(3.5)Warmage fix-add summons?

[Ilmryn]

Isn't what the warmage really needs some summoning? What would adding summon monster I-IX and making conjuration an option for advanced learning to to te warmage's power? Would it bring it up to the same level as the beguiler?

[HunterOfJello]

Arcane Disciple (Summoning Domain) would put Summon Monster I, II, III, V, and VII on their list along with Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally, Greater Planar Ally and Gate.


Conjuration spells would help them signifigantly.

[Augmented Lurk]

Why mess with the Warmage? It's actually a pretty balanced class. Just because it isn't super game breaking doesn't mean it needs to be fixed.

[Khatoblepas]

Why mess with the Warmage? It's actually a pretty balanced class. Just because it isn't super game breaking doesn't mean it needs to be fixed.

According to the Tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0), Warmages are Tier 4, on par with Fighters et al, and Beguilers are Tier 3, which is considered by many to be the sweet spot for class balance. Not game breaking, and not useless in many circumstances.

He wants to mess with the Warmage so it's balanced with the Beguiler, and not the Fighter.

I think giving them the Summon Monster line would be pretty good for making them Tier 3. Adding Conjuration to the advanced learning might be the icing on the cake, as I think Beguilers get Enchantment/Illusion? And Warmages only get Evocation. I'm wary about giving them the Planar Ally/Binding series, as that might push them into Tier 2 territory. If only the Healer had Magic Circle Against Evil on their list (in fact, giving the Healer spontaineous list casting, some abjuration spells, and advanced learning might push THEM up to Tier 3, too...). Giving the Warmage Planar Binding and the Healer MCaE would mean you'd need two guys to call up another being, as it should be.

[Thurbane]

The various bloodline feats in the Dragon Magazine Compendium can help a Warmage with versatility. They add 1 extra spell/known (from a set list) from spell levels 1 though 9.

[Urpriest]

Doesn't the Binder go up to Tier 2 with access to the Summon Monster Line via online vestiges though? Or is that partly because it has unlimited summoning? Does anything Tier 3 and below get the full Summon Monster/Nature's Ally series?

[Grynning]

Automatically getting the summon monster line is potentially adding a little too much strength. Summons are pretty much the best "swiss-army knife" spells that can solve a lot of problems with just one casting.

Adding conjuration to advanced learning though, would be fine. I've always kinda thought that the Beguiler (enchantment/illusion), Warmage (evocation/conjuration), and Dread Necromancer (necromancy/transmutation) should all be pretty similar to each other, representing what Wizard specialists were meant to in the PHB. Even reducing them down to one class that just chose which area they pulled their spells from would work, using the beguiler as the baseline.

[Psyren]

Another reason warmages are weaker than beguilers is that they are prepared and beguilers are spontaneous. Normally prepared casters have the edge, but that only applies if they also have a large number of spells known to draw from. With such a limited list AND the need to predict spells in advance, they fall further behind.

My mistake, I misread the following line:


Warmages do not need to study spellbooks, but they do need to prepare their spells each day by spending time to call up the knowledge from their unconscious minds.

Eh, put my foot in it that time :smalltongue:

[Seerow]

Another reason warmages are weaker than beguilers is that they are prepared and beguilers are spontaneous. Normally prepared casters have the edge, but that only applies if they also have a large number of spells known to draw from. With such a limited list AND the need to predict spells in advance, they fall further behind.

What? Since when are warmages prep casters?

[Grynning]

Another reason warmages are weaker than beguilers is that they are prepared and beguilers are spontaneous. Normally prepared casters have the edge, but that only applies if they also have a large number of spells known to draw from. With such a limited list AND the need to predict spells in advance, they fall further behind.

Warmages can cast any spell on their list spontaneously. It's just that their list is considered very weak.

[gbprime]

You can also advance the warmage in Wild Soul. That gives them a form of summoning plus 9 other spells.

Personally, I like using eclectic learning to pick up Message as a 0 level spell, which is the major qualification to picking up Dracolexi. Though they don't make a lot of use out of free extend spell, the bonus spells they get are nice, as is the ability to heal and give out temp HP in a pinch, and the capstone of free Empower on every fire spell is happy. Just add Searing Spell or a dip in Sanctified One of Kord and you're golden!

[Psyren]

What? Since when are warmages prep casters?


Warmages can cast any spell on their list spontaneously. It's just that their list is considered very weak.

Please see my edit

[Fizban]

I think a couple obvious combat buffs like Haste would do the trick just fine. Warmage has got Pyrotechnics (and underrated super-fog), Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, and Acid Fog. If we count the tentacles as equivalent to the Beguiler's Solid Fog, they just need something at third to match, so Haste would be an offensive always-useful answer. Freezing Fog would also be appropriate.

I'd definitely agree with adding conjuration to the allowed spells for Advanced Learning, so they can pick up the better fogs. After that, either add on a couple spells (like free Solid or Freezing Fog and definitely Haste), or alternatively give them the basic summon monster line. I would not give them both free summoning and Haste. Both the Beguiler and Warmage lists seem to peter out a bit at the top levels, running into spells that are just higher level versions of what they're already casting, so I wouldn't add anything for free past 5th level.

Another fix could be done with the spells themselves. When you look at damage spells, 1-2 level spells deal 1 die/2 levels, and 3-4 deal 1 die/level, but that's where it stops, since basically all spells only deal 1 die/level from there on through 9th. An empowered 3rd level spell keeps following the formula, but you're still stuck with a lower DC. Change pure damage spells of higher levels: 4-5 deals 3 dice/2 levels, 7-8 deal 2 dice/level, and 9th deals 5 dice/ 2 levels (but usually is just save or die). Spells that deal 1 die/level get increasingly painful lockdown effects on a failed save, like blindness, stunning, and dazing (look to spells like Lucent Lance and Radiant Assault), culminating in 9th level spells that are die or take 1d6/level. This is really the only way to make high level Warmages better without giving them more spells, unless you give them a lot of metamagic reducers or a lot more sudden metamagic.

Why would you do this? Because monsters increase in hit dice and constitution scores far faster than PCs increase in caster level and int scores. Note that the most popular blasting spells follow these rules: the only one I hear about that doesn't have a carrier effect is Moonbow, which effectively deals 3d6/2 levels. Spells I don't hear about as often but would also accept are Ball Lightning (1d6/level per round, ref negates), and a continuous fireball from some book I can't remember (1d6/level for 3 rounds, ref half).

Also, you know what I just noticed? Warmages get Ice Storm as a 3rd level spell. This means that everything that uses Ice Storm gets to be lower priced. And since I've been thinking about ice mages, I totally want a guy extending an Ice Storm for a 4th level slot 10d6 damage no save.

[Psyren]

Exalted Arcanist or Sandshaper would shore up their spell list nicely. The former can also get them into Thaumaturgist for a planar cohort.

[faceroll]

Warmages have an awful spell list and no class features to speak of. They have pretty decent level 1-4 spells, but then their 5-9s are all repeats of lower level spells with higher damage caps.

I would replace warmage edge with the Dragonlance's War Mage ability where they get +1 damage/die. So a 10d6 fireball does 10d6+10 damage. Have that go up by +1 every 5 levels. So at level 20, a cone of cold does 25d6+100 damage. That is *about* on par with some maneuvers.

I would also allow them more uses of sudden metamagic and summoning spells, and double the rate they get advanced learning.

[Pechvarry]

For a decent start, I like...

Advanced Learning changed to levels 3 and every 3rd thereafter. Add stipulation that in addition to evocations, add spells from any other school as long as it deals damage.

Change the sudden stuff to simply be: At 4th and every 3 levels therafter, you gain a sudden metamagic feat.

Finally, find a couple dead levels (Probably 5th and 11th) to add Warmage Edge value to overcoming Energy Resist (so if you have +4 INT bonus, Fire resistance is treated as 4 lower) and then also to checks to overcome SR.

These changes probably don't even move Warmage out of tier 4, but it's my opinion that tier 4s can still be powerful and quite fun.

Oh, and I'd add a few support spells like Assay Resistance to their list by default.

[T.G. Oskar]

I've read this quite a bit and each time I read a new post, I hear mostly the same: add new spells, strengthen stuff a bit, add new class features.

Now, usually I don't like to do shameless self-promotion of my stuff, but given what I've heard, I wish to place a retooling of the Warmage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131346) under your consideration. You don't have to use it on its entirety, but I find that most of that stuff is something that I have considered, and that if I were to mention it, I would undoubtedly have to post it. At least, consider if the changes made work or not with the suggested fixes.

Reason I do this is because I was hoping someone else mentioned it (again, don't like to just hammer things in and say "use this instead"), but I find it's the simplest way to organize what I considered for the Warmage and whether it would be effective. Jury's still out on the Warmage Edge power-up, but if not agreeing with that at least consider the rest.

I believe there's also another homebrew that provides a different take on the Warmage (more of a Eldritch Knight/Spellsword), but right now I don't recall who did it (my guess is Lord Gareth, but that may not be the case; whomever did it, please report and provide the other link).


If only the Healer had Magic Circle Against Evil on their list (in fact, giving the Healer spontaineous list casting, some abjuration spells, and advanced learning might push THEM up to Tier 3, too...). Giving the Warmage Planar Binding and the Healer MCaE would mean you'd need two guys to call up another being, as it should be.

Lawl, I also considered that. But I won't be posting links at random in that case (again, don't want to do shameless self-promotion, so linking the concept of the OP's query should be enough). I don't think I considered MCaE, though.

[faceroll]

Oskar, I looked at your Warmage, and I like it. Will be using it when I DM.

[Azernak0]

What about letting them access the Sorcerer only spells like Wings of Flurry? It keeps them a little more blasty rather than making them Summoners.

[Fizban]

I would replace warmage edge with the Dragonlance's War Mage ability where they get +1 damage/die. So a 10d6 fireball does 10d6+10 damage. Have that go up by +1 every 5 levels. So at level 20, a cone of cold does 25d6+100 damage. That is *about* on par with some maneuvers.

You do realize that ability is both limited uses per day (check the errata), and is already stupid good? Then again, my method increased 9th level spells by the same amount (5.25 per CL more on average). So, I guess if you only want Warmages to be able to blast, this would work.

Oh, and Cone of Cold caps at 15d6.

T.G. Oskar's retooled Warmage is certainly an improvement, but I think it might be too awesome. The whole point of the focused casters is that they can't do everything, while this spell list has added several of the best control and buff spells. It means that the Warmage has a list that can compare to a wizard, but that kindof defeats the point. Yes, you need a lot of different things to win a war, but having all of those at once is what makes the Wizard crazy in the first place. I'm not sure if it needs all the bonus metamagic feats when it gets damage cap increases and eventually Metamagic Edge (which is pretty cool), since those do what people normally use metamagic for anyway. Finally, since you're allowing a spontaneous caster new spells at odd levels, sorcerers are as usual screwed in the comparison, so it could use a note that other spontaneous casters should be tweaked as well.

In sum, I think it's better than any other spontaneous caster, and while this may be necessary to compete with obscene Wizards, it feels like a slap in the face to Sorcerers. We demand satisfaction!

[T.G. Oskar]

T.G. Oskar's retooled Warmage is certainly an improvement, but I think it might be too awesome. The whole point of the focused casters is that they can't do everything, while this spell list has added several of the best control and buff spells. It means that the Warmage has a list that can compare to a wizard, but that kindof defeats the point. Yes, you need a lot of different things to win a war, but having all of those at once is what makes the Wizard crazy in the first place. I'm not sure if it needs all the bonus metamagic feats when it gets damage cap increases and eventually Metamagic Edge (which is pretty cool), since those do what people normally use metamagic for anyway. Finally, since you're allowing a spontaneous caster new spells at odd levels, sorcerers are as usual screwed in the comparison, so it could use a note that other spontaneous casters should be tweaked as well.

In sum, I think it's better than any other spontaneous caster, and while this may be necessary to compete with obscene Wizards, it feels like a slap in the face to Sorcerers. We demand satisfaction!

I mentioned pretty clearly that the paradigm I tried to follow was that spontaneous spellcasters would get spells at odd levels and prepared spellcasters (Clerics, Druids, Wizards) would get spells at even levels. So yeah: consider that, if I were to retool the Sorcerer, it would be gaining spells at odd levels, and if I were to nerf the Wizzie, I'd make it progress at even levels (with its first 2nd level spells at 4th level). However, the amount of spells would remain the same: a Sorcerer would get three 2nd level spells at 3rd level, while a Wizard would get one 2nd level spell at 4th level. Oh, and Wizzies would get one less 9th level spell, while Sorcerers would get a much more reasonable progression.

I mean, I actually mentioned that on the spoilers, that the switched progression (while retaining amount of spells per day) would be what I'd focus from then on (at least for full spellcasters). The train of reason implies that Sorcerers get their spells earlier because their awakening to magic is sudden, spontaneous and usually flashy, while Wizards take their time to pour upon musty tomes to reach that enlightenment, and while they have a much better casting method (perhaps way too good), their method requires time to learn; thus, while a 20th level wizard would still be just as powerful, a 20th level sorcerer would be more powerful faster at all levels.

So yeah, I thought on the Sorcerer, and the Favored Sould, and the Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necro. Heck, I thought of that on the healer, which isn't naturally a spontaneous spellcaster but it really should.

Second: Sorcerers are usually better than Warmages, even in the Warmage's actual specialization, because the amount of spells it can learn (and use through wands, scrolls or staffs) is superior, because it can learn unique spells not even the Wizard can cast (including Wings of Flurry, Arcane Fusion [and Greater] and Arcane Spellsurge). It's just that the method of play of Sorcerers is strikingly different from that of Wizards, in that it's best to find spells of varied utility rather than spells that are situational. The Warmage's list really required a boost in spells, because what it had wasn't enough. And it's not even a fraction of the list of spells a Wizard OR Sorcerer can cast, including gems that the Sorcerer can cast several times. I mostly focused myself on the Beguiler, which has some similar spells yet it's supposed to be focused on enchantments and illusions. Note that it lacks most (if not all) Illusion spells, which are usually staples of spellcasters (including Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, Blur, Displacement, Mirror Image, all [X] Image spells, Color Spray...). However, it has spells that really needed to be on the list that otherwise wouldn't have appeared. You might be shocked to see Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud and Web in the same place, but of course, each has its reasons (and all of them are either Conjuration or Transmutation, but the focus still remains on Evocation and those spells don't take advantage of Warmage Edge). And it also has some superb buffing spells; not all (see Superior Resistance?) but quite a lot (Greater Mage Armor, Greater Magic Weapon...you know, spells that would benefit a party and would make the Warmage less of a niche caster and more of a mage you'd like on war?).

It's not that it's better than other spontaneous spellcasters; it's that I haven't dealt with other spontaneous spellcasters (yet). Furthermore; the Warmage spell list, spells known and class ability progression conform a chassis, something akin to a template from which I can modify other full spontaneous spellcasters. You can, if you desire, take the Warmage chassis, strip it of stuff you consider non-Sorcerer-like, give it the Sorcerer spell list, and you could get the basis for a better Sorcerer. Give it stuff like Eschew Materials at 1st level, then probably Automatic Silent or Automatic Still somewhere after 10th level (so that it becomes a class ability that would make you think twice about changing class)...modify it. That's as much satisfaction I can deliver, if only because going with Sorcerer implies also going with Favored Soul, and Favored Soul is even harder to balance out compared to a Cleric (and giving them Turn Undead would be just too good, since it would pretty much open DM Persist/Quicken to the FvS).

Oh, and feats don't have to be metamagic-inclined. There's reserve feats, and there's a small list in case you find there's no need for metamagic feats on your list. If it manages to compete with the Wizard, great; that's something I was looking at, since I wasn't really measuring which Tier I wanted to take the class but just how much I could push the Warmage until it became "useful". If I just added minor stuff, it would still be pushed out; I dunno if I should feel overjoyed to hear it can compete with the Wizard of all classes (though, IMO, a Sorcerer can do much, much more in terms of utility than a Warmage will, barring Rainbow Warsnake).