Thoughts on a Modified Tippyverse, Can Psionics Plausibly Replace Casting?

[Urpriest]

I've been putting together a rather odd setting recently. I'm not going to state the original inspiration for it here (as I may end up running it as a PbP), but the way it's shaping up now it's going to be some mix of D&D 3.5 and d20 Future. The idea is that in the far future of the D&D multiverse magic becomes advanced enough to allow for a Tippyverse-like situation, which in turn empowers people to advance technologically. Now a primarily human interstellar empire expands from galaxy to galaxy, where they make contact with a mysterious warlike race with great psionic power.

Since (IMO), Psionics is more Sci-Fi-themed than traditional Magic, I'd like the setting to be pretty much entirely psionic in character, with traditional spellcasting very rare and generally considered archaic and fetishistic. However, I'd like this to be plausible. Since this setting grew out of a semi-Tippyverse, people are relatively pragmatic. They won't abandon spellcasting simply because it's "not scientific". So this brings up my primary question in this thread:

What can casters do that psionics can't? Some factors to consider:

1. In this far future the great wheel dwindled as the mortal races ceased to believe in its founding principles. It finally disintegrated when the Lady of Pain was unwillingly turned into a deity, as Sigil's collapse shook the multiverse to flinders. Now the Lady's Laws (which will be various requirements on fundamental physics, like translation invariance and unitarity) are the only deific power in the universe, and the only outsiders are those from the Far Realm and the transitive planes (possibly including Quori from the plane of dreams). What that means is that summoning/calling, pretty much an exclusive spellcaster shtick, is now substantially less powerful.

2. Some of the obvious things will be houseruled away. The Genesis spell will have the same limits as the Genesis power, for example. More examples here would be nice.

3. Essentially, I'm looking for what to do in order to make psionics an attractive enough option that people will believably abandon magic. Including the Spell-to-Power Erudite is a last resort that I'd rather not go to: I'd rather get rid of the flavor of the spells, not simply the mechanics of casting them. Still, it remains a conceivable option.

The other matter I'm considering is how to keep the Tippyverse from being an Orwellian nightmare. I'm ok with easy access to food, water, and education, not to mention magical power. I'm not ok with the "everyone is good or else" angle. My understanding, though, is that this partly is a result of diplomancy: a Tippy-wizard will hire enough diplomancers to keep the populace converted, and thus maintain "happiness". So what happens when we get rid of diplomancy? If diplomacy is limited to things real-world people could do/have done, can a Tippy-Wizard still effectively rule the world? I don't mean defeat any leader he happens to meet, I mean actually rule the world. How fragile is a Tippyverse, in short?

[Mikeavelli]

I honestly just don't know psionics well enough to give you any good advice on using it to replace normal spellcasting, except to say that it's tremendously lacking in versatility compared to spellcasting. Psionicists get fewer powers overall compared to wizards, can't change them around at will, and have fewer powers overall to choose from.

to have it supplant magic, you'd need to do a whole lot more than just tweak a few things, magical and clerical spellcasting would need to be ripped apart.




The other matter I'm considering is how to keep the Tippyverse from being an Orwellian nightmare. I'm ok with easy access to food, water, and education, not to mention magical power. I'm not ok with the "everyone is good or else" angle. My understanding, though, is that this partly is a result of diplomancy: a Tippy-wizard will hire enough diplomancers to keep the populace converted, and thus maintain "happiness". So what happens when we get rid of diplomancy? If diplomacy is limited to things real-world people could do/have done, can a Tippy-Wizard still effectively rule the world? I don't mean defeat any leader he happens to meet, I mean actually rule the world. How fragile is a Tippyverse, in short?


A lot of people disagree with me on this one, but I'm under the impression the Tippyverse is actually pretty fragile, and has no need of turning into a dystopian state at all!

1. The primary reason for most dystopian states to exist in the first place is because the people in charge want to stay in power. They're on top only because of their existing political power, and if the people ever figured out how bad it really was, they could collectively rise up and topple the dictator fairly easy.

In D&D, Emperor Tippy's political power is secondary, and more or less irrelevant compared to his magical power. He can govern however well he wants, and he'll still be the most powerful being in the world, because he's an epic level wizard who can just say, "Screw you guys, I'm going to my private demi-plane."

2. Assume we have an Emperor Tippy who DOES have dystopian policies. No matter how evil or powerful the Empire, D&D worlds are filled to the brim with roving gangs of violent hobos whose only purpose in life is to depose tyrants.

People will disagree on how possible it actually is to kill a sufficiently paranoid wizard, but with a sufficent mass of high-level hobos, it's definitely possible to ensure the wizard-tyrant is hiding in his demi-plane for the rest of his existence as a paranoid gibbering wreck. If those high-level hobos happen to have wizardly or clerical magic of their own, the tyrant is pretty well done for.

[Urpriest]

In terms of versatility, Erudites have the same unrestricted spell learning as the wizard (for powers not spells obviously, barring the spell-to-power variant). While they nominally have less versatility on a per-day basis, I'm less concerned with their viability as four-encounter-per-day adventurers and more concerned with their ability to be movers and shakers in a world.

As I understand it, the Tippy-wizard not only is able to fight off fellow violent omnipotent hobos, he is able to make the world such that people with those intentions never arise, primarily via diplomancy. I'm concerned with whether those tactics specifically can exist in a non-diplomancy ruleset. Once you have lots of rival adventurers, then as you say Tippy is comparative toast.

[SurlySeraph]

Casting provides a lot more options than psionics, largely because there are fair more published spells than published powers.

There are a few things I know psionics can do and magic (usually) can't.
The so-called Psionic Save Game trick, which lets you return to a past point if something goes wrong
Relatively easy and effective time travel, via looping Time Regression and Time Hop
An easier time breaking the action economy, such as by applying Link Power, Twin Power, and Metapower to Synchronicity; augmented Temporal Acceleration; Schism; Solicit Psicrystal; etc.
Metamorphosis has some advantages over Polymorph
There are a lot more ways to get infinite power points than to get infinite spells.
In combat, it's possibly to get some very high-DC save-or-die effects via heavily augmenting powers and using Metaconcert, but I'm pretty sure magic can match that. Microcosm is a very good no-save-just-die effect.

I'd say abuse of time travel and Metamorphosis could provide plausible reasons to ignore magic. Using Share Power to turn your psicrystal into a golem is pretty easy and gives you a magic-immune helper pretty easily. You could also write lots of explanations for the downfall of magic into the backstory, such as an archpsion along the lines of the Terminator (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861610/TGs_Pun-Pun_Challenger:_34;The_Terminator34;_%28Finalized% 29) going back in time to eliminate a lot of magical research, destroy obscure magical texts, kill off the ancestors of sorcerous bloodlines, and generally mess up magic; a psionic society abusing Quintessence or Time Hop to avoid a cataclysm that destroyed most of the rest of their world and taking over; mass disruption of magic when the deity of magic was destroyed; and a lot of the nice things that wizards get more of than psionicists do (such as extraplanar spaces and Astral Projection) becoming unusable with the collapse of the Great Wheel.

EDIT: It's possible to mass-brainwash societies without the Diplomacy rules, just harder. See: all Enchantment spells and all Telepathy powers ever. Immunity to mind-affecting shuts this down, though, making undead, intelligent constructs, Slayers, etc. serious threats to such a society.

[Urpriest]

I'd say abuse of time travel and Metamorphosis could provide plausible reasons to ignore magic. Using Share Power to turn your psicrystal into a golem is pretty easy and gives you a magic-immune helper pretty easily.
While cool psionics tricks are a good reason for psionics to become common, I don't feel like they're significant enough to make magic nigh-extinct.


You could also write lots of explanations for the downfall of magic into the backstory, such as an archpsion along the lines of the Terminator (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861610/TGs_Pun-Pun_Challenger:_34;The_Terminator34;_%28Finalized% 29) going back in time to eliminate a lot of magical research, destroy obscure magical texts, kill off the ancestors of sorcerous bloodlines, and generally mess up magic; a psionic society abusing Quintessence or Time Hop to avoid a cataclysm that destroyed most of the rest of their world and taking over; mass disruption of magic when the deity of magic was destroyed; and a lot of the nice things that wizards get more of than psionicists do (such as extraplanar spaces and Astral Projection) becoming unusable with the collapse of the Great Wheel.

I'd rather not have it be a specific event that destroyed magic. This is less of a post-catastrophe setting and more of one governed by entropy: things have simply gone on long enough to wear the edges off the world, with some aspects of the past simply becoming irrelevant. And Man Grew Proud, that sort of thing. For example, the space empire is mostly human because the longer-lived races and the races that can breed with humans have generally been bred into oblivion. The only remaining vestige of elves is a small minority of half-drow (since drow have higher birth rates than elves, especially once Lolth dies). The aforementioned death of the Great Wheel was barely noticed because the place was already a ghost town due to lack of belief.

Extraplanar spaces was another I had forgotten. I presume there is no psionic equivalent to rope trick et al? For the most part it doesn't seem like a world-wrecking issue, though I suppose things like bags of holding will have to be given psionic prerequisites. I had forgotten that psionics lacked an Astral Projection equivalent as well. Astral Projection is less broken when Genesis can't mess with time traits, but it still means you can have a character adventuring without much permanent risk. And I do want to keep the transitive planes mostly intact. One option would be to make Silver Swords mass-producible and convenient for use in relatively common weapons, so that Astral Projection makes you pretty much exactly as safe as if you had gone there in person. Silver Chainsaws anyone?



EDIT: It's possible to mass-brainwash societies without the Diplomacy rules, just harder. See: all Enchantment spells and all Telepathy powers ever. Immunity to mind-affecting shuts this down, though, making undead, intelligent constructs, Slayers, etc. serious threats to such a society.

This I'm not so sure about. Enchantment and Telepathy are great for dealing with specific individuals: you need the king on your side, or a squadron of guards thinking the right way, then good. But is it really economical for mass-brainwashing? Seems like that would require way more spellcasters acting in concert than is feasible. Unless there's a trick I'm not aware of?

Another question: what is the role of psionics in Spelljammer? What about Illithids, Githyanki/Githzerai, Neogi, etc? I'm considering whether this setting should have Spelljammer as part of its past.

[Psyren]

I honestly just don't know psionics well enough to give you any good advice on using it to replace normal spellcasting, except to say that it's tremendously lacking in versatility compared to spellcasting. Psionicists get fewer powers overall compared to wizards, can't change them around at will, and have fewer powers overall to choose from.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Exhibit A (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm)
Exhibit B (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown)
Exhibit C (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b&page=1)

Now, where psionics does lack versatility compared to magic is in two key areas - summoning and illusions. But while those are nice to have for a magic-controlled setting, they are far from required.

A Psionic Tippyverse would involve controlling the very dreams of its inhabitants. Riedra (ruled by the Quori in Eberron) is very close to this ideal.

[Maho-Tsukai]

If you wanted to get a tippverse using psionics you could always use the Euradite for arcane spells and perhaps homebrew a version of the Euradite which works for divine instead of arcane for cleric spells. Add in some way of making magic dwindle(such as say something happening to the weave, if you use that flavor for arcane magic and for divine it's easy to say the gods where killed off somehow, a setting I have uses a literal Deus ex Machina controlled by a BBEG to kill off the gods though there are plenty of other ways to do this.) and thus the euradies/divine euradiets where able to replace the spellcasters since they can have spells as psionic powers.

[Urpriest]

Now, where psionics does lack versatility compared to magic is in two key areas - summoning and illusions. But while those are nice to have for a magic-controlled setting, they are far from required.

A Psionic Tippyverse would involve controlling the very dreams of its inhabitants. Riedra (ruled by the Quori in Eberron) is very close to this ideal.

I hadn't thought much about the role of illusions. While psionics don't have an equivalent to illusion, I don't see that as sufficient reason for spellcasting to be preserved. Illusions are good at two main things: versatile deception, and mimicking other spells (potentially earlier), and neither of those are really things qualitatively unique. Pretty much any combat situation that can be solved with an illusion could be solved with a psionic power that uses a reasonably similar strategy, even if it might be a bit higher level. So I don't think the loss of illusion is all that significant.


If you wanted to get a tippverse using psionics you could always use the Euradite for arcane spells and perhaps homebrew a version of the Euradite which works for divine instead of arcane for cleric spells. Add in some way of making magic dwindle(such as say something happening to the weave, if you use that flavor for arcane magic and for divine it's easy to say the gods where killed off somehow, a setting I have uses a literal Deus ex Machina controlled by a BBEG to kill off the gods though there are plenty of other ways to do this.) and thus the euradies/divine euradiets where able to replace the spellcasters since they can have spells as psionic powers.

See, I'd rather not do either of these things. Spells in general have a much less Sci-Fi feel than Powers, so as I said earlier I'd rather not just use the Spell-to-power Erudite to replace casters. And I'd rather there not be a unique catastrophe that destroys magic, apart from the dissolution of the Great Wheel and the gods mentioned earlier. Magic is still possible in this world, it's just not well known or favored.

[Cieyrin]

Consider Dark Sun, which is the quintessential Psionic run campaign setting, with Magic with Consequences built right in, as well as the gods being distant, uncaring and/or dead.

Building upon the Dark Sun design paradigm without the cataclysm of mass Defiling turning the world to dust involves making the whole Defiling/Preserving bit not quite as devastating to the environs, though the same level of demonization of arcane casting can go a long way to getting it out of the limelight to let psionics creep in as the alternative that doesn't kill your neighbor's petunias when you want to exert some of your mojo upon the world.

As for the Psionic mind-warping, making use of Hidden Talent(Psionic Charm) means not everybody on your payroll has to be Psionic classed to make it work, you just have your Human Experts with Hidden Talent(Psionic Charm) and Negotiator persuade their new friends to the better ways of the Empire. Particularly troublesome people can have specialists sent in, i.e. Telepaths, to fine tune their minds for the betterment of all. :smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

Edit: You don't like the idea of StP Erudites changing the how? Why? It works well, and acts like an industrial revolution sort of thing, making doing things more efficient...

I'd say that, once you get some Spell-To-Power Erudites making spells INTO Psionic Powers, and you get lots of people doing the whole Psychic Reformation to give people power and stuff, that people actually using arcana to cast spells rather than using the *psionic versions thereof* would be seen as passe. Because, once you have access to the entire spell list as manifesting powers, AND you don't have to really use, you know, expensive material components and stuff, than the extra versatility of HOW you can manifest powers overcomes the extra versatility of *really good spells*, since with enough cooperative StP Erudites ganking every single spell from everything ever, and then basically putting the spells (now powers) they have into the collective pool for everyone to learn, you get all the spells anyway...

So everyone basically has the same access to everything (IE, Erudites can manifest any power that used to be arcane or divine), and since they have to jump through far fewer hoops to get the abilities off, than people actually going through those hoops to use those powers the old way is seen as quaint.

[Emperor Tippy]

No, Psionics (at least without a spell to power Erudite or scrolls of arcane spells) can't really create a Tippyverse.

The primary motivation for the creation of a Tippyverse is easy access to teleportation magic; more specifically permanent teleportation circles. And Psionics can't create permanent teleportation circles.

This is the basis for the Tippyverse for several reasons:
1. Permanent Teleportation Circles eliminate trade routes between two fixed locations (and with a network, between multiple fixed locations). This concentrates the population around those TC's, causing megacities to arise.

2. Control over the TC network gives an individual (the wizard) massive economic and political power, with which they can shape society how they desire.

3. This creates a "points of light in the darkness" (stupid 4e stealing my ideas) type setting where you have 99% of the world left as untamed wilds with the last 1% being megacities.

Now, these megacities have to be fed. But you can't cheaply or easily feed them using traditional farming methods, this is where magical traps come in.

Teleportation magic also makes defending a large territory nigh impossible, which again serves to concentrate military power in the hands of the cities; and quickly renders them virtually immune to everything except other cities.

----
Now, the Tippyverse does not have to be dystopian (and in fact most of my versions of the setting aren't). At it's heart, the Tippyverse is an answer to the question "What would the world be like if the RAW was treated as the physical laws of the world, and had been so for a while?"; specifically it is an attempt to answer that question while still allowing all kinds of play (from traditional dungeon crawls and saving the village mayors daughter from orcs all the way on up to high level political intrigue and wars that reshape the entire world). The cities are intended largely for high level play, although a lot of lower level play can happen in them without any problem. They are very much high magic, high wealth, high power, incredibly secure, areas. The wilds outside the cities are intended for more traditional D&D play, low magic, low wealth, varying power levels, no permanent security.

----
For a psionic tippyverse to really exist you need 1) a way to make permanent teleportation circles and 2) to replace at least a significant number of the magical traps with psionic ones. If you can do those two things then you can make a Tippyverse with relative ease.

[Endarire]

Complete Psion 97 has a psionic equivalent to rope trick called psychoportive shelter.

It's a 10 minute manifest (!) compared to rope trick's standard action, but it can be augmented to hold more creatures of any size.

Regarding teleporation, you could make resetting psionic traps to manifest the psionic versions of teleport, dimension door, plane shift, or the like.

[Psyren]

Rather than a resetting trap, how about something more sentient? Say, immortal Brains in Jars (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20070803a) held in thrall to the epic Psion or to his psicrystal(s). They could handle the empire's teleportation needs, with the added benefit of being able to defend themselves, relocate in the face of disaster etc.

[Emperor Tippy]

Not really, they can't handle anywhere near the volume that is needed. The closest you could really come is using bound Archon's with Bag's of Holding/Portable Holes. They have at will greater teleport for themselves + 50 pounds, so you just load everything up into BoH's for them to port to the new location.

[Endarire]

There's still independent research (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#independentResearch). Go make the powers you need!

[Urpriest]

If the main requisites are just teleportation and magical traps, that's easily homebrewed. I had thought of the magical traps issue, given its centrality to the Tippyverse, but I hadn't remembered whether there were psionic trap rules. It would be pretty trivial to create some, and that would paper over that problem.

Teleportation Circles indeed are pretty convenient...in this setting, technology itself might be sufficient to replace them, but it wouldn't affect the early development. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like permanent magical gates (not sure if there were rules for these after the 3.0 Manual of the Planes) would fit the bill. Teleportation circles may be cheaper, but if I'm reading the above posts right cost isn't really the issue. Plus the ability to set a gate key allows for more wizardly/psionic social power. There would have to be a psionic equivalent to those, which is again pretty doable. Psionics could even justify a time-travel equivalent to such gates, which could get interesting if I was careful enough to keep time travel from unraveling the campaign.

Incidentally, it is pretty damn cool to have Emperor Tippy himself commenting on this thread. Nice to hear how this is supposed to work straight from the inventor himself.

While mind control and the like might not be a default part of the Tippyverse, I've definitely heard them brought up in Tippyverse discussions. Are those kinds of dystopias (everyone turned to good and such) plausible/inevitable? What do they rely on? I'm trying to avoid one in this particular world, and from what you're saying it sounds like that's reasonable, but I want to make sure that there's not some trivial way for a high level psion/wizard to brainwash a megacity.

[Emperor Tippy]

There's still independent research (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#independentResearch). Go make the powers you need!
Well of course :smalltongue:

And yeah, resetting traps work as well.

[Psyren]

Not really, they can't handle anywhere near the volume that is needed. The closest you could really come is using bound Archon's with Bag's of Holding/Portable Holes. They have at will greater teleport for themselves + 50 pounds, so you just load everything up into BoH's for them to port to the new location.

Not to contradict you, but I don't see how volume is an issue. The brains aren't going anywhere, so setting one up with one of the myriad infinite PP recursion tricks means they can manifest teleport all day long. Coupled with your own solution to the weight problem and you've got infinite sleepless casting to fuel travel across your empire.

That exact creature isn't even needed - I just picked them because they were stationary and immortal psions. Anything with those characteristics - say, some psionic Elder Brains (LoM) held in thrall to the BBEP (Big Benevolent Epic Psion) - could perform the needed transportative function.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well yes, if you make use of infinite XP tricks (to level them up to the point where they can manifest the teleportation powers) and then make use of infinite PP tricks; they can replace Teleportation Circles.

But at that point you may as well go the whole way and turn everyone in your verse into level 20+ Psions with infinite PP.

[Psyren]

Well yes, if you make use of infinite XP tricks (to level them up to the point where they can manifest the teleportation powers) and then make use of infinite PP tricks; they can replace Teleportation Circles.

But at that point you may as well go the whole way and turn everyone in your verse into level 20+ Psions with infinite PP.

I don't think you need "infinite XP tricks to level them up." They're NPCs; Just advance them, like Robert did in the article I linked. (Or start with something already high-level like the Elder Brains.)

Nor does everyone in the verse need to be epic. I envision one epic Thrallherd (and naturally, his epic psicrystal[s]) controlling a limited number of teleportation nodes like this one. The rest of the populace can then live in peace and harmony, relying on their nigh-omnipotent protector to stave off the wilds around his cities, while he casually monitors their dreams for signs of discontent.

He would most likely be an Elan, to rule eternally over his shining domain. (She?)

[Urpriest]

As an aside to those who don't understand why I'd rather avoid StP Erudite, think about it like this: I want this setting to be psionic not because psionics is necessarily a better, more balanced system, but because it is more "sci-fi". An StP Erudite would use "power points" and a bunch of crystally toys that are indeed more new-age-sci-fi than medieval fantasy. However, since they still would use spells there would still be various incongruous fantasy elements. They would still be able to animate the dead, and this would give them different benefits than merely controlling a body telekinetically, which "scientifically" it shouldn't. While psionics tends to have power that are the same for different energy types, an StP Erudite would have fireballs differently shaped from lightning bolts differently shaped from cones of cold, or in a more optimized world different orbs having different side effects. An StP Erudite would still draw a summoning diagram for planar binding, would still go through various silly loops for regular binding. Keeping the spells means the design principles of the spells stick around, and those design principles will feel anachronistic.


I'm still looking for more tricks that casters can do and psions can't. Bags of holding, teleportation circles, and magical traps were all good points. I think there is at least one psionic golem, but it might be worthwhile to make more. Any other ideas?

[Psyren]

Focusing on how psionics can imitate magic is useful, but you also need to focus on how psionics is different (namely, better.) A couple of avenues:

Healing:
I'm not sure how the Tippyverse handles this, but psionics is unique in that they don't need to rely on divine magic (and therefore, epic outsiders/cosmic forces) for healing, resurrection, status restoration etc. at all. Even the elusive Heal and Life Seeds, which normally require a divine focus, are available to psions without one. Clerics heal by pulling positive energy in from somewhere else (e.g. the PEP) - whereas a psionic healer works by rearranging the molecules of his charges, his own after absorbing their wounds, or both.

Why is this important? Well, even a cleric of the most general ideals has to fervently believe in them to work his miracles. Faith in something is required of them, even if that something is atheism. Meanwhile, a psionic healer doesn't have to believe in anything at all, and can take a purely clinical worldview. The lack of reliance on something greater - deity, cosmic force etc. - can contribute to the BBEP's dominance of the world by inducing apathy in the populace, or stilling their desire to rebel.


Chronomancy: Psionics is much better at playing hob with the time stream than magic. This can range from simple things like Quintessence for food storage or long-term incarceration, to moderate affairs like Time Hopping people and things into the future (say, hopping the workforce in a building to keep them out of the way of construction), to the complex i.e. anything involving Forced Dream. (The Dream of Metal is an extreme example of what kind of shenanigans psionics are capable of here.)

Identity: Psionics can go beyond simple mind control - they can take over a person's very being on a fundamental level, with effects like Assimilate, Mind Switch, Mind Seed and even Fusion.

Information-gathering: Psionics is capable of some pretty impressive problem-solving, without the messy business of interrupting a deity in the shower or contacting practical jokester Eladrin by mistake or whatever. Because the Astral Plane effectively records... well, everything ever, even stuff that happens on private demiplanes... it's very hard to hide anything from the BBEP's information network. Between Hypercognition and Metafaculty, nothing is secret, and everything is discoverable. Hypercognition is particularly egregious, amounting to "I wonder if I know anything about X?" - moreso because it is available via Expanded Knowledge. Arguably, they can both defeat Mind Blank and Wish - Metafaculty doing so explicitly, and Hypercognition doing so because it targets the manifester rather than the object of his attention.

Psicrystal Power: Post-epic, your Psicrystal actually becomes a manifester, and it does so for free. Coupled with its ability to gain feats, this gives your empire very reliable backup - your pet rock doubles as your steward. Even more egregious - it can create psicrystals of its own, leaving your empire in very capable hands. (Well, not really hands.)

[Urpriest]

Definitely like some of these ideas. Quintessence in particular would have lots and lots of interesting uses. I could see Psicrystals being very handy in day-to-day life, both for the epic ruler and for lower level people with some psionic training. As for information-gathering, Metafaculty's requirement that you pick a person makes it very good for tracking someone down but less useful for more general civilization-maintenance. Still, in a world where someone could be anywhere in the galaxy it gives a very good way of finding them to the sufficiently equipped. Hypercognition on the other hand could send science (both magical and mundane) forward by leaps and bounds with each manifesting. Mentats ahoy!

The reason I'm not focusing too much on the cool tricks psionics can pull off is because a world in which psionics does cool things is a world in which people practice psionics, not necessarily a world in which they neglect magic. If psionics can do cool things but magic can do different cool things then some people will study psionics and some will study magic, and both will be preserved. If psionics can do all of the worthwhile cool things that magic can do, on the other hand, then people won't bother much with magic aside from as a curiosity. I just want to make that part plausible: take away uniqueness of a few magical toys by giving comparable psionic ones, while still sticking with the psionic flavor.

[Tvtyrant]

I have now stolen your idea in order to make Spelljammer make sense in a 3.5 context. And there is nothing you can do to stop me :smallamused:

[Radar]

(...)
I'm still looking for more tricks that casters can do and psions can't. Bags of holding, teleportation circles, and magical traps were all good points. I think there is at least one psionic golem, but it might be worthwhile to make more. Any other ideas?
You touched one of the things arcane casters do better: creating and buffing a disposable army of minions - undead mostly. There is also the thing about all-day buffs, but it's not that special.

[Eldan]

Two things:

Teleportation: the brain in a jar, or whatever else you are using, would not need to have infinite PPs, but a limited, and clearly definable amount: enough to either manifest Greater Psionic Teleportation every round, 24/7 (i.e. a metric crapton), or to manifest teleportation circle anew every time it runs out. Which, at say manifester level 20, is only 7.2 times per day, or 122.4 power points. Doable, given that a level 20 psion has 344 already without bonus from high ability scores.

A different problem, and one I don't know if psionics can handle it, is the production of food.

[AnswersQuestion]

Vancian spellcasting...fetishistic? What?
"not scientific"? Being "scientific" is to have and use a methodic approach to produce knowledge. Vancian spellcasting is ALL about manipulating specific forces that cause specific effects. Even if it does "weird stuff", all of it is reilable enough to be perfectly accountable in-universe.
Vancian spellcasting is as "scientific" as engineering.

[Eldan]

Of course vancian magic is, basically, a scientific theory and approach. However, I can see why it could be seen as not being scientific in-universe:

Think about it: you have two systems. As an example, let's say, you go to two apothecaries.
The first one looks at your prescription, thinks for a minute, and hands you your medicine.
The second one takes out a book, draws a circle on the floor, lights a candle flings a few herbs into the air, then gets your prescription from a shelf.

Now, while both systems work, and the second one can solve a few problems the first one apparently can't, which would look more logical?

It could basically be the same with psionics and arcane magic. People look at both, and they see that they both achieve basically the same effects, but one does it with pure thinking (which is seen as a good thing, in a society just developing science), the other one uses strange rituals, weird ingredients and ancient books and traditions.

[AnswersQuestion]

Of course vancian magic is, basically, a scientific theory and approach. However, I can see why it could be seen as not being scientific in-universe:

Think about it: you have two systems. As an example, let's say, you go to two apothecaries.
The first one looks at your prescription, thinks for a minute, and hands you your medicine.
The second one takes out a book, draws a circle on the floor, lights a candle flings a few herbs into the air, then gets your prescription from a shelf.

Now, while both systems work, and the second one can solve a few problems the first one apparently can't, which would look more logical? Both. If you can consistently reproduce an effect with the same method and same circumstances, then that's all the logic you need to work with it. Science is just that at its core: learning how things work by discovering consistent behaviors to analyze in the system in question.

Think about this: To us "chanting words of power to improve our muscles" sounds utterly retarded because we know that uttering a few words won't make ourselves stronger by any recognizable magnitude. But in a world where it DOES, it won't sound any more fetishistic than "if you heat this piece of metal, touching it will burn you"

[Radar]

(...)
A different problem, and one I don't know if psionics can handle it, is the production of food.
I just though about arcane method of producing real food: Wall of Stone -> Stone to Flash. Granted, it's meat only, but it's unlimited and doesn't require divine spells.

Thing to consider: almost any effect a Wizard can produce, an Artificer can replicate and Artificers would certainly fit the setting more easily.

[Eldan]

Both. If you can consistently reproduce an effect with the same method and same circumstances, then that's all the logic you need to work with it. Science is just that at its core: learning how things work by discovering consistent behaviors to analyze in the system in question.

Think about this: To us "chanting words of power to improve our muscles" sounds utterly retarded because we know that uttering a few words won't make ourselves stronger by any recognizable magnitude. But in a world where it DOES, it won't sound any more fetishistic than "if you heat this piece of metal, touching it will burn you"

Of course. I know enough about scientific theory to see that both theories are equally scientific.

However, I was not talking about it from this perspective, but rather from a world which is just undergoing a major intellectual revolution. I could see some major backlash about a system that is seen as more focused on it's rituals and traditions than on intellectual reasoning and research

Basically, one of the two systems could be seen as superfluous: both wizards and psions have to think about what they are doing, and do so hard. However, one of the two requires a few dozen extra props to achieve the same effects, and is generally less flexible in doing so (he requires preparation, the psion doesn't).

[AnswersQuestion]

Of course. I know enough about scientific theory to see that both theories are equally scientific.

However, I was not talking about it from this perspective, but rather from a world which is just undergoing a major intellectual revolution. I could see some major backlash about a system that is seen as more focused on it's rituals and traditions than on intellectual reasoning and research.

The problem is that you are calling somatic and material components "rituals and traditions" as if they were works of faith, while they are really just confirmed methods that work. As far as actual effectiveness goes, a society that lives with vancian arcanism just won't consider spells "rituals and traditions" in any pejorative way.

[Eldan]

That is a good point. However, as I said above, the question becomes: are they necessary? If a psionicist can achieve the same results without them, thereby saving money on books, scrolls and ingredients, why use them?

[Caewil]

Psionics can plausibly replace spellcasting, but not unless there's some reason why spellcasting is unappealing. An evil magic empire and a desire on the part of the rest of the world to avoid magic will work well enough. Once psionics gets going, all everyone is going to remember is that psionics brought the enlightenment and progress whilst magic caused trouble.

Also, since those magic rituals have to be prepared and can thus be kept secret, there's an incentive for wizards to hoard their power. Psionicists just develop their powers, there aren't any "tricks".

[Ernir]

Thematically, there's a crapload of stuff psionics can't do. Like necromancy, pretty much the whole of it.

Practically... most of it can be replicated with psionics as-is. Away with zombies working the assembly lines, in with astral constructs.

Anyway, stuff that psionics aren't half as good at doing as vancian:
Buffs. Vancian is much better at making someone that isn't the caster powerful. And I can't see how making someone else powerful is going to go out of style. Perhaps if you had all of your fighting done by spell-immune golems, but then you end up with a setting that isn't very useful for playing in...
Status condition removal. Restoration is covered. Stuff like Remove Curse (as far as I can tell) isn't. Which means curses (and whatever else I don't know about) isn't going out of style.
Raising the dead. Requiring a Reality Revision just to bring someone back is embarrassing if a hippie with "holy oils" can do it ten levels earlier. True Resurrection, an enormously important spell, isn't covered at all.
Food and water. Psions work around food by not needing any themselves, but they don't provide for others.
Prestidigitation. Seriously, Psionics don't have it. And that spell covers stuff like hygiene, which completely revolutionizes society if made available enough. (How are psions going ever to look superior if they smell, while wizards don't? :smalltongue:) Also Purify Food/Drink, Detect Poison
Continual Flame. Is there a psionic equivalent?
Comprehend Languages? Psions get around languages by establishing telepathic links, but books that have already been written aren't really susceptible to those.
Glyphs/Symbols? Those things are useful.
Atonement. Mark of Justice. Alignment-based magic in general. Hallow/Unhallow, Forbiddance...

Of course, Bend Reality and such can always fix it, but resorting to high-level stuff that costs XP means arcane is coming out ahead very noticeably.

takes out a book, draws a circle on the floor, lights a candle flings a few herbs into the air, then gets your prescription from a shelf.
So that's why apothecaries always keep the subscription medicines in the back. And why it takes them so long to find my pills.

[Eldan]

Absolutely.

Also, the necromancy and resurrection issues remind me:
What happens to the souls of the dead in this setting, if there's no outer planes? Do they become ghosts? Are they reborn? Do they just go to the astral and hang around there for all eternity?

[Psyren]

For the arcane debate, I think we need to distinguish "arcane magic" and "vancian magic." They aren't the same thing; Spell Points, Recharge etc. are not vancian, but have the same tried-and-true somatic and material components, diagrams etc.


A different problem, and one I don't know if psionics can handle it, is the production of food.

What is this "food" you speak of? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sustenance.htm) :smallwink:

In all seriousness though, there are several ways around that. I'm not sure any realm with planar travel (including dreams) is subject to the same rules of scarcity that we are. Even relying on mundane food production however, you could blanket an entire farm in Quintessence in the face of harsh weather/pestilence, or mass time hop half your population while food stores are replenished.

Psionics also gets useful power versions of spells, such as Control Weather, in Secrets of Sarlona.

@ Ernir:


Buffs. Vancian is much better at making someone that isn't the caster powerful. And I can't see how making someone else powerful is going to go out of style. Perhaps if you had all of your fighting done by spell-immune golems, but then you end up with a setting that isn't very useful for playing in...

Psionics is not good at buffing others because the focus is on self-actualization. But anyone who should be in a fight can buff themselves, and anyone who shouldn't won't suddenly become a skilled warrior with a few buffs.


Status condition removal. Restoration is covered. Stuff like Remove Curse (as far as I can tell) isn't. Which means curses (and whatever else I don't know about) isn't going out of style.

Aura Alteration and its big brother Psychic Chirurgery can both handle Curses, Geas etc.


Raising the dead. Requiring a Reality Revision just to bring someone back is embarrassing if a hippie with "holy oils" can do it ten levels earlier. True Resurrection, an enormously important spell, isn't covered at all.

Both of those operate on the sufferance of an epic-level outsider approving all of your revivals. If the goal of the Tippyverse is to be self-sufficient, then psionics is no more "embarrassing" in this aspect than arcane magic. (Besides, Psionic Revivify is a 5th-level power.)


Food and water. Psions work around food by not needing any themselves, but they don't provide for others.

See my response to Eldan - however, I believe a society of psions is more likely to teach its inhabitants to do without food and water than muck around with crop production and other such mundanities


Prestidigitation. Seriously, Psionics don't have it.
...
Comprehend Languages?

Sure they do - Secrets of Sarlona pg. 133 :smalltongue:
Wizards don't smell? Psions aren't the ones walking around with bags of ox and bat poop.


Also Purify Food/Drink, Detect Poison

Neither are really relevant if your population doesn't need to eat, if they are eating controlled food etc.


Continual Flame. Is there a psionic equivalent?

Does there need to be? I envision crystalline streetlights.


Glyphs/Symbols? Those things are useful.

Spirit Mark (psionic Arcane Mark) can make them, but again I question the need.


Atonement. Mark of Justice. Alignment-based magic in general. Hallow/Unhallow, Forbiddance...

Why are any of those needed in a self-sufficient, deity-free world?
In fact, I view not having alignment-based magic as a blessing - it means you're free to have a world with grey/subjective morality.
(CPsi has a bunch of these anyway, including Protection from X, Aura Sight etc.)

[Urpriest]

Vancian spellcasting...fetishistic? What?
"not scientific"? Being "scientific" is to have and use a methodic approach to produce knowledge. Vancian spellcasting is ALL about manipulating specific forces that cause specific effects. Even if it does "weird stuff", all of it is reilable enough to be perfectly accountable in-universe.
Vancian spellcasting is as "scientific" as engineering.

Hence why I was careful in my post to use the phrase "Sci-Fi" rather than "Scientific". Magic in, for example, the Wheel of Time is perfectly methodical and useful, and can be studied, perfected, and formulated systematically. That doesn't make Wheel of Time a Sci-Fi series. I also used the term "New Age" a few times: in a futuristic setting, I want magic to resemble modern pseudoscience more than medieval pseudoscience. It's an aesthetic preference.


You touched one of the things arcane casters do better: creating and buffing a disposable army of minions - undead mostly. There is also the thing about all-day buffs, but it's not that special.

All-day buffs are easier with casting, but psionics still has persistent power. Armies of minions are trickier, I agree, especially with the Complete Psionic Astral Construct nerf (which I might elect to ignore). In this setting, however, robots and drones could replace those with their technological equivalents, and Psionic Artificers are I believe still able to take Craft Construct as a bonus feat, which implies some way to use it.


Psionics can plausibly replace spellcasting, but not unless there's some reason why spellcasting is unappealing. An evil magic empire and a desire on the part of the rest of the world to avoid magic will work well enough. Once psionics gets going, all everyone is going to remember is that psionics brought the enlightenment and progress whilst magic caused trouble.

Also, since those magic rituals have to be prepared and can thus be kept secret, there's an incentive for wizards to hoard their power. Psionicists just develop their powers, there aren't any "tricks".

As I've said, a specific event (magical empire, catastrophe) isn't as desirable. However, one thing I am thinking of is stipulating that psionics is simpler to study, much like gravity is simpler to study accurately than fluid resistance. It's easier to design a curriculum around psionics than it is around magic (essentially, magic is riddled with exceptions and special cases [metamagic tricks] while psionics strictly obeys simple equations [manifester level is a strict limit]). So in general people will learn psionics more readily than magic.




Anyway, stuff that psionics aren't half as good at doing as vancian:
Buffs. Vancian is much better at making someone that isn't the caster powerful. And I can't see how making someone else powerful is going to go out of style. Perhaps if you had all of your fighting done by spell-immune golems, but then you end up with a setting that isn't very useful for playing in...

Raising the dead. Requiring a Reality Revision just to bring someone back is embarrassing if a hippie with "holy oils" can do it ten levels earlier. True Resurrection, an enormously important spell, isn't covered at all.
Food and water. Psions work around food by not needing any themselves, but they don't provide for others.

Continual Flame. Is there a psionic equivalent?

Atonement. Mark of Justice. Alignment-based magic in general. Hallow/Unhallow, Forbiddance...

snipped to cut stuff where I agree with Psyren


Buffs are interesting, and they should have some role. Psionic Artificers will exist, and Infusions can provide a good variety of buffs, as can things like Psionic Tattoos. I think we'll be able to make due, especially with a very psionically capable population.

Without the Great Wheel, divine magic is basically going to be flat-out gone (yes, even clerics of ideals in this setting), so Resurrection etc. will just be flat-out tricky to get. Barring Shadow Miracles (and really Arcane Disciple shouldn't exist either) the remaining casters won't have an easier time with these than psions will.

For food and water, if we have psionic traps, why not just psionic traps of Minor Creation? Even if the food isn't permanent in the strict sense, eating it should still provide the full benefits, unless there's some rules block on conjured food I'm missing. Also, Sustenance will likely exist in item form.

Continual Flame is more efficient than the psionic equivalent, but there are viable psionic equivalents (items of My Light would be amusing). And really, this setting has the technology to just have normal electric streetlights even if there isn't a RAW way to get psionic crystalline streetlights.

Alignment is going to be substantially less important, again the setting will have a much greyer idea of morality, so BoXD good and evil won't usually be what people are concerned about, nor will they delineate sides. I may just toss out alignment.


Absolutely.

Also, the necromancy and resurrection issues remind me:
What happens to the souls of the dead in this setting, if there's no outer planes? Do they become ghosts? Are they reborn? Do they just go to the astral and hang around there for all eternity?

I'm thinking that this setting may not have souls at all, or may have them in much more restricted form. Just as the Great Wheel dies from lack of belief, Souls lose ground to Minds until finally people are just Minds. Incarnum won't exist in this setting as a result. So people don't survive death. Their minds may be transferred to undead or elans, and they can be brought back shortly after death with Psionic Revivify (thanks to Psyren for pointing that out) or later with other measures. But souls simply don't exist anymore. This should also neatly get rid of much of necromancy's appeal.


snip

Excellent stuff, very helpful.

[Psyren]

A nice trick with Psionic Revivify - to get around the "pay XP for rounds window," simply distribute Bags of Holding/Portable Holes to your party-members, which you've been using your leftover PP every night to load up with Quintessence. When a party member snuffs it, grab the corpse and toss it in - time ceases to pass for them and you no longer have to worry about PR's time limit, thus the XP cost stays negligible.

With this trick, Psionic raising is actually better than Divine - the victim comes back with no level or even Constitution loss, and the power costs a measly 200 XP and requires no diamonds.

And seeing as I just remembered this one, I'll submit it to the "psionic tricks" thread.

[Urpriest]

A nice trick with Psionic Revivify - to get around the "pay XP for rounds window," simply distribute Bags of Holding/Portable Holes to your party-members, which you've been using your leftover PP every night to load up with Quintessence. When a party member snuffs it, grab the corpse and toss it in - time ceases to pass for them and you no longer have to worry about PR's time limit, thus the XP cost stays negligible.

With this trick, Psionic raising is actually better than Divine - the victim comes back with no level or even Constitution loss, and the power costs a measly 200 XP and requires no diamonds.

One more reason why this world is going to need a ****load of Quintessence. They'll probably end up with factories carrying psionic traps of Quintessence, with pipes to carry it away so the trap itself isn't covered and stopped. As a bonus, the pipes would never rust...

[kestrel404]

Lack of Incarnum and the MIC reprint of the Torc of PP preservation closes the infinite-PP loopholes. Unless someone can think of another PP reducer?

As for the original topic, when you switch from Magic to Psionics, most of what you lose is variety - there are SO many spells out there compared to powers that it's pretty hard to find exactly the right solution to every problem. You'll also be rather limited in the variety of your base classes.

For 'full caster' psionics you've got:
Psion/Erudite (Int)
Wilder (Cha)
Ardent (Wis)

For 'partial caster' psionics you've got:
Psychic Warrior (Wis)
Psychic Rogue (Int)
Lurk (Int)
Divine Mind (Wis)

Notice that there's only one class on there with Charisma as the power stat? And it's a fairly sucky base class? That's going to skew things quite a bit.

There is also no 'NPC class' for psionics, but that's easy enough to fix - Take a Psychic Warrior, make him int based, strip away his bonus feats and give him powers off the Wilder list. Now you've got a Psionic equivalent of the Adept.

With lots of Psionics comes lots of Thrallherds. You'll probably want to have some laws involving the treatment of Thralls in your setting.

That's all I can think of. Hope that helps.

[Urpriest]

A psionic NPC class is a good idea, and something I hadn't thought of. I think it would be better to model it off the Magewright than the Adept, though, given the nature of the setting. If I need a caster for some primitive tribal society it probably would still be an adept with vancian casting.

I don't view the lack of a Cha-based full caster beyond the Wilder as a particularly huge problem. Character diversity will be hurt by the smaller list of classes (though not all that much smaller. Martial Adepts still exist, as do the nonmagical PHB classes). I've been thinking about ways to remedy this, and I've been putting together a somewhat complex scheme where everyone gestalts with d20 Modern/Future classes. I'm working out the kinks in it, and it seems like a fun idea.

For Thrallherds, the simplest solution would be to recognize it as a form of mind control, and make mind control only legal under rather specific circumstances. So someone could try keeping thralls illegally, or they could have thralls who would otherwise not have choices in life either (perhaps less dangerous convicts, or the insane or mentally disabled). This will all depend on how dystopian/dark I want the setting to go, of course.

[Eldan]

There is one thing I just thought of, to work around the issue of buffs: grafts. Since a lot of aberrations are psionic (Aboleths, Illithids) grafts are already connected to psionics, at least indirectly. In a SciFi setting, you could easily include them: make clinics where one can get cybernetic (warforged) or biological (Aboleth, Illithid, Daelkyr) grafts.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Lack of Incarnum and the MIC reprint of the Torc of PP preservation closes the infinite-PP loopholes. Unless someone can think of another PP reducer?

Metamind + temporal reiteration is one way to get infinite PP, though it isn't technically a PP reducer and doesn't come online for a while; however, a psion 13/metamind 10 could mind seed a bunch of people into psion 5/metamind 10s to get PP batteries.

Which brings up another interesting tactic. An illithid city I had in one campaign created "psychic rechargers" by using the above tactic and then using apopsi and psychic chirurgery to remove all of the subject's powers except temporal reiteration and bestow power--inflict the subject with cascade flu, and it will constantly and uncontrollably manifest temporal reiteration and bestow power, keeping the loop going and slowly recharging a manifester who stands nearby. Just keep the subject contained somehow (Dex 0, dominated, whatever) and you can put any and all prisoners (whose minds you don't care about keeping, of course) to work for the greater good granting arbitrary amounts of PP to anyone within range.

[Psyren]

For a Psionic NPC class - DSP has the Augur. (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/augur)

And while we're reaching outside first-party - DSP gives us the Thoughtsinger and Society Mind, the latter of which can create a mental network that spans planes.

For infinite PP without the Torc, Affinity Field + Earth Power + Bestow Power + at least two other manifesters (preferably, your psicrystal and its own psicrystal for trust's sake.) Though honestly you can just do without MiC, it's hardly needed.

[Urpriest]

There is one thing I just thought of, to work around the issue of buffs: grafts. Since a lot of aberrations are psionic (Aboleths, Illithids) grafts are already connected to psionics, at least indirectly. In a SciFi setting, you could easily include them: make clinics where one can get cybernetic (warforged) or biological (Aboleth, Illithid, Daelkyr) grafts.

Grafts will definitely be in the picture, at least for Daelkyr and Warforged (Illithids are extinct, and the last Aboleth is kept in a fortified equivalent of SeaWorld where its ancestral memories are plumbed for useful knowledge). But since the setting will use some d20 Future, I can always use their cybernetics rules as well.


Metamind + temporal reiteration is one way to get infinite PP, though it isn't technically a PP reducer and doesn't come online for a while; however, a psion 13/metamind 10 could mind seed a bunch of people into psion 5/metamind 10s to get PP batteries.

Which brings up another interesting tactic. An illithid city I had in one campaign created "psychic rechargers" by using the above tactic and then using apopsi and psychic chirurgery to remove all of the subject's powers except temporal reiteration and bestow power--inflict the subject with cascade flu, and it will constantly and uncontrollably manifest temporal reiteration and bestow power, keeping the loop going and slowly recharging a manifester who stands nearby. Just keep the subject contained somehow (Dex 0, dominated, whatever) and you can put any and all prisoners (whose minds you don't care about keeping, of course) to work for the greater good granting arbitrary amounts of PP to anyone within range.

This sounds like an incredibly dangerous tactic. What if someone comes along and uses Psychic Chirurgery and Psionic Restoration to get one of these back up to full power? In very short order you'd have a pissed off high level psion with infinite power points on your hands. And you can't just keep them isolated, because then nobody could use them for PP regeneration.

Flavorwise, it's a little more dystopian than I want my humans to go. Their alien enemies on the other hand...that could be a fine way of making them just that much more disturbing, even in a world with shades of gray.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

This sounds like an incredibly dangerous tactic. What if someone comes along and uses Psychic Chirurgery and Psionic Restoration to get one of these back up to full power? In very short order you'd have a pissed off high level psion with infinite power points on your hands. And you can't just keep them isolated, because then nobody could use them for PP regeneration.

The idea of the Tippyverse was that you have a very few ridiculously powerful wizards in charge with magic running the lives of everyone else. Psychic chirurgery is a 9th-level telepath power; you're probably not going to have enough 17th-level telepaths running around that aren't under the rulers' collective thumb to pose a problem; the benefit to all of the psion 4s and 5s running around would be massive enough to make up for it.

[Tvtyrant]

... Does the recharging need them to be able to actually use the psionic powers? Because you could simply dump the powers into, say, fiendish celestial/halfdragon dogs and then have them live in little dog kennels. Then you go up, give the dog a treat and pet it while recharging, it gets walks every day and what not, and everyone feels good about it.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

... Does the recharging need them to be able to actually use the psionic powers? Because you could simply dump the powers into, say, fiendish celestial/halfdragon dogs and then have them live in little dog kennels. Then you go up, give the dog a treat and pet it while recharging, it gets walks every day and what not, and everyone feels good about it.

I assumed mind seed had to target a sapient being; if you want to interpret it otherwise, a dog kennel would work just fine.

[Tvtyrant]

Those are sapient; 3 int :P

Edit: Drat, it says humanoid. Quick, find a 3 int humanoid that is incredibly kind and loving!

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Those are sapient; 3 int :P

If you use celestial/fiendish versions, why is that any better than using humans? Either you use normal animals or you have moral issues, I'd think.

[Tvtyrant]

If you use celestial/fiendish versions, why is that any better than using humans? Either you use normal animals or you have moral issues, I'd think.

Because they are barely sentient; moot point as it calls for humanoids. And they apparently get your int score, so that doesn't help anyway.

Polymorph rocks into mini-clones of people everyone hates and implant in those? Who would mind walking around seeing a trussed up Hitler?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Because they are barely sentient; moot point as it calls for humanoids. And they apparently get your int score, so that doesn't help anyway.

True. So damned if you do, damned if you don't.


Polymorph rocks into mini-clones of people everyone hates and implant in those? Who would mind walking around seeing a trussed up Hitler?

Polymorph how, exactly? Metamorphosis? :smallamused:

[Tvtyrant]

Doh! Well, that leaves me with just torturing real people... Oh well, they had their chance!

As a person who hasn't really ever been interested in Psionics, I couldn't tell you exactly how to do this, but if the leaders made them look like trees then no one would care. If it were spells I would use flesh to stone, stone shape, stone to flesh and barkskin. Horrifying? Yes. Effective? Also yes.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Doh! Well, that leaves me with just torturing real people... Oh well, they had their chance!

As a person who hasn't really ever been interested in Psionics, I couldn't tell you exactly how to do this, but if the leaders made them look like trees then no one would care. If it were spells I would use flesh to stone, stone shape, stone to flesh and barkskin. Horrifying? Yes. Effective? Also yes.

Hmm. Dominate them, reduce their Dex and Str to 0, and give them metamorphosis as well--Cascade Flu can do up to three powers. Then, turn them into trees, don't tell anything about what they really are, and tell people it's ancient elven souls come back to aid their people with their wisdom and power. Stick a psicrystal in them and a trusted manifester can play the part of the "ancestor" too. :smallcool:

[Tvtyrant]

Hmm. Dominate them, reduce their Dex and Str to 0, and give them metamorphosis as well--Cascade Flu can do up to three powers. Then, turn them into trees, don't tell anything about what they really are, and tell people it's ancient elven souls come back to aid their people with their wisdom and power. Stick a psicrystal in them and a trusted manifester can play the part of the "ancestor" too. :smallcool:

I like the way you think! You could even make owning your own a status symbol; buying a "power tree" and keeping it in your garden for upperclass members, keeping it in your factory to keep workers going for corporations, etc. No one has any idea they are people, they just see trees.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I like the way you think! You could even make owning your own a status symbol; buying a "power tree" and keeping it in your garden for upperclass members, keeping it in your factory to keep workers going for corporations, etc. No one has any idea they are people, they just see trees.

Yep. Dwarves could have ancestor statues, other races could do other things. And the best part? They're practically everywhere, and every single one has a psicrystal in it that lets the epic or near-epic manifesters play their part, so if anyone tries to invade, the country basically has an epic manifester on every street corner for defense.

[Endarire]

Polymorph comes from the Spell to Power Erudite.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Polymorph comes from the Spell to Power Erudite.


[...]so as I said earlier I'd rather not just use the Spell-to-power Erudite to replace casters.

:smallcool:

[Tvtyrant]

Yep. Dwarves could have ancestor statues, other races could do other things. And the best part? They're practically everywhere, and every single one has a psicrystal in it that lets the epic or near-epic manifesters play their part, so if anyone tries to invade, the country basically has an epic manifester on every street corner for defense.

Really angry epic manifesters though; you would need to find a way to convince them not to be pissed. I propose never letting them out; they are simply too dangerous.

[Psyren]

The idea of the Tippyverse was that you have a very few ridiculously powerful wizards in charge with magic running the lives of everyone else. Psychic chirurgery is a 9th-level telepath power; you're probably not going to have enough 17th-level telepaths running around that aren't under the rulers' collective thumb to pose a problem; the benefit to all of the psion 4s and 5s running around would be massive enough to make up for it.

I envision one epic psion able to run this entire world. His fleet of psicrystals can cover any discipline he himself did not learn, thanks to Psicrystal Power + Epic Expanded Knowledge. So the BBEP's own lack of Psychic Chirugery (if he is not a Telepath, which honestly I find unlikely) is not a hindrance at all.

This also handles the "epic manifester on every street corner defense" - they are all "you," and you can share Greater Metamorphosis with ALL of them across the network. (You share it with your primary, who shares it with his secondary, who...) They would do this by touch, to get around the 5-foot range limit from mental sharing. (Or they can just learn/manifest it themselves.)

This again plays into a strength of psionics - psicrystals are usable in tactics that dwarf the capabilities of familiars, because they can gain feats (including epic feats), can become epic manifesters at the same time you do, and most importantly are shards of your own personality, which precludes rebellion.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I envision one epic psion able to run this entire world. His fleet of psicrystals can cover any discipline he himself did not learn, thanks to Psicrystal Power + Epic Expanded Knowledge. So the BBEP's own lack of Psychic Chirugery (if he is not a Telepath, which honestly I find unlikely) is not a hindrance at all.

This also handles the "epic manifester on every street corner defense" - they are all "you," and you can share Greater Metamorphosis with ALL of them across the network. (You share it with your primary, who shares it with his secondary, who...) They would do this by touch, to get around the 5-foot range limit from mental sharing. (Or they can just learn/manifest it themselves.)

Precisely what I meant...though I was assuming a sort of ruling council instead of one guy, so that (A) you could focus on different duties and (B) for fusion and metaconcert shenanigans. :smallamused:


Really angry epic manifesters though; you would need to find a way to convince them not to be pissed. I propose never letting them out; they are simply too dangerous.

You misunderstand; you're (i.e. the guy(s) in charge) simply channeling through psicrystals (plus whatever powers they have, of course), so the manifesters are yours and the defensive perimeter is simply something letting you be in many places at once. The actual guys in the trees/stones/etc. are never coming out.

[Radar]

I envision one epic psion able to run this entire world. His fleet of psicrystals can cover any discipline he himself did not learn, thanks to Psicrystal Power + Epic Expanded Knowledge. So the BBEP's own lack of Psychic Chirugery (if he is not a Telepath, which honestly I find unlikely) is not a hindrance at all.

This also handles the "epic manifester on every street corner defense" - they are all "you," and you can share Greater Metamorphosis with ALL of them across the network. (You share it with your primary, who shares it with his secondary, who...) They would do this by touch, to get around the 5-foot range limit from mental sharing. (Or they can just learn/manifest it themselves.)

This again plays into a strength of psionics - psicrystals are usable in tactics that dwarf the capabilities of familiars, because they can gain feats (including epic feats), can become epic manifesters at the same time you do, and most importantly are shards of your own personality, which precludes rebellion.
So we're talking Emperor (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind) here? I like that! If you develop psionic versions of Scry (important to view your destination before teleporting) and Greater Teleport, then he can also be responsible for most of the interstellar travel as the only being with manifester level high enough (night infinite or just insanly high - he's epic, thare has to be a way to pull this off) to move whole spaceships around (probably sentient constructs to be treated as creature by the teleport power). Each spaceship would have one of Emperor's psicrystals, through which Psionic Greater Teleport would be manifested. You may ask, how will he be able to complete that many tasks at once? Synchronity and Temporal Acceleration shenanigans of course!

[Psyren]

There already are psionic versions of Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/remoteViewing.htm) and Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportPsionicGreater.htm) :smallsmile:

[Urpriest]

So we're talking Emperor (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind) here? I like that! If you develop psionic versions of Scry (important to view your destination before teleporting) and Greater Teleport, then he can also be responsible for most of the interstellar travel as the only being with manifester level high enough (night infinite or just insanly high - he's epic, thare has to be a way to pull this off) to move whole spaceships around (probably sentient constructs to be treated as creature by the teleport power). Each spaceship would have one of Emperor's psicrystals, through which Psionic Greater Teleport would be manifested. You may ask, how will he be able to complete that many tasks at once? Synchronity and Temporal Acceleration shenanigans of course!

I was really reluctant to have a one-person Emperor, but the idea is starting to sound cooler...I still think that making living PP batteries will be reserved for humanity's inhuman rivals, but I'm definitely leaning towards giving humanity a god-emperor-figure. Given the earlier explanation I gave for the Great Wheel dissolving, perhaps his title is the Lady's Consort.

[Radar]

There already are psionic versions of Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/remoteViewing.htm) and Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportPsionicGreater.htm) :smallsmile:
I reeeeealy should have put some points into Spot. >.<
(or rolled an abysmal Wisdom score)

[Eldan]

I was really reluctant to have a one-person Emperor, but the idea is starting to sound cooler...I still think that making living PP batteries will be reserved for humanity's inhuman rivals, but I'm definitely leaning towards giving humanity a god-emperor-figure. Given the earlier explanation I gave for the Great Wheel dissolving, perhaps his title is the Lady's Consort.

If you name him Trolan, I'll love you forever :smallwink:

PS: this is a spoiler, please no one explain that reference.

[Cieyrin]

There already are psionic versions of Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/remoteViewing.htm) and Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportPsionicGreater.htm) :smallsmile:

As well as a psionic version of Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportationCirclePsionic.htm), it's just slightly less accessible, given it's only available to Nomads and epic Psions. The only thing holding back the economic distribution system is a significant lack in the way of Psionic Permanency, as, far as I can tell, Quintessence doesn't work on powers. :smallannoyed:

[Urpriest]

As well as a psionic version of Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportationCirclePsionic.htm), it's just slightly less accessible, given it's only available to Nomads and epic Psions. The only thing holding back the economic distribution system is a significant lack in the way of Psionic Permanency, as, far as I can tell, Quintessence doesn't work on powers. :smallannoyed:

Ooh, thanks, that does make things simpler. Interstellar teleporters ahoy!

As for Permanency, this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/incarnate.htm) should satisfy that problem.

[Cieyrin]

Ooh, thanks, that does make things simpler. Interstellar teleporters ahoy!

As for Permanency, this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/incarnate.htm) should satisfy that problem.

Oh, there's Psionic Permanency, alright. :smallbiggrin:

The only thing I see is Psionic Teleportation Circle isn't listed on Incarnate's table but that's just a matter of comparing to Permanency to determine the correct XP requirement.

[Eldan]

Hmm. From the name and what it lists, it's buff only, though. Still, a nice way to enhance your people, if you find a cheap way to farm XP.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Hmm. From the name and what it lists, it's buff only, though. Still, a nice way to enhance your people, if you find a cheap way to farm XP.

If nothing else, making psionic teleportation circle permanent should be within the reach of reality revision. The only issue then is finding 5K XP per circle, but that can easily be fixed, with the exact method depending on where exactly you want this society to fall on the utopia/dystopia scale.

[Urpriest]

If nothing else, making psionic teleportation circle permanent should be within the reach of reality revision. The only issue then is finding 5K XP per circle, but that can easily be fixed, with the exact method depending on where exactly you want this society to fall on the utopia/dystopia scale.

And really, with that kind of XP expenditure you might as well just make a psionic item/trap. More dispel resistant too.

[Radar]

And really, with that kind of XP expenditure you might as well just make a psionic item/trap. More dispel resistant too.
Which could be produced by Artificers - this sort of a setting might be fitting for them (maybe after you cut a bit of their power - sealing access to arcane and divine spells and related items might be a wise choice).

[Urpriest]

Which could be produced by Artificers - this sort of a setting might be fitting for them (maybe after you cut a bit of their power - sealing access to arcane and divine spells and related items might be a wise choice).

Incidentally, this is something I've had trouble finding out: do Psionic Artificers have access to spells? Reading over the variant it looks like they lose access to spells and only have access to psionics, but I remember the Tier system mentioning that they can be interpreted as having access to both. How does that interpretation work?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

And really, with that kind of XP expenditure you might as well just make a psionic item/trap. More dispel resistant too.

That's the obvious choice (the original Tippyverse runs on magic traps after all) and the most utopian one.


Which could be produced by Artificers - this sort of a setting might be fitting for them (maybe after you cut a bit of their power - sealing access to arcane and divine spells and related items might be a wise choice).

There's a psionic artificer variant in...Magic of Eberron, I think? It already gives up all arcane and divine crafting capabilities for their psionic equivalents.

[Radar]

Incidentally, this is something I've had trouble finding out: do Psionic Artificers have access to spells? Reading over the variant it looks like they lose access to spells and only have access to psionics, but I remember the Tier system mentioning that they can be interpreted as having access to both. How does that interpretation work?
I guess, that since a psionic Artificer can replicate powers of any manifesting class, then the StP Erudite gave them access to all arcae goodies. Since the Erudite can potentially learn divine spells as arcane (i guess it's possible), then the Artificer would get his hands on those too.
In short: no StP Erudite, no access to aracane or divine magic.