My groups angry with Dread Necromancers what do you think? [Archive]

Arkeht

2010-12-06, 06:10 AM

TheMeMan

2010-12-06, 06:21 AM

Now, I don't know the full of Dread Necro, nor what "Nightmare Spinner" refers to, but you have:

A tier 4(Rogue)
A tier 5(Fighter)
And a tier 6(Truenamer) mixed in with two tier 1s.
The Dread Necro apparently is Tier 3.

So, I can see why the Rogue, Fighter, and especially Truenamer would think it's overpowered. But the Wizzy and Cleric? Bah-wuh?

Starbuck_II

2010-12-06, 06:22 AM

I am currently running a 3.5 campaign and one of my players is a Dread Necromancy. Recently the other players in my campaign have been complaining that he is overpowered. I don't feel this to be true but I would like some outside opinions on the matter.

The Classes are:

Cleric
Dread Necromancer
Fighter
Truenamer
Rogue
Wizard/Nightmare spinner

There is limited book selection for the purpose of feats and spells: The Truenamer, and Dread Necromancer can only use the books they came out of respectfully, and the players handbook. The other classes use the players handbook but can select a few things outside of the players handbook if it makes sense with their character.
Everyone is limited to one prestige class total, and can use the book they select their prestige class from.

Well, you did give Dread Necro is hard to fail at. They are spontaneous/know whole list.
The Truenamer is a truenamer.
The Fighter is a fighter: they usually are weaker than magic sometimes.
Rogues depend a lot of built method.

Now the Wiz and Cleric shouldn't be weaker. The wizard can know all the Dreads spells.

Is it the Damage Reduction: a small amount, helps mostly at low levels.

Arkeht

2010-12-06, 06:25 AM

Eldan

2010-12-06, 06:27 AM

Just explain to them that both the Wizard and the Cleric can do whatever the Dread Necro can, and most likely better? I mean, they have the same spells, and many more.

FelixG

2010-12-06, 06:28 AM

The true namer and fighter stand out as the big issued to me, they can be pretty much outdone by everyone else in the party.

The reason a Cleric and Wizard would find a DN overpowered is beyond me, they can do all the DN can and better until he starts to churn out his bonus levels of undead and gets a few nightsticks, then he can have some beefy meat shields for himself.

the only reason I could see the rogue being upset is if he is using undead to run forward and take traps for the party thus stealing one of the rogues areas to shine.

Not sure what advice to give you for fixing the situation, maybe try to find a true namer fix in the homebrew section to let the true namer use and...for thefighter maybe let him use a Pathfinder fighter? they are a bit better than standard 3.5 and are open source http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter

Edit: Wow I was way off in my guesses 0.o

I am even more baffled, have the Cleric and Wizard NEVER played their perspective classes before?

Arkeht

2010-12-06, 06:29 AM

Well the wizard doesn't have access to the hero of horrors book I left that to the Dread Necromancer that so that his spells would be more unique and I think Wizards generally have enough power with the spells in the Player handbook without adding more and more options. However he does have all the Complete Mage spells due to taking the Nightmare spinner prestige class.

Yora

2010-12-06, 06:31 AM

What level do the characters have?

I think the class really isn't the problem here. Apparently the other players just don't know the game that well. Even if he played a different class, he'd probably still outshine them.

I'm usually strongly opposed to making better characters for players who don't understand how that character works, but it might be a good idea to find a way to improve the wizard and cleric by helping them to find a better selection of spells.
In a low optimization game, rogues and fighters are usually not much of a problem, but from all I've seen Truenamer is pretty much hopeless. It's generally considered the worst class ever to appear in any official D&D book.

Zeta Kai

2010-12-06, 06:32 AM

The cleric seems to have the biggest problem with the class followed by the wizard. The rogue also thinks its OP, but is less vocal on the matter. The Truenamer doesn't have a problem with it nor the fighter.

Then it's the personalities behind the character sheets, & not any objective issue. When the two weakest classes at the table have no problem with the PC in the middle, then there's no real problem. I would suspect that the Wizard has a weak spell selection, & the Cleric doesn't know how to use his class effectively to outperform the DN, while the Necro is using his abilities better, but that's just a guess. Without more info on the people themselves, it's impossible to say.

Arkeht

2010-12-06, 06:37 AM

Then it's the personalities behind the character sheets, & not any objective issue. When the two weakest classes at the table have no problem with the PC in the middle, then there's no real problem. I would suspect that the Wizard has a weak spell selection, & the Cleric doesn't know how to use his class effectively to outperform the DN, while the Necro is using his abilities better, but that's just a guess. Without more info on the people themselves, it's impossible to say.

This was my thought as well, I just needed some outside opinions just to be sure.

Partysan

2010-12-06, 06:38 AM

Wizards and Clerics are far more powerful and versatile than Dread Necromancers. However, while DNs aren't very difficult to play, Wizards and Fighters are easy to screw up. Fighters and especially Truenamers are very weak classes, Rogues are ok but maybe al little weaker than a DN. Wizard and Cleric are two of the most powerful classes in the game.
I think part of the problem is really that a Wizard who chooses weak spells and a Fighter who chooses weak feats (and even one who chooses good ones) and just about any Truenamer anyway can be very weak. The Dread Necromancer is considered a very well balanced class. However since it has a fixed spell list and some built in survival options it doesn't require much skill to function well and thus may appear powerful in comparison if the other players have made rather weak choices with their characters.
Fighters and Truenamers are weak classes, especially Truenamers are just borked and don't work at all. I don't know how the Cleric and Wizard can feel overshadowed though, other than that they just aren't playing their characters well (mechanically I mean).
My advice is to point out some strong spells to the Wizard and Cleric and give the Rogue and Fighter some situations geared to their particular strengths so they can shine.
For the Truenamer I'd advise to use one of the fixes lying around here of at least changing the formula for truespeak DCs, e.g. by taking out the "2*" in front of the target's CR, and maybe sonsider doing away with the law of resistence, sequence of both. There's some thread with good play analysis of a Truenamer on the boards here, I'm sure a nice person will link to it.

Arkeht

2010-12-06, 06:47 AM

What level do the characters have?

They are level 8 at the moment

For the Truenamer I'd advise to use one of the fixes lying around here of at least changing the formula for truespeak DCs, e.g. by taking out the "2*" in front of the target's CR, and maybe sonsider doing away with the law of resistence, sequence of both.

We actually took a few steps to fix it when we were discussion the class since he was already aware of the drawbacks, he just really liked the flavor of the class. He also doesn't feel outdone in slightest.

Thank you all for the advice.

The Glyphstone

2010-12-06, 07:13 AM

Maybe the Wiz/Cleric just want to be the undisputed gods of the party, and don't like having a competent player with a solid class stealing their thunder?

We'd need to know more about typical party tactics to really solidify the issue, but it does sound like a personality conflict.

Ryuuk

2010-12-06, 08:00 AM

What is the Dread Necro doing? If, for example, his turn consists of him moving a small horde of Undead, I could see where they're coming from.

Besides, we at the forum know the cleric/wizard's potential, but for someone just starting out the Dread Necro can seem overpowered. A large spontaneous list with plenty of spells per day and actual class features vs only the spells you prepare for the day, fewer per day, and no additional class features.

Forget about what we know about the Wiz/Cleric/Dread Necro for a minute and look at each class's progression side by side. Two of them look rather empty don't they? Unless you realize the theoretical boon that is prepared casting from a larger list (and only potentially larger for the wizard), yeah, you're going to feel underpowered.

EDIT: Besides, with limited books, they only have the cheese in core available to them. Even then, unless you know which spells are powerful and pick only those spells (lets admit it, most of these aren't apparent if you just browse the spell list), you're not going to do much (at least compare to the array of decent options available to the Dread Necro at all times)

Callista

2010-12-06, 08:06 AM

Looks like you've got a player who's a decent optimizer dumped in with a bunch of people who kind of suck at optimizing their characters. I don't think your problem here is the basic power level of the characters (except for that Truenamer, possibly); it's that you've got one player who is good at building a PC and others who aren't.

Could you, if you didn't go easy on them, TPK the party minus the Necro with a fair and level-appropriate encounter? If so, they're having problems with building and playing strong characters, and it's got very little to do with tiers. The tier system is useful, yeah; but it assumes that the player is good at building characters. This group isn't--the tier system doesn't come into play nearly as much in an average or below-average group.

Talk to the guy playing the necromancer; see if you can get him to help the other players optimize better, or alternatively have his character start buffing/supporting theirs so that their poor optimization matters less. Go ahead and flatter him a little--"You're better at building characters; but that's making it hard for me because I have to create encounters that are dangerous for them in order to challenge you." (This is the basic problem with uneven power levels from a DM's perspective, yes?)

This is an opportunity, if you play it right--you as a DM can do more with characters who are being optimized properly and played well. In the end, your goal should be to get the others playing as well as the guy playing the necromancer and hopefully cooperating better. Don't try to weaken the necro unless he's using some seriously cheesy strategies; it might seem like the obvious solution, but strengthening the other PCs is a lot better in the long run.

GoatBoy

2010-12-06, 08:08 AM

A friend of mine once ran a Dread Necro in a game run by a relatively new DM, and had taken Tomb-Tainted Soul. The DM thought it was too powerful and told him he could only use Charnal Touch 3+Int times per day now. Yes, Int. So my friend, being nerfed beyond belief by that one move, changed classes. To a core-only spiked chain trip Fighter. And the DM STILL thought it was too powerful. Mercifully for my friend, the game dried up soon after.

The 1 feat resulting in unlimited healing can put people off when they are unused to how easy healing can be with a little research. I also know how frustrating it is to play a Cleric in an inexperienced group, since you're going to be healing just about every round. So maybe the Cleric is jealous that the DN can do stuff, plus take turns for their undead minions as well. On a somewhat related note, how many undead does the DN normally have up and running on average? Some players get mad when one player's turn takes much longer than their own, and might just be crying "OP" because of that.

I suggest telling your Cleric about Wands of Lesser Vigor, and your Wizard about Cloud of Whatever and Glitterdust.

Lans

2010-12-06, 09:53 AM

The truenamer is advantaged by the dread necro bringing low CR brutes that he can more easily buff.

Psyren

2010-12-06, 09:55 AM

Tell your Truenamer friend to use Kyeudo's excellent fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176665) from these boards, available as a convenient PDF download. That will help him keep up with everyone else.

Lord.Sorasen

2010-12-06, 12:48 PM

It still shocks me to hear that people take the Dread Necro as PCs. Not that there's anything wrong with the class, but as everyone here has mentioned, the cleric does it so much better (does the wizard as well? I was unaware).

But like everyone else has stated, if it's your wizard and cleric complaining, it's no problem... But if it's a big issue... Don't nerf the Dread Necromancer. Don't buff the Cleric or wizard. If the issue could be solved by making one class stronger, there wouldn't be an argument in the first place.

Food for thought: Perhaps the others could have more of a chance to shine if you included challenges more suited to their strengths. Enemies with "turn undead" or the like can go a long way in making people utilize teamwork. (I know turn undead is generally limited to good characters, but you have a DN in your team so I figure why would the reverse not also be true?)

Wait, one last thing. What are the character's races? I know that's normally not too important but it could make all the difference. (I am now imagining it's a wild orc wizard [+6 strength, -4 int, -2 wis, -4 cha] :P That would be awesome, actually. Making new character now.)

Starbuck_II

2010-12-06, 12:51 PM

Talk to the guy playing the necromancer; see if you can get him to help the other players optimize better, or alternatively have his character start buffing/supporting theirs so that their poor optimization matters less. Go ahead and flatter him a little--"You're better at building characters; but that's making it hard for me because I have to create encounters that are dangerous for them in order to challenge you." (This is the basic problem with uneven power levels from a DM's perspective, yes?)

They don't have any buffs for others. They can debuff, buff self (False life), save or suck, but they lack other buffing.

Greenish

2010-12-06, 12:52 PM

It still shocks me to hear that people take the Dread Necro as PCs. Not that there's anything wrong with the class, but as everyone here has mentioned, the cleric does it so much better (does the wizard as well? I was unaware).That wizards and clerics do everything better is a good reason to play a DN, IMO. :smallwink:

Anyhow, wizards and clerics live and die by their spell selection, so if the players are unfamiliar with the spell lists, dread necromancer appears stronger, and indeed, is stronger (due to giving less opportunities to make bad choices, and by the virtue of being a rather intuitive to play).

Incanur

2010-12-06, 12:58 PM

The absurd numbers of undead dread necromancers can control can become a problem. (This applies to clerics and wizards to a lesser extent.) Undead armies are cool but other players sometimes become understandably resentful of lost time in the spotlight. Powerful skeletons dramatically change the dynamics of melee combat; if you optimizes (firbolg giants with good weapons and armor, for example) they might be better straight-up combatants than the party's bruisers.

Drogorn

2010-12-06, 01:12 PM

If this guy is making a horde of undead, one thing he can do is tell groups of his undead to obey other players, then you have those undead move on the other players' turns. That way he doesn't take forever to take his turn.

This, of course, doesn't appear to be the primary issue, but I thought I'd mention it.

Gensh

2010-12-06, 01:18 PM

What I want to know is why the cleric has problems with the DN. I mean, I still remember cracking open my Player's Handbook the first time, seeing cleric and druid, and saying "You're kidding, right? There's no way they're that good." Then I saw toughness.

Incanur

2010-12-06, 01:22 PM

An 8th level dread necromancer with decent Cha can control 5 athach skeletons, each with +15 to hit, five attacks, and about 150 hp. An 8th-level fighter would be lucky to have 100 hp and a much higher attack bonus. This wall of bones strategy changes the game in ways some players won't like.

Beyond that, though, I don't see anything wrong with the dread necromancer.

HunterOfJello

2010-12-06, 01:33 PM

Wizard and Cleric having a problem with a Dread Necromancer?

Theories:
1. Necro is stealing thunder from the gods (Wiz and Cleric)
2. Necro is an out-of-the-box type and the Wiz and Cleric don't know **** about their own classes
3. Necromancer keeps killing the Wiz and Clerics friends and then engages in Necrophilia (as per the Book of Vile Darkness)
4. Necro efficiently uses Summon Undead II in fights and the Wiz and Cleric are jealous
5. Wiz and Cleric aren't great with prepared casting and probably should have played Spontaneous Casters in the first place.
6. Dread Necro is using Taint and the Tainted Scholar PrC
7. Some real reason that is probably related to the people getting along better and not related to game mechanics at all.

cfalcon

2010-12-06, 01:57 PM

I just think it's interesting that you would limit the Wizard's spell list. That's probably the issue right there.

I don't know anything about a Dread Necromancer, but it sounds like a pet class, and you probably block out really cheesy effects. So your wizard probably has some spells that don't work as described (which is pretty much the case in all games), and lacks access to some later books...

Does the DN have a pet active? Or several? In a standard encounter, does he get to take several turns? Do your NPCs have buffed saving throws because you don't want the Wizard or Cleric to do a save-or-die to them, but you do like the idea of skeletons punching things?

Hrm. You don't have to answer if you don't want. I agree with the general flow of the thread that the Wizard and the Cleric being upset seems odd.

What level are your guys? Truenamers don't get awful until higher level when they can't use any of their abilities, and fighters are quite strong in normal play at low levels, because they just get to keep punching round after round while the casters need to save their spells for clutch moments.

BeholderSlayer

2010-12-06, 02:07 PM

Truenamers, as-written, can be pretty absurdly strong *IF THEY OPTIMIZE HEAVILY.*

I mean, when you can cast Gate, at-will, with no check? Ummmmm

Starbuck_II

2010-12-06, 02:09 PM

Truenamers, as-written, can be pretty absurdly strong *IF THEY OPTIMIZE HEAVILY.*

I mean, when you can cast Gate, at-will, with no check? Ummmmm

You ca'nt judge a class but level 20 only: otherwise Healer is stronger than Cleric. But it isn't because there are other levels.

BeholderSlayer

2010-12-06, 02:17 PM

You ca'nt judge a class but level 20 only: otherwise Healer is stronger than Cleric. But it isn't because there are other levels.

Truenamers can be pretty good all the way to 20, but still this requires heavy optimization. They won't ever be as strong as the cleric or wizard, but the fact taht they can use utterances all day long is good for longevity.

Greenish

2010-12-06, 02:20 PM

Truenamers can be pretty good all the way to 20, but still this requires heavy optimization. They won't ever be as strong as the cleric or wizard, but the fact taht they can use utterances all day long is good for longevity.Most utterances are rather weak to begin with.

BeholderSlayer

2010-12-06, 02:23 PM

Most utterances are rather weak to begin with.

Right, but they can be decent. I'm not saying the class will ever be anywhere near the power level of a dedicated spellcaster (at least until level 20), but it can do stuff.

Of course, this is assuming you're allowed to omgoptimize your Truename skill with stuff like Item Familiars.

Psyren

2010-12-06, 02:34 PM

Of course, this is assuming you're allowed to omgoptimize your Truename skill with stuff like Item Familiars.

Item familiars, feats, custom +skill items, membership in obscure organizations...

And not one of those things gets around the ****ing Law of Sequence. :smallfurious:

Greenish

2010-12-06, 02:37 PM

Right, but they can be decent. I'm not saying the class will ever be anywhere near the power level of a dedicated spellcaster (at least until level 20), but it can do stuff.

Of course, this is assuming you're allowed to omgoptimize your Truename skill with stuff like Item Familiars.Well, even if you can always make the check, truenamer comes to tier 4, tops.

I wouldn't describe that as "powerful".

BeholderSlayer

2010-12-06, 02:43 PM

Well, even if you can always make the check, truenamer comes to tier 4, tops.

I wouldn't describe that as "powerful".

Ok, so I used the wrong word. How about "not worthless?"

Chen

2010-12-06, 02:44 PM

Wizards and Clerics vs Spontaneous casters can have issues depending on how the campaign is setup too. If you choose the wrong spells for the day it can dramatically effect your efficiency. If there are constraints on time for whatever reason it may not be feasible or possible to KNOW what exactly what spells you'll need. As such slots need to be "wasted" on having some backups handy. This tends to be less of a case for wizards who can make scrolls of the niche spells they may need but it can definitely limit a cleric if they don't take scribe scroll.

Choco

2010-12-06, 03:16 PM

What you got here is the perfect example of tiers as we know them being useless when the players are inexperienced (or at the very least are not optimizers). There should be a separate tier list for groups/players like that, with T1 being classes that require minimal to no effort to make powerful, like the Dread Necro. I was able to beat the entire rest of my party (which also had a Cleric and a Wizard in it) using a CW Samurai because they are the types that don't bother cracking open a rulebook until it's time to level up, when they impulsively select what sounds coolest to them at the time. I suspect your group is like this, yes?

In this specific case I can see the True Necro being overpowered, in the sense that while the Wizard and Cleric can be many orders of magnitude more powerful, they require effort to reach that level (even if the "effort" is just looking for a build online). The Dread Necro on the other hand is hard to get wrong, as has been stated already, and is very powerful "out of the box" with no tweaking required.

As for the solution to the problem, there is no real easy way to handle this. If you retroactively ban classes like Dread Necro, Warmage, Beguiler, any ToB class, etc. that is unfair to the player of the Dread Necro who did no wrong. On the other hand, the players of the other characters might not appreciate you interfering with their characters, even if it IS to make them more powerful.

DungeonDelver

2010-12-06, 03:17 PM

I think everybody's right. The Wizard player and Cleric player may be playing below par on their characters.

Are we talking healbot cleric? Blasty-type wizard? Those may be reasons.

Arkeht

2010-12-06, 04:15 PM

I just think it's interesting that you would limit the Wizard's spell list. That's probably the issue right there.

I was thinking of opening up the Hero's of Horror spell selection for everyone since one of the major problems they say is the the fact that he could summon large scale undead. However the player himself generally holds back from summoning undead unless his life is in extreme danger for rp reasons.

Do your NPCs have buffed saving throws because you don't want the Wizard or Cleric to do a save-or-die to them, but you do like the idea of skeletons punching things?

This isn't the case My wizard used Phantasmal Killer to one shot my boss last session in round two. He is also known to use suggestion often to hinder my bosses pretty effectively.

FMArthur

2010-12-06, 04:54 PM

Your Wizard player is just being a jerk to the Dread Necro, then. What's the Cleric doing?

Vemynal

2010-12-06, 04:55 PM

^- if the wizard one shoted your boss then to be honest I'm a little confused (as others have said) at what exactly their problem is

Could this possibly be a case of them wanting to completely outclass everyone else in the game and since they can't they are getting upset?

Or as another mentioned is the Dread Necro's minions bogging down combat? (though if he doesnt want to use summon undead for rp reasons then I doubt this is the problem)

I normally wouldn't suggest this, and I also wouldn't suggest saying this to the players as such...

But honestly in your situation I'd probably tell the players to quit their b**** fit.

*especially* if the fighter and truenamer are ok with the DN.

JaronK

2010-12-06, 06:17 PM

The Cleric can do absolutely everything the DN can do, and more. So can the Wizard. They're just not creative enough. Especially since there's VERY few spells the DN has that the Wizard doesn't, and those don't matter (the new spells from HoH aren't the good ones).

And who cares about Summon Undead? The Wizard has Summon Monster doesn't he?

Meanwhile, the Fighter and the Truenamer might need help, but they're not asking.

JaronK

tyckspoon

2010-12-06, 06:21 PM

I was thinking of opening up the Hero's of Horror spell selection for everyone since one of the major problems they say is the the fact that he could summon large scale undead. However the player himself generally holds back from summoning undead unless his life is in extreme danger for rp reasons.

..really? It's the bruiser undead they're complaining about? Not, say, that Summon Undead IV can summon an Allip, which is untouchable to like 80% of what you fight and can easily take down most anything with Wisdom drain? Have they looked at their own summon lists? They can get a Celestial Lion or a small swarm of Hippogriffs out of Summon Monster IV.. Summon Undead really doesn't compare to a gang of 3 'griffs.

Akal Saris

2010-12-06, 08:44 PM

Actually, the Summon Undead spells were changed in the Spell Compendium, since the ones in Heroes of Horror are too powerful. If you're using the original spells, you should change them to the Spell Compendium versions.

Godskook

2010-12-06, 09:02 PM

Coidzor

2010-12-06, 11:01 PM

...OP, one of their bigger problems with him is that he could do something that he wouldn't do unless they had all failed in doing their jobs? :smallconfused: That doesn't reflect flatteringly on them, that's for sure.

Isn't the strongest ability of the Dread Necromancer is in minions, basically able to have more HD of them and having corpsecrafter for free (though still needing to take it in order to get more of the feat-line. Which the cleric and wizard are both also able to make and take those feats if they wanted to. They don't get free corpsecrafter, but the cleric does have easy access to desecrated altars of appropriate deities and can start sooner. And the Wizard can create traps with which to summon and off outsiders to get corpses to make really nice undeads.

JaronK

2010-12-06, 11:07 PM

JaronK, keep in mind that HoH spells are DN-only in their campaign. Those "Summon Undead" spells aren't on anyone else's lists.

Exactly, hence my comment that Summon Undead hardly matters much when the Wizard can cast Summon Monster just as easily.

JaronK

faceroll

2010-12-06, 11:14 PM

They're just not creative enough.

Or they don't have enough books.

JaronK

2010-12-06, 11:17 PM

Since when have you needed more than Core to do darn near anything? Heck, the SRD gives enough spells to go absolutely nuts. Note I was saying that Summon Monster was enough to match what the DN was up to. That's in the PHB. So's Planar Binding if they want giant scary minions.

JaronK

ArcanistSupreme

2010-12-06, 11:17 PM

Or they don't have enough books.

Aren't a core-only cleric and a core+CM wizard ridiculously powerful enough without additional splat support? :smallconfused:

EDIT: swordsage'd
Oh, and don't forget glitterdust, divine power, black tentacles, solid fog, enervation, all of the various buffs a cleric can use...

umbrapolaris

2010-12-06, 11:34 PM

look at their character, and make everybody reroll for feats and spells, tell them howto optimize their class, describe briefly their potential at high level. it should be enough, unless if they are power-hungry...

Dralnu

2010-12-07, 01:12 AM

The Classes are:

Cleric
Dread Necromancer
Fighter
Truenamer
Rogue
Wizard/Nightmare spinner

Dread Necromancers are very powerful right out of the box and in this situation can easily be considered overpowered compared to the rest of the group. The class, without really trying, can do everything the Rogue / Fighter / Truenamer does but better.

I have a suspicion that the cleric and wizard aren't optimized. Especially the wizard, considering his chosen PrC isn't incredibly powerful. While these two classes can be stronger than the necro, they can also be much worse, since it depends on build choices and tactics.

Can the dread necromancer be considered too powerful here? Yes, depending on the party's power level. I'm assuming that since everyone's complaining, the necro is indeed outshining everyone else. You can limit the necro's power though by just being aware of its abilities and limitations. Raise Dead requires onyx and this gets pricey fast. The necro won't have 12-headed zombie hydra minions if he can't find those corpses, and you probably shouldn't give him those corpses either. Keep him honest. You can easily get the Cleric and Wizard up to the DN's level just by recommending a few spells. You can't help the rest though, except by throwing ultra sweet loot for them in order to compensate.

Coidzor

2010-12-07, 01:18 AM

You can't help the rest though, except by throwing ultra sweet loot for them in order to compensate.

Or quietly offing the Truenamer and forgetting it ever existed.

DragonOfUndeath

2010-12-07, 02:19 AM

Or quietly offing the Truenamer and forgetting it ever existed.

The Truenamer isn't the problem. It seems only the (suspected unoptimized) Cleric and Wizard (Tier1) have a problem with a (? optimization) Dread Necromancer (Tier3) that doesn't even make use of his best class features (Undead). It sounds like a couple of wannabe gods complaining about a demi-god.

Coidzor

2010-12-07, 02:48 AM

The Truenamer isn't the problem. It seems only the (suspected unoptimized) Cleric and Wizard (Tier1) have a problem with a (? optimization) Dread Necromancer (Tier3) that doesn't even make use of his best class features (Undead). It sounds like a couple of wannabe gods complaining about a demi-god.

No, no, no, I know the Truenamer was an oddity in that he wasn't complaining about the power level of the others relative to himself. I say get rid of the class on general principle.

It's a mercy killing, really.

FelixG

2010-12-07, 05:47 AM

Petty much just need to tell the Wizard and Cleric to suck it up.

The wizard has complete access to the spell compendium right? if he cant make a viable build out of that and the core (and everyone here knows he can :P) then you should take his sheet away and make him reroll something else..

..There is no need to open Heroes of Horror up to him just because he is whining about a character he could beat hands down if he plays his character with a small bit of smarts. Why let him rain on the DNs fun just because he cant do his own thing well?

Wizard: "He can summon really good undead!"
DM: "Yes, he can...He is a necromancer...you are a wizard, you can do...everything else...in the universe..."
Wizard: "But I want to steal HIS niche!"
:smallbiggrin:

FMArthur

2010-12-07, 07:51 AM

Also remember that Summon Undead, like Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally, require 1 round of casting time, which is different than a full-round action. A 1-round casting time takes up your full-round action and has you in the state of casting the spell all the way up until your next turn, where the spell activates right at the start of it (taking up no additional actions).

Exception: Wizards can do it as a standard action without drawbacks using an ACF.

Grendus

2010-12-07, 10:42 AM

Just to echo what everyone else is saying, the wizard and cleric need to learn their classes better. Granted, while limited to core they aren't quite as powerful (tougher to be clericzilla when you don't have DMM, for example, though still doable via metamagic rods) but they still have their save or die's, buff spells, blasting spells that can make the lion totem barbarian cry, summoning spells that make the fighter seem like a waste of loot, etc. Heroes of Horror has some nice spells, but nothing that suddenly makes the dread necromancer overpowered - especially since he doesn't get many of them anyways.

I find it more ironic that the T5 and T6 classes aren't complaining, and that the wizard is complaining after he one shot a boss. Just remind them that the dread necro may be the duke of the dead, but the wizard is the friggin king of the arcane and the cleric is the god of divine. They're second only to the archivist, who's master of both.

Boci

2010-12-07, 12:16 PM

Exception: Wizards can do it as a standard action without drawbacks using an ACF.

Not quite. Monster is limited to a single standard action on their first turn.

Chilingsworth

2010-12-07, 12:30 PM

Maybe introducing the Spell Compendium to everyone would help. I'd guess it'd help even more if you "introduced it" by hitting the troublemakers over the head with it first.:smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes

2010-12-07, 12:43 PM

If the Wizard is one-shotting bosses, I really doubt he's that badly built.

I think this is just a case of, he is playing a tier 1 character. Everyone knows wizards are supposed to be the best, bar none. So if he isn't the best bar none, then clearly the other class is overpowered because it's not a wizard but is even remotely competing with one!
:smallwink: