(3.PF) WBL and healing costs

[WarKitty]

How much of WBL is supposed to be spent on spells like restoration (1000gp in PF), raise dead, etc?

Edit: I specifically mean various healing/restoration/resurrection spells, not spellcasting in general. The things that you need to keep going but don't give you any further benefit.

[sonofzeal]

I believe consumables (including material components) are supposed to be roughly 10% of income.

[WarKitty]

Thanks. Trying to figure something out - right now we need at least 12000 gold total for 7 restoration spells and a raise dead. Need to add up what we have, but I don't think our level 5 party has anywhere near that without making the melee give up their magic weapons.

[Ernir]

As much as you'd like. The WBL guidelines are based on "average treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience points earned in those encounters.". What I read is the assumption that players fight random encounters and do what they wish with the loot. Loot that doesn't have infinite uses isn't really dealt with in the rules. =/

If you're talking about creating a character above first level:

As a general rule, a new character can spend no more than half her total wealth on a single item, and no more than one quarter the total wealth on consumables such as ammunition, scrolls, potions, wands, or alchemical items.
DMG 42.

[WarKitty]

As much as you'd like. The WBL guidelines are based on "average treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience points earned in those encounters.". What I read is the assumption that players fight random encounters and do what they wish with the loot.

If you're talking about creating a character above first level:

DMG 42.

Nope, trying to figure out if our DM is completely insane or not with the spells we're having to cast just to keep moving after encounters. I have a feeling a few more monsters like this will end up with us significantly below WBL and still fighting normally CR-appropriate monsters.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... It seems that you'd be better off throwing all that cash into preventing the damage in the first place. Eternal wands of lesser vigor would save tons of cash. warning, eager throwing stars would boost init and are cheap. Weapon augment gems are a good way around common problem enemies, and have yer casters make lists of any spells that could be used to beef up your beat sticks and buy them some wands of those spells.

[WarKitty]

Hmm... It seems that you'd be better off throwing all that cash into preventing the damage in the first place. Eternal wands of lesser vigor would save tons of cash. warning, eager throwing stars would boost init and are cheap. Weapon augment gems are a good way around common problem enemies, and have yer casters make lists of any spells that could be used to beef up your beat sticks and buy them some wands of those spells.

None of the cost listed is HP damage though. It's ability drain (I lost from 3 different stats due to one failed save) and a single raise dead and removal of subsequent negative levels. I got hit with a fort save, then we were getting blasted with ranged touch ability damage against the casters. After that we lost one melee when our primary mega-damage guy got mind-controlled while she was mid-climb. Took 30 ranged touch damage in one hit, got knocked out and fell to her death.

[Vizzerdrix]

Ah. and that is why I should read topics more carefully when I'm tired posting. ^_^

[S]Hmm... I want to say that you can use summon natures ally to cure some of that, but I can't remember what you'd summon. Not a Unicorn. I just checked that one...

[WarKitty]

Ah. and that is why I should read topics more carefully when I'm tired posting. ^_^

[S]Hmm... I want to say that you can use summon natures ally to cure some of that, but I can't remember what you'd summon. Not a Unicorn. I just checked that one...

PF summoning list. And I'm only level 6. There's really nothing there to summon.

[Vizzerdrix]

Well shucks then. I wish I was a bit more learned in PF so I could recommend a good cheap way to help ya. Are you lacking a band aid? I know one wouldn't be able to save the dead guy at this level, but at least he could heal the damage for you.

[WarKitty]

Well shucks then. I wish I was a bit more learned in PF so I could recommend a good cheap way to help ya. Are you lacking a band aid? I know one wouldn't be able to save the dead guy at this level, but at least he could heal the damage for you.

We have someone. Restoration in pathfinder is a 1000gp material cost spell though, even without having to pay the caster.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, your DM wants you poorer or isn't thinking his encounters through at all, charging you 3K+ an encounter. Unless the encounter tables were significantly altered, that's EL 8 standard to avoid a net loss of money from the fight.

...Or he's trying to make you so poor that Raise Dead isn't an option.... :smallconfused:

Edit: He did know about the increased cost before he threw those things at you, right?

[WarKitty]

Yeah, your DM wants you poorer or isn't thinking his encounters through at all, charging you 3K+ an encounter. Unless the encounter tables were significantly altered, that's EL 8 standard to avoid a net loss of money from the fight.

...Or he's trying to make you so poor that Raise Dead isn't an option.... :smallconfused:

Edit: He did know about the increased cost before he threw those things at you, right?

My guess is he didn't think things through. He was trying to modify the 3.5 banshee to be appropriate (the normal one is a CR 17). He remembered to remove the death wail, plus we were all incorporeal at the time so as to remove the whole 50% damage thing. Probably didn't think about the increased cost of restoration spells when converting. That and we almost never get gold drops, just loot to resell. And we're still needing more items for the melee.

Now, if we can figure out how to break WBL...

[Ormur]

I figured WBL should work a bit like XP. If you spend more you'll just gain more to keep up with WBL. But of course that depends on the DM actually tracking it.

[Starbuck_II]

I believe consumables (including material components) are supposed to be roughly 10% of income.

10% and the DM is supposed to refresh it till you gain a level: than use the new 10% mark.

If you add up the amount you get (adding up money/encounter) and the amount the books says WBL: you always have 110%. As the 10% is supposed to be renewed.

[sreservoir]

lesser restoration is a 1st-level spell for paladins. get an eternal wand of it.

(the creator doesn't have to cast arcane spells that I can tell, only the user.)

[WarKitty]

lesser restoration is a 1st-level spell for paladins. get an eternal wand of it.

(the creator doesn't have to cast arcane spells that I can tell, only the user.)

We have the caster. The problem is that we don't have the material components for restoration and raise dead.

[sreservoir]

well, lots of castings of lesser restoration can save on the cost of restorations; the service cost is 60gp a pop iirc. as to raise dead, reincarnate is significantly cheaper, but does have the new body issue.

[WarKitty]

well, lots of castings of lesser restoration can save on the cost of restorations; the service cost is 60gp a pop iirc. as to raise dead, reincarnate is significantly cheaper, but does have the new body issue.

Lesser restoration doesn't do anything towards ability drain. And we aren't paying service costs, we're paying material component costs.

[Seerow]

You mention most of this came about as a result of the DM retooling a banshee for a lower level, and forgetting to modify some things.

Is this sort of thing a regular occurrence? If not, it was probably an accident, you can suck up a high recuperation cost once every once in a while. If this is a regular thing, and you are spending 12,000 gold every encounter to bring your party up to snuff, that is over the top and you should talk to your DM about it.

[sreservoir]

right, right, ability drain. if you can get someone who can cast heal, that doesn't have material component cost, but higher-level.

you say you already have the caster? what level is it?

[Seerow]

right, right, ability drain. if you can get someone who can cast heal, that doesn't have material component cost, but higher-level.

you say you already have the caster? what level is it?

It's level five.


Thanks. Trying to figure something out - right now we need at least 12000 gold total for 7 restoration spells and a raise dead. Need to add up what we have, but I don't think our level 5 party has anywhere near that without making the melee give up their magic weapons.

[WarKitty]

You mention most of this came about as a result of the DM retooling a banshee for a lower level, and forgetting to modify some things.

Is this sort of thing a regular occurrence? If not, it was probably an accident, you can suck up a high recuperation cost once every once in a while. If this is a regular thing, and you are spending 12,000 gold every encounter to bring your party up to snuff, that is over the top and you should talk to your DM about it.

It is a one-off thing. The issue is I'm not sure we can even suck it up this time. We got dropped in two naked melee characters recently, so we already need to spend gold to get them properly outfitted. It's coming down to "whose weapon or armor do we sell to pay for this"? Which means crippling one of the non-casters until we can make it back up...


right, right, ability drain. if you can get someone who can cast heal, that doesn't have material component cost, but higher-level.

you say you already have the caster? what level is it?

Just hit level 6. And Heal still doesn't handle ability drain or negative levels.

[true_shinken]

So... make a quest to get the materials? Doesn't sound so complicated.
You are basically getting an excuse to play a D&D bank heist! How awesome is that?

[Seerow]

So... make a quest to get the materials? Doesn't sound so complicated.
You are basically getting an excuse to play a D&D bank heist! How awesome is that?

A bank heist while down a character and everyone low on stats isn't exactly fun...



It is a one-off thing. The issue is I'm not sure we can even suck it up this time. We got dropped in two naked melee characters recently, so we already need to spend gold to get them properly outfitted. It's coming down to "whose weapon or armor do we sell to pay for this"? Which means crippling one of the non-casters until we can make it back up...

Is it out of the question for the dead character to reroll? I'd assume he's reasonably attached to the character if you guys are wanting to rez him, but bringing in a fresh character seems like it would probably be the easier way of doing things, as it cuts your cost requirements from 12k to 7k, a fair bit more manageable.

Alternatively, why is it you're needing to sell weapons or armor? Do the casters not have any magic items at all? Are weapons and armor the only magic items you've found? By level 5, everyone in the party should have at least 1-2 low level magic items. I can understand fresh players who were dropped in naked as you mentioned (though that is kind of mean for a DM to drop in a 5th level character naked imo, especially if the following few encounters didn't have sufficient extra loot to bring him up to speed), but surely the rest of the party must have something of value besides armor and weapons?

[WarKitty]

Ok I misread the costs, so we're only paying 7000 total. Still, most of our magic items are weapons and armor. The casters do have a few items but the expensive stuff is on the melee.

[true_shinken]

Ok I misread the costs, so we're only paying 7000 total. Still, most of our magic items are weapons and armor. The casters do have a few items but the expensive stuff is on the melee.

Don't you have actual gold? You should always keep some gold, don't burn it all on equipment.

[WarKitty]

Don't you have actual gold? You should always keep some gold, don't burn it all on equipment.

We don't get gold. We just get items.

[tyckspoon]

Don't you have actual gold? You should always keep some gold, don't burn it all on equipment.

With the mention of having some party members dropped into the party 'naked', I would hazard a guess that a lot of the party's negotiable wealth was already invested into getting those characters enough equipment to be useful.

[true_shinken]

We don't get gold. We just get items.

Well, that is the problem. If you have to sell your magic items, it feels like you are sacrificing something. If you just spend gold, it feels like you are... well, spending gold.

[Coidzor]

My guess is he didn't think things through. He was trying to modify the 3.5 banshee to be appropriate (the normal one is a CR 17). He remembered to remove the death wail, plus we were all incorporeal at the time so as to remove the whole 50% damage thing. Probably didn't think about the increased cost of restoration spells when converting. That and we almost never get gold drops, just loot to resell. And we're still needing more items for the melee.

Now, if we can figure out how to break WBL...

He broke it. He fixes it.

If he won't, I advise finding out what he's attached to in the game world and going hunting for it as the sidequest to get the money you need to play the game.

Or sell orphans to the Neogi.

Or have Deadguy McBeingkeptoutoftheGameington roll up an artificer.

[WarKitty]

He broke it. He fixes it.

If he won't, I advise finding out what he's attached to in the game world and going hunting for it as the sidequest to get the money you need to play the game.

Or sell orphans to the Neogi.

To be fair the restoration cost I misread, so that's no longer a problem. We just need to find the gold for a raise dead plus two castings of restoration to remove negative levels.

[Coidzor]

Just noticed something. Hope none of your guys die of Ability Drain, since the DM is so fond of it, you can't use Raise Dead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/raise-dead) to fix that one.

Or remind him of that so he doesn't blindly force you into a corner.

[Safety Sword]

Sounds like your DM wants you to find a "creative" source of funds.

Or maybe adventuring is all too hard and you should all retire, sit on the porch and tell stories about the "good old days".