[3.5] Binder/Warlock theurge by RAW

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

If I was looking to make a Binder/Warlock character, with Invocations and Binding as high level as possible by 20, what would be the best combo? Anima Mage would advance both, but you need arcane spells to enter.

I know there is a couple of homebrew Binder/Warlock theurge PrCs around (I've been working on one myself), but in this case I'm looking for a RAW legal answer.

Wizard 3/Binder 1/Warlock 1/AM 10/Legacy Champion 5 gets lvl 15 binding and invocations...but I'm sure someone can pump it higher than that? Is there any way to enter Anima Mage only using Warlock and Binder?

Cheers - T

[Boci]

Heightened spell to qualify for AM with just 1 level of wizard. It cheesy, but this isn't really abusing that trick.

[true_shinken]

Hm, Magical Training + Precocious Aprentice, perhaps?

[Flickerdart]

Heightened spell to qualify for AM with just 1 level of wizard. It cheesy, but this isn't really abusing that trick.
You can't Heighten spells that you can't cast, you'd need Sanctum Spell or similar. A Bard 1 dip with Talfirian Song also works (as you can cast 4th level Illusion spells) but you have to be Human.

[Boci]

You can't Heighten spells that you can't cast, you'd need Sanctum Spell or similar. A Bard 1 dip with Talfirian Song also works (as you can cast 4th level Illusion spells) but you have to be Human.

I'm pretty sure there's some combo involving heighten spell that allows early entry.

[true_shinken]

I'm pretty sure there's some combo involving heighten spell that allows early entry.

Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell in classes like Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necromancer, most likely.

[Godskook]

Precocious apprentice would work all on its own, iirc.

[Boci]

Precocious apprentice would work all on its own, iirc.

The only possible problem is that precocious apprentice grants you a single 2nd level spell, and the preqs says spells.

[Quietus]

The only possible problem is that precocious apprentice grants you a single 2nd level spell, and the preqs says spells.

In my experience, DMs come in two flavors as it regards Precocious Apprentice early entries : Either they say it works, and that the "spell/spells" dichotomy is stupid, or they say it doesn't.. and in that second group, a fair number still consider that separation to be a bit pedantic, and simply ban early entry for balance reasons. I'd rather people who don't want to see early entry shenanigans step up and say so, than try and hide behind foolish pedantry.

[Psyren]

The only possible problem is that precocious apprentice grants you a single 2nd level spell, and the preqs says spells.

There's already a thread on this ridiculous debate. Yes the PrCs say "spells" but they don't specify UNIQUE spells. By that reading, sorcerers don't qualify either when they only get one 2nd-level spell.

[Boci]

In my experience, DMs come in two flavors as it regards Precocious Apprentice early entries : Either they say it works, and that the "spell/spells" dichotomy is stupid, or they say it doesn't.. and in that second group, a fair number still consider that separation to be a bit pedantic, and simply ban early entry for balance reasons. I'd rather people who don't want to see early entry shenanigans step up and say so, than try and hide behind foolish pedantry.

I dunno, to me this is a border line case. Its certainly quite a close reading of RAW, but to claim that holding up the distinction between singular and plural as "foolish pedantry" is a bit much. Personally I would allow it, but I can see a RAW focused group insisting it doesn't work.

[true_shinken]

I dunno, to me this is a border line case. Its certainly quite a close reading of RAW, but to claim that holding up the distinction between singular and plural as "foolish pedantry" is a bit much. Personally I would allow it, but I can see a RAW focused group insisting it doesn't work.

But it doesn't make sense. Precocious Aprentice limits you to a single known 2nd level spell. Nowhere does it say you have to cast the same spell twice in the same day, so it can only be about spells known not the number of spell slots.
This means a Sorcerer 4 will never qualify for anything that requires the casting of 2nd level spells (like, say, Mystic Theurge). Do you really think that's how it's supposed to work? That's very very silly.
Im with Quietus on this one - either you accept it as early entry cheese or you say 'no, it doesn't work'. Hell, even use the silly explanation from the Sage, even that is better than 'you just know one spell, you can't qualify'.

[Boci]

But it doesn't make sense. Precocious Aprentice limits you to a single known 2nd level spell. Nowhere does it say you have to cast the same spell twice in the same day, so it can only be about spells known not the number of spell slots.
This means a Sorcerer 4 will never qualify for anything that requires the casting of 2nd level spells (like, say, Mystic Theurge). Do you really think that's how it's supposed to work? That's very very silly.

You're now talking about RAI, not RAW. *Points at thread title* Its a very close reading, but it is the most literal, so I thought it should at least be mentioned. (A sorceror could qualify if they had a +1 MM feat.)


Im with Quietus on this one - either you accept it as early entry cheese or you say 'no, it doesn't work'. Hell, even use the silly explanation from the Sage, even that is better than 'you just know one spell, you can't qualify'.

I agree, but others don't.

[true_shinken]

You're now talking about RAI, not RAW. *Points at thread title* Its a very close reading, but it is the most literal, so I thought it should at least be mentioned. (A sorceror could qualify if they had a +1 MM feat.)

Not really. The most literal reading says 'spells', right? With Precocious Aprentice you can cast 2nd level spells - you just need two days. RAW, it never says '2nd level spells on the same day', does it?

[Psyren]

Not really. The most literal reading says 'spells', right? With Precocious Aprentice you can cast 2nd level spells - you just need two days. RAW, it never says '2nd level spells on the same day', does it?

Precisely. When people want to argue literal RAW, they can never accept when it becomes a double-edged sword.

[Boci]

Precisely. When people want to argue literal RAW, they can never accept when it becomes a double-edged sword.

Except when they do.

[Jukebox Hero]

You could take levels in hellfire warlock, then bind the soul that allows you to heal ability damage at an accelerated rate.

[Psyren]

Except when they do.

Now who said I was referring to you? :smallwink:

[Boci]

Now who said I was referring to you? :smallwink:

Given that never is an absolute...always remember to never say always or never...wait, dam.

[Thurbane]

So, going back ontopic for a minute:

Dread Necomancer 1 (with Versatile Spellcaster & Heighten Spell)/Warlock 1/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/Legacy Champion 6/Warlock 1 would get 16th level Binding and 17th level invocations.

[avr]

Isn't there an Improved Binding feat which lets you bind vestiges as if you were 2 levels higher? That should give you access to all the vestiges, though I think your effective binder level for other purposes would still be 16 by level 20.

[DueceEsMachine]

I was thinking of something similar, though I'm not sure if this is quite right.

Anima mage specifically says that your soul binding ability increases as though you had gained a level in binder, so how does that work with Bind Vestige and Improved Bind vestige?

They give you an effective Binder level of 5, but only for binding vestiges, okay, but then does soul binding stack with that? I would say yes, since it doesn't grant any other Binder abilities and specifically increases your binder level.

Okay, so Arcane Caster 1, (I like the pathfinder Sorcerer, since you get the metamagic feat free) with either little loop for early spellcasting, Bind Vestige and Improved bind vestige, so you're looking at 4 feats needed to get into Anima Mage @ lv. 2.

Now, since there isn't any way that I know of to treat invocations as spells, just take a level in Warlock. Nothing says the Anima Mage spellcasting has to be applied to the class that you meet the spellcasting with.

So, Sorcerer 1/Warlock 1/ Anima Mage 10, then use something like legacy Champion to further the Anima mage to 18. Should give you just about everything you want.

Binder level 23, and Warlock 19, right?

Edit: Now that I think about it, the argument can be made that the soul binding ability says it increases your binder level, so it effectively cancels out the Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige feat, since those specifically say that if you gain a level in binder, they cease to function, but in that case, your binder level would end up being somewhere around an 18.

Either that or the universe would cease to exist because of the endless paradox. You have the feats, you meet the prerequisites, you gain the level.
Gaining the level makes the feats not function, and therefore you don't meet the prerequisites, meaning the feats do work, so you gain the level.... and so on.

Yeah, it's silly, but I'm in a silly mood, and strictly speaking, a Dm could rule that way.

[Urpriest]

Don't suppose Nosomatic Chirurgeon would be useful for this idea? It seems the standard workaround for giving spells to warlocks.

[DueceEsMachine]

I don't really know - that's not a class I'm familiar with. What book is it in?

Okay - I see, the pestilent touch, or whatever. Huh. I have the book, and for whatever reason I've always skipped past that class. interesting.

Well, regardless, you'd have to be level 5 before taking the first level of the class, and it would require another feat and being a halfling. It could work though.

[dextercorvia]

Don't suppose Nosomatic Chirurgeon would be useful for this idea? It seems the standard workaround for giving spells to warlocks.

IIRC, that comes on board a rather late to be of use in this circumstance. Magical Training+Precocious Apprentice is my favorite way of getting Warlocks into Arcane PrC's

[Urpriest]

I don't really know - that's not a class I'm familiar with. What book is it in?

Dragonmarked.

Without skill cheese it can't be entered before 5th level, so it's not ideal, but it would let a character gain the maximum levels of warlock from this sort of build.

[DueceEsMachine]

Magical Training and Precocious apprentice would work, for sure - so that would still be four feats at first level, five if you include the requirements for a metamagic feat, hm. let me look over the book again. one second.

Edit: Yeah, that would totall work - level 1 Binder, with Improved Binding, and lv. 1 warlock with those two feats, plus a metamagic feat of your choice and you're in like sin.

[dextercorvia]

Magical Training and Precocious apprentice would work, for sure - so that would still be four feats at first level, five if you include the requirements for a metamagic feat, hm. let me look over the book again. one second.

Only 4. Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, Metamagic (Probably a Sudden so you can actually use it), Improved Binding (the other is wasteful)

If flaws are allowed this works.

Binder1/Warlock1/AnimaMage10/LegacyChampion8

[DueceEsMachine]

Yep, you're absolutely right there boss. so you'd end up being lv. 17 in both of them. not too shabby.