Can someone explain to me why incantrix is so strong?

[randomhero00]

Now I know it gives good abilities (less levels used when metamagicing) without having to give up stuff. But I don't see it on the level of cancer mage, tainted scholar, action breaking psions, planar sheperds, IotSFV, etc.

Oh would shadowmage make that list you think?

While we're at it, how about a list, ordered, from most broken to least. I'd put incantrix at the bottom, and probably planar shepard abusing planar time bubble thingy at the top. No idea about the classes in the middle though.

[JonRG]

:smallconfused: Cancer Mage is broken? I thought it just made you gross and unbearable to be around.

[randomhero00]

:smallconfused: Cancer Mage is broken? I thought it just made you gross and unbearable to be around.

I don't remember (cause I avoid the broken classes usually) but there's some loop in there that makes em OP if interpreted a certain way.

PS In builds, I've seen mention of taking abjurer...is that a class or do they just mean a wizard focused on abjuration?

[mostlyharmful]

Stack enough buffs onto yourself with +0 persistant stuff that should last 1round or rounds/level, stack +0 or +1 metas onto a spell with a decent base and you can crank out ubercharger level damage at range with status effects and a touch attack... those are the two easiest.

Tippy built a fairly uber level 18 orbizard called cindy a few years ago, there was a time on this forum when she was the boundary between TO and broken, gave us a good guide for where a CR 20 homebrew was stepping over if it couldn't even vaguely challeng/impede Cindy.

Stack these on a wizard:
1. Greater Ironguard
2. Superior Invisibility
3. Non-Detection
4. Ghostform
5. Shapechange
6. Mindblank
7. Greater Blink
8. Ray Deflection
9. Foresight
10. Anticipate Teleport
11. Contingency

And there's not a whole lot that can find/hurt/kill it.

then take one spell (Orb of Fire's mine) and meta it into instant death:

Since Incantatrix is on the cards we've got access to the borked meta reducers. Take Spell Thesis and maybe Easy Metamagic...

You can turn most any thing to dust with a Twinned, Fell Draining, Silent, Stilled, Invisible, Maximized, Searing, Energy Admixtured, etc... orb of fire...


Also, if you still don't believe then take a look at the madness contained here! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794)

[randomhero00]

Stack enough buffs onto yourself with +0 persistant stuff that should last 1round or rounds/level, stack +0 or +1 metas onto a spell with a decent base and you can crank out ubercharger level damage at range with status effects and a touch attack... those are the two easiest.

eh, how do you get it down to +0 though? Reading over it that doesn't seem possibly for persist.

edit: hmmm could shadowcaster and incantrix be combined in gestalt for a super caster?

[PersonMan]

Yes, abjuration-focused wizards are abjurers.

[Zeful]

What makes Incantrix powerful is that you could build a metamagic build that could cast a heavily metamagiced Enervation as a 1st level spell (Enervation's 4th level) and drop over 100 negative levels. If it wasn't immune to negative energy and not stupidly epic, it would raise the next night as a ghoul and proceed to create the wrightpocolypse effectively destroying any setting not protected by Gary Stu- I mean Elminster.

After the errata, you can get the same effect for a 4th level spell instead of a first.

[randomhero00]

I'm not understanding how you do that though....I just see -1 or so to your normal metamagic of like +4 or something so that it becomes a +3. How do you stack it?

I must be reading something wrong.

[olentu]

:smallconfused: Cancer Mage is broken? I thought it just made you gross and unbearable to be around.

I believe that as a feature of the class one takes no negative effects fron diseases. There diseases that grant cumulative bonuses and being a cancer mage one can ignore the penalties. The only ones that come to mind are festering anger and vile rigidity that grant strength and natural armor respectively. So one gets those infections and gains +billion strength and +zillion natural armor.

[randomhero00]

I believe that as a feature of the class one takes no negative effects fron diseases. There diseases that grant cumulative bonuses and being a cancer mage one can ignore the penalties. The only ones that come to mind are festering anger and vile rigidity that grant strength and natural armor respectively. So one gets those infections and gains +billion strength and +zillion natural armor.

It was something like that. Something similar to tainted scholar where you build up a negative effect for huge bonuses...but its not really a negative affect because of easily get arounds.

[Runestar]

I'm not understanding how you do that though....I just see -1 or so to your normal metamagic of like +4 or something so that it becomes a +3. How do you stack it?

First off, the class gives you 4 free metamagic feats, which more than reimburses you for your investment.

You then crank your spellcraft up to insane lvs (quite easy to achieve, really), then use metamagic effect to modify spells already in place.

For example, a wiz5/incantatrix10/archmage2 could first cast shapechange, then attempt to persist it with a DC60 spellcraft check. There are many other spells which are ridiculously powerful when persisted, such as wraithstrike or bite of the werebear (using ring of spell-storing to pass them around), even divine power on a cleric.

[Zeful]

I'm not understanding how you do that though....I just see -1 or so to your normal metamagic of like +4 or something so that it becomes a +3. How do you stack it?

I must be reading something wrong.

By getting lots of -1s. There's a feat that applies -1 cost adjustment to every metamagic feat applied to a specific spell (Say enervation), then there's one to apply a -1 to each for a specific metamagic feat, then there are metamagic feats that have +0 cost (now a -1) and some really good ones that are +1 and worth taking the reduction feat for it (another -1) meaning that with the right feats it's possible to get more reduction than you can put positive costs on.

[mostlyharmful]

eh, how do you get it down to +0 though? Reading over it that doesn't seem possibly for persist.

edit: hmmm could shadowcaster and incantrix be combined in gestalt for a super caster?

There's FOUR overpowered abilities of the incantatrix.

for persisted spells you want Metamagic effect. Get a few bonuses on the skill roll and add any meta you know to a spell already cast for free....

[mostlyharmful]

By getting lots of -1s. There's a feat that applies -1 cost adjustment to every metamagic feat applied to a specific spell (Say enervation), then there's one to apply a -1 to each for a specific metamagic feat, then there are metamagic feats that have +0 cost (now a -1) and some really good ones that are +1 and worth taking the reduction feat for it (another -1) meaning that with the right feats it's possible to get more reduction than you can put positive costs on.

costs a lot of feat investment though.. only major drawback if you wanted to take your character into a feat intensive PrC it's tricky to balence without Dark Chaos shuffle silliness.

[Radar]

I'm not understanding how you do that though....I just see -1 or so to your normal metamagic of like +4 or something so that it becomes a +3. How do you stack it?

I must be reading something wrong.
You read it right, just not realise, what happens, when you start stacking +0 metamagics - those get this -1 as well therefore mitigating other metamagics. If you go as far as getting Arcane Thesis for a spell of doom of your choice, then things get even more silly.
Incatatrix has also the ability to spontaneously stack a metamagic feat on a spell, while it is cast (used to persist a bucketload of spells with a simple Spellcraft check). These to abilities are complimented by a bunch of bonus feats, but it's just a small detail.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not understanding how you do that though....I just see -1 or so to your normal metamagic of like +4 or something so that it becomes a +3. How do you stack it?

I must be reading something wrong.

As others have mentioned, it's the Metamagic Effect ability. It's pathetically easy to pump your Spellcraft check to absurd levels, allowing you to retroactively Persist all manner of buffs.

[FMArthur]

How do you get a massive Spellcraft bonus? It doesn't seem so easy to me. :smallconfused:

[The Glyphstone]

Because skill checks are the cheapest thing to get with items. It's not so great at low levels, but when you're up in the higher end of levels, a +30 Spellcraft item is only 90,000 gold, and wizards don't have a ton of things to buy with their cash.

At level 8, the earliest you can get Metamagic Effect without early-entry cheese, a wizard/incantatrix can sport:

+11 from skill ranks
+5 from Intelligence
+5 from an item of +5 spellcraft (2500 GP)
+2 synergy from Knowledge: Arcana
+2 from your Familiar giving Aid Another (since it has Spellcraft ranks)
+3 from Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
+3 from Greater Skill Focus (Spellcraft)

And taking 10, since you won't be doing buffs mid-combat, gives you a perfectly reliable 41 on all Spellcraft checks. Now you can apply free metamagic to any spell you want as long as the adjusted level wouldn't be higher than 7th, while using low-level slots (at that level, you'd only have 4th level slots normally, but Metamagic Effect cares not for such nonsense. That does make Persist shenanigans more difficult - but there's a lot of nice 1st-level spells with short durations that could use it.



At, say, level 17, with 9th-level spells available, you're cranking:
+20 ranks
+10 Int modifier (minimum)
+30 Spellcraft item
+2 Synergy
+2 Aid Another
and taking 10, for a check of 64. The DC to Persist a 9th level spell is only 63, and you can do this 10 times per day.

[Douglas]

The easy way is to buy or craft a custom magic item with a large bonus to spellcraft. +30 only costs 90000. For the hard way, see Team Solars in my sig (which mostlyharmful already linked to).

[Incanur]

Just having ranks + high Int goes a long way. Perhaps +29 at level 17. Add the synergy for +31. Skill Focus (free from Master Specialist and required for Archmage) makes +34. Then +5 competence from some item and +1 luck for +40. Beyond that you have spells. Moment of prescience gives up to +25 but that's expensive at an 8th-level slot. Divine insight (+15 for a 2nd-level spell) is the best if you can figure out a way to get it (a ring of spell-storing works). Heroism/greater heroism provide +2 or +4 morale.

[Starbuck_II]

I believe that as a feature of the class one takes no negative effects fron diseases. There diseases that grant cumulative bonuses and being a cancer mage one can ignore the penalties. The only ones that come to mind are festering anger and vile rigidity that grant strength and natural armor respectively. So one gets those infections and gains +billion strength and +zillion natural armor.

The worst thing? The designers must have made it on purpose as Festering Rage disease is from their same book.

So they kind of added what caused the problems.
You can say they didn't look at combos when from other books, but you should at least read your own book.

[Incanur]

Note that technically an incantatrix cannot use metamagic effect to make shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) persistent on herself because that spell removes supernatural abilities and metamagic effect is a supernatural ability. Also note that cooperative metamagic effectively does that same thing for 6+Intx2 uses total. It's considered a ridiculous class for a reason.

[The Glyphstone]

Note that technically an incantatrix cannot use metamagic effect to make shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) persistent on herself because that spell removes supernatural abilities and metamagic effect is a supernatural ability.

Correction - she can't use Metamagic Effect while shapechanged. As long as she's in her base form, she retains her own supernatural abilities, such as ME.

[mostlyharmful]

Note that technically an incantatrix cannot use metamagic effect to make shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) persistent on herself because that spell removes supernatural abilities and metamagic effect is a supernatural ability.

It's a class ability. Are you arguing that a human wizard that shapechanges to be an elf wizard can't cast spells anymore?:smallconfused:

[The Glyphstone]

It's a class ability. Are you arguing that a human wizard that shapechanges to be an elf wizard can't cast spells anymore?:smallconfused:

Tangent, but Spells aren't Supernatural Abilities. They've got their own weird category.

[sreservoir]

It's a class ability. Are you arguing that a human wizard that shapechanges to be an elf wizard can't cast spells anymore?:smallconfused:

spellcasting is not a supernatural ability.

[Incanur]

Correction - she can't use Metamagic Effect while shapechanged. As long as she's in her base form, she retains her own supernatural abilities, such as ME.

This only works if shapechange doesn't require you to assume a form immediately, which isn't 100% clear. There's no provision in the spell for returning your own form and regaining your own supernatural abilities. Many DMs would allow it, but probably not if your pulling metamagic effect tricks. Not unless it's a high-power game.

[Eldariel]

As others have mentioned, it's the Metamagic Effect ability. It's pathetically easy to pump your Spellcraft check to absurd levels, allowing you to retroactively Persist all manner of buffs.

Don't forget Cooperative Spellcasting which, when jumping through hoops or playing with "friends", does the same on a lower level. And Improved Metamagic which is basically Easy Metamagic (broken feat in and of itself) for every metamagic feat you've got, of which you have at least 5 due to being an Incantatrix.

Instant Metamagic is handy too; and the rest of the abilities, Snatch Spell, Steal Concentration (or whatever), Metamagic Spell Trigger and company are all worthy on their own.

[The Glyphstone]

Don't forget Cooperative Spellcasting which, when jumping through hoops or playing with "friends", does the same on a lower level. And Improved Metamagic which is basically Easy Metamagic (broken feat in and of itself) for every metamagic feat you've got, of which you have at least 5 due to being an Incantatrix.

Instant Metamagic is handy too; and the rest of the abilities, Snatch Spell, Steal Concentration (or whatever), Metamagic Spell Trigger and company are all worthy on their own.

Pretty much this. Incantatrixes are just free metamagic machines, and metamagic is crazy good to begin with.

[faceroll]

eh, how do you get it down to +0 though? Reading over it that doesn't seem possibly for persist.

What version are you looking at? The 3.0 is markedly weaker than the 3.5 version. The 3.0 one is online at wizards.com.

The 3.5 version lets you make spellcraft checks to ignore metamagic costs.


You read it right, just not realise, what happens, when you start stacking +0 metamagics - those get this -1 as well therefore mitigating other metamagics.

That only works for Arcane Thesis. The 3.5 incant's capstone explicitly does not let you mitigate costs below +1.

[Jack_Simth]

:smallconfused: Cancer Mage is broken? I thought it just made you gross and unbearable to be around.
Well, you only use a one-level dip in Cancer mage (and then host two particular diseases for the rest of eternity: Festering Anger and vile rigidity). The real trick with it, though, is one option of the Illumians (race) - Aeshkrau (Strength used for bonus spell slots, rather than the normal attribute). What happens when you combine neigh-infinite strength with spells-per-day based on strength?

[Greenish]

What happens when you combine neigh-infinite strength with spells-per-day based on strength?Pretty much the same that happens when you combine insane levels of taint with taint-based spellcasting. :smalltongue:

[faceroll]

Pretty much the same that happens when you combine insane levels of taint with taint-based spellcasting. :smalltongue:

You can't find a group to play in?

[Yukitsu]

Pretty much the same that happens when you combine insane levels of taint with taint-based spellcasting. :smalltongue:

IMO, taint is a bit stronger. Who needs a billion spells when 1 good one kills everything?

[dextercorvia]

And even Arcane Thesis won't let it go below the original level of the spell.

[Wings of Peace]

Reading through this thread I would just like to note that there is a difference between an exploitable class and a broken class.

An exploitable class would be something that is game breakingly strong when played in a very particular way like the Cancer Mage when it abuses stat boosting diseases. A broken class would be something like the Tainted Scholar or the Beholder Mage, who even when played in a reserved manner will still more often than not manage to break the game.

[Draz74]

While we're at it, how about a list, ordered, from most broken to least. I'd put incantrix at the bottom, and probably planar shepard abusing planar time bubble thingy at the top. No idea about the classes in the middle though.

Illithid Savant
Tainted Scholar
Beholder Mage
Dweomerkeeper
Incantatrix
Planar Shepherd
Shadowcraft Mage
Cancer Mage
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil

IMO, the borderline between "very overpowered" and "broken" is between the Cancer Mage and the Iot7FV.

Also, some of these are easier to "break" than others. Iot7FV is scary powerful all by itself, just by playing it the way it's intended. Cancer Mage or Shadowcraft Mage, on the other hand, are actually kinda weak unless they're used with specific combos. Planar Shepherd is not that strong itself outside a couple specific combos, but even in that case, it's a freakin' Druid. Incantatrix can range widely from "very strong" to "unbeatable" depending on its use. Dweomerkeeper is, IIRC, not so bad unless you use it to cheat XP costs on certain powerful spells. Beholder Mage is, obviously, not available to PCs at all without some sort of cheese.

[Alleran]

Illithid Savant
Don't you technically need to get access to the right creatures to brain-nom-nom in order to really max out the cheese factor? Sure, you could steal Solar spellcasting, Tarrasque regeneration, Beholder Mage spellcasting and so on and so forth, but you have to get at the source first, while just a straight Beholder Mage has more spells (since Illithid Savant should only grant 1 spell per spellcasting level plus bonus spells if I'm reading it right) right off the bat, not to mention probably being able to put down the Savant long before it can actually start nomming on its brain. Or am I missing something?

[Wings of Peace]

The other big bonus to Dweomerkeeper is that you don't need the material components. This makes spells like Teleport Through Time or Apocalypse From the Sky MUCH easier to cast.

[Keld Denar]

I dunno, ScM is good, but not broken as long as you don't subscribe to the idea of shadow Miracles. RAW wise, it could be read either way (differentiation between YOUR spell list, and THE spell list), so simply reading it that you can't emulate spells that aren't explicitly wizard spells reduces ScM from a chain Miracle machine into simply a really effective, versatile blaster/disabler, but hardly any more powerful than most wizards of equal level.

[faceroll]

Don't you technically need to get access to the right creatures to brain-nom-nom in order to really max out the cheese factor? Sure, you could steal Solar spellcasting, Tarrasque regeneration, Beholder Mage spellcasting and so on and so forth, but you have to get at the source first, while just a straight Beholder Mage has more spells (since Illithid Savant should only grant 1 spell per spellcasting level plus bonus spells if I'm reading it right) right off the bat, not to mention probably being able to put down the Savant long before it can actually start nomming on its brain. Or am I missing something?

Illithid Savant requires you to gate in level 10 Illithid Savants to really break the class.

[FMArthur]

Yeah, Illithid Savant abuse is so extremely situational that in actual play the class is not really overpowered at all even with someone trying to abuse it. It does have the highest power ceiling, though.

I'm not entirely sure which is more insane between Beholder Mage and Planar Shepherd, and their abilities are very comparable. The advantage of the planar time bubble is it doesn't restrict which spells/actions you use for your 10 rounds, and does its trick for nearby allies as well (enemies actually can't use it unless they completely trap you, since even ending their turn in the bubble still lets you take your turn right afterward to move away from them and continue acting at a 10:1 exchange). The Beholder Mage "only" gets a spell from each level as free actions once a round, but does have better spells... and not by a small margin either because they can potentially be spontaneously casting from every Sorc/Wiz spell ever as opposed to just normal, prepared Druid spells, not even mentioning the stupidly fast progression.

I think the BM edges out the PS by getting 9ths in 9 levels and leaving the rest of the build open to combine with anything rather easily (even Planar Shepherd!). My ranked list of those game-breaking prestige classes thus goes as follows:

1. Beholder Mage
2. Planar Shepherd
3. Tainted Scholar
4. Cancer Mage
5. Incantatrix
6. Dweomerkeeper
7. Illithid Savant

Shadowcraft Mage and IotSV are overpowered but don't seem to smash the game to pieces much more than a regular Wizard would from what I can see. There's some oft-cited Shadow Miracles trick with SM that I'm having difficulty finding an explanation of via google, so my opinion is not exactly set in stone here.

[Keld Denar]

The Shadow Miracles trick is basically adding Miracle to your spell list. Since Miracle is an Evocation, you can emulate it with the Shadowcraft Mage's Shadow Illusion ability (ScM3). Then, using the Residual Metamagic feat with Heighten Spell and Earth Spell, and depending on optimization levels, you can turn all of your 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells into Miracles, alternating with 0th and 1st level spells to double your output. A well optimized level 20 ScM could probably pull off 30-40 Miracles per day, while a moderately optimized level 15 ScM could still chug out 6-8 per day.

Again, the point of contention there is that Shadow Illusion specifically states that a spell has to be a wiz/sorc spell. Even if you add the spell to YOUR spell list (Arcane Devotion: Luck is the most common way), that doesn't make it a wiz/sorc spell, only a luck domain spell that YOU can prepare and cast. Per RAW, you could read it either way, depending on your interpretation of what a wiz/sorc spell actually is. The simple fix is to read it the most restrictive way and disallow Shadow Miracles. That pretty much turns ScM from a chain Miracle machine into a semi-optimized blaster/summoner/controller with slightly more versatility than a straight class wizard of similar level might be.

[Endarire]

You asked about combining "Shadowcaster" with Incantatrix. I read that as Shadowcraft Mage (Races of Stone 120) + Ix. Here's my build, which requires your DM use Pathfinder or say, "All skills have a cap of 3 + HD."

Dragonborn Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfFire) Whisper Gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) Illusionist1/Shadowcraft Mage5/Incantatrix10/X3

1: {Aggressive}
1: [Chains of Disbelief (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants)],
1: Heighten Spell, Metamagic School Focus: Illusion, Spell Focus: Conjuration

Notes
-Use [i]net of shadows (Spell Compendium 147). Heigthen it to level 4 and reduce the cost via Metamagic School Focus (Complete Mage 45).

-Preferably, get an Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel 154, 3000G) along the way for Iron Will.

-Cast secret page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretpage.htm) a buncha times to learn more spells. Ban that school at Incantatrix1. (Ironically, Illusion is a candidate to ban here so long as you can cast spells you already know from it. Failing that, nix Enchantment, Necromancy, or Evocation.)

[JaronK]

I've never bought the Shadow Miracle thing (it's on your list, but not the Wizard/Sorc list). And yet SCMs are incredibly powerful. Feats like Residual Metamagic make them absolutely insane (it effectively doubles your highest level spell slots), while the ability to bypass all components and cast times on Shadow spells make a variety of spells far better than before. An obvious example is Shadow Major Creation to make a giant pool of Sinmaker's Surprise, doing an undefined really high amount of 1d6s of acid damage in addition to forcing hundreds of fort saves, where failing a few makes you dead. Immunity to poison lets you survive at all, but you'd need acid immunity not to die from simple damage. And that's in a 4th level slot. Eventually you get up to stuff like Shadow Genesis.

Runesmith, found just a page or so above SCM in Races of Stone, is another "what the heck were they thinking" class. It lets you have a wide variety of spells as spell like abilities, including True Creation (create any mundane thing you want, permanently!), Animate Dread Warrior (endless army of intelligent undead that can keep their class abilities) and more.

JaronK

[Akal Saris]

One other thing about incantatrix is that it's quite rare that you wouldn't want to take it on an arcane caster. Every arcane caster uses metamagic, and every caster wants better metamagic. After you finish off your nifty 5-10 level PrC with its cute combo, then the next best thing you can do it take levels of incantatrix. If a PrC is the best option 9/10 times, then it's too powerful.

Examples:
Gnome Illusionist 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5
Human Abjurer 5/Incantatrix 8/IoT7FV 7
"Whatever" Monk 1/Beholder Mage 10/Incantatrix 9 (I loathe beholder mage builds, since they rely on polymorph silliness, but you get the point)

[Eldonauran]

A well optimized level 20 ScM could probably pull off 30-40 Miracles per day, while a moderately optimized level 15 ScM could still chug out 6-8 per day.

... I am not sure your deity is going to be too pleased with that. That, and you'd be burning through a LOT of exp should the power level of the spell exceed a certain point.

Caster: And I want this. And this. And this. And this. And this...
Deity: :smallannoyed:
Caster: And how about this. And this. And this. And this...
Deity: :smallmad:
Caster: And what about this. And this. One of those. Couple of these...
Deity: :smallfurious:
Caster: Maybe all of that. A little more of....
Deity: :furious::furious::furious::furious:
Caster: *choke-squeal-gag-whimper-DIE*
Deity: :smallsigh: Now can someone tell me who gave that idiot so many miracles! *listens* Oh, ok. Time to eradicate all ______ (insert overpowered, metamagic reducing spellcasters) in existance. Then I will finally be able to have a moments peace.

ME: :smallamused:

[JaronK]

What deity? It's a shadow miracle. There's no deity, there's no miracle, just an illusion thereof. Except it works just like a real one. That's if the trick works of course.

The other power of the SCM with Earth Spell is that your caster level is much higher than normal. This helps a great deal in a lot of cases.

JaronK

[Keld Denar]

Yea, I'll agree that the CL boost is really nice. A CL 12 EBT at level 8 right after you get the spell is pretty sexy, but for the most part, its a lot of the same shananigans that any other wizard with a decent spell list should also be doing. Sure, you have a bit more versatility than is normal, but all the versatility in the world isn't gonna stop you from casting the same 10-12 spells as the guy with levels in Master Specialist or Fatespinner or whatever.

[BeholderSlayer]

What deity? It's a shadow miracle. There's no deity, there's no miracle, just an illusion thereof. Except it works just like a real one. That's if the trick works of course.

The other power of the SCM with Earth Spell is that your caster level is much higher than normal. This helps a great deal in a lot of cases.

JaronK

Yeah, you're not casting Miracle. You're casting Silent Image, but you can emulate Miracle with it. No XP, no deity to worry about.

[JaronK]

Yea, I'll agree that the CL boost is really nice. A CL 12 EBT at level 8 right after you get the spell is pretty sexy, but for the most part, its a lot of the same shananigans that any other wizard with a decent spell list should also be doing. Sure, you have a bit more versatility than is normal, but all the versatility in the world isn't gonna stop you from casting the same 10-12 spells as the guy with levels in Master Specialist or Fatespinner or whatever.

Except your spells have much higher caster level, ignore all components (including expensive material components and xp costs), and can take a standard action even when the normal spell would take days to cast. That's where things get ridiculous. Heck, with the right set up all your spells are instantly maximized (remember that the Plane of Shadow auto maximizes all shadow spells, and with Planar Bubble you can make that everywhere). And don't forget that abilities based around a single spell (like Arcane Thesis) get a whole lot better for you. Also your spells are always silent, which can be handy.

Look around at what happens when all those effects are in play. You can get away with some absolutely insane stuff. It's just a shame Wings of Flurry can't be a shadow spell since it's Sorcerer only, not Wizard/Sorcerer...

JaronK

[faceroll]

SCM shenanigans don't work on outer planes without planar bubble+collar of umbral metamorphosis. They also won't work very well while flying. Or in a city. Or an icefield. Or at sea.

[The Glyphstone]

SCM shenanigans don't work on outer planes without planar bubble+collar of umbral metamorphosis. They also won't work very well while flying. Or in a city. Or an icefield. Or at sea.

Illusions function just fine in a flying city hovering over an field of icebergs in the middle of the ocean, don't they? I'm confused.:smallconfused:

[JaronK]

SCM shenanigans don't work on outer planes without planar bubble+collar of umbral metamorphosis. They also won't work very well while flying. Or in a city. Or an icefield. Or at sea.

Unless you put some rock under your feet. Greater Floating Disk (which can be an auto extended shadow spell) + a 3' diameter disk of rock = mobile shenanigans enabler. Putting a small wall around this guy and animating shutters with Haunt Shift even gives you a mini fortress that will protect you from most enemies.

Remember, you're a Wizard. Be creative and you can do anything. But uncreative and you're doomed.

JaronK

[Boci]

Illusions function just fine in a flying city hovering over an field of icebergs in the middle of the ocean, don't they? I'm confused.:smallconfused:

Evdently you need to be in contact with rock to use them. I missed that bit as well.

[The Glyphstone]

Evdently you need to be in contact with rock to use them. I missed that bit as well.

That's only Earth Spell. SCM can still work most of its shenanigans without it, just not the already-questionable Miracle spam.

or you just fill your boots with dirt - which if you've gotten Miracle-spam accepted, is probably also good.

[olentu]

Illusions function just fine in a flying city hovering over an field of icebergs in the middle of the ocean, don't they? I'm confused.:smallconfused:

Well it is that earth spell only works when one is standing on stone or unworked earth.

[faceroll]

Unless you put some rock under your feet. Greater Floating Disk (which can be an auto extended shadow spell) + a 3' diameter disk of rock = mobile shenanigans enabler. Putting a small wall around this guy and animating shutters with Haunt Shift even gives you a mini fortress that will protect you from most enemies.

Remember, you're a Wizard. Be creative and you can do anything. But uncreative and you're doomed.

JaronK

Just reread the spell- thought it required unworked stone. Looks like it's just unworked earth. A flying fortress has some problems associated with it, though. Like requiring a standard action to move, or letting everyone know where you are at all times.

The requirements for earth spell makes SCM shenanigans a little more difficult to pull off than "acquire levels, disregard limitations." The class doesn't really start coming into its own until levels 10-15, either. Not that it's a bad thing, just if you want to be pulling a Killer Gnome, it won't work in a level 8 game.


That's only Earth Spell. SCM can still work most of its shenanigans without it, just not the already-questionable Miracle spam.

or you just fill your boots with dirt - which if you've gotten Miracle-spam accepted, is probably also good.

Not getting to use earth spell requires you use higher level spell slots to spam out of. Filling your boots with dirt would do nothing for earth spell. Filling them with stone would, as long as you weren't flying.

[The Glyphstone]

Just reread the spell- thought it required unworked stone. Looks like it's just unworked earth. A flying fortress has some problems associated with it, though. Like requiring a standard action to move, or letting everyone know where you are at all times.

The requirements for earth spell makes SCM shenanigans a little more difficult to pull off than "acquire levels, disregard limitations."


Well it is that earth spell only works when one is standing on stone or unworked earth.

Unless you can con your DM into agreeing that filling your boots with a layer of dirt counts as being constantly in contact with unworked earth...

[JaronK]

Just reread the spell- thought it required unworked stone. Looks like it's just unworked earth. A flying fortress has some problems associated with it, though. Like requiring a standard action to move, or letting everyone know where you are at all times.

How does it let people know where you are? We're talking about a 3' diameter thing with just enough inside capacity to hold a sitting gnome (and his easy chair) here... the total size is smaller than most characters. Plus, are you unable to cast Permanent Invisibility on the thing for some reason? Standard Action movement is annoying, but perfect flight speed all the time is awesome. And if you animate the thing with Haunt Shift, you could even give it legs. If you prefer, get a nice howdah on your mount (Warhorse, Desmoderu War Bat, whatever) and put dirt in it.

...or just put some dirt in your boots.


The requirements for earth spell makes SCM shenanigans a little more difficult to pull off than "acquire levels, disregard limitations." The class doesn't really start coming into its own until levels 10-15, either. Not that it's a bad thing, just if you want to be pulling a Killer Gnome, it won't work in a level 8 game.

Note that Earth Spell is actually an early entry trick in its own right. Gnome Illusionist 5/SCM 3 is a pretty solid build for a level 8 game. With two flaws, you'd need Spell Focus Illusion, Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, Earth Spell... that's level 3. Take any useful feat at 6 (Arcane Thesis and Residual Metamagic are obvious choices).


Not getting to use earth spell requires you use higher level spell slots to spam out of. Filling your boots with dirt would do nothing for earth spell. Filling them with stone would, as long as you weren't flying.

Why not? You're standing on unworked earth, aren't you?

JaronK

[faceroll]

How does it let people know where you are? We're talking about a 3' diameter thing with just enough inside capacity to hold a sitting gnome (and his easy chair) here... the total size is smaller than most characters. Plus, are you unable to cast Permanent Invisibility on the thing for some reason? Standard Action movement is annoying, but perfect flight speed all the time is awesome. And if you animate the thing with Haunt Shift, you could even give it legs. If you prefer, get a nice howdah on your mount (Warhorse, Desmoderu War Bat, whatever) and put dirt in it.

After about level 8, virtually every enemy worth its CR has a way to detect invisibility.


Note that Earth Spell is actually an early entry trick in its own right. Gnome Illusionist 5/SCM 3 is a pretty solid build for a level 8 game. With two flaws, you'd need Spell Focus Illusion, Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, Earth Spell... that's level 3. Take any useful feat at 6 (Arcane Thesis and Residual Metamagic are obvious choices).

The reality of your spells aren't that high at that point, though.


Why not? You're standing on unworked earth, aren't you?

Putting dirt in your boots would be working the earth, wouldn't it? Also, if you are flying, are you standing?

[olentu]

How does it let people know where you are? We're talking about a 3' diameter thing with just enough inside capacity to hold a sitting gnome (and his easy chair) here... the total size is smaller than most characters. Plus, are you unable to cast Permanent Invisibility on the thing for some reason? Standard Action movement is annoying, but perfect flight speed all the time is awesome. And if you animate the thing with Haunt Shift, you could even give it legs. If you prefer, get a nice howdah on your mount (Warhorse, Desmoderu War Bat, whatever) and put dirt in it.

...or just put some dirt in your boots.



Note that Earth Spell is actually an early entry trick in its own right. Gnome Illusionist 5/SCM 3 is a pretty solid build for a level 8 game. With two flaws, you'd need Spell Focus Illusion, Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, Earth Spell... that's level 3. Take any useful feat at 6 (Arcane Thesis and Residual Metamagic are obvious choices).



Why not? You're standing on unworked earth, aren't you?

JaronK

Not if you are sitting.

[Seerow]

Putting dirt in your boots would be working the earth, wouldn't it? Also, if you are flying, are you standing?


If putting dirt in your boots is working it, then standing on earth automatically turns it into worked earth.


I could see the argument of "No, the feat when saying earth clearly intends ___, RAW may let you do that but it would never fly in most games". But arguing that some dirt in my shoes is crafted? That's just silly. If that's the case I expect to start getting paid for a hard days work at craft(sand) every time I go to the beach and come home with shoes full of sand.

[olentu]

If putting dirt in your boots is working it, then standing on earth automatically turns it into worked earth.


I could see the argument of "No, the feat when saying earth clearly intends ___, RAW may let you do that but it would never fly in most games". But arguing that some dirt in my shoes is crafted? That's just silly. If that's the case I expect to start getting paid for a hard days work at craft(sand) every time I go to the beach and come home with shoes full of sand.

Profession (shoe filler).

[faceroll]

If putting dirt in your boots is working it, then standing on earth automatically turns it into worked earth.

The action of putting dirt in your boots makes it worked, not standing on it. Also, if you are flying, can you be standing on your shoes?

[JaronK]

Not if you are sitting.

Fine, standing gnome. We're still talking about a 3' diameter 3.5' high thing here. It's not exactly a giant blinking sign telling everyone where you are. Certainly, if it's floating, it's more stealthy than the clanking BSF.

And "worked" usually means shaped or machined or something. Moved into a different container hardly counts as worked.

JaronK

[Zeful]

And "worked" usually means shaped or machined or something. Moved into a different container hardly counts as worked.

Actually it does

Second definition: something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/work?qsrc=2446)

[JaronK]

Awesome. Good to know I could sell totally machine made sculptures as being "hand worked" as long as I put it in the packaging by hand.

JaronK

[BeholderSlayer]

Actually it does

Second definition: something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/work?qsrc=2446)

"Worked" earth doesn't necessarily follow the definition of only "work." Worked earth is dirt that has been worked on, usually to make it more fine and granular for purposes of farming. Simply picking up dirt does not qualify it as "worked earth."

For example, I had to use worked earth to plant my garden this year. It was dirt, ground very finely, and mixed with biomass for fertilizer.

The definition of "work" is one from physics. It is a technical term unrelated to what is commonly known as worked earth.

[BunnyMaster42]

Actually it does

Second definition: something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/work?qsrc=2446)

Wait, does that mean that anything that has been walked on in the past has technically been worked? You are exerting a force on the ground when you walk are you not? If so, then would you even be able to use Earth Spell at all since you're always going to have exerted some sort of force on the ground you are currently standing on.

I'm all for pedantry, but sometimes you can take it a bit too far...

[randomhero00]

What would gestalt best with an incantrix? DMM clericzilla? Sorcerer? Would all those MM effect the sorc side too?

[faceroll]

Wait, does that mean that anything that has been walked on in the past has technically been worked? You are exerting a force on the ground when you walk are you not? If so, then would you even be able to use Earth Spell at all since you're always going to have exerted some sort of force on the ground you are currently standing on.

I'm all for pedantry, but sometimes you can take it a bit too far...

It's funny how the pedantry only goes in one direction.

[dextercorvia]

What would gestalt best with an incantrix? DMM clericzilla? Sorcerer? Would all those MM effect the sorc side too?

I would go for a passive class. You have plenty of awesomeness to use your actions on. Now you need some always on buffs. Binder, Marshal, (You have no need for DMM, you may persist spells with a spellcraft check). If you really feel like you need more spells, then Archivist is nice... Beguiler would get you lots of spell slots, and if they weren't the right tool for the job, you could just use Versatile Spellcaster to get more wizardly goodness.

[LordBlades]

What would gestalt best with an incantrix? DMM clericzilla? Sorcerer? Would all those MM effect the sorc side too?

Archivist or Dweomerkeeper?

[JaronK]

Archivist would give you more stuff to persist. Factotum would give you extra actions to use your ridiculous casting power with. Commoner would give you lots of chickens.

It's a toss up. How much do you like chicken?

JaronK

[Myth]

What would gestalt best with an incantrix? DMM clericzilla? Sorcerer? Would all those MM effect the sorc side too?

A pure Cloistered Cleric of Mystra / Dweomerkeeper with Intiate of Mystra.

[randomhero00]

Archivist would give you more stuff to persist. Factotum would give you extra actions to use your ridiculous casting power with. Commoner would give you lots of chickens.

It's a toss up. How much do you like chicken?

JaronK

We're playing a one shot. Its a bet. Mid-levels. I have a friend who thinks monks are powerful (and melee in general is overpowered).... I want to show him just how powerful casters can be (without truly breaking anything, like no tained scholar or beholder mage of course, probably no wish shenanigans either). But yes, lots and lots of chicken.

I was thinking venerable dragonwrought kobold and do the ritual. It'll get me higher level spells and wings of cover. But I need to know if I can use incantrix tricks with the sorcerer spells (after taking rapid metamagic of course).

He's impressed more by damage, so I plan on having a lot of defenses persisted, and then use Orb of X spells to their best.

[randomhero00]

Crap I just realized its level 12//12, and incantrix needs 13. Don't get the minus MM stuff till then. Sigh. Will have to think of a new build.

[The Glyphstone]

Incantatix still gets free metamagics, and persisted buffs, and other nonsense. If you want to show off the damage potential of a sorcerer, it's quite the way to go.

[randomhero00]

Incantatix still gets free metamagics, and persisted buffs, and other nonsense. If you want to show off the damage potential of a sorcerer, it's quite the way to go.

Explain? Its a one shot, we won't be leveling from level 12. To get the MM abuse Incantrix needs wiz5/incant 8 = level 13... or did I read it wrong?

edit: I was looking at the 3.0 version. Woops!

[JaronK]

We're playing a one shot. Its a bet. Mid-levels. I have a friend who thinks monks are powerful (and melee in general is overpowered).... I want to show him just how powerful casters can be (without truly breaking anything, like no tained scholar or beholder mage of course, probably no wish shenanigans either). But yes, lots and lots of chicken.

I was thinking venerable dragonwrought kobold and do the ritual. It'll get me higher level spells and wings of cover. But I need to know if I can use incantrix tricks with the sorcerer spells (after taking rapid metamagic of course).

He's impressed more by damage, so I plan on having a lot of defenses persisted, and then use Orb of X spells to their best.

Wait, you just wanted DAMAGE? Yeesh, why didn't you say so?

Wings of Flurry. Get it. Love it. Nothing else matters.

If you want to go for broken beyond belief, then you want Venerable Unseelie Fey Dragonwrought Kobold (+5 Charisma, -your charisma mod to nearby enemy saves), then take Loredrake, then do the ritual at level 6. You now have +3 casting levels as a Sorcerer. Take Arcane Thesis. Even ignoring absolutely everything else (like metamagics) at level 12 you've got a caster level of 17, for 17d6 force damage to all enemies near you, dazing them if they don't reflex save. If you can fit Incantrix in there then by all means do so (Persistant Mirror Image, Sculpted Wings of Flurry, Twinned Wings of Flurry, why not?). Destroy all who dare step too close.

JaronK

[Jack_Simth]

We're playing a one shot. Its a bet. Mid-levels. I have a friend who thinks monks are powerful (and melee in general is overpowered).... I want to show him just how powerful casters can be (without truly breaking anything, like no tained scholar or beholder mage of course, probably no wish shenanigans either).
If you want to prove him wrong, you don't throw a ten-source build at him.

You throw a Core build at him.

Sorcerer-12. Get, say, Overland Flight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/overlandFlight.htm), Greater Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm) (to get rid of any key item buffs he uses), Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm) to get around the battlefield quickly, and a few slow damage spells that don't let Evasion do it's thing (Black Tentacles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm), Wall of Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfFire.htm), Scorching Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scorchingRay.htm), Acid Arrow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidArrow.htm), and similar. Focus your feats and build around initiative and going first. Get the regular version of Dispel Magic Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm), too.

So you go invisible and move a bit off to the side. He uses a Hand of Glory to see invisibility... oh, that was his standard action; he can't attack you this round. You cast Fly, and get up out of reach. He quaffs a potion of Fly so he can get to you... oops, that was his standard action this round, so he still can't attack you. You fly up a ways... and Dispel him, getting rid of both the See Invisibility and the fly potion. Now you're out of reach, and he can't see you. Go offensive after that.