CA Ninja- adding psionics?

[SylvanPrincess]

just curious, many of you responded to my psionic warblade thread, im curious what your thoughts are about adding a psionic power list(the psychic warrior list perhaps) to the complete adventurer ninja? would it make it overpowered? it seems underpowered right now, should anything be traded out to make it fair?

[FishAreWet]

Not overpowered. CA Ninja is terrible. But it begs the question, why not just play a Swordsage?

[SylvanPrincess]

Not overpowered. CA Ninja is terrible. But it begs the question, why not just play a Swordsage?

because the dm doesnt like maneuvers :(

[Boci]

You can compare it to the psychic rogue: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b to make sure you're not making anything overpowered. (As in, don't make it too much more powerful than that, not that it is overpowered.)

[Grynning]

You can compare it to the psychic rogue: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b to make sure you're not making anything overpowered. (As in, don't make it too much more powerful than that, not that it is overpowered.)

I was gonna plug psychic rogue myself, I love that class. It's a better ninja than a ninja in many ways.

[Psyren]

I think Ninjas should be psionic anyway, just like Monks were supposed to be. I was already working on a Ninja rewrite that combined the Psyrogue and Lurk classes, and reflavored the various "augments" into "jutsus". It's nowhere near complete though :smalltongue:

As a quick and dirty fix I would take the Lurk chassis (i.e. proficiencies and power progression), give it the Psyrogue's class features (sneak attack, skills + trapfinding,) skim through XPH and CPsi for anymore ninja-ish powers to add to the list and call it a day.

[Fizban]

Take Psychic Rogue, switch class ability list with Ninja, done. The Psychic Ninja can even keep their full 9d6 sudden strike, cause it's worse than sneak attack.

[true_shinken]

I think Ninjas should be psionic anyway, just like Monks were supposed to be. I was already working on a Ninja rewrite that combined the Psyrogue and Lurk classes, and reflavored the various "augments" into "jutsus". It's nowhere near complete though :smalltongue:

I disagree, really. Monk is all about inner power, the workings of ki internally and stuff - psionics fit it perfecty -, but the Ninja's iconic abilities (that no D&D class actually translates :smallsigh:) are more akin to arcane magic. You even have kuji-kiri as somatic components!
I think a good Ninja chassis should be a Spellthief; just trade the minor abilities for a "ninja path" (say, one "path" would give you unarmed combat bonuses as per the monk, another would give you bonus combat feats, othe would give you a bonus to movement skills - akin to Pathfinder's Rogue Talents) and it should work.

[Hanuman]

I disagree, really. Monk is all about inner power, the workings of ki internally and stuff - psionics fit it perfecty -, but the Ninja's iconic abilities (that no D&D class actually translates :smallsigh:) are more akin to arcane magic. You even have kuji-kiri as somatic components!
I think a good Ninja chassis should be a Spellthief; just trade the minor abilities for a "ninja path" (say, one "path" would give you unarmed combat bonuses as per the monk, another would give you bonus combat feats, othe would give you a bonus to movement skills - akin to Pathfinder's Rogue Talents) and it should work.
Both the ninja and the monk are complete garbage.

Ninja are rogues, you either play urban for a city or wilderness for a town.

Load them up with an eggshell grenade, masterwork light weapon, give them dex, str and wis based skills and start spying and SAing guys and there you go.

Monks are a mix between internal and external martial arts, problem is that the few examples (less than a handful) of internal martial arts are represented as gimmicky, ineffective and misrepresented high level feats with silly requirements. Gentle way requires too much buck for too little bang as well, so DnD subs internal martial arts for what is essentially divine class features, which are pretty terrible.

Monks great if you want to play a low level wing chung scrub or karate kid.

[true_shinken]

Ninja are rogues, you either play urban for a city or wilderness for a town.

Really? Can you tell me how a Rogue transforms into different people or objects? How he avoids an attack by leaving a log behind him? How he paralyzes people by throwing a shuriken in their shadow? How he walks over water and on walls? Because that is what I expect ninja to do.

[Thufir]

Really? Can you tell me how a Rogue transforms into different people or objects? How he avoids an attack by leaving a log behind him? How he paralyzes people by throwing a shuriken in their shadow? How he walks over water and on walls? Because that is what I expect ninja to do.

Apparently your view on what ninja abilities are iconic differs wildly from other people's.

[true_shinken]

Apparently your view on what ninja abilities are iconic differs wildly from other people's.
Maybe not so different, since we have classes that do just that.

I blame Holywood and the north american's 'we did so it's the right way' school of thinking!

[Grynning]

...How he avoids an attack by leaving a log behind him?...

Hurrhurr...this made me think of something totally different than what you probably meant. I'll chalk it up to regional slang differences.

Anyways, the "magic/psionic/ki" abilities of the ninja vary greatly with interpretation, but personally, I think the psychic rogue does the job not only with their power list, but also their list of special abilities. They can get the Shadowdancer's shadow jump, which, while not the best teleport ever, is functional and very ninja-like. They get a free cloud mind, the ability to make an illusionary decoy of themselves, and all kinds of fun stuff. I love ya, Shink, but I think you're selling the PsiRogue short.

[Psyren]

I disagree, really. Monk is all about inner power, the workings of ki internally and stuff - psionics fit it perfecty -, but the Ninja's iconic abilities (that no D&D class actually translates :smallsigh:) are more akin to arcane magic. You even have kuji-kiri as somatic components!

Hmmm... I can see that argument. Maybe they would do well with something more somatic (Mysteries?) instead of Psionics.

But I don't think Spellthievery is a perfect fit either. Kuji-kiri and Kuji-in aside, Ninja power is internal, not stolen from other classes. (Plus, as others have said - the psyrogue abilities are very "ninja" in flavor.)

I don't see them using bat poop either, I think material components are out. Maybe ofuda like Shugenja use, but those are divine... I dunno.

For those reasons, I'll still say "Psyrogue'd" when people Ninja me. :smalltongue:


Really? Can you tell me how a Rogue transforms into different people or objects? How he avoids an attack by leaving a log behind him? How he paralyzes people by throwing a shuriken in their shadow? How he walks over water and on walls? Because that is what I expect ninja to do.

Psyrogues can do all of that, some even without powers. With a Lurk chassis it becomes even easier.

(Well, the shuriken in the shadow bit might be more a shadowcaster thing)

[true_shinken]

Hurrhurr...this made me think of something totally different than what you probably meant. I'll chalk it up to regional slang differences.
Well, I'm not a native speaker, so there's probably that. :smallsmile:


I love ya, Shink, but I think you're selling the PsiRogue short.
Oh, you're making me blush. :smallredface:
You do have a pretty good point. There are different kinds of ninjas and the PsyRogue does the 'sneaky mystical' kind very well indeed. I just wish there was a single class that you could 'branch' into the most common ninja archetypes. Maybe I'll try my hand at one.

[Hanuman]

Really? Can you tell me how a Rogue transforms into different people or objects? How he avoids an attack by leaving a log behind him? How he paralyzes people by throwing a shuriken in their shadow? How he walks over water and on walls? Because that is what I expect ninja to do.
1) Disguise check.
2) Dex/Shield AC, Log Shield, Drop Item, Move Action
3) .....what.
4) Epic Balance check, Epic Climb Check.

[Greenish]

3) .....what.You both say "ninja", but you speak of entirely different things.

[true_shinken]

1) Disguise check.
Disguise is not transforming. You can't even disguise yourself as an object by RAW.

2) Dex/Shield AC, Log Shield, Drop Item, Move Action
Rogues are not even proficient with shields and this would be an utter assassination of action economy for no good reason. 'able to do something' should translate into 'able to do something and having meaningful impact on the game'

3) .....what.
I'll take that as 'I concede, Rogues can't do this'

4) Epic Balance check, Epic Climb Check.
So it takes an epic Rogue to perform a basic ninja skill? Interesting.

[Hanuman]

You both say "ninja", but you speak of entirely different things.

Ninja in RL were supposedly just rogues, but I guess if the Christian gets to play a cleric of pelor and the wiccan gets to play sorceress then I don't see why an anime nerd can't have his archetypal myth be exaggerated, lol.


Disguise is not transforming. You can't even disguise yourself as an object by RAW.
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9846/cloak1.jpg


Rogues are not even proficient with shields and this would be an utter assassination of action economy for no good reason. 'able to do something' should translate into 'able to do something and having meaningful impact on the game'
Well then why are you using a log?


I'll take that as 'I concede, Rogues can't do this'
Cite which ninja film or anime or book or whatever you got this idea from? It sounds more like shinto mythology than just ninja.


So it takes an epic Rogue to perform a basic ninja skill? Interesting.
Yeah basically, same as it takes a deity to jump over an ocean. DnD is a mixture of both the fantasy and the realistic, and you sir are just more in the fantasy and less on the real.

[Boci]

Ninja in RL were supposedly just rogues,

Wasn't the focus more on assassin?



Then Frodo is boned. http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/avl/pics/lotr/ttt/cloak.jpg

That scene was stupid, the easternlings should have found them, unless Sam had some power to manipulate texture.


Cite which ninja film or anime or book or whatever you got this idea from? It sounds more like shinto mythology than just ninja.

That sounds familiar to me, although all I can't recall that exactly happening.


Yeah basically, same as it takes a deity to jump over an ocean. DnD is a mixture of both the fantasy and the realistic, and you sir are just more in the fantasy and less on the real.

Monks can swap slow fall for water walk.

[Hanuman]

Wasn't the focus more on assassin?
It depends if you are playing an assassination ninja, ninja were just crafty peasants, if you're playing a ninja hero you might be a scout, a rogue or go into assassin, all of these work.


That scene was stupid, the easternlings should have found them, unless Sam had some power to manipulate texture.

They are good at hiding.


Monks can swap slow fall for water walk.
I hear cave trolls can start wars with fire, for the League Of LegendS.

[true_shinken]

Ninja in RL were supposedly just rogues, but I guess if the Christian gets to play a cleric of pelor and the wiccan gets to play sorceress then I don't see why an anime nerd can't have his archetypal myth be exaggerated, lol.
Ninja in real life were desperate commoners lucky enough to face decadent samurai. D&D is not about real life... and ninja in shounen anime don't even do the stuff I mentioned;



Then Frodo is boned.
Oh, so Frodo is now a ninja? O.o



Well then why are you using a log?
Because a ninja should have a way to make it effective.



Cite which ninja film or anime or book or whatever you got this idea from? It sounds more like shinto mythology than just ninja.
It's from Japanese legend, which is the source from ninja myths. It's one of Sarutobi Sasuke's most commonly mentioned techniques.


Yeah basically, same as it takes a deity to jump over an ocean. DnD is a mixture of both the fantasy and the realistic, and you sir are just more in the fantasy and less on the real.
It's funny how D&D designers disagree with you. All the ninja classes in D&D gain one form of wall walking a lot before epic levels. If memory serves, the Crescent Moon Ninja gains it at level 1, even.
And it just takes a level 5 Wizard to cast fly over an ocean. Maybe you are just thinking D&D is a lot more realistic than it actually is.

[Boci]

They are good at hiding.

The scene is still stupid and did not appear in the book.


I hear cave trolls can start wars with fire, for the League Of LegendS.

Which could be relevant if a cave troll were ECL: 5.

[Greenish]

Ninja in RL were supposedly just rogues, but I guess if the Christian gets to play a cleric of pelor and the wiccan gets to play sorceress then I don't see why an anime nerd can't have his archetypal myth be exaggerated, lol.There's no reason to be so condescending, even if Boci could have clarified to begin with that he's talking about mystical-magical anime/hollywood ninja, not about anything historical.

Wasn't the focus more on assassin?Rogues are great assassins.

That scene was stupid, the easternlings should have found them, unless Sam had some power to manipulate texture.It was a super-magical elven made cloak of hiding. It gives HiPS (Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas had ones too, and the men of Rohan didn't notice them standing in plain sight on a middle of a wide open praerie).

Monks can swap slow fall for water walk.As a point of interest, ninja scout PrC from OA gives limited ability to walk on water, as well as +20 to balance, climb, tumble and jump and the ability to take 20 10 on them.

[Hanuman]

Ninja in real life were desperate commoners lucky enough to face decadent samurai. D&D is not about real life... and ninja in shounen anime don't even do the stuff I mentioned;
I don't think harassed peasants would consider themselves lucky.
Also, Naruto generally covers alter self, Polymorph Any Object and log jaunts.


Oh, so Frodo is now a ninja? O.o
Frodo can do it without magic, if that makes him more ninja than ninja, then yes it's probably ninjaking.


Because a ninja should have a way to make it effective.
Houserule it, yo. If you are wanting balance you can balance anything, giant ducks, calzone golems, cheddar armor, ect. Doesn't mean that'd normally be smart but hey.


It's from Japanese legend, which is the source from ninja myths. It's one of Sarutobi Sasuke's most commonly mentioned techniques.
Understood, never heard of it.


It's funny how D&D designers disagree with you. All the ninja classes in D&D gain one form of wall walking a lot before epic levels. If memory serves, the Crescent Moon Ninja gains it at level 1, even.
And it just takes a level 5 Wizard to cast fly over an ocean. Maybe you are just thinking D&D is a lot more realistic than it actually is.
Well I think DnD designers and I parted the moment 4e came out, I don't miss them.

[Boci]

Rogues are great assassins.

I'm sure they can also do quite a few things RL ninja couldn't.


It was a super-magical elven made cloak of hiding. It gives HiPS (Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas had ones too, and the men of Rohan didn't notice them standing in plain sight on a middle of a wide open praerie).

That not as bad, and it was actually in the book.


As a point of interest, ninja scout PrC from OA gives limited ability to walk on water, as well as +20 to balance, climb, tumble and jump and the ability to take 20 on them.

Thats pretty cool, but I have a feeling a lot of DMs would knee jerk ban/nerf it.


Frodo can do it without magic, if that makes him more ninja than ninja, then yes it's probably ninjaking.

No, he needed the elven cloak and even then it was a stupid scene (for me at least).


Well I think DnD designers and I parted the moment 4e came out, I don't miss them.

When did anyone mention 4e?

[Eloel]

As a point of interest, ninja scout PrC from OA gives limited ability to walk on water, as well as +20 to balance, climb, tumble and jump and the ability to take 20 on them.
I'm hoping you mean take 10. Because "take 20" is a very different concept, that involves failing 19 times. Jump for a ledge upwards? It works. Jump across a pit trap? Ouch.

[Greenish]

I'm hoping you mean take 10. Because "take 20" is a very different concept, that involves failing 19 times. Jump for a ledge upwards? It works. Jump across a pit trap? Ouch.Right-o, my bad.

[Edit]:
Thats pretty cool, but I have a feeling a lot of DMs would knee jerk ban/nerf it.That'd be quite weird, but maybe. It starts as a +10 bonus, and increases to +20 on later levels. The PrC is actually surprisingly decent, with SA progress, HiPS and the Acrobatics thingy.

[true_shinken]

There's no reason to be so condescending, even if Boci could have clarified to begin with that he's talking about mystical-magical anime/hollywood ninja, not about anything historical.

I just have to point out: there is no such thing as historical ninja. People argue to this day on this. Were there ninja villages? Were they commoners revolting? Were they conspirators? There is a lof of contradiction on this. No one knows when the first ninja surfaced and the historical records of ninjas are sketchy at best... like ALL japanese ancient history. Everything is mixed with myth to the point where it's hard to know where myth ends and history starts.

If 'ninja is a spy', then you go against all myth and you don't need a class for it. Then we wouldn't have classes for Paladins (who would be Fighters), Clerics (who would be Experts) or Wizards (who would be delusional people, beggars and comic books writers).
So, when someone talks 'ninja' it's pretty obvious they don't mean 'japanese spy that has a fancy name' because that would be pointless since there is no Japan in D&D to begin with.

[Greenish]

If 'ninja is a spy', then you go against all myth and you don't need a class for it.Precisely. Rogues (or experts for NPC ninjas) work just fine.

Then we wouldn't have classes for Paladins (who would be Fighters), Clerics (who would be Experts) or Wizards (who would be delusional people, beggars and comic books writers).Poppycock. Just because a class isn't magical doesn't mean no class should have magic.


So, when someone talks 'ninja' it's pretty obvious they don't mean 'japanese spy that has a fancy name' because that would be pointless since there is no Japan in D&D to begin with.That's exactly what I understand the term to mean, unless specified otherwise. In D&D terms, a rogue with Eastern flavour.

[Maho-Tsukai]

"Also, Naruto generally covers alter self, Polymorph Any Object and log jaunts."- Hanuman

Naruto ninja are hardly ninja by D&D stats. Naruto ninja are FAR to "caster-y" and hardly ever use stealth, ever. To me a Naruto ninja in D&D would definitely need to be a fullcaster and would most likely be some kind of gish build or a gestalt with one side being a fullcaster class and other side being some fitting melee class since while they lack stealth they have been seen to be rather good at the whole melee thing too. As far as material components go, eshcew materials or make the "fullcaster" class a psionic one.(I consider psionics to be casting so any psionic class is to me, a "fullcaster.")

[Hanuman]

If 'ninja is a spy', then you go against all myth and you don't need a class for it. Then we wouldn't have classes for Paladins (who would be Fighters), Clerics (who would be Experts) or Wizards (who would be delusional people, beggars and comic books writers).
See my comment on different cultures myths, we have techniques and weapons supposedly from that, so ninja in essence is whatever was left behind.
Aka, weapons and techniques. The ideology was that of stealth, recon and craftiness. We still have these things, SWAT is a good example, snipers are another, it's all just the same song with a different tune. Whether they existed or not, we have weapons and techniques supposedly by them, if not then they are functional techniques made up by someone and labeled that, and the ideology works and is in practice.

Saying that ninja have towns or whatever is ridiculous, that's like saying "where's the village of archers in modern day?" where as people use guns and not usually is most anything made a collective effort, especially martial arts philosophies.
We have taijitsu, we have parkour, we have SWAT, military, snipercore, navy seal, ect. to fill all of the roles that "ninja" practices, but TBH the concept of Ninja are neither original nor optimized in themselves.


Naruto ninja are hardly ninja by D&D stats. Naruto ninja are FAR to "caster-y" and hardly ever use stealth, ever.
Well, I haven't watched much of that show... I've seen maybe 2 episodes and I figured that I wouldn't see anything new if I watched 200 times that amount.

[Yora]

Well, the japanese Ninjas were reportedly mostly from two noble families, which probably would have their own family castles and serfs. But they probably wouldn't all be trained in ninja tactics.

[SylvanPrincess]

I just have to point out: there is no such thing as historical ninja.

yes huh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mochizuki_Chiyome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunoichi

evidently there are people out there who dont do research before making statements :P and these only refer to female ninja.

Biography

Though Hanzō was born and raised in Mikawa Province, he often returned to Iga Province, home of the Hattori family. He fought his first battle at the age of 16 (a night-time attack on Udo castle[3])[4] and went on to serve with distinction at the battles of Anegawa (1570) and Mikatagahara (1572).[3] His most valuable contribution came in 1582 following Oda Nobunaga's death, when he led the future shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu to safety in Mikawa Province across Iga territory with the help of remnants of the local Iga ninja clans[4] as well as their one-time rivals in Koga.[6]

Hanzō was known as an expert tactician and a master of spear fighting. Various magical tricks such as disappearing and appearing elsewhere, psychokinesis and precognition were also attributed to him.[4] Historical sources say he died in 1596 at the age of 55.[3] According to a popular legend, the ninja of Fūma Kotarō killed Hanzō in sea combat during their raid against the Tokugawa forces in the Inland Sea.[7]

hanzo, despite popular belief supported by the game samurai warriors was not a ninja, but was samurai, and utilized ninja techniques/tactics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C5%ABma_Kotar%C5%8D

also, you said there arent ninja vilages (lol), but there are many references to ninja clans, including 2 mentioned here, the Iga, and the Fūma. yes their roots were as vilagers and farmers, but they became so much more than that



~Ninja in RL were supposedly just rogues,
~Wasn't the focus more on assassin?
no, they were ninja :P


also, check this out, good info on RL ninja weapons/tactics and abilities
http://www.spike.com/full-episode/spartan-vs-ninja/31578

[Greenish]

also, check this out, good info on RL ninja weapons/tactics and abilities
http://www.spike.com/full-episode/spartan-vs-ninja/31578Deadliest Warrior. :smallamused:

[Psyren]

Are we really arguing about the capabilities of "RL Ninja" in a game with wizards and sorcerers? Did historical Paladins go around conjuring up horses from celestial realms to ride? :smallconfused:

[TheMeMan]

yes huh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mochizuki_Chiyome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunoichi

evidently there are people out there who dont do research before making statements :P and these only refer to female ninja.

Biography

Though Hanzō was born and raised in Mikawa Province, he often returned to Iga Province, home of the Hattori family. He fought his first battle at the age of 16 (a night-time attack on Udo castle[3])[4] and went on to serve with distinction at the battles of Anegawa (1570) and Mikatagahara (1572).[3] His most valuable contribution came in 1582 following Oda Nobunaga's death, when he led the future shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu to safety in Mikawa Province across Iga territory with the help of remnants of the local Iga ninja clans[4] as well as their one-time rivals in Koga.[6]

Hanzō was known as an expert tactician and a master of spear fighting. Various magical tricks such as disappearing and appearing elsewhere, psychokinesis and precognition were also attributed to him.[4] Historical sources say he died in 1596 at the age of 55.[3] According to a popular legend, the ninja of Fūma Kotarō killed Hanzō in sea combat during their raid against the Tokugawa forces in the Inland Sea.[7]

hanzo, despite popular belief supported by the game samurai warriors was not a ninja, but was samurai, and utilized ninja techniques/tactics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C5%ABma_Kotar%C5%8D

also, you said there arent ninja vilages (lol), but there are many references to ninja clans, including 2 mentioned here, the Iga, and the Fūma. yes their roots were as vilagers and farmers, but they became so much more than that


no, they were ninja :P


also, check this out, good info on RL ninja weapons/tactics and abilities
http://www.spike.com/full-episode/spartan-vs-ninja/31578To be fair, there is no such thing as what is commonly thought of as "Ninjas". Those were fictionalized versions created through Japanese theater as a theatrical effect, modeled after what could be referred to as "stage hands". The purpose was that traditional stage-hands wore all black to show they weren't a part of the show, and stay hidden in the background. However, to portray Ninjas in the theater, they needed an element of surprise, and the best way to do this was to have a rather unassuming stage-hand turn out being an assassin/Ninja. Hence the common perception of what Ninjas are. In truth, they are absolutely nothing like what is often portrayed. One real-life case has them being bodyguards disguised as gardeners. Hell, black would be the worst you could wear, and their common color used at night was actually blue as it blends better than black(As black is actually not very prominent at night, and you would stand out like a sore thumb).

[TheMeMan]

Ninja in real life were desperate commoners lucky enough to face decadent samurai. D&D is not about real life... and ninja in shounen anime don't even do the stuff I mentioned;

.

Uh... no. No they weren't. They were highly trained mercenaries, is a better word for it. The whole Ninja vs. Samurai thing is rather absurd. They could be assassins, bodyguards, soldiers, shock-troops, diplomats, or a combination of all of the above.

[SylvanPrincess]

im not arguing anything, just responding to what i felt was fiction, with fact. id rather talk about how the CA ninja might be affected by assuming the psy war's power list and progression :)

to say that there is no such thing as a ninja is what the ninja want you to believe! when you think that, the ninja win. :smallbiggrin:

[TheMeMan]

Are we really arguing about the capabilities of "RL Ninja" in a game with wizards and sorcerers? Did historical Paladins go around conjuring up horses from celestial realms to ride? :smallconfused:

Good point, really. I would say take the real-world accounts, mix in the fictionalized accounts, and then model the class after a heavy dose of exaggeration. I would say adding some sort of psionic progression, perhaps that of the Psychic Warrior, base it off of wisdom, and you have the beginnings at the very least. Perhaps scale back the progression to differentiate it from PW(as this class is supposed to be the height of melding body and mind, imo).

Perhaps start the progression at level 4, with a max Power Level known of 4 or 5. Just a quick thought, I haven't thought it through. Of course, if you go this route, you'll need to trick it out with a few more abilities, perhaps a free psionic feat at level 6, 12, and 18.

[TheMeMan]

im not arguing anything, just responding to what i felt was fiction, with fact. id rather talk about how the CA ninja might be affected by assuming the psy war's power list and progression :)

to say that there is no such thing as a ninja is what the ninja want you to believe! when you think that, the ninja win. :smallbiggrin:

I don't have the book on me, so I don't remember the exact details, but see my above post for details. I think giving it the full Psy-War progression would be unfair to the Psy-War a bit, as well as possibly giving a bit much in the way of power, and reducing level of uniqueness that the class has.

So, for a thought a experiment, perhaps something like(Forgive me, I don't know how to use tables:

4th Level: 1 1st Level Power
5th: 2 First Level Powers
6th: 3 1st Lvl Powers
7th: 3 1st, 1 2nd lvl Powers...

Etc.

So, at level 20, a Ninja would have access to:
3 First Level Powers
3 Second Level Powers
3 Third Level Powers
3 Fourth Level Powers
3 Fifth Level Powers
1 6th Lvl Power.

Couple that with a few free Psionic Feats, and a power point progression in a similar manner as the Psy-War(Starting at 4th Level, obviously). Perhaps even home-brew a "Ninja-Power" List would be appropriate. I think it would be a nice start, and keep it out of the Psy-War's realm of abilities. It would give it a nice bit of versatility, without being overpowered. I would say such a progression would bring it into low to mid tier 3. Could be wrong though.

[true_shinken]

evidently there are people out there who dont do research before making statements :P and these only refer to female ninja.

There are also people out there who do research with actual books, actual teachers, on an actual university and don't just browse wikipedia for info.
Real historians can't agree on what a ninja is. No, there are no such thing as a historical ninja. Only people that some other people might consider ninja.


Uh... no. No they weren't. They were highly trained mercenaries, is a better word for it. The whole Ninja vs. Samurai thing is rather absurd. They could be assassins, bodyguards, soldiers, shock-troops, diplomats, or a combination of all of the above.
Not at all. Kitahara Satomi specifically has a theory (quite largely accepted, even; I found reference to it in my copy of Gurps Martial Arts) that the origin of ninja myths were actually because of samurai running into rebelious commoners. Mistrained samurai, facing a large number of desperate enemies, had to run... and they just couldn't say they were chased away by commoners. Add to it them contracting disease from said commoner's rusted ill-cared weapons and you have a ninja legend on your hands.

[SylvanPrincess]

Real historians can't agree on what a ninja is. No, there are no such thing as a historical ninja. Only people that some other people might consider ninja.


i respect your knowledge, and im sorry that you took offense to what i said. this thread is already derailed because of a page long back and forth about whether a ninja was a peasant or a farmer. id rather people talk about the OP :(

look, ive done research :P wikipedia was the quickest way to post it however. but youre right. i must be TOTALLY wrong, and wikipedia is wrong too. and hanzo is REALLY just a made up character for a quentin tarantino movie.

my point is, you can be civil when trying to make a point, and not call people out sarcastically. sorry i didnt feel like digging my 24 volume encyclopedia collection out of storage to check, and i missed my ninja history class at college today.

:smalleek::smallfrown:

[true_shinken]

look, ive done research :P wikipedia was the quickest way to post it however. but youre right. i must be TOTALLY wrong, and wikipedia is wrong too. and hanzo is REALLY just a made up character for a quentin tarantino movie. and no, your !@$# really doesnt stink.


That's not what I meant. No need to get so agressive. There are historical characters who are said to be ninja, sure. There are also the historical Iga and Koga. But people disagree on what is a ninja and where did they came from. So it's not accurate to say historical ninja, that's all I meant.
Just to point out how unreliable ninja accounts can be, Yamato Takeru no Mikoto is considered a ninja by some. He is also a late emperor of Japan (and a borderline mythical figure).
I study japanese culture and language at my university and it takes me a lot of effort just to keep up, so I'm sorry if I'm came up too strongly about this. It's just that college is a lot of trouble for me and just saying the knowledge I got from it dismissed as 'did not do the reserach' greatly bothered me.

[TheMeMan]

Not at all. Kitahara Satomi specifically has a theory (quite largely accepted, even; I found reference to it in my copy of Gurps Martial Arts) that the origin of ninja myths were actually because of samurai running into rebelious commoners. Mistrained samurai, facing a large number of desperate enemies, had to run... and they just couldn't say they were chased away by commoners. Add to it them contracting disease from said commoner's rusted ill-cared weapons and you have a ninja legend on your hands.

Ah, I was referring more towards the singular Ninja vs. the Samurai, in an epic battle of the ages, facing off as polar opposites. It never happened, in real life at least. That said, alot of the the stories are mythical in nature, probably talked up either through cases such as yours, or through bar-room buddy stories and high-tale exaggerations(Of a sorts). Hey, it's one thing to beat down a mercenary, but it's an entirely different issue when you beat a highly trained, near-mythical in nature individual. That sort of thing.

That said, there are numerous stories abound about "ninjas" with very little consensus on what they really were. I was merely stating that they can be(and have been) attributed to what I said above(And likely more). In some cases they were bodyguards, in other they were mercenary soldiers, and then you hit the mythical assassin type stories. The truth of the matter is, none of the stories really describes Ninjas, as none of them are truly getting at the whole of the issue.

[SylvanPrincess]

That's not what I meant. No need to get so agressive. There are historical characters who are said to be ninja, sure. There are also the historical Iga and Koga. But people disagree on what is a ninja and where did they came from. So it's not accurate to say historical ninja, that's all I meant.
Just to point out how unreliable ninja accounts can be, Yamato Takeru no Mikoto is considered a ninja by some. He is also a late emperor of Japan (and a borderline mythical figure).
I study japanese culture and language at my university and it takes me a lot of effort just to keep up, so I'm sorry if I'm came up too strongly about this. It's just that college is a lot of trouble for me and just saying the knowledge I got from it dismissed as 'did not do the reserach' greatly bothered me.

i apologize. it is easy to take things the wrong way online, and i am tired :(

[true_shinken]

That said, there are numerous stories abound about "ninjas" with very little consensus on what they really were. I was merely stating that they can be(and have been) attributed to what I said above(And likely more). In some cases they were bodyguards, in other they were mercenary soldiers, and then you hit the mythical assassin type stories. The truth of the matter is, none of the stories really describes Ninjas, as none of them are truly getting at the whole of the issue.

Yes, you summed up my own point a lot better than I did. :smallbiggrin:^



i apologize. it is easy to take things the wrong way online, and i am tired :(
Hey, no problem. Glad we could talk it over like this. While we are at it, Iron Chef XVI is about the assassin class, so while you're in the ninja mood, check it out. /shamelessplug

[SylvanPrincess]

i actually have a homebrew ninja i made a couple months ago, maybe ill check it out. usually tho if i put a homebrew up, people say its grossly sucky, because it cant do what a 20 level wizard can do... :( :(

[true_shinken]

i actually have a homebrew ninja i made a couple months ago, maybe ill check it out. usually tho if i put a homebrew up, people say its grossly sucky, because it cant do what a 20 level wizard can do... :( :(
People on this forum tend to be into homebrew a lot, I suggest you give it a try.

[Hanuman]

Ah, I was referring more towards the singular Ninja vs. the Samurai, in an epic battle of the ages, facing off as polar opposites. It never happened, in real life at least. That said, alot of the the stories are mythical in nature, probably talked up either through cases such as yours, or through bar-room buddy stories and high-tale exaggerations(Of a sorts). Hey, it's one thing to beat down a mercenary, but it's an entirely different issue when you beat a highly trained, near-mythical in nature individual. That sort of thing.

That said, there are numerous stories abound about "ninjas" with very little consensus on what they really were. I was merely stating that they can be(and have been) attributed to what I said above(And likely more). In some cases they were bodyguards, in other they were mercenary soldiers, and then you hit the mythical assassin type stories. The truth of the matter is, none of the stories really describes Ninjas, as none of them are truly getting at the whole of the issue.
Truth, DnD is really more a game of archetypes than it is of specifics. Limitations are for balance ease, everything else can be homebrewed.

[TheMeMan]

Truth, DnD is really more a game of archetypes than it is of specifics. Limitations are for balance ease, everything else can be homebrewed.

Ah, very true. I was simply replying to those saying what "real ninjas" were or were not. Fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter in D&D terms, really, and the fictionalized version is perfectly fine and suitable.

All this said, I think I may stat up a CA Ninja with Psionics under its belt, with a few goodies. See how it looks.

[Hanuman]

Ah, very true. I was simply replying to those saying what "real ninjas" were or were not. Fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter in D&D terms, really, and the fictionalized version is perfectly fine and suitable.

All this said, I think I may stat up a CA Ninja with Psionics under its belt, with a few goodies. See how it looks.
TBH shadowrun is a much better game to be running ninjas anyway, then you only need 3 choices, are you going to buy mystic adept, magician or save your BP :smallbiggrin:

The main point I was trying to make (albeit hidden) is that the term Ninja is a way of being, Rogues CAN be ninjas, so can swordsages and psirogue/lurks, CAninja can also be a ninja, these are all valid archetypes and some are more mythological than others, but the reason you don't have a consolidated or "On the mark" ninja class is because Ninja isn't really an archetype, but as I was explaining archetypes are based off of middle of the road interpretations, or, "what can almost all ninjas do in stories?" I'm not denying that having cool shadow powers or logblocking or whatever is a great thing to have, I'm just saying that not every ninja is going to possess a wonderous item like Shuriken of Shadow Freezing or have abrupt jaunt, but they do all have their more mundane powers, and often have some sort of power as described which can be played in any of the previous classes I just listed, mostly a legend will have a specific setup, but those legends are LEGENDS, they are high level PC's who have already customized and specialized their build and I don't think we will get anywhere by starting a base class off with an expectation that it will evolve certain powers to suit some a few legendary ones, that'd be more like playing DnD The Animated Series source book instead.

So yes, you MIGHT go swordsage or psirogue or whatever and get your powers right off the bat, but keep in mind that ninja are rogues, the same as Miko is a paladin, but she's a little different from the other paladin scrubs around her huh? Or Roy, he's a little different than your average soldier?
People can dip, multiclass, and whatever, but a ninja is a sneak attacking master of stealth, agility, movement and skillpoints. A group of elite ninja might have powers, yeah, but I've never seen a source where there are lots of ninja, they all have powers, and aren't considered elite.

So I'm interested in your response, if the blacksmith in town is a 3rd level expert, then are there leagues of 1st level "true ninja" running around with super shadow powers the same as there would be 1st level wizards in a magocracy?

[Maho-Tsukai]

A group of elite ninja might have powers, yeah, but I've never seen a source where there are lots of ninja, they all have powers, and aren't considered elite

Again, Naruto. While you have not seen it so I understand you don't know much about it the "powers" most people have been listing here are all considered low level, basic skills that all ninja possess. I said Naruto ninja are "caster-y" for a reason. Even the fodder ninja that we have seen are capible of throwing around fireballs ect.. High level ninjas in Naruto can do everything from mass reserections to blowing up cities with one jutsu to warping space and time, make perfect clones of others, summoning giant specteral beings of great power, buffing their physical stats to insane levels, read minds, body snatch, steal souls, use mindrape-esc illusions and thats just the tip of the iceburg. Oh, and some of them can even making anything they can imagine real.(Though only one ninja has been comfirmed to do that and he would most likely be nearing epic if not epic in D&D terms...Also, the Big Bad of the Manga has claimed he can use that power after getting an upgrade(Complete with costrume change.) but we have yet to see it in action.)

However, Naruto is HARDLY what mythological ninjas where. They are more or less like I said, martial arts/ninja themed gishes and mythological and historical ninjas both fall far more in line with the "rogue/sneak" ninja that ypu speak of.

[true_shinken]

I'm not denying that having cool shadow powers or logblocking or whatever is a great thing to have, I'm just saying that not every ninja is going to possess a wonderous item like Shuriken of Shadow Freezing or have abrupt jaunt, but they do all have their more mundane powers, and often have some sort of power as described which can be played in any of the previous classes I just listed
You know, I was actually agreeing with your argument up to the mentioned point. You mentioned CA Ninjas yoursels. They can become invisibe multiple times per day at first level. How is that mundane?


but those legends are LEGENDS, they are high level PC's who have already customized and specialized their build and I don't think we will get anywhere by starting a base class off with an expectation that it will evolve certain powers to suit some a few legendary ones, that'd be more like playing DnD The Animated Series source book instead.
I can't really see your point here. First, high level D&D characters tend to be a lot more powerful than legendary figure, so expecting to be able to do legendary stuff at lower levels is a non-issue. Second, D&D animated series was about low level, non adventurous kids with very powerful weapons. What does that have to do with anything?


So yes, you MIGHT go swordsage or psirogue or whatever and get your powers right off the bat, but keep in mind that ninja are rogues, the same as Miko is a paladin, but she's a little different from the other paladin scrubs around her huh? Or Roy, he's a little different than your average soldier?
That I can agree with. Kind of, see below.


People can dip, multiclass, and whatever, but a ninja is a sneak attacking master of stealth, agility, movement and skillpoints. A group of elite ninja might have powers, yeah, but I've never seen a source where there are lots of ninja, they all have powers, and aren't considered elite.
Well, I know of at least (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JZgYxWHLo_A/TLin8-t_irI/AAAAAAAAAK4/lfEToPhfC6w/s1600/naruto2222.jpg) two (http://www.madoomovie.com/media/0617Flame%20Of%20Recca%20poster.jpg). :smallamused:



So I'm interested in your response, if the blacksmith in town is a 3rd level expert, then are there leagues of 1st level "true ninja" running around with super shadow powers the same as there would be 1st level wizards in a magocracy?
There are lots of 1st level wizards even out of a magocracy. DMG has rules for generating communities; even the smallest one will have at least one wizard among them. Special powers are not as uncommon in D&D as you seem to think.

[Person_Man]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the (3.0) Oriental Adventures Ninja Spy PrC yet. Grants Poison Use, Poison Immunity, some Sneak Attack, Improved Evasion, +20 Balance/Climb/Jump/Tumble, Hide in Plain Site, at will supernatural Alter Self (tons of applications), Slippery Mind, and other minor goodies.

[Greenish]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the (3.0) Oriental Adventures Ninja Spy PrC yet.Well, I did mention it in the first page. I just got the name mixed up with the Shadow Scout next to it.

[Hanuman]

You know, I was actually agreeing with your argument up to the mentioned point. You mentioned CA Ninjas yoursels. They can become invisibe multiple times per day at first level. How is that mundane?
It's not, I'm on the side on mundane ninja in campaigns outweighing the ones with crazy powers as invisibility is a Wiz3 spell. Why would a basic class where you'd see communities of these guys, the same as rogues or barbarians, who have these powers?


I can't really see your point here. First, high level D&D characters tend to be a lot more powerful than legendary figure, so expecting to be able to do legendary stuff at lower levels is a non-issue. Second, D&D animated series was about low level, non adventurous kids with very powerful weapons. What does that have to do with anything?
I'd disagree, characters tend to be more optimized and flashy and readable, but that doesn't stop the "low level" wizard Gandalf from taking down a Balor.
//Limiting people to a certain expectation of their class takes away what DnD is really about, thus like the animated series examples, they are more examples of a specific character rather than ones you create, why should I side on the side of example and regurgitation rather than creativity with just usage of flavor?


Well, I know of at least (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JZgYxWHLo_A/TLin8-t_irI/AAAAAAAAAK4/lfEToPhfC6w/s1600/naruto2222.jpg) two (http://www.madoomovie.com/media/0617Flame%20Of%20Recca%20poster.jpg). :smallamused:
Just like the archetypical pirates?: http://scholarization.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/one-piece-550.jpg


There are lots of 1st level wizards even out of a magocracy. DMG has rules for generating communities; even the smallest one will have at least one wizard among them. Special powers are not as uncommon in D&D as you seem to think.
Right, but do you honestly believe that all stealth assassins in these communities are to have special powers? Can a ninja not be low enough level to not warrant use of Ki and inner harmony and such? Or is the blacksmith3 going to find a legion of magic death ninjas bouncing after him?


However, Naruto is HARDLY what mythological ninjas where. They are more or less like I said, martial arts/ninja themed gishes and mythological and historical ninjas both fall far more in line with the "rogue/sneak" ninja that you speak of.
Agreed.

[true_shinken]

Right, but do you honestly believe that all stealth assassins in these communities are to have special powers? Can a ninja not be low enough level to not warrant use of Ki and inner harmony and such? Or is the blacksmith3 going to find a legion of magic death ninjas bouncing after him?

You're missing my point. I just don't think you should make a ninja class for stealth assassins - use Rogue for these, you don't need another class. If you are going to craft a Ninja class, it should do something Rogues don't do. So the mystical ninja concept fits.

[Hanuman]

You're missing my point. I just don't think you should make a ninja class for stealth assassins - use Rogue for these, you don't need another class. If you are going to craft a Ninja class, it should do something Rogues don't do. So the mystical ninja concept fits.
So basically your point is that you think the archetype of a ninja is a legendary stealth assassin. So it's a PrC.

[Nero24200]

You're missing my point. I just don't think you should make a ninja class for stealth assassins - use Rogue for these, you don't need another class. If you are going to craft a Ninja class, it should do something Rogues don't do. So the mystical ninja concept fits.

I agree that this is how the ninja class should be. A stealthy assassin can easily be covered by rogue (or monks if you really really want). Theres no point in making a class unless it has something of it's own, and to really do that you'd need to do a mystical ninja.

Now I think the Naruto Ninja would be too much (since I'd say they be far better suited mechanically as sorcerers or even psionics with power points to represent Chakra), but a semi-psionic rogue who can run along walls, create magical seals and poisons out of nothing or track targets with an effect like the "Mark" spell could be quite interesting.

[true_shinken]

So basically your point is that you think the archetype of a ninja is a legendary stealth assassin. So it's a PrC.
No, not necessarily. Look, D&D is briming with characters with mystical powers from the start. We even have a lot of stealthy characters with mystical powers - Beguiler, Bard, Spellthief and Ranger just to mention a few.
Why is it that you can't have another class to do the same? The mystical ninja archetype is not limited to legendary characters by all means, just read up on a few japanese myths and you'll realize this.
Anyway, I made my point. You're free to disagree.

[Hanuman]

No, not necessarily. Look, D&D is briming with characters with mystical powers from the start. We even have a lot of stealthy characters with mystical powers - Beguiler, Bard, Spellthief and Ranger just to mention a few.
Ranger is my view on it, assuming a town might have a level 2 or 3 NPC class and the rest commoners a level 4 could be a towns champion or defender. If that defender was a Ninja, I could totally see him having a few little magic tricks like you see, he wouldn't be considered a demon or a force of nature or death unless he created that persona, but instead would be a real guy sitting there doing his thing.

Same with a level 4 ranger, he might have a single 1st level bonus spell at 4th level.

I can understand and agree that ninja legends can and should exist in the DnD world, but someone with a few class levels does not make them a legend unless otherwise contrived in which case anyone could scoundrel that, even commoners. A level 1 wizard has 4HP standard, 5 if he is an adventurer, a level 2 has 7HP standard, a level 6 would have 20HP and by that point a 20 HP character with leadership is a good point to start climbing that "man of legend" status, thus like ranger it could have activation or be a PRC.

Until then, I'm cool with rogue or psychic and just flavor it after.