Beguiler build

[Dalek-K]

So without going overly crazy on super builds and without being a bard, I want a character that can be good for both melee, ranged, and a bit of magic. Yes a gishy gish gishum

What I came up with is a Beguiler/Master of Masks mix.

Now I have never actually played either of the above mentioned classes but I like both of them. I know Beguilers are pretty decent (tier 3) but I don't know anything on the Master of Masks.

Beguiler5/Master of Masks 10/ Beguiler5

With the master of Masks the beguiler will gain 4 levels of spell casting, so would roughly be a level 14 in spell casting abilities.

However would just a few level dip be better? Maybe say level 5 or 6 for Master of Masks (giving me 5 masks) and a few of the MoM abilities? Although just dipping wouldn't give me the full range of the masks abilities.

The masks I'm actually wanting to gain are
Angel (feather fall)
Demon (summon monster)
Faceless (non detection and save bonus against mind effecting spells and abilities)
Gladiator (all martial and exotic weapons +1 dmg/att)
High Priest (healing spells)
Lich ( false life and 10 cold resistance)

I'm thinking 10 levels of MoM would be for the best but again you play-grounders may know something that I don't about the class...

[imperialspectre]

Beguilers suck at attack rolls, and you can duplicate everything you would get from Master of Masks except Gladiator with Beguiler class features and UMD (hell, you could UMD a wand of Divine Power and another of Heroics and be almost as good as a fighter).

If you want to gish and be decent at both melee and ranged attacks, the best build is honestly straight Cleric. You can cast Divine Power and carry a composite longbow, and you'll be relatively competent at both ranged and melee attacks. Clerics have several spells that provide an AoE buff to attack rolls, damage rolls, etc. without requiring you use a melee or ranged attack - I like Recitation and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, both from the Spell Compendium.

As an arcane caster, Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer with Hunter's Eye (spell from Spell Compendium, accessed through Unseen Seer's Advanced Learning ability) and Craven (feat from Champions of Ruin) is quite a competent sneak attacker, and you can apply SA to either ranged or melee attacks as long as you're within 30 feet of your target.

[Cog]

With 6+Int skills and picking up the Educated feat, Beguilers can make good use of Knowledge Devotion without losing out on utility skill too. For weapon proficiencies, if you're already UMDing, there's a swift-action touch spell in Spell Compendium that gives you proficiency with the item. (Master's Touch, I believe.)

[HunterOfJello]

Master of the Masks is worth a 1 or 2 level dip at max. Grabbing the Archmage (or High Priest) and Gladiator Masks are a good idea. Losing another caster level AND another point of BAB just isn't worth it on the 3rd level of MotM.

The Prestige Class most people shoot for with Gish builds is the Abjurant Champion. It's similar to the Eldritch Knight, but completely superior from what I remember.


If the spells you want as a Gish are solely of the Illusion and Enchantment nature, then Beguiler is a fine glass to go with. Most people go Wizard for Arcane, but go Cleric or Archvist for Divine.

There's a nice Gish Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786.0) here, although it's pretty short.

[Incanur]

There's a nice Gish Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786.0) here, although it's pretty short.

Ruby knight windicator isn't blue in that guide. :smallfrown:

[HunterOfJello]

Ruby knight windicator isn't blue in that guide. :smallfrown:

Ouch! Didn't notice that.

Well, not all guides are perfect. He says that he doesn't like Crusaders, so he much not understand the true power of the Windicator.

[Incanur]

Beguiler doesn't seem like the ideal spellcasting class for a gish to me but I have heard of folks having success with it.

[gorfnab]

Here is a Beguiler Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0) for you. Too bad you don't want a bard because they can make awesome gishes. If you want a caster that can do both melee and ranged combat take a look into Duskblade. With two levels of Arcane Archer you baisically would be able to channel spells in melee and at range. Another gish option would be a Mystic Ranger (Drag #336 or here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III?post_id=338428258#3 38428258)) with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order (CoV). Once you hit level 10 with a Mystic Ranger your spellcasting flattens out so then you could look into focusing on your melee and ranged combat abilities more intensively or just make a Swift Hunter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0) build out of it (something like Scout 5/ Mystic Ranger 15).

[faceroll]

Beguiler's make weak gishes, as their spells, class features, HD, and armor proficiency don't lend well to melee.

[Human Paragon 3]

I've always wanted to mix Dread Commando with beguiler. D.C. has full bab, +3 sudden strike and really good skills. You can use beguiler spells to go invisible and/or blind your enemy then full attack with sudden strike. You will lose five caster levels, though. If your game is medium powered, this shouldn't matter though, you'll still be extremely competent, just not as good as a full beguiler... different though.

Alternatively, there's a feat that adds a cleric domain to your spell list, and thereafter you can spontaneously cast them at will since that's how beguilers cast. Healing domain for cure spells or force domain for damage spells are my personal favorites when outfitting a beguiler with cleric magic.

[Thespianus]

Alternatively, there's a feat that adds a cleric domain to your spell list, and thereafter you can spontaneously cast them at will since that's how beguilers cast. Healing domain for cure spells or force domain for damage spells are my personal favorites when outfitting a beguiler with cleric magic.
Won't that make you horribly dependent on Wisdom, something you really don't want to add to your Beguiler's list of woes? With that Feat, you cast your Cleric spells off Wisdom, if I remeber correctly.

[Zergrusheddie]

Beguilers are one of my favorite classes in the game. The are very powerful and very balanced. However, Gishes they are not. Beguilers are better off throwing out Confusions, Glitterdusts, and Dominates rather than trying to get into combat. The advantage is that they have so many damn spell slots it is nearly impossible to run out.

A Gray Elf Beguiler with 24 Intellect gets 8 First and Second, 7 Third, and 4 Fourth level spells, many of which can utterly end and encounter with a one or two casts. Add in Versatile Spellcaster and you can really increase the number of higher level spell slots you have. If your DM lets you operate under the RAW insanity of Versatile Spellcaster, you could potentially cast higher levels that you do not normally have access to.

As others have said, if you want a Gish, Beguiler is probably the worst chassis you could use. They have more limited spells than Wizards and have the same horrible BAB. Also, Multiclassing as a Beguiler might kill your otherwise amazing Trap Finding ability. PH2 has the powerful "Lazy Man's Gish" in Duskblade.

Best of luck.
-Eddie

[Dalek-K]

I like the illusion/enchantment focus of the Beguiler, along with the cloaked casting/sneakiness of the class.

Bards are all about being heard and they need verbal component to their spells... I don't want to be center of attention in the game I'm going to be in.



The DM just informed me that we will be down a player and now will only have 2 players so we will be allowed to gestalt. I'm going to gestalt the Beguiler with something like fighter or some other martial character.


Thanks for the info and if I play in another 3.5 as a beguiler then i'll use what you all put on here... thanks :)

[dextercorvia]

Won't that make you horribly dependent on Wisdom, something you really don't want to add to your Beguiler's list of woes? With that Feat, you cast your Cleric spells off Wisdom, if I remeber correctly.

It's not bad so long as you avoid spells with saving throws.

[gorfnab]

Bards are all about being heard and they need verbal component to their spells... I don't want to be center of attention in the game I'm going to be in.

Silverbrow Human Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8 // Paladin of Freedom 2 (for cha to saves)/ Crusader 18 with Dragonfire Inspiration makes a really nice gish. Also the Subsonics (CAdv) and Melodic Casting (CM) feats gets around having to be heard.



The DM just informed me that we will be down a player and now will only have 2 players so we will be allowed to gestalt. I'm going to gestalt the Beguiler with something like fighter or some other martial character.

Beguiler would gestalt well with Warblade or Rogue/Swashbuckler + Daring Outlaw + Improved Feint (feinting as a free action from Surprise Casting)

[Dalek-K]

Silverbrow Human Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8 // Paladin of Freedom 2 (for cha to saves)/ Crusader 18 with Dragonfire Inspiration makes a really nice gish. Also the Subsonics (CAdv) and Melodic Casting (CM) feats gets around having to be heard.

I'm trying not to get to crazy with books and all

[Incanur]

Gestalt warblade/beguiler has an appealing simplicity.

[HunterOfJello]

You need to grab a ToB class then.

I would go Beguiler//Swordsage. Whether you go Warblade or Swordsage is up to you.

It's a matter of playstyle and what you want to spend your feats on. Swordsages are feat heavy, Warblades can easily play well with just Power Attack. Warblades will benefit in a few ways from the higher Int, but not substatially. Also, not having a good wisdom score doesn't really matter for a Swordsage.

~

You also have the option of Beguiler//Factotum if you don't want a melee focused character. The Factotum bonuses will stack up like crazy after a while.

Not to mention Duskblade//Beguiler.

It's all up to what you want your character to do.

[Roc Ness]

If homebrew isn't out of the question, then The Demented One's Errant Blademaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52597) combines astonishingly well with the Beguiler in a Gestalt. Int to pretty much all useful combat rolls (including Feint bluffs and Trip/Grapple ability checks), d10 hit die and a real swashbucklery feel.

First turn, buff yourself up with the likes of Mirror Image or Displacement, then start stabbin' away with powerful maneuvers. And if you need it, you can do some crowd control with your beguiler spells, use them to regroup or change the battlefield. Swift action Feinting isn't bad either.

The only problem you'll have then is action economy.

[Godskook]

Alternatively, there's a feat that adds a cleric domain to your spell list, and thereafter you can spontaneously cast them at will since that's how beguilers cast. Healing domain for cure spells or force domain for damage spells are my personal favorites when outfitting a beguiler with cleric magic.

Arcane Disciple doesn't work like that. The feat specifically limits those spells to 1/day, with a loophole for pearls of power on prepared casters *ONLY*.

[Escheton]

You have skills, guile, non-direct-damage or heavy utility spells and trapfinding covered.

So for gestalt:

If you want to be the brains of the operation: psion
If you want to up your shadowy magic though: shadowcaster
If you want more of a support(heal, buffs)role: archivist, the intbased cleric
If you want to up your utility and direct damage: wizard
If you want to be more simple direct melee: warblade
If you want to be more tricksy sneaky magicy melee: swordsage
If you want to be more bestial clawy melee: totemist or psiwarrior
If you just want to explore some awesomely odd options: binder or incarnate

[Incanur]

Warblades will benefit in a few ways from the higher Int, but not substatially.

The bonuses add up higher levels, particularly if you're doing the AoO thing.


Not to mention Duskblade//Beguiler.

Another excellent option. In the unfortunate situation where your manipulations fail you release a whirlwind of fiery destruction.