Best ways to kill a semi-divine lich

[Demidos]

Hi, this is my first time posting so...
Im playing a high powered campaign where the final battle is against a divine rank 0 lich who is a gestaltic favored soul/dread necro (AKA players=screwed):smalleek:.
The party is all going to be 20th level, and we will have 2-4 or so epic level characters assisting us (epic level cleric, epic level paladin, epic level sorcerer?, and maybe some other people)
THe party is comprised of
1) arcane-hierophant (druid/sorcerer), due to feats only lost 1 level of druid casting and 3 of sorcerer, feats are to get a quickened limited wish, a bonus animal companion (wild cohort) and he has one feat slot open (any suggestions?)
-The dm is using the srd20 monk variant druid that has monk ac (including wisdom to ac) but no wildshape

2) cloistered cleric /radiant servant of pelor with divine metamagic, he can twin spells and so on

3) a truenamer-not the lame kind http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4915339
he can give 2 standard actions per round a a buff and revive people as move actions (yes, i know, its op'ed)

The BBEG we know to have near triple-digit saves for will, and I believe he has charisma to fort, which is really high.


So I guess I'm asking for good strategy tips (especially spells that would work, I'm pretty stumped on this one.) We plan to use a scroll of Mordenkainen's Disjunction at the begging of the battle, but besides that I'm not sure what the best thing from there would be.

[gbprime]

Any chance of finding the Sword of Kas before the fight? I'm sure it would appreciate a good warm-up match. :smalltongue:

[gbprime]

The BBEG we know to have near triple-digit saves for will, and I believe he has charisma to fort, which is really high.


So I guess I'm asking for good strategy tips (especially spells that would work, I'm pretty stumped on this one.) We plan to use a scroll of Mordenkainen's Disjunction at the begging of the battle, but besides that I'm not sure what the best thing from there would be.

The save for Disjunction is will based. a Scroll of it is DC 23. How uber did you say his will saves are? I think it will do... nothing... to him.

You want Antimagic instead. Force him to blow away antimagic and keep cranking it up. Antimagic someone, cast something or whack him then 5 foot step into that antimagic, repeat.

Sunburst is the other spell you want to load up on. Unless that lich has evasion, he's taking damage or spending time counterspelling it. This should be especially effective if he brings undead minions.

See if you can't soak his actions with grapple checks (NPC, Telekinesis, Grasping Hand, Crushing Hand, Empowered if you can.)

[Runestar]

Im playing a high powered campaign where the final battle is against a divine rank 0 lich who is a gestaltic favored soul/dread necro (AKA players=screwed)

Doesn't seem that strong to me. Gestalt doesn't really benefit npcs much (since they still lose out in terms of action economy), favoured soul and dread necro aren't really that strong to start with, while quasi-deity's benefits are dr, max hp and cha mod to AC (worth maybe +1cr at most?).

What lv is the npc? I assume he is getting the lich template for free (courtesy of dread necro). Seems like a weak kyuss clone. If a group of lv20 PCs can take him down (the BBEG of age of worms), your npc should be no problem.

No fighters in your party? They would be perfect for quickly whittling the lich (which should have that much hp, 300+?).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Disintegrate is the spell to use against undead, just saying

[Mando Knight]

Antimagic someone, cast something or whack him then 5 foot step into that antimagic, repeat.
Antimagic is a personal spell. And if it's a divine 0 lich, I wouldn't be surprised if it had some way of penetrating antimagic.

[Demidos]

The save for Disjunction is will based. a Scroll of it is DC 23. How uber did you say his will saves are? I think it will do... nothing... to him.

You want Antimagic instead. Force him to blow away antimagic and keep cranking it up. Antimagic someone, cast something or whack him then 5 foot step into that antimagic, repeat.

Sunburst is the other spell you want to load up on. Unless that lich has evasion, he's taking damage or spending time counterspelling it. This should be especially effective if he brings undead minions.

1) Disjunction gives no save for buffs, only for magic items being destroyed, and if we can debuff him (from say, being shielded (shield other or whatever its called) we can take a huge chunk out of his hp as well as debuffing)

2) I agree with mando here

3) Sunburst will be helpful. The BBEG has a near infinite horde of undead.....which will be present when we fight him (though we get an allied army)



Also, we know 2 of his epic spells. One is a anti-teleport (for his enemies) that covers a citywide area. His own minions are not affected. Another one creates several giant "hands" of force that grab you and move you where he directs, a dc...26? strength check is required to break out of them.

[Gorgondantess]

Surprise your DM and go for his worshipers. If it has DR, it relies on worshipers- if it relies on worshipers, that's an Achilles heel right there.
Also: Welcome to the forums!:smallbiggrin:

[Demidos]

Surprise your DM and go for his worshipers. If it has DR, it relies on worshipers- if it relies on worshipers, that's an Achilles heel right there.
Also: Welcome to the forums!:smallbiggrin:

Its divine rank 0, so it doesnt actually require worshippers to keep its rank

Thank you!

[bannable]

1) Disjunction gives no save for buffs, only for magic items being destroyed, and if we can debuff him (from say, being shielded (shield other or whatever its called) we can take a huge chunk out of his hp as well as debuffing)

2) I agree with mando here

3) Sunburst will be helpful. The BBEG has a near infinite horde of undead.....

You might try a 1-2-3 combo. That is to say, targeted greater dispel magic, disjunction, disintegrate. By using the dispel before disjunction you have a chance to side-step something like spell-turning or the such, with the disjunction getting rid of anything else that survives, and you finish him with the bane of all undead.

I mean, Sunburst is nice and all, but I'll take 40d6 targetting an undead's Fort over that any day...

Edit: GDM, not normal...

[Demidos]

Doesn't seem that strong to me. Gestalt doesn't really benefit npcs much (since they still lose out in terms of action economy), favoured soul and dread necro aren't really that strong to start with, while quasi-deity's benefits are dr, max hp and cha mod to AC (worth maybe +1cr at most?).

What lv is the npc? I assume he is getting the lich template for free (courtesy of dread necro). Seems like a weak kyuss clone. If a group of lv20 PCs can take him down (the BBEG of age of worms), your npc should be no problem.

No fighters in your party? They would be perfect for quickly whittling the lich (which should have that much hp, 300+?).

Dread necro's are the DM's favorite class, and he can make one pretty deadly. e.g. Have you ever heard of shivering touch? -3d6 dex, it can take out a hydra, or just about any dragon (10 dex) in one attack, and i think its a 3rd or 4th level spell. Combine with spectral hand and....
I dont know much about favored soul.
The lich is level 21, so he has (duh) epic spellcasting, we dont know much else about him

From what i can tell (i looked up kyuss online) i didnt find the stats, but i found the description of the battle, and it seems the PC's had very strong artifacts

[Demidos]

You might try a 1-2-3 combo. That is to say, targeted greater dispel magic, disjunction, disintegrate. By using the dispel before disjunction you have a chance to side-step something like spell-turning or the such, with the disjunction getting rid of anything else that survives, and you finish him with the bane of all undead.

I mean, Sunburst is nice and all, but I'll take 40d6 targetting an undead's Fort over that any day...

Edit: GDM, not normal...

Targeted dispel magic can be reflected by spell turning, mordenkainen's cant (because its an area spell)

The charisma to AC thing is only for divine rank 1 or above. However, the DM has told us that his touch AC is somewhere very high (around 65-75 id assume) which would be very hard to hit with a disintegrate....

[BeholderSlayer]

Plane Shift to positive energy plane.
Gate the baddy to you.
Lock him in with Dimensional Lock
Get him stuck with Forcecage
Watch him die!!!

I'm not sure it'll win, necessarily, but was the first thing I came up with in 30 seconds and not reading the whole thread.

[Demidos]

Plane Shift to positive energy plane.
Gate the baddy to you.
Lock him in with Dimensional Lock
Get him stuck with Forcecage
Watch him die!!!

I'm not sure it'll win, necessarily, but was the first thing I came up with in 30 seconds and not reading the whole thread.

1)Gate is banned
2) ....enough said
thanks for the suggestion though :smallsmile:

[Keinnicht]

Not to make things more complicated, but killing him is the EASY part.

Any Lich that nutso is going to have the most insanely hard to destroy phylactery in world history.

I recommend finding a totally hostile, out of the way extraplanar environment, and leaving it there.

Assuming you don't already know how to destroy it.


1)Gate is banned

Excuse me? Your DM appears to be the definition of a munchkin, yet he banned this spell for his players?

[BeholderSlayer]

Not to make things more complicated, but killing him is the EASY part.

Any Lich that nutso is going to have the most insanely hard to destroy phylactery in world history.

I recommend finding a totally hostile, out of the way extraplanar environment, and leaving it there.

Assuming you don't already know how to destroy it.
Yeah, this guy's probably right. Maybe prep a Trap the Soul gem with Misdirection and Sympathy, and slip this guy a mickey? No SR, no save, just die.


Excuse me? Your DM appears to be the definition of a munchkin, yet he banned this spell for his players?
This made me lol.

[herrhauptmann]

Also, we know 2 of his epic spells. One is a anti-teleport (for his enemies) that covers a citywide area. His own minions are not affected. Another one creates several giant "hands" of force that grab you and move you where he directs, a dc...26? strength check is required to break out of them.

Are you sure that second one is an epic spell, and not just a Bigby Hand spell metamagiced past 9th level somehow?
If he's level 21, he should only have 2 epic spells. I'm pretty sure if he wanted to have epic divine, and epic arcane spells, he'd have to take the feat "Epic Spellcasting" twice. But if he did take it twice, he could have 2 epic divines, and 2 epic arcane spells.
Unless he's somehow got 30 ranks in spellcraft and know:arcana/religion, then it'd be 3 each.

Don't forget, once you've killed him, you gotta track down his phylactery and destroy it. If you don't, (1) he'll be back shortly, (2)be royally pissed, (3) be ready for whatever tactic you used against him last time.

[Demidos]

Not to make things more complicated, but killing him is the EASY part.

Any Lich that nutso is going to have the most insanely hard to destroy phylactery in world history.

I recommend finding a totally hostile, out of the way extraplanar environment, and leaving it there.

Assuming you don't already know how to destroy it.



Excuse me? Your DM appears to be the definition of a munchkin, yet he banned this spell for his players?

Our DM...yeah, maybe, but he doesn't use anything that he banned for us himself.
About the phylactery though, he claims he's going to give us a hint about how to find/destroy it. Once we kill the lich, we become divine rank 0, and epic level, and i believe the campaign is supposed to be over. We all get heka stuff (free) at 21st level (like awaken elder treants, no xp cost), so the game is pretty much over.

[Demidos]

Are you sure that second one is an epic spell, and not just a Bigby Hand spell metamagiced past 9th level somehow?
If he's level 21, he should only have 2 epic spells. I'm pretty sure if he wanted to have epic divine, and epic arcane spells, he'd have to take the feat "Epic Spellcasting" twice. But if he did take it twice, he could have 2 epic divines, and 2 epic arcane spells.
Unless he's somehow got 30 ranks in spellcraft and know:arcana/religion, then it'd be 3 each.

Don't forget, once you've killed him, you gotta track down his phylactery and destroy it. If you don't, (1) he'll be back shortly, (2)be royally pissed, (3) be ready for whatever tactic you used against him last time.

I think he only has 2. The DM invented the Bigby one on the spot to stop us from escaping (it was an important plot point (i guess) and it didnt kill us, just held us in place for a couple rounds so that the BBEG's lieuteinant could come up (plus, it means that thats his second epic spell, which is alot better (for us) than it could be)

[Demidos]

Yeah, this guy's probably right. Maybe prep a Trap the Soul gem with Misdirection and Sympathy, and slip this guy a mickey? No SR, no save, just die.


This made me lol.

That might have worked...but again, his will save is probably at least +40-80 (or more)
(for the sympathy and misdirection spells)
also, sympathy is mind-affecting (undead are immune)

[BeholderSlayer]

That might have worked...but again, his will save is probably at least +40-80 (or more)

When you use prep the soul gem and the target touches it, they are affected by Trap the Soul with NO SAVE and NO SR. It's specifically in the spell description.

BAh, you edited it too fast. The will save won't matter about misdirection, because he still won't know exactly what the object is. Combine that with Nystul's Magic Aura to obfuscate Detect Magic/Arcane Sight.

[Seerow]

Excuse me? Your DM appears to be the definition of a munchkin, yet he banned this spell for his players?


The guy is using Dread Necro/Favored Soul. Sure he's using Gestalt, but that's about the most munchkiny thing I see in this.



That said, I don't agree with the DM giving several NPCs that are higher level than the party 'to help out'. This really to me screams a DM wanting to play out a story, and have a few people around to watch.

[Demidos]

When you use prep the soul gem and the target touches it, they are affected by Trap the Soul with NO SAVE and NO SR. It's specifically in the spell description.

i edited what i said before
for sympathy

[BeholderSlayer]

i edited what i said before
for sympathy

yep. i edited again too. grrrrrr :smalltongue:

Then you'll just have to convince him that it's something he wants....

[Demidos]

The guy is using Dread Necro/Favored Soul. Sure he's using Gestalt, but that's about the most munchkiny thing I see in this.



That said, I don't agree with the DM giving several NPCs that are higher level than the party 'to help out'. This really to me screams a DM wanting to play out a story, and have a few people around to watch.

1) not trying to sound snobby or something, but i need specific strategies...

2) depending on how optimized he made them, the party is probably stronger than them. The party gets some artifacts that help somewhat, but none has a specific...power, they just boost stats and druid animal companion, thats why i didnt mention them

[gbprime]

Antimagic is a personal spell.

So? There's about a dozen ways to get around this. For example, the arcane heirophant can cast it on his familiar/companion instead.... which at that level could very well be a dire bear.

EDIT - artifact that enhances animal companion? Does that function through the antimagic? :smallamused:

[Demidos]

So? There's about a dozen ways to get around this. For example, the arcane heirophant can cast it on his familiar/companion instead.... which at that level could very well be a dire bear.

EDIT - artifact that enhances animal companion? Does that function through the antimagic? :smallamused:

true.......hmmmmmm. Yes it does

[gbprime]

Well there you go. A buffed druid companion with antimagic. Does it like to gnaw on bones? :smallcool:

[Demidos]

Well there you go. A buffed druid companion with antimagic. Does it like to gnaw on bones? :smallcool:

I think his name just changed to Bonecruncher:smallamused:

Thanks guys.

[Amiel]

One method would be to find a way to entrap it somehow.
Obtain a decanter of endless water.
Consecrate or bless the decanter and dump the entire contents on the lich.

Another would be force it into the Positive Energy Plane.
Preferably, and ideally, such a trip would be one-way.

[Myth]

2) cloistered cleric /radiant servant of pelor with divine metamagic, he can twin spells and so on


When in doubt... Miracle, Miracle, Miracle! Pelor hates undead. Also asking if we have heard of Shivering Touch is just.. well you'll read more posts here and you'll understand :smallbiggrin:

[Demidos]

When in doubt... Miracle, Miracle, Miracle! Pelor hates undead. Also asking if we have heard of Shivering Touch is just.. well you'll read more posts here and you'll understand :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately only non-XP miracles are allowed :smallsigh: But yes, theyre already being spammed:smallbiggrin:

[Demidos]

One method would be to find a way to entrap it somehow.
Obtain a decanter of endless water.
Consecrate or bless the decanter and dump the entire contents on the lich.

Another would be force it into the Positive Energy Plane.
Preferably, and ideally, such a trip would be one-way.

Holy Water does....2d6?

Any suggestions on how to do that? Im pretty dang sure he has planeshift though, seeing as he's an epic level favored soul......I dont know much about them, but if they have cleric spells....miracle and boom, he's out of there

[Amiel]

Holy Water does....2d6?

According to the SRD, holy water deals 2d4 points of damage to undead or evil outsiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#holyWater). The description explains that the damage dealt to the creatures is almost as if it were an acid. Extrapolating from this, immersion within the fluid probably deals 10d6 points of damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#acidEffects) each round (if we considered it akin to an acid environmental effect) or 20d6 points of damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#lavaEffects) (akin to total immersion within lava). I'd go with the latter as holy water deals substantially more damage than acid.
Actually, since acid deals 1d6 damage normally and 10d6 in case of total immersion and lava deals 2d6 damage normally and 20d6 in total immersion, holy water should and would deal 20d4 points of damage in total immersion.


Any suggestions on how to do that? Im pretty dang sure he has planeshift though, seeing as he's an epic level favored soul......I dont know much about them, but if they have cleric spells....miracle and boom, he's out of there

You'll probably need to first entrap the lich in a forcecage or similar epic magic effect. Others would include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, since DvR 0 does not grant immunity to such.
I would also recommend dimensional lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm). Hopefully your allies will assist you in that regard, they could duplicate an epic-level iteration of the spells.

[Welknair]

Did you find Acerak?

[*.*.*.*]

You'll probably need to first entrap the lich in a forcecage or similar epic magic effect. Others would include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul,



Magic Immunity (Ex)

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.

I can't help but think that those spells won't work

[Amiel]

I can't help but think that those spells won't work

Is it a demilich though? All we know currently is that it's a divine rank 0 lich.

[*.*.*.*]

Is it a demilich though? All we know currently is that it's a divine rank 0 lich.

....Fair enough, I have no idea where I got the demilich thing from.

[boraellas]

Are you sure that second one is an epic spell, and not just a Bigby Hand spell metamagiced past 9th level somehow?
If he's level 21, he should only have 2 epic spells. I'm pretty sure if he wanted to have epic divine, and epic arcane spells, he'd have to take the feat "Epic Spellcasting" twice. But if he did take it twice, he could have 2 epic divines, and 2 epic arcane spells.
Unless he's somehow got 30 ranks in spellcraft and know:arcana/religion, then it'd be 3 each.

Don't forget, once you've killed him, you gotta track down his phylactery and destroy it. If you don't, (1) he'll be back shortly, (2)be royally pissed, (3) be ready for whatever tactic you used against him last time.

I think you can have an unlimited amount of epic spells but you can only cast (Knowledge ranks /10) a day.

Also for the bigsby's grasping hand epic spell that sounds really really weak for an epic spell. I think that your DM might have that spell do something else or he will add some extra boost to it to make powerful.

Also how high is his touch ac? Do you know? Because whatever his touch ac is that means his regular ac will be probably much higher and your super artifact buffed bears might not be able to attack him. You might want to have a back up in case that doesn't work.

Might I suggest Iceberg from Frostburn. Your DM likes shivering touch so he has to allow it. It can bury someone in snow and ice for no save and no spell resistance. Normally this wouldn't be a good 9th level spell but if you have your animal run up next to him and then bury him then he can't ghost-form out or similar spell. Not sure if its 9th druid or cleric but I know its 9th wizard and sorcerer.

Also something to note. It seems odd that he used gestalt for dread necromancer and favored soul. The only possible benefit I can see with that is that they are both charisma based casters (well favored soul is a weird wisdom/charisma thing but close enough) also with that high of fort and will save he might have something along the lines of dips for Paladin of Slaughter, Blackguard, or hexblade (Or all three!!!) for massive save boosts. Also if he has that be ready for a ring of evasion. If he has a huge reflex save from 3 times his casting stat to reflex than he will want evasion.

[Alleine]

Another would be force it into the Positive Energy Plane.
Preferably, and ideally, such a trip would be one-way.

I'd like to point out that this doesn't actually work, as little sense as that makes. The positive energy plane doesn't actually deal positive energy damage. What it does do is grant fast healing that can over heal you. And if you're a creature the extra HP will eventually make you explode. However, it's a fort save, and liches won't have to make it since it specifies creatures only, not objects. So gating a lich to the positive energy plane actually makes it harder to kill. :P

[Demidos]

....Fair enough, I have no idea where I got the demilich thing from.

Wow, lots of replies:smallbiggrin:!

Its not a demilich. I know that, becuase the DM was pointing out how screwed we would be if it was. Also, its not a floating skull.:smallbiggrin:

Lets see, we also know that its a (correction) Gesaltic sorcerer (specializing in necromancy)/ favored soul, that is primarily a melee dude

[Demidos]

I think you can have an unlimited amount of epic spells but you can only cast (Knowledge ranks /10) a day.

Also for the bigsby's grasping hand epic spell that sounds really really weak for an epic spell. I think that your DM might have that spell do something else or he will add some extra boost to it to make powerful.

Also how high is his touch ac? Do you know? Because whatever his touch ac is that means his regular ac will be probably much higher and your super artifact buffed bears might not be able to attack him. You might want to have a back up in case that doesn't work.

Might I suggest Iceberg from Frostburn. Your DM likes shivering touch so he has to allow it. It can bury someone in snow and ice for no save and no spell resistance. Normally this wouldn't be a good 9th level spell but if you have your animal run up next to him and then bury him then he can't ghost-form out or similar spell. Not sure if its 9th druid or cleric but I know its 9th wizard and sorcerer.

Also something to note. It seems odd that he used gestalt for dread necromancer and favored soul. The only possible benefit I can see with that is that they are both charisma based casters (well favored soul is a weird wisdom/charisma thing but close enough) also with that high of fort and will save he might have something along the lines of dips for Paladin of Slaughter, Blackguard, or hexblade (Or all three!!!) for massive save boosts. Also if he has that be ready for a ring of evasion. If he has a huge reflex save from 3 times his casting stat to reflex than he will want evasion.

Yeah, but the radius on the iceberg spell is kinda big, isnt it?

Oh, and my Dm just reminded me today that apparently every time i kill something with my artifact, all enemies within a 30 foot radius are "entangled" and have to make a DC (my caster level) str check to break free......SOMEHOW I FORGOT (i feel so stupid).....yeah:smallmad:

So for iceberg, wouldnt it be hard for the bears to hit him? if he's buried?

[herrhauptmann]

Might I suggest Iceberg from Frostburn. Your DM likes shivering touch so he has to allow it. It can bury someone in snow and ice for no save and no spell resistance. Normally this wouldn't be a good 9th level spell but if you have your animal run up next to him and then bury him then he can't ghost-form out or similar spell. Not sure if its 9th druid or cleric but I know its 9th wizard and sorcerer.

Sounds like a great spell, but the DM using Shivering touch doesn't require he allow everything from frostburn.
Do you mean the bears should grapple and get encased with the lich? Otherwise, I don't think being next to him would really do anything but possibly kill off the bear (depending if iceberg does damage)

[Demidos]

Sounds like a great spell, but the DM using Shivering touch doesn't require he allow everything from frostburn.
Do you mean the bears should grapple and get encased with the lich? Otherwise, I don't think being next to him would really do anything but possibly kill off the bear (depending if iceberg does damage)

He does. He's pretty confident about his optomizing abilities (rightfully), and as long as we dont use cheese (or dragon magazine) its ok:smallannoyed:

yes, that was my point with the bears:smallfrown:

[Amiel]

I'd like to point out that this doesn't actually work, as little sense as that makes. The positive energy plane doesn't actually deal positive energy damage. What it does do is grant fast healing that can over heal you. And if you're a creature the extra HP will eventually make you explode. However, it's a fort save, and liches won't have to make it since it specifies creatures only, not objects. So gating a lich to the positive energy plane actually makes it harder to kill. :P

Which is all rather sad, really. The positive energy plane, as the origin and terminus of positive energy, should channel such great quantities of the energy into diametrically opposed entities that undead creatures explode from sheer contact.

You could, however, find a way to dimensionally or temporally lock the lich into the Positive Energy Plane, such that it has no other recourse but to take damage from its over-length of stay.

[herrhauptmann]

You could, however, find a way to dimensionally or temporally lock the lich into the Positive Energy Plane, such that it has no other recourse but to take damage from its over-length of stay.

Question about the negative energy plane:
It deals damage to living things taht enter without protection, right? What about undead who are on the plane. Do they get healed by that effect?
If so, then by the fact they're intended to be complete opposites, I'd say if undead are healed/repaired on the negative energy while living are wounded, then living are healed/repaired on the positive energy while undead are wounded. Which is pretty much as other people assume it works.

[Demidos]

Question about the negative energy plane:
It deals damage to living things taht enter without protection, right? What about undead who are on the plane. Do they get healed by that effect?
If so, then by the fact they're intended to be complete opposites, I'd say if undead are healed/repaired on the negative energy while living are wounded, then living are healed/repaired on the positive energy while undead are wounded. Which is pretty much as other people assume it works.

Yes. But lets face it. In this particular encounter, if he doesnt make the will save DC, he rolled a one. And i might as well have used some other save or die.

[Demidos]

Ok, the final battle will probably be before christmas. Any last minute suggestions?

Im also slightly concerned about the cleric (in the party, not the epic level one) He doesnt seem to have much chioce of spells. I know clerics vs. undead are supposed to be insane, but, ive only played druids:smalltongue:, so is there any ideas on good cleric feats/items/spells? I can probably convince the DM to allow changes, as the player feels a bit underpowered:smallfrown:. A concise, say, top 10 things to use list would be appreciated. Also I was thinking i could convince him (the cleric) to act as a counterspeller. good idea? And can anyone actually explain counterspelling (or give the PHB pg #)?:smalltongue:

Thanks

[herrhauptmann]

He needs the feat Divine Metamagic, and nightsticks. Lots of nightsticks.
Now he can use the extra turning attempts of the nightsticks to fuel his metamagics.
An empowered maximized 9th level spell, at level 20? Sure! However, DMM: Persist is the most common one. Now buff spells last literally all day.

What domains does he have? A cleric with the sun domain is enough to make undead cry. Especially if he's a radiant servant. If he's also got levels in Sacred Exorcist, he's surrounded by a Consecrate aura, so his turning just got that much more awesome.

[Supercomputers]

Ok, the final battle will probably be before christmas. Any last minute suggestions?

Im also slightly concerned about the cleric (in the party, not the epic level one) He doesnt seem to have much chioce of spells. I know clerics vs. undead are supposed to be insane, but, ive only played druids:smalltongue:, so is there any ideas on good cleric feats/items/spells? I can probably convince the DM to allow changes, as the player feels a bit underpowered:smallfrown:. A concise, say, top 10 things to use list would be appreciated. Also I was thinking i could convince him (the cleric) to act as a counterspeller. good idea? And can anyone actually explain counterspelling (or give the PHB pg #)?:smalltongue:

Thanks

page 170

Basically, the cleric readies an action, then, when the lich casts the cleric makes a spellcraft check (DC 15+spell level), if he secedes he casts the same spell and the two spells negate.

[Kansaschaser]

Here are my two cents. Actually, here are my two spell suggestioins since it sounds like you will be going up again evil undead. Both spells are from the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Blinding Glory
Conjuration (Creation) [Good]
Level: Glory 9, Sorcerer/Wizard 9
Components: V,S,M/DF
Casting Time: 1 hour
Duration: 1 hour/level
Area: 100ft/level radius spread, centered on you
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Effect: Evil-aligned creatures are blinded within this light. The light counters and dispels all forms of magical darkness. No darkness spell can counter this spell.

Celestial Brilliance
Evocation [Good, Light]
Level: Cleric 4, Glory 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 4
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Object touched
Duration: 1 day/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Effect: Bright light within 60 feet of the touched object. Dim light for another 60 feet. Undead creatures within 60 feet take 1d6 points of damage each round. Evil outsiders and undead that are specifically harmed by sunlight take 2d6 points of damage each round.

You only need one or two people to cast Blinding Glory. But have everyone possible in your party make items of Celestial Brilliance. Since there is no save and no spell resistance, it's gauranteed to cause damage and f'up undead, even divine ones. If you have 30 items with Celestial Brilliance, you could be causing undead 30d6 damage every round just for staying in the light.

[Demidos]

He needs the feat Divine Metamagic, and nightsticks. Lots of nightsticks.
Now he can use the extra turning attempts of the nightsticks to fuel his metamagics.
An empowered maximized 9th level spell, at level 20? Sure! However, DMM: Persist is the most common one. Now buff spells last literally all day.

What domains does he have? A cleric with the sun domain is enough to make undead cry. Especially if he's a radiant servant. If he's also got levels in Sacred Exorcist, he's surrounded by a Consecrate aura, so his turning just got that much more awesome.

Sorry, i dont really know his character.....actually, cool, i have his character sheet:smallbiggrin: hehe.Ok, he has extra turning and DMM and easy MM and practiced MM Imbued healing, MM focus and Twin spell (im not sure why he has the MM decreaser things (i assume theyre all for twin spell (if thats what they are, druids and metamagic...eh))
He's missing then i guess....um....2 for flaws if hes human? (Unless imbued healing is free for radiant servants of pelor)

I Believe he has healing and sun? Is healing a domain? If not, its good or strength. Wait, actually i seem to remember sometihng about him have good, healing, AND sun? He didnt use a feat for it, but im not sure.

his character sheet say 6 levels cleric, 10 of RSP, but we're level 18, so im not sure what his last 2 levels are:smallannoyed:

Im not sure what our DM ruled about nightsticks

[Demidos]

page 170

Basically, the cleric readies an action, then, when the lich casts the cleric makes a spellcraft check (DC 15+spell level), if he secedes he casts the same spell and the two spells negate.

doesnt he need to have the same spell? i mean, i guess miracle helps with that, but isnt it still...hard?:smallconfused:

[Demidos]

Here are my two cents. Actually, here are my two spell suggestioins since it sounds like you will be going up again evil undead. Both spells are from the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Blinding Glory
Conjuration (Creation) [Good]
Level: Glory 9, Sorcerer/Wizard 9
Components: V,S,M/DF
Casting Time: 1 hour
Duration: 1 hour/level
Area: 100ft/level radius spread, centered on you
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Effect: Evil-aligned creatures are blinded within this light. The light counters and dispels all forms of magical darkness. No darkness spell can counter this spell.

Celestial Brilliance
Evocation [Good, Light]
Level: Cleric 4, Glory 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 4
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Object touched
Duration: 1 day/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Effect: Bright light within 60 feet of the touched object. Dim light for another 60 feet. Undead creatures within 60 feet take 1d6 points of damage each round. Evil outsiders and undead that are specifically harmed by sunlight take 2d6 points of damage each round.

You only need one or two people to cast Blinding Glory. But have everyone possible in your party make items of Celestial Brilliance. Since there is no save and no spell resistance, it's gauranteed to cause damage and f'up undead, even divine ones. If you have 30 items with Celestial Brilliance, you could be causing undead 30d6 damage every round just for staying in the light.

Cool, thanks, i like blinding glory (is it worth it if i have 17 level sorcerer casting (1 9th level spell known, right) instead of like, timestop (or reaving dispel or something)?).

EDIT: wait, 1 hour cast time, and all evil creatures?:smallfrown:But some of our epic level allies are evil:smallfrown: Its a "kill the biggest threat" plan

Ive seen the celestial brilliance one, but are you sure they stack?



BTW: Boss update: hes an aoe debuffer of some sort.
Fell drain maybe?