Help With Celerity

[HMS Invincible]

What's the best way to get around the dazing part? I'm pretty sure there's a magic item out there somewhere...
Also, My DM said that celerity in D&D isn't as good compared to the other rpg worlds (masquerade, shadowrun), and I want him to appreciate the spell for what it can do. Ideas? I can cast celerity once since I'm only 7th level wizard.

[Reynard]

Timestop, IIRC. So you're stunned for a little bit, who cares? You've got free rounds to play with, screwing with everyone.

[Incanur]

Getting around the daze effect typically leads to bad things like comboing the spell with arcane fusion and greater arcane fusion to nova like there's no tomorrow. As a DM I would :smallannoyed: on such behavior. The spell is ridiculous enough without added cheese. If nothing else, it allows you to flee at will or finish the combat a round early.

[olentu]

You could grab that one dragonmark that makes you immune to dazing. Mark of the dauntless or something like that.

[Alleran]

You could grab that one dragonmark that makes you immune to dazing. Mark of the dauntless or something like that.
IIRC, there's also a Dragonmark feat (Star-something, or Something-Star... I can't quite recall) that makes you immune to being flat-footed for additional benefits when casting Celerity, if we're maxing out Dragonmark stuff.

Also, a Google search turned this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52836) up.

[Crow]

Don't forget to run Foresight so you're never flat-footed and can do Celerity *any* time!

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The simplest, earliest way to do it that *doesn't* rely on blatantly setting-specific material is Quick Recovery from Lords of Madness. It lets you roll a will save at the beginning of your turn to get rid of daze or stun effects, which includes the daze from Celerity. With a small amount of effort you can pass your Celerity daze save on a 2. The downside is the 1/20 chance of it not working (without additional save-tweaking, anyway), and the fact that you are still dazed from the time you celerity to the beginning of your turn. This is why it's good to celerity right before your turn in this setup.

Edit: I should note that negating the daze effect changes Celerity from a powerful, useful, but ultimately situational spell, into an overpowered supernova machine. Don't use any of these combos unless everyone's expecting this level of gouda. Perhaps you could simply build a sample character that breaks the action economy, show your DM that, and then not prepare Celerity at all? It only really comes into its own when you have other big bad spells to use it with, anyway, and Polymorph is both easier to break and much more directly useful to your party at this level. And EBT. I love EBT.

[HMS Invincible]

I don't want to break the game, I just wanted to point out that being dazed as a penalty for casting celerity doesn't make it a mediocre spell. Also, I don't think he allows Eberron. I read the other thread, it got into a big argument with freedom of movement or the 3rd eye clarity item.
The third eye thing sounds nice, but doesn't it not play well since I already spent my immediate actions?
Also having a move action available through freedom of movement seems ok. Who won that argument?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I don't want to break the game, I just wanted to point out that being dazed as a penalty for casting celerity doesn't make it a mediocre spell. Also, I don't think he allows Eberron. I read the other thread, it got into a big argument with freedom of movement or the 3rd eye clarity item.
The third eye thing sounds nice, but doesn't it not play well since I already spent my immediate actions?
Also having a move action available through freedom of movement seems ok. Who won that argument?Your DM will win that argument when he rules that no, FoM doesn't work that way... Unless your DM wants every character to spend 40K on a Ring of Immune to Everything.

If you want to prove that daze isn't that bad of a penalty for getting to act *now*, how about using Celerity as intended in a useful way instead of just negating the penalty? I don't mean to judge how you game; just making suggestions.

[Koury]

I'm away from my books, but I'm 94% sure there is a feat in Lords of Madness that is relevent here.

Sorry, but thats all I recall at the moment. :smallbiggrin:

[Bakkan]

A little trick I found (come to think of it, I don't think I've posted this before) works with absolutely no rules shenanigans or setting material, but requires a cleric ally willing to spend an immediate or standard action to help you out.

First, have a 3rd-level (minimum) cleric ally with Healing Lorecall (Spell Compendium page 110). This handy 2nd level Persistable (Yay Divine Metamagic!) spell buffs your cleric's caster level for healing spells and allows them to cure certain conditions whenever they cast a conjuration(healing) spell. You guessed it: dazed is on the list.

Now your cleric ally may have this persisted, but it's a 10 min/level buff, so even a simple extend will get you most of the adventuring day. When you cast Celerity, you become dazed. You ally can hit you with a Cure Minor Wounds (or a better version if you happen to have gotten hit somehow) and remove the dazed condition. This works if you cast Celerity before the cleric's turn. This uses the cleric's standard action unless he is able to quicken his spell (Yay DMM again?) and requires him to be adjacent to you, which may or may not be a good idea.

The other option, which is likely possible only at higher levels, is for the cleric to have prepared Close Wounds (Spell Compendium page 48) which is a nice little Close range (not touch!) level 2 healing spell that casts as an immediate action. This has the benefit of the cleric being able to help you out whenever you need it, but he will need to prepare it since he can't spontaneously cast it.

A Favored Soul could be a good alternative to the cleric. They don't get turn attempts to fuel DMM, but they do cast spontaneously, so if you happen to take out all the baddies with your Celeritied action, he hasn't wasted a spell slot.

A final, cheesy option (which may or may not fly, depending on your DM) is to have your cleric friend take the Craft Contingent Spell feat (Complete Arcane page 77) to cast Cure Minor Wounds on you if you start your turn dazed. I don't know if a casting buff like Healing Lorecall can affect Contingent spells, but if they can, this would give you a free cure without even using up your cleric's immediate action. Alternatively, you may be able to hire an NPC cleric to help out.

[Silva Stormrage]

Not sure what book but the Fire Souled Template gives immunity to daze for + 1 Level Adjustment. Its on Crystal Keep too.

It also gives so pretty good bonuses. +4 charisma won't help much since your a wizard though. It also gives leadership as a bonus feat and gives you a cool ability to "Short Circuit" other people's charisma based abilities with a touch attack. Also gives an Aura that gives allies bonus to attacks and skill checks and also a bonus on saves against fear.

If your DM allows level adjustment buy off you can get the template and then immediately buy it off for only 3000 xp. The template just says to acquire it you need to go through a "Ritual that Fills it with Zeal". Since I don't know what book its from I don't know anything else about the ritual.

[olentu]

Not sure what book but the Fire Souled Template gives immunity to daze for + 1 Level Adjustment. Its on Crystal Keep too.

It also gives so pretty good bonuses. +4 charisma won't help much since your a wizard though. It also gives leadership as a bonus feat and gives you a cool ability to "Short Circuit" other people's charisma based abilities with a touch attack. Also gives an Aura that gives allies bonus to attacks and skill checks and also a bonus on saves against fear.

If your DM allows level adjustment buy off you can get the template and then immediately buy it off for only 3000 xp. The template just says to acquire it you need to go through a "Ritual that Fills it with Zeal". Since I don't know what book its from I don't know anything else about the ritual.

That would be dragon 314 where I have found it. However the level adjustment is actually +3 it would seem. Presumably someone got that mixed up with the CR +1 when copying and used the CR adjustment for both.

[HMS Invincible]

If celerity is mainly used for casting a spell immediately for any reason, therefore, I should only grab celerity, and skip lesser and greater celerity? Is that a good idea?

[Gabe the Bard]

That depends on whether there's more stuff you can do with your move action. If you're a sublime chord with Harmonize or Greater Harmonize, you can sing bard songs as a move action. So with greater celerity, you can cast a spell and use bardic music with an immediate action. But as an 8th level spell, it's still pretty steep.

The problem with getting around the daze effect is that if you can do it, then so can an NPC. With Celerity, Greater Arcane Fusion, and daze immunity, you enter a loop where you can keep casting spells until you run out of spells to cast, as Incanur mentioned. Now imagine if the BBEG could do that during an encounter. :smalleek:

RAW, you could also get around it at least once in an encounter using Contingency and Heal (get Arcane Disciple: Healing or UMD it from a scroll). But our DM just ruled that the daze effect of Celerity can't be healed like a regular daze effect, for the reasons mentioned above.

[Incanur]

But our DM just ruled that the daze effect of Celerity can't be healed like a regular daze effect, for the reasons mentioned above.

I believe I ruled the same thing when a player talked about this combo. This actually matches the flavor of the spell. You can't act on the next turn because you used that time for the extra action granted by celerity.A mere heal shouldn't allow to you escape the bargain you made with the universe. :smallsmile:

[Gabe the Bard]

Exactly. RAI, The daze effect from Celerity comes from pulling in time from the future, so it really is different from being dazed by a debilitating spell or effect.

[Bakkan]

To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, if the daze effect were intended to be unavoidable, wouldn't it have been easier and clearer to write "after performing this action, you may take no actions until the end of your next turn"? Or why not include a clause that stated that "this daze cannot be cured or obviated by any means, even wish or immunity to daze", for instance?

The fact that the spell includes as a downside a specific condition that was curable when the spell was written suggests that it is intended that the downside be avoidable with effort.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I suppose not allowing a fusion loop is a "plus" of Quick Recovery.

[Baldin]

eey,

I think it would be way to overpowered if u managed to not be dazed by celerety, our wizard is a battlefield controller and due to this spell he can shut down most part of our enemies.

If used to cast a fireball or something then yes it aint good but things like stinking cloud or wall of sand or even a grease can do wonders if u can do it fast.

cheers
baldin

[Gabe the Bard]

To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, if the daze effect were intended to be unavoidable, wouldn't it have been easier and clearer to write "after performing this action, you may take no actions until the end of your next turn"? Or why not include a clause that stated that "this daze cannot be cured or obviated by any means, even wish or immunity to daze", for instance?

The fact that the spell includes as a downside a specific condition that was curable when the spell was written suggests that it is intended that the downside be avoidable with effort.

The person who wrote the spell may not have had all of those things in mind, especially stuff that came from supplements, such as Healing Lorecall which was mentioned earlier. There really aren't a lot of ways to cure daze, or stun for that matter, compared to conditions like charm or paralysis.

[Incanur]

I seriously doubt they intended the core dump of spells greater arcane fusion makes possible with celerity and a way to avoid daze. Even if they thought sorcerers needed a boost, that's going too far. :smallsmile:

[FMArthur]

It's just a more expensive Synchronicity, really. It's powerful but I don't see the big deal about dazeless Celerity when you put in all the resources to make it happen.

[Bakkan]

The person who wrote the spell may not have had all of those things in mind, especially stuff that came from supplements, such as Healing Lorecall which was mentioned earlier. There really aren't a lot of ways to cure daze, or stun for that matter, compared to conditions like charm or paralysis.

I feel we must assume the writers of PH2 were familiar with Core, and specifically the spell Heal, which cures the dazed condition. The fact that the writers did not specify that Celerity's dazed condition cannot be cured by Heal means that either they were very negligent in their examination of the spell's interaction with Core spells or they intended for Heal to be able to cure the condition. If the first case, then it is difficult to determine RAI anyhow, and in the second, they intended for the condition to be sometimes avoided or alleviated. In this case, where can we draw the line between which spells or combinations of spells did the writer(s) intend to help and which did he not?

[ericgrau]

The fact that the spell includes as a downside a specific condition that was curable when the spell was written suggests that it is intended that the downside be avoidable with effort.

I believe many authors put more thought in their spells than most naysayers give them credit for. But to think that there cannot be any spells with oversights, especially once optimizers search through hundreds, that's giving them too much credit.

[Myth]

A paladin spell Favored of the Martyr makes you immune. You can replicate it via Limited Wish. I can't locate it though, anyone know in which book it resides?

[Incanur]

A paladin spell Favored of the Martyr makes you immune. You can replicate it via Limited Wish. I can't locate it though, anyone know in which book it resides?

Spell Compendium.

[FMArthur]

It's only fourth level; you should be able to use it with a wand instead of Limited Wishing it.

[Myth]

Limited Wish is for a Contingency/Crafted Contingency, the duration is too short to warrant usage in combat. You have to cast it before celerity for it to be effective so...

[Incanur]

Limited Wish is for a Contingency/Crafted Contingency, the duration is too short to warrant usage in combat. You have to cast it before celerity for it to be effective so...

So just win initiative, cast it, cast celerity, cast greater arcane fusion, and go to town. Be sure to save a rope trick or whatever to rest later on. :smallsmile:

[HMS Invincible]

So just win initiative, cast it, cast celerity, cast greater arcane fusion, and go to town. Be sure to save a rope trick or whatever to rest later on. :smallsmile:

Bingo. The lord of madness feat sounds good too. Btw, arcane fusion stipulates sorcerer only.