How good is a wilder?

[Half-orc Bard]

I've never seen one played or played one, and I was wondering how good they are. They seem very underpowered. Also what teir would it be in? thankyou internet.

[dgnslyr]

Not as awesome as a Psion. Still, any full-caster is going to be pretty strong, no matter how you cut it. I don't have too much personal experience with it, though.

[Tael]

High tier 4, last I checked. They're really terrible compared to a Psion.

[CN the Logos]

I've never played one, but general consensus puts them in Tier 3; on par with the beguiler, binder, and dread necromancer.

[Half-orc Bard]

cool thanks now for a new question: How does a Psion fare against a wizard.

[Tael]

cool thanks now for a new question: How does a Psion fare against a wizard.

Psion is tier 2, wizard is tier 1. Spells are generally a bit better than powers, as are the non-core options available to casters. Also, a Psion cannot learn spells from scrolls.


I've never played one, but general consensus puts them in Tier 3; on par with the beguiler, binder, and dread necromancer.

Have you seen the number of powers a Wilder gets? It's not nearly as good as a Beguiler, or a DN.

[Jack_Simth]

cool thanks now for a new question: How does a Psion fare against a wizard.

It's Tier-2 vs. Tier-1. Tier-2 gets to pick one way to shatter the world, and has to stick with it for the rest of his days. Tier-1 gets to pick a different way to shatter the world every morning. I'm exaggerating a bit, but that's the difference between the two tiers, and Wizard is tier 1, while Psion is tier 2.

[Angry Bob]

There's the Educated Wilder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) ACF, which seems to improve it slightly. Come to think of it, Mantled Wilder doesn't really lose you anything too valuable either, unless your DM has a fetish for touch attacks.

It does get better skill points that the Psion, but not really, because the psion is likely to have higher Int.

Also, Anarchic Initiate. Educated feat from Eberron Campaign Setting to meet prereqs.

I've heard you can make a passable gish with them, but I've never seen it myself and Psychic Warrior is probably better for that anyway.

[AslanCross]

cool thanks now for a new question: How does a Psion fare against a wizard.

The Psion has a far more limited selection of powers than the Wizard, which can theoretically learn all the spells learned ever. The difference between Tier 2 and Tier 1 is that Tier 2 has the power but not the versatility, if I remember correctly.

The Psion tends to fire its higher-level powers more times per day than a wizard, but unlike the sorcerer, the psion's damage-dealing powers have a great deal of versatility (being able to choose energy types, in addition to augmentation). However, the Psion still only gets to choose so many.

[Psyren]

Wilders are pretty weak, as was stated. 11 powers known over your career is pitiful (one of each power level, with an extra first and an extra up to 9th.), and they follow the sorcerer's delayed progression to boot. Their signature ability gets more dangerous to use as you gain levels, and their other good ability is tied to it. Their remaining abilities are wonky at best and irrelevant at worst.

There are both official and non-official patches for them. Educated Wilder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) brings them up to T3, by trading their most useless class feature for much-needed powers known. It's so good it should be mandatory, however it discourages multi-classing. Avoid Mantled Wilder - it actually makes them WORSE!

The best fix I've seen is the DSP Wilder. (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/wilder) Much more flavorful and exciting, and while the powers known are still small, you don't feel the pinch as much. (Plus, Educated Wilder works with it just fine if you do want to boost your repertoire.) The capstone is totally DBZ and exactly what I'd expect of the class.

I think someone from these forums (Samb?) had a Wilder handbook going.

[Escheton]

If you want to play an incredibly hot person that has migranes that scorches everthing close by. Wilders rule.
Otherwise, not so much.

[Zaq]

A Wilder is as good as you make them. With Educated Wilder and a couple additional applications of Expanded Knowledge, a Wilder can do pretty much whatever you need them to do, and they'll do it pretty well. Powers are strong enough (and versatile enough, if you pick the right ones) to get done what needs to get done.

They're very easy to screw up, as a bad power pick will really hinder you if you don't have Psychic Reformation or the opportunity to retrain . . . but if you pick a solid base of powers, they're still very powerful. I'd put them at the very bottom of Tier 2. Extremely limited versatility, but still capable of rewriting the world as they see fit (if played well).

[tyckspoon]

The best fix I've seen is the DSP Wilder. (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/wilder) Much more flavorful and exciting, and while the powers known are still small, you don't feel the pinch as much. (Plus, Educated Wilder works with it just fine if you do want to boost your repertoire.) The capstone is totally DBZ and exactly what I'd expect of the class.


I'm not sure how much of a fix this really is, to be honest. Sure, high-value Surges are less likely to enervate, but it kinda screws low-level Wilders.. you still have to deal with enervation completely sucking, you still have punitively low powers known.. it doesn't really do a lot to fix the Wilder. Just makes Elude Touch into a useful feature. Even the capstone, while cool, has an unnecessary cost in ability *burn* in addition to the mandatory enervation and 1/day limit. The Maenad sub levels are cool, but I really don't see how the DSP version does anything to address the basic flaws.

[Psyren]

I'm not sure how much of a fix this really is, to be honest. Sure, high-value Surges are less likely to enervate, but it kinda screws low-level Wilders.. you still have to deal with enervation completely sucking, you still have punitively low powers known.. it doesn't really do a lot to fix the Wilder. Just makes Elude Touch into a useful feature. Even the capstone, while cool, has an unnecessary cost in ability *burn* in addition to the mandatory enervation and 1/day limit. The Maenad sub levels are cool, but I really don't see how the DSP version does anything to address the basic flaws.

Does it honestly hurt that much early on? 85% success rate means your gamble is probably going to go off without a hitch. Besides, Enervation is supposed to suck - WS is very powerful - an Overchannel that pays for your augmentation is a big deal.

I agree on the powers known bit, Educated Wilder is still needed. But the Elude Touch and Volatile Mind fixes are great.

[tyckspoon]

Does it honestly hurt that much early on? 85% success rate means your gamble is probably going to go off without a hitch. Besides, Enervation is supposed to suck - WS is very powerful - an Overchannel that pays for your augmentation is a big deal.


Default Wilder, a +1 surge only has a 5% enervation chance, and +2 is 10%. Lower-level Wilders can't get as much out of their surges, but they're safer in use too. Higher level, the DSP version is nothing but an upgrade, it's just kinda a kick in the teeth for starting characters.

[Psyren]

Default Wilder, a +1 surge only has a 5% enervation chance, and +2 is 10%.

It's indeed true that 95% and 90% are better than 85%, but not enough so to be a big issue imo.

[Prime32]

Default Wilder, a +1 surge only has a 5% enervation chance, and +2 is 10%. Lower-level Wilders can't get as much out of their surges, but they're safer in use too. Higher level, the DSP version is nothing but an upgrade, it's just kinda a kick in the teeth for starting characters.What about "Wild surging incurs a 15% of enervation. This is reduced by -5% for each level below your maximum you choose to apply"?

In other words
Wilder 1: Wild surge +1 (15%)
Wilder 3: Wild surge +2 (15%), Wild surge +1 (10%)
Wilder 7: Wild surge +3 (15%), Wild surge +2 (10%), Wild surge +1 (5%)
Wilder 11: Wild surge +4 (15%), Wild surge +3 (10%), Wild surge +2 (5%), Wild surge +1 (0%)
Wilder 15: Wild surge +5 (15%), Wild surge +4 (10%), Wild surge +3 (5%), Wild surge +2 or lower (0%)
Wilder 19: Wild surge +6 (15%), Wild surge +5 (10%), Wild surge +4 (5%), Wild surge +3 or lower (0%)

[AstralFire]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90718

I'll just leave this here. My flavorful Wilder fix.

[Psyren]

What about "Wild surging incurs a 15% of enervation. This is reduced by -5% for each level below your maximum you choose to apply"?

My thing is - DSP is right flavorwise - an ability named Wild Surge really shouldn't be controllable like that. That's like going a little crazy or somewhat flipping out.

If you did want to fix it, 5% per level capping at 15%, with always maximum surging, would help low-level wilders out a bit. But I still don't think 85% success is that bad, especially when at level 3 you'll be tossing out level 5 powers for no extra charge.

Now, the delayed power access, I definitely think should be fixed.

[Tael]

Even looking past the 15% enervation thing, how is the DSP Wilder any better? Elude attack is kind of nice, but it's not that good. Why is this a good fix?