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alexthemad
2010-12-06, 01:34 AM
Ok, so my friend is starting a Vampire the Masquerade game. We were discussing character options and someone mentioned a Werewolf hunter/slayer. The GM said good luck, cause there is no way a vampire can kill a werewolf in fight. He actually said that nothing less than a 5th gen vamp can beat a werewolf in a fight. I don't know much about werewolves, but I just don't think that can be right.

After a bit of discussion, he finally changed his original statement saying that there is no way that a new vampire character, made by the book with no xp enhancements can kill a werewolf without alot of extensive preperation and planning. In a straight up mano-a-mano fight the werewolf wins everytime. Is he right? Is there that big of a power difference between the vamps and the wolves.

Can anyone provide insight on this?

tcrudisi
2010-12-06, 02:46 AM
He's correct. Of course, the dice rolls could be extremely unbalanced, but yes, he's correct. However - vampires gain power more quickly than werewolves do. One elder vampire can defeat a whole pack of werewolves without breaking much of a sweat.

So basically, if you look at things on a 1 to 10 scale, vampires start off as a 1 and end as a 10. Werewolves start as a 4 and end as a 6. (Numbers are made up, but they help to get the point across).

vrellum
2010-12-06, 02:54 AM
And then there are mages...


But yeah, that's basically right. Werewolves are a lot tougher in a straight on fight. At least starting werewolves are a lot tougher than starting vamps. Doesn't mean a vampire could kill one, but he would have to play smart.

Warlawk
2010-12-06, 02:57 AM
I will state right up front that it's probably been over 10 years since I cracked my oWoD vamp/WW books.

Yes, he's right.

A starting vamp character has access to a lot of social and utility abilities that your average starting WW character does not. The WW however is much much more capable in combat.

A starting vamp tricked out for fighting against a support type WW character like a Thuerge or something might be a bit of a close fight, but smart money would still be on the werewolf. A combat built with an eye toward fighting would make the matchup pretty moot and likely just tear the leech apart in very short order.

As I said though, it's been 10+ years since I've really looked at those books, much less played. When I did play, the two werewolves that I played for any decent amount of time were a Get of Fenris Lupus/Ahroun and a Stargazer Kailindo Klaive duelist, so that could be slanting my view on this subject as well.

(Sabbat like to play a game where they bring other supernatural creatures into a city, then release them and hunt them to freak out the normals)At one point my Get of Fenris was kidnapped by Sabbat and brought into a good sized city (don't recall which one). So he wakes up from being poisoned or something and they're pulling him out of the van in an empty construction zone and the 6 leeches tell him he has 5 minutes to run, then they're going to hunt and kill him. At this point, that character had probably played 50+ sessions and had a healthy chunk of XP spent. He stood there waiting for the 5 minutes to be up and just ripped all 6 to shreds on the spot. They were built using the vampire system as 12th gen vamps, since we actually had both games our storyteller didn't see any point in using watered down versions from the villain section of the werewolf book. They were intended as mooks to set up a larger conflict with the vampires of the city, and were facing off a very well developed WW, but it wasn't even much of a fight.

Warlawk
2010-12-06, 02:59 AM
And then there are mages...


Our DM flinches to this day if anyone says "What are the chances..."

Yeah, a couple of us players REALLY liked the oWoD entropy 2 power that let you just outright manipulate probability and chance. Couple it with a high Arete score and you could do some pretty silly stuff.

Semidi
2010-12-06, 07:03 AM
I believe there's a path out of Chaining the Beast that promotes hunting werewolves or something (it's a spin on Feral Heart and path of Beast)--could be cool for flavor (I forget the name at the moment). Anyway.

Your best bet might be a high powered (anti-material?)rifle with silver bullets, claymores with silver pellets, lots of ghouls with combat shotguns, and other traps like pitfalls with silver stakes. The main things will be to stay away from the WW and use lots of prep and cannon fodder.

I'd really suggest to the player that he start off as a non-werewolf hunter and build up to it as sort of a goal sort of like the ultimate trophy.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-06, 07:11 AM
And then there are mages...


But yeah, that's basically right. Werewolves are a lot tougher in a straight on fight. At least starting werewolves are a lot tougher than starting vamps. Doesn't mean a vampire could kill one, but he would have to play smart.

Q: Who beats who in a fight, a vampire or a werewolf?
A: The Mage wins initiative and turns them both into lawn chairs.

comicshorse
2010-12-06, 07:22 AM
I believe there's a path out of Chaining the Beast that promotes hunting werewolves or something (it's a spin on Feral Heart and path of Beast)--could be cool for flavor (I forget the name at the moment). Anyway.

Your best bet might be a high powered (anti-material?)rifle with silver bullets, claymores with silver pellets, lots of ghouls with combat shotguns, and other traps like pitfalls with silver stakes. The main things will be to stay away from the WW and use lots of prep and cannon fodder.

I'd really suggest to the player that he start off as a non-werewolf hunter and build up to it as sort of a goal sort of like the ultimate trophy.

Yes to this. A starting character can take a werewolf but not by going toe-to-toe with it. You want sniper rifles( preferably with silver nitrate rounds), booby-traps and every dirty trick you can think of. Ideally the werewolf should never know he's being hunted until its too late.
But yes this is very dangerous for a starting character.

Psyx
2010-12-06, 07:41 AM
Err... silver nitrate is firstly a liquid, and secondly doesn't do anything special to werewolves AFAIK. It's silver that hurts werewolves, not compounds of it. Otherwise they'd be taking agg from those mirrors they always carry and stained glass windows!

I'm not sure why you'd use a liquid in a bullet anyway... just use a silver bullet!

Simba
2010-12-06, 07:52 AM
Q: Who beats who in a fight, a vampire or a werewolf?
A: The Mage wins initiative and turns them both into lawn chairs.

Unless the Werewolf is very good and has the I-go-first-whatever-you-do gift (Spirit of the Fray? Maybe...). The he simply wins.

Psyx
2010-12-06, 07:54 AM
Werewolves are easily enough evaded or driven off by vampires in combat: Dread Gaze and the other Presence and Dominate abilities are pretty cast-iron in getting a vampire out alive. Failing that, celerity or protean are good for escaping.

Actually killing the werewolf is a little more of a problem, though.

'A werewolf' is like saying 'a character' though. Not every werewolf is even statted for combat. Many are pretty 'non combat' in choice of gifts and abilities: Not every werewolf is a killing machine. Not every werewolf is a Get of Fenris Aroun with silver tolerance, razor claws and Brawl 3. If you happen to run into such a werewolf you are of course DEAD. But there's a lot of them that are nowhere near as fearsome.

Next up for our Vampire: Don't get ambushed. A werewolf stepping from the umbra, and spending rage for extra actions on an unprepared Vampire = dead vampire. For preference: ambush the werewolf.

You really need to do agg to kill werewolves. So that's lvl 2 Protean then... or... a silver weapon. So bung starting points into Resources and get yourself a bunch of silver ammunition or a weapon. Easily possible at start-up, especially if the character is designed to be a were-wolf hunter. I'm not sure I know many GMs who'd allow it myself, but if you can get away with it, then you've just overcome one of the major problems with dealing with werewolves: Regeneration. You can do it via Protean, but that means a Gangrel, and that means no celerity at start-up, and that means death for any combat vampire, really. Fortitude only gets you so far against agg.

Celerity goes a long way towards blunting those rage actions. It's kind of essential stuff if you're fighting in close quarters with a werewolf. Although I wouldn't recommend that approach. Standing a long way away with a magazine of silver bullets and eight similarly equipped allies, or setting off a large bomb are far safer alternatives. Although, you need to make sure that the werewolf is dead inside a combat round (which is VERY difficult with firearms) or it's going to step into the umbra, avoid the ambush, and pop out somewhere horrible.

Tl;dr:

Werewolf ambushing vampire = Dead Vampire

Vampire ambushing werewolf with a truck-full of booby trapped napalm = dead werewolf

Solo Vampire ambushing werewolf with silver bullets = Wounded werewolf that then goes into the umbra and starts looking for the soon to be dead vampire

Toe-to-toe fight with a maxxed out starting vampire with silver weapons and celerity versus Arooun werewolf or other combat-statted werewolf = dead vampire. You can't fight a sledge-hammer with a ball-peen hammer.

Toe-to-toe fight with a maxxed out starting vampire with silver weapons and celerity versus a non-combat werewolf = dead werewolf.


So yeah: You can be a werewolf hunter. You just need to either use napalm and ambushes, or convince your GM to give you silver weapons and celerity, and then pick on really weak werewolves, and make sure they die before side-stepping.

Psyx
2010-12-06, 07:55 AM
Also: By MET, werewolves are big wusses.

Maxxed celerity and potence both win all ties on physical challenges, instantly rendering the werewolf's massive trait advantage pretty much moot.

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-06, 08:00 AM
Err... silver nitrate is firstly a liquid, and secondly doesn't do anything special to werewolves AFAIK. It's silver that hurts werewolves, not compounds of it. Otherwise they'd be taking agg from those mirrors they always carry and stained glass windows!

I'm not sure why you'd use a liquid in a bullet anyway... just use a silver bullet!

Somebody hasn't seen Underworld.....

Earthwalker
2010-12-06, 08:15 AM
This is from memory so is problably totaly wrong but the points buy recomendations for the three different OwoD books when converting to Gurps was something like.

Vampire : 150
Mage : 300
Werewolf : 450 (228 of that was for the were wolf package)

I am sure it was something like this. It should be clear to see how vampires fit into the physical powerlevel.

As people has said it can be done. Just would be tricky, and if a leech wants to make a living killing puppies he better be prepared to face a pack coming after him.

Psyx
2010-12-06, 09:00 AM
Somebody hasn't seen Underworld.....

Somebody has (if only for the catsuit), but quite likes science, knows a bit about firearms, and doesn't really like either being trampled over in the hunt for entirely infeasible HIGHEXPLOSIVE FINSTABILISED MERCURYTIPPED MAGNUMSILVERNITRATE HYPERVELOCITYARMOURPIERCING GYROJETDEPLETEDAMMUNITION CASELESSWATERPROOFHEATSEEKING QUIETUSPOSIONED DRAGONBREATHROUNDS fired from .50AEdeserteagles convertedtofullyautomatic withdrummagazineslasersights silencersunderbarrelgreandelaunchers andceramicbodiessoyoucangothroughaircraftsecuritym achinepistols.

One in each hand, obviously.



Edit: Spelled .50AEdeserteagles convertedtofullyautomaticwithdrummagazines lasersightssilencersunderbarrelgreandelaunchers andceramicbodiessoyoucangothroughaircraftsecuritym achinepistols. wrong. :smallbiggrin:

J.Gellert
2010-12-06, 09:13 AM
It's possible. Don't underestimate Presence and such :smalltongue: You can build a vampire that can kill werewolves reliably.

Now whether "reliably" is the same as "werewolf hunter" is a point of contention... It's not the same as a human deer-hunter, but, you know...

alexthemad
2010-12-06, 09:34 AM
Alright, thanks. So if my buddy makes the werewolf hunter, I need to distance myself from him....got it. Thanks for the clarification.

tcrudisi
2010-12-06, 09:45 AM
It's possible. Don't underestimate Presence and such :smalltongue: You can build a vampire that can kill werewolves reliably.

Now whether "reliably" is the same as "werewolf hunter" is a point of contention... It's not the same as a human deer-hunter, but, you know...

Can a properly-built vampire stand a chance against a werewolf? Err... sure, although even non-combat werewolves are still combat-oriented.

However, can a properly-built vampire stand a chance against a pack of werewolves? No way. And werewolves do tend to travel in packs. Or, if you do manage to find one alone and kill him, you still have to deal with the pack and they will discover who killed him fairly quickly and easily ... unless you get lucky and take out the Theurge first. :smalltongue:

Zeta Kai
2010-12-06, 09:48 AM
Yeah, the oWoD heirarchy of power goes (roughly) like this:

Humans
Hunters
Vampires
Wraiths
Mages
Changelings
Demons
Werewolves

Now, a well-built character can leap-frog down a notch or two, & a poorly-built character can be surpassed by the decent advancements of the guys above them, but that's the gist of it. Werewolves were undoubtedly (& appropriately) the alpha dogs of the oWoD world. Many things could put them down, but most of those were NPC entities, elder beings that had amassed a great deal of power, or large packs of lesser beings with the proper equipment. For the record, I have no experience with mummies (who does?), so I don't know where they fit in to the list.

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-06, 09:49 AM
Somebody has (if only for the catsuit), but quite likes science, knows a bit about firearms, and doesn't really like either being trampled over in the hunt for entirely infeasible HIGHEXPLOSIVEFINSTABILISED MERCURYTIPPEDMAGNUMSILVERNITRATE HYPERVELOCITYARMOURPIERCINGGYROJET DEPLETEDAMMUNITIONCASELESS WATERPROOFHEATSEEKINGQUIETUSPOSIONED DRAGONBREATHROUNDS fired from .50AEdeserteaglesconverted tofullyautomaticwithdrummagazines lasersightssilencersunderbarrelgreandelaunchers andceramicbodiessoyoucangothroughaircraftsecuritym achinepistols.

One in each hand, obviously.



Edit: Spelled .50AEdeserteaglesconvertedtofullyautomaticwithdrum magazines lasersightssilencersunderbarrelgreandelaunchers andceramicbodiessoyoucangothroughaircraftsecuritym achinepistols. wrong. :smallbiggrin:

I'm glad you're not concerned with actually getting someone to read your posts. That takes courage. :smallwink::smallamused:

Psyx
2010-12-06, 09:52 AM
In my limited experience, Bane Mummies walk in and kill everything in amusing manners.

I'd also say that by the later stages of the game it's certainly possible for combat vampires to kick seven shades out of werewolves (remember celerity is like rage in that it gives extra actions... but works for a lot longer. So a vampire who can suck down the initial burst of rage-actions has a hefty advantage in the golden action economy). But not at start-up. And as great as presence is at keeping you alive in the face of werewolves, it doesn't alone actually kill them.

Psyx
2010-12-06, 09:53 AM
I'm glad you're not concerned with actually getting someone to read your posts.

I'm sure a brief skim of the line, and picking out of a couple of words gets the gist over, and immediately brings to mind a few of 'those' type of players who we all know!

tcrudisi
2010-12-06, 10:05 AM
I'm sure a brief skim of the line, and picking out of a couple of words gets the gist over, and immediately brings to mind a few of 'those' type of players who we all know!

Perhaps, but I'm sure a lot of people read it like I did: "Oh look, no spaces. Pass." That's why I found it amusing that KHE posted exactly what I was thinking. :smallamused:

Sir Swindle89
2010-12-06, 10:47 AM
Somebody has (if only for the catsuit), but quite likes science, knows a bit about firearms, and doesn't really like either being trampled over in the hunt for entirely infeasible HIGHEXPLOSIVE FINSTABILISEDMERCURYTIPPEDMAGNUMSILVERNITRATE HYPERVELOCITY ARMOURPIERCINGGYROJETDEPLETED AMMUNITIONCASELESSWATERPROOFHEATSEEKING QUIETUSPOSIONEDDRAGONBREATHROUNDS fired from .50AEdeserteagles convertedtofullyautomaticwithdrummagazines lasersightssilencers underbarrelgreandelaunchers andceramicbodiessoyoucangothrough aircraftsecuritymachinepistols.

One in each hand, obviously.



Edit: Spelled .50AEdeserteaglesconvertedtofully automaticwithdrummagazineslasersights silencersunderbarrelgreandelaunchersand ceramicbodiessoyoucangothroughaircraftsecuritymach inepistols. wrong. :smallbiggrin:

So yay your still not dealing aggrevated damage. Underworld has no bearing on WoD. WoD (not sure about old) specifically points out that compounds and even silver plated things don't deal aggravated to werewolves.

Psyx
2010-12-06, 10:53 AM
So yay your still not dealing aggrevated damage. Underworld has no bearing on WoD. WoD (not sure about old) specifically points out that compounds and even silver plated things don't deal aggravated to werewolves.


Eh? Yes, I know. That was my point.

If you want to hurt a werewolf with bullets, then make some proper solid silver bullets. It's far easier (ie can be done at home with a home-loading kit.), far more reliable and ballistically superior (because bullets with liquids in them aren't so great), and it actually works and does agg.

Warlawk
2010-12-06, 10:57 AM
Yeah, the oWoD heirarchy of power goes (roughly) like this:

Humans
Hunters
Vampires
Wraiths
Mages
Changelings
Demons
Werewolves

Now, a well-built character can leap-frog down a notch or two, & a poorly-built character can be surpassed by the decent advancements of the guys above them, but that's the gist of it. Werewolves were undoubtedly (& appropriately) the alpha dogs of the oWoD world. Many things could put them down, but most of those were NPC entities, elder beings that had amassed a great deal of power, or large packs of lesser beings with the proper equipment. For the record, I have no experience with mummies (who does?), so I don't know where they fit in to the list.

Bearing in mind that it's been a long while since I cracked these books open...

The fact that Mages are in the middle of your list immediately makes me think twice. As someone posted above:

The mage wins initiative (quite possibly by making time his bitch) and turns all the others into lawn chairs. Almost any mage regardless of which sphere he focused on should have plenty of tricks that aren't based on damage and will outright take his opponent out of the fight. Paradox might make him regret it afterward, but it doesn't mean he can't do it.

comicshorse
2010-12-06, 11:51 AM
Err... silver nitrate is firstly a liquid, and secondly doesn't do anything special to werewolves AFAIK. It's silver that hurts werewolves, not compounds of it. Otherwise they'd be taking agg from those mirrors they always carry and stained glass windows!

I'm not sure why you'd use a liquid in a bullet anyway... just use a silver bullet!

Well I'm only going on the Freak Legion book here but Pentex equipped their anti-werewolf teams with these. The idea presumably being that they were a variant of explosive bullets which both exploded and dealt aggravated damage.
I have no idea how viable these really are I'm only going on what was in the White Wolf book
And yes by the rules in the book they dealt Aggravated damage

Psyx
2010-12-06, 12:29 PM
Which is odd, because Silver Nitrate isn't explosive...

Mark Hall
2010-12-06, 07:54 PM
It's possible, provided you don't consider a silver dagger to be horribly exotic. I did it with a FoB 14th Gen Brujah; the only help he got was a Lasombra magician making him a silver dagger.

The key bits of the build were a Dot in Celerity, two Dots in Potence, and four dots in Melee, with a specialty in knives. Physical should be primary stats, though you could pull it off with secondary.

Vampire Companion introduced a rule allowing you to make multiple strikes with a knife on a single action; you just had to split your dice pool. With Celerity 1, you can take two actions in a round. Four attacks with a silver dagger, with 2 potence (automatic strength successes = automatic damage) means about 8 damage successes that the werewolf cannot soak because it comes from silver.

Provided the vampire has surprise, or a way of surviving the first attack with his dice pools mostly intact, he can tear up a werewolf in short order.

If I were building a werewolf killer vampire, I'd have Primary Physical and Skills, Secondary Mental and Talents, Tertiary Mental and Knowledges. Brujah would be a good Clan, as would Nosferatu (there may be other good ones, but I'm working from memory). You're going to want a fair amount of Strength and Dexterity, Melee, Stealth and Dodge. Firearms is also nice, but then you'll want Craft skills to make your silver bullets, and it takes less advantage of Potence. Good disciplines are going to be Fortitude (allowing you a bit of soak), Celerity (allowing you to take multiple actions), Obfuscate (allowing you to hide) and potence (allowing high damage).

Make no mistake: You WILL die. Painfully. But, it will be "eventually", rather than "immediately".

Zeta Kai
2010-12-06, 08:11 PM
Bearing in mind that it's been a long while since I cracked these books open...

The fact that Mages are in the middle of your list immediately makes me think twice. As someone posted above:

The mage wins initiative (quite possibly by making time his bitch) and turns all the others into lawn chairs. Almost any mage regardless of which sphere he focused on should have plenty of tricks that aren't based on damage and will outright take his opponent out of the fight. Paradox might make him regret it afterward, but it doesn't mean he can't do it.

In my experience, it wasn't hard for WW to get the drop on a mage & turn him into salsa. The same could not always be said for the reverse scenario.

Semidi
2010-12-06, 08:53 PM
Also: By MET, werewolves are big wusses.

Maxxed celerity and potence both win all ties on physical challenges, instantly rendering the werewolf's massive trait advantage pretty much moot.

If I remember correctly, crossvenue supplements (Dark Epics I think) made puissance and Fleetness +10 traits instead of a WoT when dealing with other venues. Or that could have been a house rule--I forget.

Another word of advice: become good friends with someone with Thaum--ward against Lupines, umbra passage, scent of lupines passing (I think that's what it's called...). All of these rituals will help a lot and will help you not get killed as quickly. The trick is becoming friends with someone with Thaum...

JaronK
2010-12-06, 08:56 PM
Except the Mage could simply cast spells like "Know if anything might hurt me in the next 5 minutes." And then, knowing he's going to be ambushed like that, he could ensure that the Werewolf actually ambushes a silver statue full of explosives. As such, getting the drop on them becomes an exercise in futility. Really, what Mages could do in that game ends up being very much like D&D Wizards. Except it's even more flexible.

JaronK

Glimbur
2010-12-06, 08:58 PM
Yeah, the oWoD heirarchy of power goes (roughly) like this:

Humans
Hunters
Vampires
Wraiths
Mages
Changelings
Demons
Werewolves



Question: where do Street Fighter characters fall on that list? I'm going to guestimate somewhere between Hunters and Vampires, but I don't have enough oWoD knowledge to back that up.

Skjaldbakka
2010-12-06, 09:04 PM
The werewolf has the clear advantage until we are talking elder vampires, which pretty much just win at everything in oWoD.

Sure, you can talk about how an optimized vampire with a good plan and the benefit of surprise can take a werewolf, but .... werewolves can be optimized and have good plans and ambush you too, so that is a total wash.

Just comparing raw combat potential, the werewolves are the kings of combat. Heck they still are in new world of darkness, even though they got their teeth pulled.

Just think about what werewolves have as antagonists... they get to be hardcore combat monstrosities because they get to fight Cthulhu on steroids. And that isn't even the boss, its a random encounter, because it's Tuesday. Vampires are just speed bumps unless they are elders.

There isn't really any point in even discussing old mage, as it wasn't about stats, it was about your ability to convince the ST to let you do things. This is why I like new Mage, because there are much better guidelines for what you can do.

Edit - as for MET - Werewolves can be statted with Potence/Celerity as well. The werewolves we encountered in the MET game I was in had werewolf cheese on top of Potence and Celerity. We had an elder Lasombra anti-tribu though, so... it didn't really matter.

Electrohydra
2010-12-06, 09:09 PM
"Know if anything might hurt me in the next 5 minutes."

Or even better... when will I be attacked next. Or if he has the power, just make some contingency-like effect that makes any non-human (because you don't want the paradox) that strikes you turn to stone. Or to silver if he's feeling funny. Really, there is almost nothing a very powerful mage can do if he's smart (and he avoids paradox. Stupid paradox).

GeminiVeil
2010-12-06, 10:00 PM
Vampire Companion introduced a rule allowing you to make multiple strikes with a knife on a single action; you just had to split your dice pool. With Celerity 1, you can take two actions in a round. Four attacks with a silver dagger, with 2 potence (automatic strength successes = automatic damage) means about 8 damage successes that the werewolf cannot soak because it comes from silver.


Which edition is this? 1st, 2nd, or Revised? The reason I ask is that the revised Celerity, I thought, stated you can't subdivide it's actions into more multiple actions.

archon_huskie
2010-12-06, 10:18 PM
The thing is that V:tM was not designed with the intention of having a PC vampire go toe to toe with a PC werewolf.

Your buddy making this character might want to consider other ways for fighting werewolves. Consider this. What elder vampire is alive who fights his own battles? None they have people to do their fighting for them.

Think about having a small task force (Maybe he owns a private security firm) of ghouls. A library of werewolf lore (Mentor or there's a background for occult library in the Tremere clanbook rev). And of course money to throw at problems (blackmailing werewolves by holding back development of undeveloped lands)

Or be a diplomat by giving the werewolves information on Sabbat or BSD in the city or even your own enemies and let them attack them.

No need to fight them yourself.

JaronK
2010-12-06, 10:32 PM
Or even better... when will I be attacked next. Or if he has the power, just make some contingency-like effect that makes any non-human (because you don't want the paradox) that strikes you turn to stone. Or to silver if he's feeling funny. Really, there is almost nothing a very powerful mage can do if he's smart (and he avoids paradox. Stupid paradox).

"The next person who would attack me in any way that might be a serious threat has a blood clot work its way into their brain causing death, 2 minutes before the attack would happen. If blood clots in the brain wouldn't kill them, then their brain turns into one giant cancer." Coincidental when used on mortals, vulgar without witnesses otherwise, and works wonderfully. And you can deal with the paradox right then, days before the attack would happen (giving you time to let the paradox go).

Requires a bit of Time magic and Life magic. Maybe some Prime. Possibly also a little Correspondence.

JaronK

Jerthanis
2010-12-07, 12:12 AM
oWoD is a very lethal system, so I can't help assuming people are exaggerating when they say that just about any Werewolf could take any Vampire every time.

I remember in a Hunter game fighting 5 v 1 against a Werewolf and we basically killed it by pinning it to a wall with a truck long enough to take its head off (thank god for Martyrs). I don't really have any proof it was a by-the-book Werewolf style Werewolf, since the ST never discussed mechanics in any comprehensible way. ("Wait, this Mage bought bonus health levels? With Experience Points? How does that work? I don't remember that being possible... A pact with a Demon lets him do it? Huh?") but the key is that the environment, situation and setup does a lot to determine victory in addition to the traits listed on the character sheet.

Anyway, my point is always that these comparisons always list one Vampire with a sword, handgun, or claws versus one Werewolf in Crinos form in a street. Maybe that'd go ten for ten in the Werewolf's favor... but six Vampires in a pair of helicopters bearing miniguns full of silver bullets? That might be more even.

Also, if this Werewolf hunter character has low chances of success, and the rest of Vampire society reacts as such, he's got dozens of interesting motivations right off the bat. Interesting scenes of interaction with other, more experienced Vampires, accusations of risking the Masquerade fruitlessly, development of allies both toward killing Werewolves and advancing in society, a conflict involving fitting in when people have already written him off... and then startled awe, and not a little fear the first time he's successful. And if this guy winds up ash on the claws of a Werewolf and the rest of society rolls their eyes and says, "I told you so", then it's still a memorable character worth having played. This sounds like a great character, the more I think about it. I'm almost jealous now.

J.Gellert
2010-12-07, 04:50 AM
Well yeah. You are much more badass if you are systematically hunting something, which everyone agrees it cannot be killed. Doesn't matter if he uses Presence and a katana, or Celerity and a sniper rifle.

tcrudisi
2010-12-07, 07:19 AM
Maybe that'd go ten for ten in the Werewolf's favor... but six Vampires in a pair of helicopters bearing miniguns full of silver bullets? That might be more even.

It might. Oh, but there's a penalty from shooting from a moving helicopter? Bummer. Wait - where'd the werewolf go? He looked into a mirror and just disappeared while calling out to... an Owl? This makes no sense. Circle around one more time and we'll see if we can... "OH SWEET MOTHER OF GOD, IT'S IN THE HELICOPTER WITH US AND WE HAVE NOWHERE TO RUN! ... my last breath shall also be my mintiest."

Yeah, that about sums it up.

Tengu_temp
2010-12-07, 07:41 AM
Proof that werewolves are more powerful than vampires: the Dracula vs Wolfman movie. Wolfman wins.

J.Gellert
2010-12-07, 08:24 AM
"OH SWEET MOTHER OF GOD, IT'S IN THE HELICOPTER WITH US AND WE HAVE NOWHERE TO RUN! ... my last breath shall also be my mintiest."

If you are a vampire that can't survive a jump from height (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScmoqMNYhlU) while looking badass at the same time, you deserve to die.

Bonus points if you have rigged the heli with grenades.

With silver shrapnel.

Dingle
2010-12-07, 08:44 AM
well, one option is Celerity + silver sword:

Assumptions:
System: revised, vampire rules used in conradictions affecting both parties.
Battlefield: vampire is going hunting werewolf in the woods and manages to spot one, 1 full turns movement away, the werewolf spots him simultaneously.
Vampire: good hunter/swordsman, who has reached 4 in melee and celerity, decent physicals, and has spent blood(in advance) to bring dex to 6 for this scene. Has a silver/silver coated sword.
Werewolf: Basic cliath, alone, no more than 7 rage, homid stats 3 str, 3 dex, 2 brawl.

Simple Strategy:
werewolf claws in Crinos, using maximum rage actions
vampire parries all attacks, and then strikes back, will spent to ignore wound penalties.

vampire has 10 dice and a specialty (6 dex, 4 melee), werewolf has 6 dice (3+1(crinos) dex, 2 brawl)

parries:
vamp wins: werewolf takes 3-5 dice unsoakable damage (weapon base damage + extra successes)
were wins: vamp takes (3 base st r+4 crinos +1 claw= 8 dice unsoakable)

werewolf has at most 4 actions(can't spend over rage/2 rage per turn)
if vamp doesn't take more than 1 hit, gets to strike back doing 6-9 dice unsoakable damage per extra action (4 - (were's rage/2) = 1-3 extra actions)

under these circumstances, the vampire may have an advantage. I haven't calculated the parry probabilities.

Sir Swindle89
2010-12-07, 09:24 AM
Every one seems to be forgetting werewolves are pack creatures and vampires more or less hate each other. odds are if you go out hunting wolves you are gonna be on your own (because it's commonly considered suicide) and you are gonna be up against about what 5ish wolves. Basically if you just go out causally hunting you're dead dead. you might as well just go enjoy the sun rise.

Now assuming you have a lot of back up you might have a few other vampires with you (prolly not specced to the fangs but still have silver) and what the heck we'll say you have the helicopters piloted by ghouls... Nope still dead as hell against a pack. They teleport thing to the Heli's and take those out, you get focused to death every one else dies in other painfull ways (the Ravnos, Losombra and Nos might escape).

Even if you get one on their own then it's 4 rather than 5 and they are hunting YOU perhaps during the day and it's not like you have a castle to hide in, you're not dracula. You're dracula's bitch's bitch even if ur on the high end of the power scale for starting chatacters you're prolly sleeping in the back of some dive bar.

Dingle
2010-12-07, 09:47 AM
Every one seems to be forgetting werewolves are pack creatures

You're right, that'd be the biggest assumption. The main thing is that without the assumption, it gets way more complicated and I was going for a very simple scenario.

comicshorse
2010-12-07, 10:55 AM
There isn't really any point in even discussing old mage, as it wasn't about stats, it was about your ability to convince the ST to let you do things.



QFT and the reason I loathe the Old Mage system

Mark Hall
2010-12-07, 12:28 PM
Which edition is this? 1st, 2nd, or Revised? The reason I ask is that the revised Celerity, I thought, stated you can't subdivide it's actions into more multiple actions.

I'd have to look, but I don't think it was Revised.

archon_huskie
2010-12-07, 12:43 PM
You all seem to be thinking about this as how a camarilla character who hunt Werewolves.

How would a Sabbat character kill werewolves? SHOVELHEADS!

Werewolves have to breed to make more. Vampires don't.
Embrace all of their kinfolk. wait 70 years. remaining werewolves die of old age.

Psyx
2010-12-07, 01:18 PM
How would a Sabbat character kill werewolves? SHOVELHEADS!


I think you're getting mixed up with 'how do I give a Werewolf loads of easy Glory?'

I'm pretty sure a Werewolf can take 20 shovelheaded and unskilled Cainites.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-07, 01:41 PM
I think you're getting mixed up with 'how do I give a Werewolf loads of easy Glory?'

I'm pretty sure a Werewolf can take 20 shovelheaded and unskilled Cainites.

I think you misunderstood him, or I did. he's not saying send shovelheads against the Werewolf, he's saying do a mass-Embrace of all the Werewolf's kinfolk, then run and hide until he dies of old age. I guess that counts as 'killing' him?

Sir Swindle89
2010-12-07, 01:43 PM
werewolf > 20 shovel heads

Pretty sure there would be further reaching affects of killing all of the werewolves kin. (probably involving you getting executed by your superiors as a peace offering when all the wolves around get pissy)

SurlySeraph
2010-12-07, 01:49 PM
One of those Toreador gunslinger builds might actually work great for this. Tors obsessed with weird forms of art are always fun, and a Toreador taxidermist who's hell-bent on getting a werewolf mounted on his mantelpiece would be hilarious.

Plus even if he doesn't kill the wolf but only seriously wounds it, any werewolf that returns to its pack and has to explain that it lost to one of those prancing art-collector leeches can say goodbye to all respect he's ever had.

El Dorado
2010-12-07, 01:50 PM
Q: Who beats who in a fight, a vampire or a werewolf?
A: The Mage wins initiative and turns them both into lawn chairs.

Lamps actually. Had this happen in a game.

Warlawk
2010-12-07, 02:15 PM
There isn't really any point in even discussing old mage, as it wasn't about stats, it was about your ability to convince the ST to let you do things.


QFT and the reason I loathe the Old Mage system

QFT and the reason I loved the Old Mage system.

Different strokes for different folks. A game that specifically awards and virtually requires you to think outside the box to be powerful. The things you could pull off with high Arete, entropy 2 and a lot of creativity were amazing.

comicshorse
2010-12-07, 02:21 PM
QFT and the reason I loved the Old Mage system.

Different strokes for different folks. A game that specifically awards and virtually requires you to think outside the box to be powerful. The things you could pull off with high Arete, entropy 2 and a lot of creativity were amazing.


A game where you can do anything provided you're prepared to waste hours browbeating the G.M. into letting you get away with it. Where you never have to think as you can just know anything by blagging that your powers can tell you it/do it for you
IMHO

AND

Pretty sure there would be further reaching affects of killing all of the werewolves kin. (probably involving you getting executed by your superiors as a peace offering when all the wolves around get pissy)

Yeah I'd think this is going to get the whole Tribe pissed at you. Werewolves take their kinfolk VERY seriously

Mark Hall
2010-12-07, 02:27 PM
Yeah I'd think this is going to get the whole Tribe pissed at you. Werewolves take their kinfolk VERY seriously

Well, unless that Kinfolk ventures an opinion. Then, they pat them on the head and tell them to go breed more baby werewolves.

comicshorse
2010-12-07, 02:31 PM
Just 'cause you love the little things doesn't mean you have to listen to 'em:smallsmile:

Warlawk
2010-12-07, 03:37 PM
A game where you can do anything provided you're prepared to waste hours browbeating the G.M. into letting you get away with it. Where you never have to think as you can just know anything by blagging that your powers can tell you it/do it for you
IMHO


Sounds like you need a storyteller that doesn't suck to me. If you can "browbeat" your DM/Storyteller into anything, A) Shame on you, B) Get a storyteller/dm who isn't a doormat. The most powerful single word in oWoD Mage... "No".

Like I said, different strokes for different folks. You don't like it. Fine, that doesn't mean it's bad.

Semidi
2010-12-07, 04:37 PM
One of those Toreador gunslinger builds might actually work great for this. Tors obsessed with weird forms of art are always fun, and a Toreador taxidermist who's hell-bent on getting a werewolf mounted on his mantelpiece would be hilarious.

I love this idea. I will be stealing it for a future masquerade game (probably not a werewolf hunter persay, but a big game hunter with dreams of stuffed werewolf). Really, that's a great way to make a warriador concept work without being too out of place and silly.

Completely off topic but I just had to note my appreciation.

randomhero00
2010-12-07, 04:43 PM
Remember, vamps are supposed to be subtle. Brainwash someone else to do the dirty work for you.

Jerthanis
2010-12-07, 04:45 PM
Bonus points if you have rigged the heli with grenades.

With silver shrapnel.

I just sort of assumed boobytrapping the Helicopters would be so obvious, I didn't mention it... yeah.


Every one seems to be forgetting werewolves are pack creatures and vampires more or less hate each other. odds are if you go out hunting wolves you are gonna be on your own (because it's commonly considered suicide) and you are gonna be up against about what 5ish wolves. Basically if you just go out causally hunting you're dead dead. you might as well just go enjoy the sun rise.


I don't think anyone's suggesting anyone is going to hunt Werewolves, "Casually". I think that everyone talking about Werewolves effortless domination is in fact assuming that anyone involved is going to fight fair.

Dingle
2010-12-08, 02:35 AM
One of those Toreador gunslinger builds might actually work great for this. Tors obsessed with weird forms of art are always fun, and a Toreador taxidermist who's hell-bent on getting a werewolf mounted on his mantelpiece would be hilarious.

Well, werewolves take regular guns worse than a vamp with 3 fortitude.
werewolves can't blood buff or half bashing damage.

Silver'd be even more effective.

archon_huskie
2010-12-08, 03:06 AM
Well, werewolves take regular guns worse than a vamp with 3 fortitude.
werewolves can't blood buff or half bashing damage.

Silver'd be even more effective.

Also, do not forget that Werewolves need to breathe. A Tzmice with viscisitude could take out a furry just by holding their nose.

Also Garou need Blood. A team of Tremere with Caldron of Blood and A lot of Self-control can take out a Werewolf in two rounds.

Dingle
2010-12-08, 04:24 AM
Also, do not forget that Werewolves need to breathe. A Tzmice with viscisitude could take out a furry just by holding their nose.

That'd be one of the least effective ways to kill a werewolf.
1: they have mouths too
2: they get at least 5+2*sta turns to shred you with thier claws.
3: if you can incapacitate a werewolf long enough to do it, you could have killed them many times over. (7+ potence could hold down a werewolf, but you could have just killed them with one hit)

Kife
2010-12-08, 10:01 AM
Ahem... it really depends on your storyteller.

When I ran werewolf I encountered something similar when my werewolf players found out they were fighting a vampire. They immediately dismissed the threat. It pissed me off immensely. So when they finally got to the CEO's office they did not face something that shreds like bloody tissue paper. They faced something that automatically started with Potency 5, Celerity 5, Fortitude 5, and Protean 2. It was assisted by six delirium immune ghouls armed with full riot armor and fully automatic weapons with drum magazines. They won. But the real fun moment was when they checked in to their contact and learned the vampire that had ripped them a new one wasn't some jumped up ventrue elder but actually a neonate freshly converted by the big bad wyrm daddy of the city.

In short, I cheated to create fear and suspense in my players. When they fought a bane, they had to assess what it was they were fighting. For instance, a sadistika pain bane couldn't be killed through injuries. It could only be slain by application of Gaia's touch and willpower rolls. A formor might be just splatterfodder... or it might be something straight from Akira. They didn't know, and they loved it. The important thing is to not have a TPK the first time they're encountered.

Sir Swindle89
2010-12-08, 10:37 AM
In short, I cheated to create fear and suspense in my players.

Yes and assuming that your ST will cheat for you to make your character viable isn't exactly a bad assumption either. But we can't really discuss that from a mechanics point of view (or scarcely a logical point of view). Yes, if your ST thows wimpy nerfed half dead werewolves at you sin't really a satisfying answer.

Dingle
2010-12-08, 11:21 AM
They faced something that automatically started with Potency 5, Celerity 5, Fortitude 5, and Protean 2.

comparing crinos to disciplines:
+4 str -> 2 Potence
+1dex, rage -> 3(2-4 depending on rage) celerity
+3 sta -> at least 3 Fortitude (half bashing in exchange for not soaking all aggrivated is an ok trade in night to night life, unless you're in a game where everyone and thier grandmother does aggrivated damage(a fair chunk of owod games except vampire))
claws -> 2 protean (except that it takes a while to activate)
healing -> enough generation to get a good blood pool and spend 2-3 blood per turn (celerity, increase physicals, claws, heal in the same turn)

a few dots of other disciplines could be equivalent to gifts, and you have a vampire on par with a werewolf (and it only took a combat statted 8th generation).

Zeta Kai
2010-12-08, 12:05 PM
oWoD is a very lethal system, so I can't help assuming people are exaggerating when they say that just about any Werewolf could take any Vampire every time.

I remember in a Hunter game fighting 5 v 1 against a Werewolf and we basically killed it by pinning it to a wall with a truck long enough to take its head off (thank god for Martyrs). I don't really have any proof it was a by-the-book Werewolf style Werewolf, since the ST never discussed mechanics in any comprehensible way. ("Wait, this Mage bought bonus health levels? With Experience Points? How does that work? I don't remember that being possible... A pact with a Demon lets him do it? Huh?") but the key is that the environment, situation and setup does a lot to determine victory in addition to the traits listed on the character sheet.

Anyway, my point is always that these comparisons always list one Vampire with a sword, handgun, or claws versus one Werewolf in Crinos form in a street. Maybe that'd go ten for ten in the Werewolf's favor... but six Vampires in a pair of helicopters bearing miniguns full of silver bullets? That might be more even.

Also, if this Werewolf hunter character has low chances of success, and the rest of Vampire society reacts as such, he's got dozens of interesting motivations right off the bat. Interesting scenes of interaction with other, more experienced Vampires, accusations of risking the Masquerade fruitlessly, development of allies both toward killing Werewolves and advancing in society, a conflict involving fitting in when people have already written him off... and then startled awe, and not a little fear the first time he's successful. And if this guy winds up ash on the claws of a Werewolf and the rest of society rolls their eyes and says, "I told you so", then it's still a memorable character worth having played. This sounds like a great character, the more I think about it. I'm almost jealous now.

Your storyteller was being soft on you. Hunter was designed to allow humans to go up against some of the supernatural baddies in the WoD universe, but 5 hunters could not take an intelligently-run werewolf (from WW:tA), if they were all made by the book. That 'wolf woulda/coulda/shoulda shredded all of you in 1-2 turns & moved on before your bodies hit the floor. The only real way that this could have happened was if the ST willed to be so, which sounds like your ST's style. You said yourself that he played fast & loose with the rules, so don't be surprised that he threw you a victory that you simply could not have earned honestly.

Dingle
2010-12-08, 01:58 PM
werewolves aren't always intelligently run, the galliard in our pack has been incapacitated twice by 4 ghouls with good guns, and he was phys primary and had good brawl. (casually applying for a job in a vampire's house isn't a good idea, neither is jumping into thier car)

Sir Swindle89
2010-12-08, 02:58 PM
werewolves aren't always intelligently run, the galliard in our pack has been incapacitated twice by 4 ghouls with good guns, and he was phys primary and had good brawl. (casually applying for a job in a vampire's house isn't a good idea, neither is jumping into thier car)

All part of the plan i'm sure :smallsmile:

You see they'll incapacitate me and then once they are harvesting me for my quickly regenerating super delicious blood. I'll shred them all too pieces!!

Mark Hall
2010-12-08, 03:38 PM
Yes and assuming that your ST will cheat for you to make your character viable isn't exactly a bad assumption either. But we can't really discuss that from a mechanics point of view (or scarcely a logical point of view). Yes, if your ST thows wimpy nerfed half dead werewolves at you sin't really a satisfying answer.

Storytellers (and DMs) don't cheat... the rules do what they tell them to. ;-)

Jarveiyan
2010-12-08, 03:38 PM
Has everyone forgot about about the one high dot gift that gives werewolves immunity to silver and allows them to carry it themselves without any penalties? when I learned such a thing existed I wanted to give WW a piece of my mind(you don't take the only advantage away that allows you to level the playing field on a supernatural creature, unless you do it for all of them).

Lost Demiurge
2010-12-08, 03:48 PM
Remember, vamps are supposed to be subtle. Brainwash someone else to do the dirty work for you.

This. A thousand times this. Best way for a vamp to hunt werewolves is to build up influence and make their lives hell until they slip up. Vamps have an advantage when it comes to bending mortals to their will... Use cops to hound, harass, and arrest the weres, use city politicians to invoke eminent domain to build shopping malls over their places of power, get them listed as terrorists by Homeland Security, and don't just go after THEM, go after their kinfolk, friends, and contacts. Kill, harass, and mess them up. Stir, shake well, and sit back and watch the furry fireworks... Get them mad enough and stupid enough to the point where you can draw them into condemned buildings lined with explosives or a nice ambush spot where your veteran ghouls with sniper rifles and celerity can fill'em full of silver bullets.

Mind you, while you're doing all this, lay one hell of a false trail to one of your rivals, or some other supernatural entity that you want gone. And be prepared to evacuate REALLY FREAKING FAST if things go wrong.

Sure it might take a few years, but hey, you're immortal. When you've got a bad enough werewolf infestation that it's causing you to be distracted from screwing over the city's other vamps, what else are you going to do?

comicshorse
2010-12-08, 06:34 PM
Has everyone forgot about about the one high dot gift that gives werewolves immunity to silver and allows them to carry it themselves without any penalties? when I learned such a thing existed I wanted to give WW a piece of my mind(you don't take the only advantage away that allows you to level the playing field on a supernatural creature, unless you do it for all of them).


You sure about that ? I remember some Gifts gave some armour against silver, nothing that made them immune to it though

Kife
2010-12-09, 12:40 AM
Oh yeah... silver immunity was a seven point gift too.

Didn't help much against an Apache gunship infused with pattern spiders though.

"And THAT, @#$#@$#, is why we preserve the #[email protected]^$#@ veil!"

Jarveiyan
2010-12-09, 02:59 AM
Oh yeah... silver immunity was a seven point gift too.

Didn't help much against an Apache gunship infused with pattern spiders though.

"And THAT, @#$#@$#, is why we preserve the #[email protected]^$#@ veil!"

Yeah, I joined a game where we had 3 players - a mage, a werewolf, and a vampire. I was playing the vampire, and a friend of mine was playing the werewolf(when I first heard of this particular gift from a previous storyteller I knew that this friend would always use it, so take a guess as to which gift this werewolf had out of the gate just using core rules on character creation no extra xp to play around with.), and a newer friend was playing the "hippie" mage. I still think there should be no gifts to downgrade the effect silver has on a garou unless kindred and other supernatural creatures can get a option to downgrade their major weakness the same amount.

Lost Wanderer
2010-12-09, 03:30 AM
I like to think I'm pretty well versed in OWoD, and I must say, I have never encountered any Garou ability or power called Silver Immunity (except maybe as a Legend Stargazer gift, but a Legend Stargazer has earned it).

You seem to be conflating Silver Tolerance with Immunity to Wyrm Emanations. The latter is a 7-point Merit (as in costs 7 Freebies, not 7 XP) that makes someone basically immune to Wyrm taint and any drawbacks of or damage from being exposed to it. Stuff like the corrupting touch of Banes, being in blighted areas, Balefire, radioactivity...

The former is a 5-point Merit that does two things: it allows a Garou to use their Stamina to soak damage from silver weapons (it's still Aggravated, though) and halves the penalty for attuning silver objects. Remember, every attuned silver object (live say, a klaive) locks up a temporary Gnosis box. Honestly, its probably underpowered for its cost (compare, say, Unbondable, the more expensive version of Iron Will, or Self Confident).



I still think there should be no gifts to downgrade the effect silver has on a garou unless kindred and other supernatural creatures can get a option to downgrade their major weakness the same amount.
What, you mean like Fortitude (soak everything!) or Cult and Sanctum (my magic is always coincidental with these people around/in this place!)? Or the aforementioned ones that anyone can get, Unbondable and the more expensive version of Iron Will? Immunity to Blood Bond and other forms of long term spiritual and mental entrapment for the former, flat out immunity to mind control of any kind in the latter. And then then there's the list of things you can do with Thaumaturgy, let alone true Sphere magic. Vampires and especially mages have plenty of ways to shore up their weaknesses.

Dingle
2010-12-09, 05:44 AM
There are a few high ranking gifts:
Luna's blessing, ragabash rk4 - changes to lethal, only when moon is visible
Luna's armour, Child of Gaia or shadow lord rk2 - bonus soak, which can soak silver (like fortitude)
Luna's avenger, silver fang Rk5 - complete immunity

Jarveiyan
2010-12-09, 09:48 PM
I like to think I'm pretty well versed in OWoD, and I must say, I have never encountered any Garou ability or power called Silver Immunity (except maybe as a Legend Stargazer gift, but a Legend Stargazer has earned it).

You seem to be conflating Silver Tolerance with Immunity to Wyrm Emanations. The latter is a 7-point Merit (as in costs 7 Freebies, not 7 XP) that makes someone basically immune to Wyrm taint and any drawbacks of or damage from being exposed to it. Stuff like the corrupting touch of Banes, being in blighted areas, Balefire, radioactivity...
I've never set eyes on the gift, however I have heard it talked about and might have had to face off against a silver packing garou. The friend playing such garou is like me in that he doesn't take long to learn the rules of a system, however he powerplays more than I do.


The former is a 5-point Merit that does two things: it allows a Garou to use their Stamina to soak damage from silver weapons (it's still Aggravated, though) and halves the penalty for attuning silver objects. Remember, every attuned silver object (live say, a klaive) locks up a temporary Gnosis box. Honestly, its probably underpowered for its cost (compare, say, Unbondable, the more expensive version of Iron Will, or Self Confident).


What, you mean like Fortitude (soak everything!) or Cult and Sanctum (my magic is always coincidental with these people around/in this place!)? Or the aforementioned ones that anyone can get, Unbondable and the more expensive version of Iron Will? Immunity to Blood Bond and other forms of long term spiritual and mental entrapment for the former, flat out immunity to mind control of any kind in the latter. And then then there's the list of things you can do with Thaumaturgy, let alone true Sphere magic. Vampires and especially mages have plenty of ways to shore up their weaknesses.
I know about unbondable, however what does that mean when dealing with other supernaturals that aren't kindred? And as for Iron Will, if I have come across it I didn't think much about it. I do not play Tremere, I have a professional hate for them. I usually play combat characters of some kind. Fortitude at 5 dots or below won't help much when you have a crinos psycho bearing down on you, of which every point of his claw damage is aggravated. You have to roll to soak aggravated with fortitude, which means you could get less on that soaking.