Help needed with Good aligned Necro PrC

[Grelna the Blue]

I play a necromancer 11/rogue 2 who started (back in 3.0) as neutral and who has turned almost completely to neutral good. She doesn't create undead, she doesn't summon them (any more), and she only consorts with them if you count dispatching them as consorting. I love this character, but although flavorwise she's a lot of fun, it can't be denied that good-aligned necromancers don't get much love from the game designers.

She's in a Pathfinder game now, and I'd like to find or design a PrC that focuses on battling undead. It occurred to me that perhaps there might be some way to innovatively use the Turning attempts possessed by Pathfinder Necromancers (those that don't Command Undead, anyway) for something. Has anyone got any suggestions?

Incidentally, I am fully alive to how horribly unoptimized this character is. Truly. I'm not looking for a way to make her uber vs everything. Far too late for that and I'm not that interested anyway. I don't play with optimizers, and she's quite good at being a support mage/battlefield controller vs normal opponents. After all, it's hard to make a wizard useless. However, my take on necromancers has always been that they are specialists in the forces of life and death, with most concentrating on death. Unfortunately, a standard-issue death-oriented necromancer is much better at fighting undead by virtue of having minions and the ability to control the enemy than my life-oriented character is. In fact, right now any reasonably competent invoker or conjuror is far better at fighting undead just by blasting them than I am as a life-oriented necromancer, and that seems wrong. I'm not looking for specific feats that would make any wizard taking them good vs. undead, I'm hoping to find or come up with some build or PrC that will allow necromancers to be better at it.

Thanks for reading. Any suggestions?

[SurlySeraph]

Fort-save-requiring spells that function against undead are pretty effective. Disintegrate is nice, and Undeath to Death would be great if not for the ridiculously expensive material component (it might be worth asking your GM to change it to a material focus instead).

You might want to take Energize Spell (from Libris Mortis), a +1 metamagic that makes your spells do 50% extra damage to undead and 50% less to living creatures and objects. Finding a way to get the Sun domain granted power would also help; I can't think of a way for an arcane caster to get it off the top of my head, though. In any case, Arcane Disciple (Sun) would help.

A few spells that might help (all Spell Compendium) are Life Bolt, Shroud of Undeath, Greater Disrupt Undead, and Incorporeal Nova. There's also a spell somewhere that strips away undead immunities, but I can't remember what it's called.

Arcane Thesis (Greater Disrupt Undead) and then applying Energize Spell, Empower, Split Ray, etc. would make for a pretty good anti-undead build.

I can't think of any specifically anti-undead arcane PrCs off the top of my head, though Sacred Exorcist is always useful. For homebrewing an anti-undead PrC, something like letting you apply Energize Spell for free, the Sun domain granted power multiple times per day, removing the material component from Undeath to Death, and perhaps granting permanent Hide from Undead later upgraded to permanent Veil of Undeath might work well.

[Grelna the Blue]

Fort-save-requiring spells that function against undead are pretty effective. Disintegrate is nice, and Undeath to Death would be great if not for the ridiculously expensive material component (it might be worth asking your GM to change it to a material focus instead).

You might want to take Energize Spell (from Libris Mortis), a +1 metamagic that makes your spells do 50% extra damage to undead and 50% less to living creatures and objects. Finding a way to get the Sun domain granted power would also help; I can't think of a way for an arcane caster to get it off the top of my head, though. In any case, Arcane Disciple (Sun) would help.

A few spells that might help (all Spell Compendium) are Life Bolt, Shroud of Undeath, Greater Disrupt Undead, and Incorporeal Nova. There's also a spell somewhere that strips away undead immunities, but I can't remember what it's called.

Arcane Thesis (Greater Disrupt Undead) and then applying Energize Spell, Empower, Split Ray, etc. would make for a pretty good anti-undead build.

I can't think of any specifically anti-undead arcane PrCs off the top of my head, though Sacred Exorcist is always useful. For homebrewing an anti-undead PrC, something like letting you apply Energize Spell for free, the Sun domain granted power multiple times per day, removing the material component from Undeath to Death, and perhaps granting permanent Hide from Undead later upgraded to permanent Veil of Undeath might work well.

The character does have Shroud of Undeath and Incorporeal Nova, as well as Negative Energy Wave (from 3.0 Tome and Blood). Looking at Greater Disrupt Undead, I feel as if the Undead Hunter class got shortchanged. That spell is a ranged touch attack that grants a save for half for the same damage (vs. undead only) as any one of the Lesser Orb spells will do against any opponent with no save. It does have the saving grace that there is no 50% miss chance vs. incorporeal, but I think Magic Missile might have the edge there (autohits and can be spread between opponents).


I can't think of any specifically anti-undead arcane PrCs off the top of my head, though Sacred Exorcist is always useful.

Yeah, Sacred Exorcist and Paragnostic Apostle are pretty much it for would-be undead hunter mages, so far as I can tell. The problem is that the big thing they grant is Turn Undead. This is in no way as powerful an ability as Command Undead, as at the higher levels it doesn't improve as fast as the Turn Resistance most powerful undead have. With Command Undead, at least you can send your lesser minions in as shock troops. Not to mention, driving undead away is not the goal--killing them is, and at this one very specialized goal I'd like her to outshine a normal blaster mage.

I like your idea of incorporating the Sun Domain powers (a bit different in Pathfinder, but still worthwhile) and some of the other suggestions you had for homebrewing. I'm sort of leaning towards a modified version of Divine Metamagic that can use the Turn Undead attempts Necromancers get for use for very specific metamagic feats (like Energize Spell) that only apply when used vs. undead. However, I see a few design challenges.

[SurlySeraph]

The version of Greater Disrupt in the SpC doesn't have a save, and lets you hit a second target with it (for 1/2 damage) if it destroys the first target. It's better than the orbs against undead if the hit destroys the first target.

What design challenges can you see? Perhaps we can help figure them out.

[Cieyrin]

Finding a way to get the Sun domain granted power would also help; I can't think of a way for an arcane caster to get it off the top of my head, though.

Planar Touchstone(Catalogues of Enlightenment) from the Planar Handbook will handle that quite easily, actually. Don't even need to visit the site, just need a piece from it, which I'm sure Sigil does a fairly brisk business in.

[Grelna the Blue]

Thank you for directing my attention to the SC version! I don't understand how I'd managed to overlook it so long. Normally, my character uses Manyjaws as her 3rd level attack spell of choice, and will probably continue to do so, but this spell has the advantage of being an actual necromantic spell she can use as a 3rd level bonus spell (Vampiric Touch is less useful when you expect to be facing undead and dislike the idea of killing a cow or something beforehand just for the extra hp).


What design challenges can you see? Perhaps we can help figure them out.

Well, three mainly. First, there's the question of which feats to allow this modified Divine Metamagic (DMM) to enable. If we took it as a given that the DMM could only function vs. undead, would any feats work or only feats from a specified list?

Second, the question of whether specific feats would actually be granted by the PrC and, if so, whether they'd all be available from the start or how the feat progression worked. If they were granted by the PrC, could they be used in the normal fashion (without DMM) or only with it? If they could be used without DMM, would they work vs. things other than undead? Depending on the feats and the number of them granted by the PrC (if any), saying that they were usable in the normal fashion vs everything might not be particularly OP. For example, Consecrate Spell and Purify Spell. On the other hand, Maximize Spell is fairly mighty as a bonus feat, but [wistfully] it'd be nice to be able to pump up damage to undead from a spell with positive energy.

Third, entry requirements for the PrC and whether it would be open to clerics, paladins, and other channelers of positive energy.

[Grelna the Blue]

Planar Touchstone(Catalogues of Enlightenment) from the Planar Handbook will handle that quite easily, actually. Don't even need to visit the site, just need a piece from it, which I'm sure Sigil does a fairly brisk business in.

Thanks! I'll look into that whether I create and enter this PrC or not.

[Psyren]

If you want to be good, but still stick to your old "undead creation" playstyle, there are ways. The simplest is to be a Hellbred Necromancer - Evil Exception will protect your alignment no matter how much reanimation you do.

A more complex (and imo, cooler) solution is to turn to Incarnum. The Necrocarnate PrC lets you create zombies; however, there is a good-aligned adaptation called Vivicarnate (MoI pg. 135) with the same class features, minus all the evil and squick. Instead of reanimating corpses, you are redeeming them by letting them join you in the fight against evil.

[Grelna the Blue]

Okay, I tried to incorporate some of these ideas in a PrC I posted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179097) over on the Homebrew Design forum. So far, no response. I don't know if the basic concept is uninteresting to people or if what I've put together is so lame that people are refraining for fear of getting dragged into conversation with an idiot.

Regardless, if anyone has any suggestions or criticism, either of the concept or the execution, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks.

[WarrenZig]

I think i could be helpful, but i don't know a damned thing about pathfinder and judging from your prc that knowledge would probably clear up a few points.

[Grelna the Blue]

I think i could be helpful, but i don't know a damned thing about pathfinder and judging from your prc that knowledge would probably clear up a few points.

Hm, well, it's a LOT like 3.5. As I recall, Paizo bought the rights to D&D 3.5 after Hasbro decided to make 4th Ed. and they tweaked it only a bit. It's far more back-compatible with 3.5 than 3rd Ed was with 2nd Ed. Not every feat or spell from 3.5 will work without adaptation, but most will. A few of the classes got big power-ups. Paladins probably made out the best. The biggest differences with the wizard class are the increased hit dice (d6, instead of d4), that they significantly nerfed several of the more gamebreaking spells (e.g., Polymorph), made Concentration checks significantly harder (and Concentration itself is now a modified level check), and gave the specialists some nice secondary abilities that scale with level. Iit's fairly pointless to play a universalist in PF, as their abilities really aren't worth it. Necromancers get the ability to Channel Energy to either Turn or Command Undead (pick one at character creation) just as Clerics can in 3.5.

Clerics can do more with Channel Energy, although they actually only get the ability to Turn or Command Undead with their channel attempts if they spend a feat on it. However, if they channel positive energy they can choose to either heal within a 30' radius or do damage to undead. The healing is nice, allowing them to mass heal even at low level (the amount scales with level), but the damage against undead isn't usually significant enough to matter very much except against the weakest undead or against very large numbers of them, esp. as there is a save for half. If they channel negative energy, they either heal undead or harm the living within 30' (again with a save).

As in straight 3.5 Ed., there's still more for neutral and evil necromancers to do than there is for good necromancers. I'm trying to rectify that.

[WarrenZig]

as a specialist wizard you have peaked my interest, i must find this stuff and throw it at my DMs face....he's making a new game soon anyway.

Few questions though.

1. Did they put Healing spells into Necromancy or are they still in Conjuration? Because the whole definition of necromancy was the manipulation of LIFE.

2. The prc really seems like it was made for a divine caster than an arcane one by alot, the prc feature Channel Energy really seems like a bit of a slap to the face to arcane casters if it works like it's read.

3. Does positive energy resistance have any other effect aside from negating positive energy damage form your abilities? the wording about it working on creatures harmed by positive energy made me think about it.

4. Does pathfinder include positive energy based attack spells? Because the Positive Reinforcement ability seems a little small if it's only +2 per dice for spells that are positive energy based by default.

Also it may be me, but it seems a tad too focused, as most of it's abilities become useless when used against a living target.

[Grelna the Blue]

as a specialist wizard you have peaked my interest, i must find this stuff and throw it at my DMs face....he's making a new game soon anyway.

Few questions though.

1. Did they put Healing spells into Necromancy or are they still in Conjuration? Because the whole definition of necromancy was the manipulation of LIFE.

2. The prc really seems like it was made for a divine caster than an arcane one by alot, the prc feature Channel Energy really seems like a bit of a slap to the face to arcane casters if it works like it's read.

3. Does positive energy resistance have any other effect aside from negating positive energy damage form your abilities? the wording about it working on creatures harmed by positive energy made me think about it.

4. Does pathfinder include positive energy based attack spells? Because the Positive Reinforcement ability seems a little small if it's only +2 per dice for spells that are positive energy based by default.

Also it may be me, but it seems a tad too focused, as most of it's abilities become useless when used against a living target.

Good questions.

1. No, they retained the incredibly stupid 3.5 change from earlier editions that clerical healing is conjuration (back in 2nd Ed it used to be necromancy). PF didn't give arcane necromancy any help in that regard either, as they didn't address arcane healing at all. And yet, in 3.5, splatbook arcane spells like Healing Touch (in the Spell Compendium) ARE necromancy. Given that most spells from 3.5 can be brought across, I am going to assume that arcane healing (limited though the options are) is still necromancy. Because I agree with you.

2. Pathfinder Necromancers technically do get Channel Energy. I mean, it's specified that they do, but that the only use they can put it to is either to power Turn Undead attempts or Command Undead attempts. They don't heal or harm with it. That's the biggest reason I'm trying to come up with a PrC for good necromancers. It's obviously much more of a powerup for a caster faced with undead to be able to attack/block them with his own undead minions and possibly control them then it is to possibly temporarily drive them off, and undead minions are useful all the time, whereas Turn Undead is very situational. That said, clerics would definitely be more likely to enter this PrC.

3. I put that wording about other creatures as an afterthought, really. Positive energy in its raw state doesn't hurt very many creatures. Aside from a few fiends that might be specifically harmed by positive energy (I think there are a few undead-themed fiends like that), I was thinking mostly of villainous casters who have taken the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat.

4. Very, very true. However, although my character was (and is) perfectly willing to research those spells herself, my GM has made it a plot point that if my character completes her current mission, she can gain access to training that would include a number of converted 2nd Ed. spells like Nystul's Blazing Beam and Nystul's Lightburst that are already very effective vs. undead. I don't yet know what school they'll be put in, but they do directly draw upon positive energy. Also, the Lore of the White Flame feature gained at 5th, 7th, and 9th levels of this PrC (assuming it's approved) could be used to get spells like Sunbeam that are not normally on the wizard spell list.

As for being over-focused, yes. In all situations not involving undead, what you're looking at is a mage with cleric Hit Dice, saves, and BAB, the Endurance feat and 3 spells that mages don't normally have. There are very definitely stronger all-around PrCs out there. However, I was trying to create a focused PrC that would allow necromancers to wield the Light Side of the Force, which is a sorta focused idea. However, I would welcome any suggestions you might have. This is my second try at this (the first was absolutely awful), and I'm not at all confident it will be my last.