[3.5] Versatile Manifester?

[Kyouhen]

So I was just wondering, is there a feat like Versatile Spellcaster for Psions? I know there probably isn't a feat exactly like it as it wouldn't translate well, but what I'm looking for is anything that lets me get my hands on higher-level powers earlier than normal.

[Psyren]

Ardents sort of have it built-in (provided you are a multiclass character); otherwise, none that I can think of.

[Cog]

(provided you are a multiclass character)
Or if they have Overchannel.

But, yeah, that use of Versatile Spellcaster isn't something I think was entirely intended; they likely had sorcerers in mind, not beguilers and warmages. I'd be surprised if there was an equivalent, and it'd likely resemble Precocious Apprentice instead if there were.

[Kyouhen]

Hmmm, an Ardent multiclass with Practised Manifester would work... As would Overchannel.

And yeah, Pecocious Apprentice was another feat I was looking for something similar to, but best I could find were Host Feats and those aren't quite on par with the general power increase Overchannel would get me.

[HunterOfJello]

Versatile Spellcaster doesn't let you get higher level spells early. Precocious Apprentice does for low levels, but that's it.

I stand corrected. Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell Metamagic allows you to cast spells you already know at a higher level. Ex: Using up two 1st level slots to cast Charm Person as a 2nd level spell.

However, it still does not allow you to cast spells that you haven't learned yet.

[Draz74]

As far as I'm concerned, all Psionic classes get Versatile Manifester for free. That's one of their greatest features -- they get to choose how many PP to spend on high vs. low-level powers.


Versatile Spellcaster doesn't let you get higher level spells early.

It arguably does in the case of Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warmages. It's become pretty standard early-entry cheese. I suspect some people forget that V.S. ever actually had another use ...

[Zeful]

It arguably does in the case of Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warmages. It's become pretty standard early-entry cheese. I suspect some people forget that V.S. ever actually had another use ...

And what's the "arguable" part of it? Is spell access actually linked to their spell slots rather than their Caster level?

[HunterOfJello]

And what's the "arguable" part of it? Is spell access actually linked to their spell slots rather than their Caster level?

You can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a spell with a +1 metamagic on it by using up two lower level spell slots, even though you don't have access to the higher level spells. It's mentioned in the 3.5e Main FAQ.

An example would be a level that a level 1 Sorcerer only knows 1st and 0 level spells. However, if he has the Extend Spell feat, he can use up two 1st level spell slots to cast Extended Summon Monster I (assuming he already knows the spell Summon Monster I).

Because of this, some people argue that spellcasters with a fixed spell list should be able to use lower level slots to cast higher level spells. However, knowing how to cast a 2nd level spell and how to use Extend Spell is not the same as knowing how to cast a 3rd level spell.

~

If you read the listing for Versatile Spellcaster is says that you can sacrifice lower level spells, "to cast a spell you know."

Under the Beguiler listing of the PHB2 it says at the end of page 6 that, "When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list."

So, you can only cast spells that you know. You don't know a spell until you gain access to it by reaching the appropriate class level. Therefore, Versatile Spellcaster doesn't allow you to cast higher level spells that you don't know yet.

[olentu]

Regardless of the whole beguiler thing and metamagic thing for which I will not at this time state my position to avoid discussion it is possible to know spells of a higher level then can be cast normally. I believe there are several feats that add spells of all levels to spells known. I also vaguely recall that wizards also have no restriction on the level of spell they can learn and if I recall correctly then they can know spells of a higher level then can be cast normally. These spells could then be cast with versatile spellcaster either by taking a feat with a spontaneous caster or by being one of the variety of wizard that can cast spontaneously.

Either way with some work one can cast higher spells then normal.

I am still for the moment staying out of the knows everything casters and metamagic.

[Zeful]

If you read the listing for Versatile Spellcaster is says that you can sacrifice lower level spells, "to cast a spell you know."

Under the Beguiler listing of the PHB2 it says at the end of page 6 that, "When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list."

Well my days of taking the TO community seriously are coming to a middle.

There's not much I can say about that.

[Kyouhen]

Regardless of the whole beguiler thing and metamagic thing for which I will not at this time state my position to avoid discussion it is possible to know spells of a higher level then can be cast normally. I believe there are several feats that add spells of all levels to spells known. I also vaguely recall that wizards also have no restriction on the level of spell they can learn and if I recall correctly then they can know spells of a higher level then can be cast normally. These spells could then be cast with versatile spellcaster either by taking a feat with a spontaneous caster or by being one of the variety of wizard that can cast spontaneously.

Either way with some work one can cast higher spells then normal.

I am still for the moment staying out of the knows everything casters and metamagic.

That's basically exactly what I meant when I mentioned Versatile Spellcaster. I know a higher level spell but lack the slots to cast it normally. What I want to know is if there's a way to learn higher level Psionic powers and gain a way to cast them.

Of course I completely forgot the whole thing where you can't spend more power points on a power than your manifester level. Practiced Manifester while multiclassing would let me get them if I go Ardent, Overchannel probably would as well, but would there be any way to do the same with a Psion?

[BeholderSlayer]

Well my days of taking the TO community seriously are coming to a middle.

There's not much I can say about that.

That's not really even TO. IIRC it is on record from WotC that early entries with Versatile Spellcaster for certain classes is A-OK.

Where is it? I don't remember. I just remember reading it.

[sreservoir]

can't you just heighten something anyway?

[tyckspoon]

That's not really even TO. IIRC it is on record from WotC that early entries with Versatile Spellcaster for certain classes is A-OK.

Where is it? I don't remember. I just remember reading it.

Two different things- there's early access to a higher spell level, and there's early access to all the spells a fixed-list caster knows. The first one is pretty cut and dried; Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell gives you that. Versatile Spellcaster alone is arguable, but Heighten Spell exists specifically to make something a higher spell level.. so a 1st level spell Versatile'd and Heighten'd to 2 is a 2nd level spell for any purpose the game ever deals with. It also eats the 2 feats you will likely have at 1st level unless you are playing with/resort to Flaws, so whatever you're aiming at had better not have any pre-req feats, and the skill requirements have to be low.. overall, I find it a fair entry technique.

And then there's Beguilers and Warmages and Dread Necros. I personally think the trick gives them full access to their spells, but it's shakier than the spell-level early access trick, and significantly overpowered for the trade of one feat, so it's quite understandable to say "no, that one doesn't work in my game."

[FMArthur]

A Psion has no options for counting as knowing higher level powers as far as I know. You can Overchannel or use Linked Power + Metapower to manifest powers you know at augmented power levels equivalent to powers above what they know, but unlike Heighten Spell they never ever count as being of higher level for doing so and it doesn't let them learn anything above their normal level on level-up, either.

[Eloel]

Two different things- there's early access to a higher spell level, and there's early access to all the spells a fixed-list caster knows. The first one is pretty cut and dried; Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell gives you that. Versatile Spellcaster alone is arguable, but Heighten Spell exists specifically to make something a higher spell level.. so a 1st level spell Versatile'd and Heighten'd to 2 is a 2nd level spell for any purpose the game ever deals with. It also eats the 2 feats you will likely have at 1st level unless you are playing with/resort to Flaws, so whatever you're aiming at had better not have any pre-req feats, and the skill requirements have to be low.. overall, I find it a fair entry technique.


That gives you Wizard2/Archivist1 into Mystic Theurge. How desirable that is, is discussable.

[Kyouhen]

That gives you Wizard2/Archivist1 into Mystic Theurge. How desirable that is, is discussable.

Doesn't Versatile Spellcaster require the ability to spontaneously cast spells though?

[sreservoir]

Doesn't Versatile Spellcaster require the ability to spontaneously cast spells though?

use the wizard acf that gives spontaneous summonings.

[Zeful]

That's not really even TO. IIRC it is on record from WotC that early entries with Versatile Spellcaster for certain classes is A-OK.

Where is it? I don't remember. I just remember reading it.

It's in the FAQ, which is simply glorified houserules to most people. But even still, spell access is strictly limited by class level not spell slots, otherwise classes with "When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list." would start the game with access to 4th level spells (after all an 18 gives access to 4th level spell slots from 1st level, and the logic is the same), so using Versatile Spellcaster for early access shenanigans is the WoTC clearly not knowing their own rules, nothing more.

[faceroll]

Versatile Spellcaster doesn't let you get higher level spells early. Precocious Apprentice does for low levels, but that's it.

Coupled with Heighten Spell and a casting class like Warmage, it does.


A Psion has no options for counting as knowing higher level powers as far as I know. You can Overchannel or use Linked Power + Metapower to manifest powers you know at augmented power levels equivalent to powers above what they know, but unlike Heighten Spell they never ever count as being of higher level for doing so and it doesn't let them learn anything above their normal level on level-up, either.

The only thing I'm aware of is a class ability of the Metamind, a dual psion/arcane caster prestige class, and that works like heighten spell.

[Zeful]

Coupled with Heighten Spell and a casting class like Warmage, it does.

No it doesn't, or else he would just need heighten spell and a positive casting modifier.

Spell access is tied to class level not spell slots.

[faceroll]

No it doesn't, or else he would just need heighten spell and a positive casting modifier.

Spell access is tied to class level not spell slots.

Nope. Spell access is tied to this:
"When a beguiler/dread necromancer/warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all spells for that level listed on his spell list."

Heighten spell has the following wording:
"Benefit

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. "

When you have two spells available, heighten spell + versatile spell caster lets you cast the next highest level of spell, which means you automatically know all those spells on your spell list. You can then use versatile spellcaster and 2 spell slots to cast one of them.

[dextercorvia]

It's in the FAQ, which is simply glorified houserules to most people. But even still, spell access is strictly limited by class level not spell slots, otherwise classes with "When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list." would start the game with access to 4th level spells (after all an 18 gives access to 4th level spell slots from 1st level, and the logic is the same), so using Versatile Spellcaster for early access shenanigans is the WoTC clearly not knowing their own rules, nothing more.

The bonus spells for high ability score specify that they are tied to class level. Other effects like Versatile spellcaster make no such links.


Doesn't Versatile Spellcaster require the ability to spontaneously cast spells though? The Spontaneous Divination ACF (as was mentioned) is one way for a wizard to cast spells spontaneously. There are at least two feats: Alacritous Cogitation (CM) and Uncanny Forethough (EoE) that allow a wizard to cast spells spontaneously.

[HunterOfJello]

When you have two spells available, heighten spell + versatile spell caster lets you cast the next highest level of spell, which means you automatically know all those spells on your spell list. You can then use versatile spellcaster and 2 spell slots to cast one of them.

Rules Compendium pg. 139

"Spontaneous casters gain spells by attaining levels in their class. They never gain spells any other way."

It then goes on to mention the classes that know all the spells on their spell list, so this includes Beguilers, Warmages and Dread Necros.

~

However, this does complicate matters of General vs. Specific when the Rules Compendium goes and uses a word like "never".

This could be construed to mean that you can only learn new spells when you level up. This would make sense for Advanced Learning class features and feats like Arcane Disciple. It would also mean that after you have leveled up and suddenly cast a 1st level spell boosted by Heighten Magic to become a 2nd level spell, you don't suddenly and magically gain access to a whole list of Non-Heightened 2nd level spells.

Still, this ends up as a matter of personal opinion.

Also, I think Wizards of the Coast is trolling us with the entire ordeal.

[dextercorvia]

Rules Compendium pg. 139

"Spontaneous casters gain spells by attaining levels in their class. They never gain spells any other way."

It then goes on to mention the classes that know all the spells on their spell list, so this includes Beguilers, Warmages and Dread Necros.

~



Unless the specific of Feats/PrC's is allowed to trump this General rule, then PrC's would cease to work for granting spells known to spontaneous casters, since they aren't actually attaining levels in Sorcerer or whatnot. What about feats like Extra Spell?

[Psyren]

Despite the use of "never," that is still a general rule. Feats, PrCs, Knowstones etc. are the exception to that general rule.

The definition's purpose was merely to distinguish spontaneous and prepared casters. Which is in itself ridiculous, since spontaneous vs. prepared casting is a separate distinction from whether spells can be learned without gaining levels or not.

[faceroll]

Unless the specific of Feats/PrC's is allowed to trump this General rule, then PrC's would cease to work for granting spells known to spontaneous casters, since they aren't actually attaining levels in Sorcerer or whatnot. What about feats like Extra Spell?

I think we're getting trolled.

[dextercorvia]

I think we're getting trolled.


Edit: I misunderstood.

[faceroll]

By me? I was using rhetoric to argue that the never in the RC quote can't actually mean never.

Besides, it's against forum rules to accuse someone of trolling.


Also, I think Wizards of the Coast is trolling us with the entire ordeal.

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[dextercorvia]

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That's what I get for being overly literal and taking everything personally. Sorry.