Breaking the Game (An Exercise in Balance)

[Aelric]

Like many groups, my gaming group had lots of discussions when 4e was released. Those discussions revolved around things like customization, flexibility and just general 'fun-ness'. Someone new is stepping up to DM though, and the discussion has started up again, except this time it's about game balance. Without getting into the balance (or lack therof) of 4e, my group is insisting that 3.5 'Core', just the three core books, and specifically the Pathfinder 'fixes', are balanced and lack 'broken' spell combination and builds.
That being the case, I'd like to prove them wrong. Despite much research, most of my examples use non-core books, or were dealt with when polymorph effects got nerfed in pathfinder.

This brings us to the challenge:
Using only the Players Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual, what is your most 'game-breaking' 3.5 build or spell combo?
Alternatively for those of you with access to the Pathfinder core book: What is your most 'game-breaking' Pathfinder build using only the core book and advanced player guide?

Note: This is a thought-exercise ONLY. This poster does not in any way endorse or approve the use of game-breaking in actual campaigns. Remember people, every time you make the DM cry, somewhere a kitten dies.

[FelixG]

A) what level are we talking about? straight level 5? 10? 15? 20? ect

B) catgirls die in relation to DnD not kittens :smallbiggrin:

[Aelric]

Let's assume levels 12-15. High enough for level 6 or 7 spells, but not high enough for the obvious stuff like time stop, wish, miracle, gate, etc.

[Eldan]

One of the easiest spells to break is Planar Binding. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm)

It can call you an Effreet. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) You will notice that it can grant up to three wishes per day. This wish can create magical items. One nice item is the Candle of Invocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation), which can cast gate. Which can give you outsiders to cast more spells for you. Among them, wish.

Then there is the simple fact that the wizard can create raw materials from nothing. Which he can sell for money.

[LordBlades]

This brings us to the challenge:
Using only the Players Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual, what is your most 'game-breaking' 3.5 build or spell combo?

Note: This is a thought-exercise ONLY. This poster does not in any way endorse or approve the use of game-breaking in actual campaigns. Remember people, every time you make the DM cry, somewhere a kitten dies.

Candle of invocation for infinite wish loops.
Planar binding for infinite wish loops.
Planar binding for anything else.
Contact other Plane abuse.
Generating infinite WBL with a large variety of permanent conjuration spells.
Simulacrum.
Scry&die tactics.
Dust of sneezing and choking.

That's about all that comes to mind quickly.
also, you might want to challenge him to build a non-caster melee that can melee at least at the same level with a buffed Druid or Cleric.

[Tvtyrant]

Wizard using Polymorph into Aboleths or multi-headed hydras and become better then the Fighter at his job (a lot better in fact). Shapechange. Alter Self (not as bad, but still vicious). Scry and Die (now you don't need dungeons!), Leadership, Diplomancer Bards.

[Eldan]

If you want to make the fighter cry, just start as a druid, wildshape into a bear (possible at early levels). You are now, most likely, already better at grappling than the fighter. Now just start stacking every buff you have. Bark skin, [Animals]'s [Attribute]...

Edit: ah, yes. Diplomacy checks. Read the Diplomacy rules: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm) A DC 50 check makes hostile people helpful. DC 25 makes them indifferent.
Now read this:

If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.

That's a free +6 bonus you can have at level 2. Along with 5 ranks, and 18 charisma. That's +15. You make everyone, no matter how hostile, neutral in a single check with a 50-50 chance.

[weenie]

Red wizards are pretty broken, and you can find them in the DMG. A maximized disintegrate Hightened to lvl17 and cast at cl 40 hurts a lot.

[Amiel]

Well, I tend to find that optimisation to the point where the game breaks is mostly a reality insofar within a theoretical thought exercise. On a more practical level, when the game is put into session within, say, a campaign, the core rules don't seem to be imbalanced as most make it out to be.


I believe Pun-Pun is achievable as a 1st level Paladin?

[LordBlades]

Well, I tend to find that optimisation to the point where the game breaks is mostly a reality insofar within a theoretical thought exercise. On a more practical level, when the game is put into session within, say, a campaign, the core rules don't seem to be imbalanced as most make it out to be.


I believe Pun-Pun is achievable as a 1st level Paladin?

Pun pun is achievable with non-core material( no Manipulate form, no Pun pun).

Also, core is pretty broken IMHO, mainly because casters still have a lot of goodies (PHB has an impressive amount of good spells, probably tied with spell compedium for highest percentage of the powerful spells in the game) while melee has next to none (most of the stuff that makes melee classes acceptable comes from non-core: leap attack, shock trooper, combat brute, karmic strike, robilar's gambit etc).

[Amiel]

Yes, I agree that on paper casters have (or seem to have) a massive advantage over all.

Take rope trick, it's essentially an extradimensional hidey-hole. The caster within gets to replenish his spells in safety and comfort. And possibly also in style. Rope trick seems to be one of the best and easiest ways for spell regeneration.
However, the caster still needs to rest for that allotted 8 hours and due to its low level, the spell can also be counteracted and dispelled, relatively easily.

[Signmaker]

Using Magic Jar tricks, I recall Jake being able to A. Steal the body of a Balor, permanently, B. Steal the body of a Golem after stealing the Balor's body, and C. Hiding the Balor body inside the golem via portable hole and a bit of super glue.

Long story short, you were fighting a golem such that if you broke the gem or released the spell, out popped a Balor raring to go. Oh, and he's still got Wizard casting the whole way through.

[Amiel]

Pun pun is achievable with non-core material( no Manipulate form, no Pun pun).

There's always Pazuzu :smallwink::smalltongue:

[Warlawk]

If you want to make the fighter cry, just start as a druid, wildshape into a bear (possible at early levels). You are now, most likely, already better at grappling than the fighter. Now just start stacking every buff you have. Bark skin, [Animals]'s [Attribute]...

Edit: ah, yes. Diplomacy checks. Read the Diplomacy rules: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm) A DC 50 check makes hostile people helpful. DC 25 makes them indifferent.
Now read this:

That's a free +6 bonus you can have at level 2. Along with 5 ranks, and 18 charisma. That's +15. You make everyone, no matter how hostile, neutral in a single check with a 50-50 chance.


Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a -10 penalty on the check.

Gotta keep in mind that in many situations creatures that are hostile are going to skip straight to combat and not grant you the time needed for a full check. That means stacking on the penalty and that really hurts your chances. Builds like that become more potent with non-core sources to really stack on the bonuses. Not saying it won't work, just that it's much more difficult.

[true_shinken]

There's always Pazuzu :smallwink::smalltongue:

non-core as well. :smallsigh: