Ranger-ish TWF gish: viable?

[SurlySeraph]

As the title indicates, I'm trying to build a TWF gish with some ranger-ish abilities. I'm not concerned about getting high-level spells, since casting lots of low-level spells fits the concept better.

Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order would be perfect if it were allowed, but it isn't.

A Duskblade using the Cityscape web enhancement to get Survival as a class skill might work, but I'd like a better skill list. Plus it can't get Arcane Strike until 9th level, though once it gets multichanneling at 13th it'd work well with the extra attacks from TWF.

I'm considering Daggerspell Mage, largely for the 6+Int skill points and good skill list. Duskblade 4/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Daggerspell Mage 10/ Abjurant Champion 5 (with a CL increase to qualify for DsM) seems functional.

Any advice on what would work well?

[true_shinken]

I'm considering Daggerspell Mage, largely for the 6+Int skill points and good skill list. Duskblade 4/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Daggerspell Mage 10/ Abjurant Champion 5 (with a CL increase to qualify for DsM) seems functional.

This looks like it could work. While you don't get shield, Duskblades do get deflect which is almost as good.

[Keld Denar]

Suel Arcanamach? I think you can get in with just Planar Ranger sub levels. Alternatively, Ranger2/Duskblade2/FullBAB2 would get you in as well.

Alternatively, an Unseen Seer build might work. Is there a ranger varient that gets Sneak Attack? Or just use Wilderness Rogue and take the Track and TWF feats.

[HunterOfJello]

Duskblade with Able Learner would net you all skills as in-class. Factotum 2 would grant you tons of awesome bonuses to all sorts of stuff based on your Int modifier.

[Psyren]

Ranger/Psion/Slayer is very ranger-ish and an extremely powerful gish. 9ths, +16 BAB and strong class features make a lethal combination.

Seer makes you the ultimate tracker, Nomad or Kineticist make you a warrior without peer, Egoist gives you all the fun of wildshape ranger and dozens more tricks besides.

[SurlySeraph]

Unseen Seer doesn't actually require Sneak Attack to enter, so 2 levels and using Advanced Learning to pick up Hunter's Eye might be good.
I didn't consider Suel Arcanamach, but the prereqs are easier than I remembered; looks like a pretty good option, though I prefer Int-based builds.
I'm not sure about Able Learner, since the build will be pretty feat-starved, but it could work. 3 levels in Factotum to get my ranger-ish skills awesome and not worrying much about class skills for my other levels sounds viable.

Thanks for the advice!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter is the traditional TWF Ranger Gish of choice, as it adds Skirmish damage to every hit.

You want your spells with that? Hmmm...

Would you settle for using a lot of toys? You said you'd rather have a lot of lower end stuff than the high end stuff, right? How about Ranger/Warlock? Unlimited spell-like abilities, and it can even be CG and have the Fey Heritage feat to fit right in with the whole nature thing.

Warlock4 would give you a couple of really nice abilities.

2d6 Eldritch Blast. Sure, doesn't seem like much, but you can channel that through a regular attack with Hedious Blast. One of the (very few) decent uses of an otherwise worthless Invocation.

Speaking of Invocations, you get three of them. There's a lot of options:

Breath of the Night: At-Will Fog Cloud. Perhaps not the best, but still handy.
Dark One's Own Luck: If you have a decent Charisma mod, it can boost a low save
Entropic Warding: Pass Without Trace + no scent + 20% miss chance on ranged attacks. Yes, please.
See The Unseen: See Invis + Darkvision. Never fail to see anything again.
Spiderwalk: Because sometimes, the best route is along the walls or ceiling.
Summon Swarm: All the nature flavor you are looking for, and unlimited usage.
Leaps and Bounds: Jump checks? Done. Balance checks? Done. Tumble checks? Done. Getting from Point A to Point B safely? Done.
Darkness: It's not just for Drow anymore!
Devil's Sight: Because Drow are just goth elves with a level adjustment
Baleful Utterance: At-Will Shatter. The possibilities are endless.

Oh yes, and Take 10 on all UMD checks. And has UMD as a class skill. So basically, you can use all the toys you want to use, and never worry about accidentally frying yourself.

Oh, you also get Detect Magic as an at-will SLA, and DR 1/Cold Iron

[Keld Denar]

Unseen Seer doesn't actually require Sneak Attack to enter, so 2 levels and using Advanced Learning to pick up Hunter's Eye might be good.
No, but USS explicitly doesn't give you precision damage if you don't already have it. Thus, if you don't have SA, skirmish, or Sudden Strike going into it, you don't get the advances when USS would normally give them to you.



I didn't consider Suel Arcanamach, but the prereqs are easier than I remembered; looks like a pretty good option, though I prefer Int-based builds.

You could combine SA and USS. If you did something like Ranger2/SA Fighter2/Duskblade2/Suel4/USS2/AbjChamp5/X3.

Alternatively, you could have some fun with Illumian...

Naenhoon Ranger2/Paladin4/Suel4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisc4

Paladin gives you Turn Undead, which Naenhoon lets you use twice per day for DMM that isn't restricted to Divine spells like DMM is. That means you could persist 2 spells....Wraithstrike would be a good one. Swap 2 levels of DragonD for Unseen Seer and you could also persist Hunter's Eye.

I think there is even a couple of Rangerish Pally ACFs in Champions of Valor to trade out you rather low powered pally abilities for more effective options. Alternatively, Pally of Freedom would be decent. You could also trade away your Pally spells for a bonus feat at Pal4, since most of the ones you'll want to use are on the Ranger list as well so you could still use wands and other spell trigger items.

[Psyren]

No opinion on the Slayer? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) Not only is it a great gish in general, it fits ranger archetypes particularly well.

[gbprime]

Okay, I'll ask. Why isn't Mystic Ranger/SoAA allowed? Can't use Dragon Mag, or can't use Forgotten Realms?

If you can use Forgotten Realms stuff, Knight of the Weave is pretty good too. 6th level spells (small spell list, though) and some other trinkets, easy entry.

[Person_Man]

So you want TWF, Skills, and arcane spells, and it looks like you're going to be playing around mid-levels? Is that correct?

I would take a look at:

Factotum: Amazing Skills, ability to spam low level spells as spell-like abilities, and plenty of quirky abilities.
Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1): Good Skills, ability to cast arcane and divine spells (from any list - Thunder Lance and Holy Sword are very handy for TWF builds).
Knight of the Weave: Full BAB, 3/4 casting (up to 6th level spells at ECL 13). Champions of Valor.
Incarnate or Binder: Either can fake various spells with their soulmelds or vestiges, and can do so in every combat. They're also both suprisingly good Skill Monkeys.
Able Learner: This feat makes all of your Skills count as class Skills for the rest of your career, so you never have to pay the 1/2 cross class penalty on them. So something like Factotum or Rogue or Ranger 1/Anything X with a decent Intelligence score can keep up on your key Skills without having to spend your career as a Skill Monkey.
Status effects: TWF is generally is inefficient at delivering damage. However, it's quite good at forcing Save or suck/lose effects on your enemies. There are a bunch of different tricks for this if you're interested.
Swordsage: Tiger Claw is made for TWF. You also get good Monkish Skills. You lack spells, but that can be made up for with wands.

[Greenish]

Knight of the Weave: Full BAB, 3/4 casting (up to 6th level spells at ECL 13). Champions of Valor.
KotW has only medium BAB.

[true_shinken]

KotW has only medium BAB.

And a crappy spell list.

[SurlySeraph]

How about Ranger/Warlock? Unlimited spell-like abilities, and it can even be CG and have the Fey Heritage feat to fit right in with the whole nature thing.

I wouldn't have thought of that. The invocations you mentioned sound good, and using Wand Chambers while dual-wielding would work well.


You could combine SA and USS. If you did something like Ranger2/SA Fighter2/Duskblade2/Suel4/USS2/AbjChamp5/X3.

Alternatively, you could have some fun with Illumian...

Naenhoon Ranger2/Paladin4/Suel4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisc4

Paladin gives you Turn Undead, which Naenhoon lets you use twice per day for DMM that isn't restricted to Divine spells like DMM is. That means you could persist 2 spells....Wraithstrike would be a good one. Swap 2 levels of DragonD for Unseen Seer and you could also persist Hunter's Eye.

I think there is even a couple of Rangerish Pally ACFs in Champions of Valor to trade out you rather low powered pally abilities for more effective options. Alternatively, Pally of Freedom would be decent. You could also trade away your Pally spells for a bonus feat at Pal4, since most of the ones you'll want to use are on the Ranger list as well so you could still use wands and other spell trigger items.

That looks pretty solid. I'd like to have more arcane casting earlier in the build, though; would switching the Ranger and Paladin levels to Duskblade and picking up a level in Sacred Exorcist work?


No opinion on the Slayer? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) Not only is it a great gish in general, it fits ranger archetypes particularly well.

I like Slayers, but part of the flavor I want for this character involves familiarity with undead and using negative energy spells, and the only negative energy-based psionic powers I'm aware of kinda suck. Plus the anti-aberration abilities don't really fit.


Okay, I'll ask. Why isn't Mystic Ranger/SoAA allowed? Can't use Dragon Mag, or can't use Forgotten Realms?

Can't use Dragon. I'll look into Knight of the Weave.


So you want TWF, Skills, and arcane spells, and it looks like you're going to be playing around mid-levels? Is that correct?

I would take a look at:

Factotum: Amazing Skills, ability to spam low level spells as spell-like abilities, and plenty of quirky abilities.
Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1): Good Skills, ability to cast arcane and divine spells (from any list - Thunder Lance and Holy Sword are very handy for TWF builds).
Knight of the Weave: Full BAB, 3/4 casting (up to 6th level spells at ECL 13). Champions of Valor.
Incarnate or Binder: Either can fake various spells with their soulmelds or vestiges, and can do so in every combat. They're also both suprisingly good Skill Monkeys.
Able Learner: This feat makes all of your Skills count as class Skills for the rest of your career, so you never have to pay the 1/2 cross class penalty on them. So something like Factotum or Rogue or Ranger 1/Anything X with a decent Intelligence score can keep up on your key Skills without having to spend your career as a Skill Monkey.
Status effects: TWF is generally is inefficient at delivering damage. However, it's quite good at forcing Save or suck/lose effects on your enemies. There are a bunch of different tricks for this if you're interested.
Swordsage: Tiger Claw is made for TWF. You also get good Monkish Skills. You lack spells, but that can be made up for with wands.


All correct.

I'd like Factotum more if not for how it can only cast one instance of each spell it has memorized, since I'd like to be able to spam Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, etc. I can definitely see Chameleon having some utility, and dual-wielding Thunder Lances would be hilarious.
I don't know much about Binders; Focolor for debuffing and Naberius for evading ability damage are about all I know about. Are there any vestiges you'd recommend for this concept?
On status effects, I was thinking of Bladeweave, spell-storing weapons, and possibly using Death Devotion. Are there any cheap ways of getting status effects you'd recommend?
I can see Swordsage working, though UMD-reliance would produce less casting than I'd like. Maybe a Swordsage dip, pick up supernatural-ish maneuvers, and use it to qualify for Jade Phoenix Mage?

[Keld Denar]

That looks pretty solid. I'd like to have more arcane casting earlier in the build, though; would switching the Ranger and Paladin levels to Duskblade and picking up a level in Sacred Exorcist work?

Um...SacEx is kinda restrictive in that you HAVE to have Dismissal as a 4th level spell known. Given that you won't have 4th level spells until ECL12, that means that your first SacEx level will be at 13, which means you have to be level 13 in order to Persist things. Also, you only get like, 3 4th level spells known, and there are so many other great 4th level Suel spells I'd rather know...like Greater Mirror Image, Greater Invis, and whatnot.

The way I built it, you could theoretically start persisting spells at 4th-6th level, depending on build. Straight up, you could persist a Rhino's Rush or Divine Favor or Bless Weapon off the Pally list, and then at 7 you could persist Shield or Enlarge Person quite easily, and it gets better from there. Remember, though, you only get to use it twice per day, so choose your spells wisely.

EDIT: If you could get a pally variant that gives you enough ranger feel, you could swap the 2 levels of Ranger for 2 levels of Duskblade, take TWFing as a feat, and go Pal4/Dusk2 as your build chassis to get into Suel. Thats about the most optimized Suel entry anyway. Dusk2 gives you Combat Casting as a bonus feat which you need for Suel and AbjChamp, so that saves you a feat you could spend on TWFing.

I know there is a Pally variant in CoV that gives the Track feat and Survival as a class skill as a trade for Smite, someone used it in the Iron Optimization thread for Vigilante. I'll have a peek there quick.

[Greenish]

You could combine SA and USS. If you did something like Ranger2/SA Fighter2/Duskblade2/Suel4/USS2/AbjChamp5/X3.SA fighter 2 is a dead level. You could grab a third level of Duskblade for standard action channeling instead.

[Keld Denar]

Eh, Arcane Channeling on a Suel Arcanamach is pretty lackluster. Suel's don't get access to Evocation, Conjouration, or Necromancy, so your spell channel options are pretty crappy. You are stuck channeling your CL3 Shocking Grasps, which is pretty meh in the long run.

Maybe swap that level for a level of Barb for pounce? TWFing loves pounce...

[gbprime]

Eh, Arcane Channeling on a Suel Arcanamach is pretty lackluster. Suel's don't get access to Evocation, Conjouration, or Necromancy, so your spell channel options are pretty crappy. You are stuck channeling your CL3 Shocking Grasps, which is pretty meh in the long run.

If you're channelling DAMAGE, sure. Hitting them with Daze Monster, Hideous Laughter, Hesitate, or Entice Gift can be pretty rewarding. (Mind you I'd only take some of those spells as an Arcane Channeller...)

[true_shinken]

I just cooked up a TWF gish for an eberron game that I thought I would share.
Duskblade 6/Flashblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8760711&postcount=1) 3.
Feats: Hidden Talent (dimension hop), Lesser Mark of Passage, Least Mark of Passage, TWF, Combat Casting and Arcane Strike.
Important Items: Bolt Shirt, Gloves of Balanced Hands and Boots of Swift Passage.
This guy is all about teleportation. Flashblade's Flash Step allows you to make a pounce full attack (counts as a charge, even - that +2 to hit helps when you are using TWF) after your first teleport in the round. This guy has teleports for every action and every range. Arcane Strike helps the hitting and the damaging. Since you can use your swift or move actions to teleport, you can use your standard action to cast a spell, either damaging or debuffing or your foes.
It looks really stylish: teleport in, full-attack for good damage and finish with a channeled spell. Or rather: bombard them with magic, teleport in and finish them with your full attack. You can even teleport your way out of trouble later.

[Keld Denar]

If you're channelling DAMAGE, sure. Hitting them with Daze Monster, Hideous Laughter, Hesitate, or Entice Gift can be pretty rewarding. (Mind you I'd only take some of those spells as an Arcane Channeller...)

Eh, Suel's aren't known for the outstanding save DCs either. Most Suel spells are intended to be self buffs. Also, Suels don't get Enchantment either. Sure, you COULD channel a Phantasmal Killer at someone, but by the time you are able to do it, the DC will be laughable. About the best you could hope for would be channeling a Dispel Magic, but even that won't be great since by the time you are able to, you'll have already hit the CL cap and the DCs will be scaling faster than you are.

Suels get Divination, Illusion, Transmutation, and Abjuration.

[gbprime]

Suels get Divination, Illusion, Transmutation, and Abjuration.

Huh. For some reason I thought Enchantment was also on their list. My bad. :smallsigh:

[SurlySeraph]

Um...SacEx is kinda restrictive in that you HAVE to have Dismissal as a 4th level spell known. Given that you won't have 4th level spells until ECL12, that means that your first SacEx level will be at 13, which means you have to be level 13 in order to Persist things. Also, you only get like, 3 4th level spells known, and there are so many other great 4th level Suel spells I'd rather know...like Greater Mirror Image, Greater Invis, and whatnot.

The way I built it, you could theoretically start persisting spells at 4th-6th level, depending on build. Straight up, you could persist a Rhino's Rush or Divine Favor or Bless Weapon off the Pally list, and then at 7 you could persist Shield or Enlarge Person quite easily, and it gets better from there. Remember, though, you only get to use it twice per day, so choose your spells wisely.

Good point. I'll go along those lines, then.


If you could get a pally variant that gives you enough ranger feel, you could swap the 2 levels of Ranger for 2 levels of Duskblade, take TWFing as a feat, and go Pal4/Dusk2 as your build chassis to get into Suel. Thats about the most optimized Suel entry anyway. Dusk2 gives you Combat Casting as a bonus feat which you need for Suel and AbjChamp, so that saves you a feat you could spend on TWFing.

I know there is a Pally variant in CoV that gives the Track feat and Survival as a class skill as a trade for Smite, someone used it in the Iron Optimization thread for Vigilante. I'll have a peek there quick.

Noble Heart Paladin, yep. I think I'll go with that. I'll switch the SA Fighter level to Duskblade and focus on channeling dispels and no-save things.

Thanks for all the help, everyone!

[Person_Man]

I don't know much about Binders; Focolor for debuffing and Naberius for evading ability damage are about all I know about. Are there any vestiges you'd recommend for this concept?

Karsus vestige is your TWF gem. Lets you use magic items as a Wizard, which opens up the use of wands and staffs. Take the Eilservs School feat (Drow of the Underdark). When you strike a creature with a magic staff, it deals +1 damage for every 10 charges it contains. And if you strike a creature with both ends, you can activate one of the spells in the staff (on your target or on you) as a Swift action. As double weapons, staffs can be enchanted on each side separately. I suggest looking through the Magic Item Compendium for your favorite Save or Suck effects. My favorite is good old Spell Storing from the DMG, which when combined with Eilservs School will let you deliver 3 spells on your first full attack. Karsus also adds +2 to the Save DC of any magic item you use (including spell trigger items), making all of these spells and effects better. You can also use Greater Dispel Magic on touch, which is a great debuff against BBEG casters.

In addition, there are plenty of vestiges which let you spam individual spells and/or grant fun combos: Naberius for Disguise Self and Diplomancy, Malphas for Invisibility and scouting, Astrath for Suggestion, Tenebrous for Darkness and Turn Undead, Acererak for Lord of the Uttercold combo, Balam for a reroll on any die (great for Skills), Chupoclops for Pounce and a debuff aura, Zceryll for infinite summoning, and so on.



On status effects, I was thinking of Bladeweave, spell-storing weapons, and possibly using Death Devotion. Are there any cheap ways of getting status effects you'd recommend?

The above combo works well - just pick spells that debuff. I would also suggest taking a look at nets, lasso, Boomerang Daze (Races of Ebberon), Staggering Strike (Comp Adventurer), Dire Flail Smash (Champions of Ruin), Anvil of Thunder (Comp Warrior), Ironsoul Forgemaster (capstone ability, Magic of Incarnum), Three Mountains Style (Comp Warrior), Ragewild Fighter (Races of Ebberon), Born of The Three Thunders (Comp Arcane - cast it on Flame Blade or a similar spell. You're Dazed for one round. Then whenever you damage an enemy with said spell, they must Save or be Stunned and Prone).