the term 'feminist' came to equal 'not sexist'. The term specifically indicates that it's oriented towards females, not both sexes.

Well, since feminism means "the belief that men and women, as equals, should have entirely equal rights," it DOES mean non-sexist. The problem is that a lot of people think that "sexist" means "misogynistic" or "male chauvinistic," which mean, respectively, "hatred/dislike/fear towards women" and "smug irrational belief in the superiority of men" (paraphrased from www.dictionary.com). (Please also note that chauvinism on its own does NOT mean the same thing as male chauvinism, but has acquired that connotation in some parts of modern society.)

So, if you believe women are better than men, you are every bit as sexist as someone who thinks men are better than women. Sexist just means "prejudiced against one sex."

Now, why do we call the belief in gender equality feminism? Because when the term was invented, it was women who had less rights than men and who were considered the inferior sex. So, "feminism" is a word designed to explain that it has to do with the rights of women, which used to be instinctively understood as less than those of men.

Hence, OotS is a feminist work because it promotes neither sex above the other. If it did promote women above men, it would be a sexist work, just not a misogynistic one. PLEASE NOTE: a feminist work doesn't mean that every line of every comic, or even most lines, are dripping with gender equality agenda. It does NOT mean that Haley and the other female characters are walking around making impassioned speeches about how oppressed they are and how that's terrible, or conversely, that everyone is making speeches about how great it is that in the world of the work, there is no sexism. That's just called a bad story. A feminist work, the way I use it, just means a work that isn't sexist, a work where no gender is promoted above the other.

Whew! I hope that was enough of a clarification that we can go back to debating Tarquin's possible levels of wussiness.