Fireball Vs Web... (3.5)

[panaikhan]

Now, I'm not talking about usefulness, or anything like that.

I'm talking about when a Mage casts a Fireball, to clear away a webbed area.

As far as I can tell, RAW a fireball needs line of sight AND line of effect to reach it's target.
This may be a houserule, but I judge the line of effect for fireball to finish at the edge of the webbed area. I rule the same for missile weapons fired at webbed targets (the webs of the first square stop the missile).

Now, with this in mind, I ruled in a session this weekend that Fireball would clear each square it touched, and sinse it does not exert any pressure, this would only be the first square deep along the edge of the webbed area.
Am I right?
Would other fire spells fare better or worse? Burning Hands? Scorching Ray?

Any constructive comments are appreciated.

[Tyger]

Web provides total cover beyond twenty feet, which means that you could rule that you have no LoS more than twenty feet in.

So in that case, you'd launch your fireball into the web twenty feet, and it would spread (remember, spreads don't care about LoS, just Line of Effect) for its full size, clearing all the web in that area.

So no, even with a very tight interpretation, a Fireball would burn away a lot more than just the first five feet. Technically, as the spreads are the same size for both spells, a Fireball should completely eliminate the Web, and deal all that extra damage to anything caught within it.

[Morithias]

Now, I'm not talking about usefulness, or anything like that.

I'm talking about when a Mage casts a Fireball, to clear away a webbed area.

As far as I can tell, RAW a fireball needs line of sight AND line of effect to reach it's target.
This may be a houserule, but I judge the line of effect for fireball to finish at the edge of the webbed area. I rule the same for missile weapons fired at webbed targets (the webs of the first square stop the missile).

Now, with this in mind, I ruled in a session this weekend that Fireball would clear each square it touched, and sinse it does not exert any pressure, this would only be the first square deep along the edge of the webbed area.
Am I right?
Would other fire spells fare better or worse? Burning Hands? Scorching Ray?

Any constructive comments are appreciated.

Unless you're under attack by spiders at the current moment, I would just say "light a torch", since webs I think are burnable and should just burn in a chain reaction, pretty much any fire attack should do it.

Just don't do it if you're inside of a giant tree or you might destroy the whole dungeon and kill everyone.

[Psyx]

since webs I think are burnable

A fairly recent discussion at the table resulted in a cigarette lighter being applied to a large spider web, which graced the corner of the dining room. It was certainly destroyed in the area where the lighter was directly held, but the idea that the whole web burns or otherwise ignites was soon very empirically discovered to be a total myth.

I'd allow the fireball to clear it's full AOE, but not to then cause any web outside the AOE to be destroyed.

YSWMV! :smallsmile:

[Morithias]

A fairly recent discussion at the table resulted in a cigarette lighter being applied to a web. It was certainly destroyed in the are where the lighter was directly held, but the idea that the whole web burns was soon very empirically discovered to be a total myth.

I'd allow the fireball to clear it's full AOE, but not to then cause any web outside the AOE to be destroyed.

YSWMV! :smallsmile:

No idea what "YSWMV" means, but seeing how the torch doesn't go out as soon as you touch the first web, couldn't you just use it over and over to burn through the rest of them? Or burn the edges so they drop to the ground.

Wait...didn't the example battle in the DMG guide have the cleric burn the web after they killed the mother spider who bite the rogue or something?

[panaikhan]

Normal methods of burning away a Web spell (lit torch etc) result in one 5' square per standard action. In the middle of a combat, that's slow going.

I'm not concerned with line of sight much, but line of effect. 3rd edition fireballs do not exert any pressure. They can be contained in anything (if you could cork/close it fast enough). A creature cannot simply stroll through a web, yet they can hold a door closed on a Fireball.

[Tyger]

Normal methods of burning away a Web spell (lit torch etc) result in one 5' square per standard action. In the middle of a combat, that's slow going.

I'm not concerned with line of sight much, but line of effect. 3rd edition fireballs do not exert any pressure. They can be contained in anything (if you could cork/close it fast enough). A creature cannot simply stroll through a web, yet they can hold a door closed on a Fireball.

And nothing in the Web spell states that it blocks Line of Effect. Therefore, it doesn't.

So a Fireball, properly placed, clears all the Web. That's RAW.

[panaikhan]

so on another note, a creature caught in a web is fair play for missile fire, with no dex?

[Morithias]

And nothing in the Web spell states that it blocks Line of Effect. Therefore, it doesn't.

So a Fireball, properly placed, clears all the Web. That's RAW.

I'm pretty sure it's said that the fireball and similar spells that spit out a small ball that travels then expand can be aimed at small holes to get through them. However if the holes are small enough (like an arrow slit) the DM can demand a touch attack roll.

Of course webs that are large enough to block adventures probably have big enough holes where that's not really a problem.

So yes, I agree.

so on another note, a creature caught in a web is fair play for missile fire, with no dex?

Answer: Yes, however remember that spiders and such are immune to their own webs, i wouldn't waste fire on something stuck in the web, it's clearly not a threat compared to the active spider.

Of course killing it after the spider, but before burning the web would be wise depending on what it is.

[AnswersQuestion]

Fireball is a spread effect, thus total cover does not protect against it. The only way for cover to remove line of effect is for it to extend beyond the spell's area or to for the cover to be both hermetic and survive the fireball.

[Morithias]

Fireball is a spread effect, thus total cover does not protect against it. The only way for cover to remove line of effect is for it to extend beyond the spell's area or to for the cover to be both hermetic and survive the fireball.

I'd probably rule that you have to be a distance away, too and at a good angle. Standing 5 feet north and 5 feet east of a 5' hole you just cast the spell into a 5' (I know) coridor probably isn't the smartest thing to do. If you've ever watched even one episode of mythbusters where they blow a house up, you know what I mean. The fire gets forced through the hole and expands hitting you.

then again this is magic and not the far easier to understand SCIENCE!

[Tyger]

I'd probably rule that you have to be a distance away, too and at a good angle. Standing 5 feet north and 5 feet east of a 5' hole you just cast the spell into a 5' (I know) coridor probably isn't the smartest thing to do. If you've ever watched even one episode of mythbusters where they blow a house up, you know what I mean. The fire gets forced through the hole and expands hitting you.

then again this is magic and not the far easier to understand SCIENCE!

Interesting... you allow terrain to expand and change the shapes of spells? How do you rule that consistently?

[panaikhan]

To Morithias: The missile question was for when the PC's next get caught in a web.

The play session this came out of was a battle with mages on both sides. The first mage Webbed the area, and the second mage wanted to clear the Web with Fireball.

I'll talk it over with the group. If Web doesn't block LoE for any missiles (be they magic or mundane) then yes, Fireball will clear Web - but raises the vunerability of people caught in it.

[Morithias]

Interesting... you allow terrain to expand and change the shapes of spells? How do you rule that consistently?

We look at the shape of the spell and apply math. All spells with circles apply in similar ways and so on. I'm really the only DM that does it, but after watching endless episodes of mythbusters and taking physics courses I can generally rule pretty fast.

Plus it's just funny when the players accidentally hit themselves with their own spells.

"Oops sorry, it looks like I have to blind you with science."

And yes I did get the "book over the head" for that pun.

[Psyx]

No idea what "YSWMV" means, but seeing how the torch doesn't go out as soon as you touch the first web, couldn't you just use it over and over to burn through the rest of them? Or burn the edges so they drop to the ground.



Yes. You could do that. That would work fine.
However there seems to be a myth amongst gamers that webs easily ignite and then the whole area burns. This is basically fiction: The web did not continue to burn in any way after the source of heat was removed, nor did areas not directly exposed to the flame burn or melt.

Your SpiderWebs May Vary! :smallcool:

[Morithias]

Yes. You could do that. That would work fine.
However there seems to be a myth amongst gamers that webs easily ignite and then the whole area burns. This is basically fiction: The web did not continue to burn in any way after the source of heat was removed, nor did areas not directly exposed to the flame burn or melt.

Your SpiderWebs May Vary! :smallcool:

6 words: Legend of Zelda Nintendo Sixty Four.

You all know what I'm talking about.

[Psyx]

This was one of many improvised science experiments carried around around our games table in order to settle debates once and for all.

Not as much fun as getting someone to do star jumps for two minutes while holding their breath, though.

And hairspray flamethrowers really don't ignite anything much. Not even a sheet of printer paper on a quick burst that doesn't touch its edges...

FOR SCIENCE!

[Morithias]

This was one of many improvised science experiments carried around around our games table in order to settle debates once and for all.

Not as much fun as getting someone to do star jumps for two minutes while holding their breath, though.

And hairspray flamethrowers really don't ignite anything much. Not even a sheet of printer paper on a quick burst that doesn't touch its edges...

FOR SCIENCE!

WITH SCIENCE!

Our craziest experiment was when we tried to splice scorpion DNA into my best friend's sister to see if we could many antro-animals.

Needless to say we didn't succeed, and were lucky that Canada has universal health care.

No we didn't actually do that, I'm just playing up the "Mad science" thing.

[Hanuman]

The strands of a web spell are flammable. A magic flaming sword can slash them away as easily as a hand brushes away cobwebs. Any fire can set the webs alight and burn away 5 square feet in 1 round. All creatures within flaming webs take 2d4 points of fire damage from the flames.
Ignition + Fuel + Air = Fire

Fireball + Large Surface Area Aerated Fuel + Air = LOTS OF FIRE


As for actual spider webs, they are made of protein, and protein loves to smoulder and curl, the smaller the amount the quicker it curls.

A fireball is HOOOOOOOT. Like, I shouldn't need to tell you how hot.

As a DM I would say that the only fire is due to the fireball, a little smoke comes from where the spider web used to be, but if it's regular spider web with reasonable thickness, it's almost certainly going to shriver AWAY from the flame before the flame "touches" it.

Mechanically, I'd say 5' radius per 5 caster levels from the edge of the fireball is cleared, I imagine 10d6 fireball damage is absolutely crazy.

References: I'm a professional fire performer.

[Morithias]

Ignition + Fuel + Air = Fire

Fireball + Large Surface Area Aerated Fuel + Air = LOTS OF FIRE

So make sure you're not inside a Giant Tree! You might kill the guardian of the forest!

[Psyx]

Ignition + Fuel + Air = Fire

Fireball + Large Surface Area Aerated Fuel + Air = LOTS OF FIRE



That assumes that webs are a decent fuel source. It turns out that this isn't at all true and they won't sustain ignition after the heat source is removed.

[Hanuman]

That assumes that webs are a decent fuel source. It turns out that this isn't at all true and they won't sustain ignition after the heat source is removed.
The original comment assumed he was talking about web, the spell.

[Tyger]

We look at the shape of the spell and apply math. All spells with circles apply in similar ways and so on. I'm really the only DM that does it, but after watching endless episodes of mythbusters and taking physics courses I can generally rule pretty fast.

Plus it's just funny when the players accidentally hit themselves with their own spells.

"Oops sorry, it looks like I have to blind you with science."

And yes I did get the "book over the head" for that pun.

Reminds me of the Shadowrun rules for explosions in confined areas. Also known as the "Chunky Salsa Effect". I like this, and would love to apply it, but maths r ebil so I won't even attempt it. :) When in fear of math, I stick with the "it's magic" rationale. Saves me headaches.

[AnswersQuestion]

Reminds me of the Shadowrun rules for explosions in confined areas. Also known as the "Chunky Salsa Effect". I like this, and would love to apply it, but maths r ebil so I won't even attempt it. :) When in fear of math, I stick with the "it's magic" rationale. Saves me headaches.

Not sure about other spells, but fireballs don't "explode" either. They just make a specific area really hot. The description goes out of its way to tell that there is very little pressure generated by the fire.

[Morithias]

Not sure about other spells, but fireballs don't "explode" either. They just make a specific area really hot. The description goes out of its way to tell that there is very little pressure generated by the fire.

But that pressure still needs to go somewhere.

[Tyger]

Not sure about other spells, but fireballs don't "explode" either. They just make a specific area really hot. The description goes out of its way to tell that there is very little pressure generated by the fire.

Oh, I completely agree. I wasn't advocating that. RAW there is no change to the spell because of confinement.

Now in Shadowrun, the rules are very specific about how expanding forces contained in an area work... the math is complex, and the results are messy. :)

[AnswersQuestion]

But that pressure still needs to go somewhere.

By "very little pressure", they meant "no gameplay effect will come from it other than the immediate temperature change". The cinders from a sheet of paper wouldn't move.

[cfalcon]

Fireball doesn't take line of sight at all. Otherwise you couldn't fire it into a dark room, it would detonate on the darkness. Or right in front of your finger if someone blew out your torch.

You're being silly anyway. You are supposed to be able to clear a web with a fireball, that's why web was written that way. Don't punish your players for knowing the spell better than you do.

[Douglas]

Even if Web did block both line of effect and line of sight completely, Fireball would still clear the whole thing. Fireball explicitly continues through any barrier that it destroys. For a barrier to block a Fireball, the barrier itself must survive the Fireball intact. Since Web is so flammable that any square damaged by a Fireball automatically burns away, a Fireball would continue through the Web for its full radius.

Web could conceivably interfere with placement of the center point of a Fireball (total cover provided by 20' of Web should prevent the bead from going any further), but the detonation proceeds unhindered and can, indeed, clear an entire Web spell with a single blast.

As for the Line of Effect issue, that's handled by the cover mechanic. 5' of Web provides cover, which gives +4 AC and +2 reflex, as well as preventing AoOs and allowing you to Hide. 20' of Web provides total cover, which blocks Line of Effect.

[Incanur]

Otherwise you couldn't fire it into a dark room, it would detonate on the darkness.

I've heard it's better to cast magic missile at the darkness - even if you're a sorcerer of light. :smallsmile:

[ericgrau]

The description of fireball says that it will continue on if it destroys a barrier. Therefore you could center a fireball at the edge of a web (but not the center of the web) and destroy 20' of web.

[faceroll]

A fairly recent discussion at the table resulted in a cigarette lighter being applied to a large spider web, which graced the corner of the dining room. It was certainly destroyed in the area where the lighter was directly held, but the idea that the whole web burns or otherwise ignites was soon very empirically discovered to be a total myth.

I'd allow the fireball to clear it's full AOE, but not to then cause any web outside the AOE to be destroyed.

YSWMV! :smallsmile:

The differences between a web large enough to trap horses in and one for flies suggest that your empirical evidence isn't very useful.


The description of fireball says that it will continue on if it destroys a barrier. Therefore you could center a fireball at the edge of a web (but not the center of the web) and destroy 20' of web.

I would have the caster make an attack roll to target anything beyond the first 5 feet of webbed area. Failures means he misses and strikes the first 5 feet.

[Endarire]

Fireball will burn up the web in the blast radius. The web will then burn away at its standard rate of 5' per round fin adjacent spaces.

That's my ruling and my understanding of this interaction.

[ericgrau]

I would have the caster make an attack roll to target anything beyond the first 5 feet of webbed area. Failures means he misses and strikes the first 5 feet.
Interestingly enough this is also in the fireball spell description. If you want to launch a fireball through an opening then you must hit the AC of the opening. Treat a Small hole as a Small object, a Tiny hole as a Tiny object, etc.

I thought I'd check the spell to see how far you could reach:


Web creates a many-layered mass of strong, sticky strands.
...
If you have at least 5 feet of web between you and an opponent, it provides cover. If you have at least 20 feet of web between you, it provides total cover.

So getting 20' deep into the web is impossible, and hitting a square 5-15 feet into the web has an AC of 9 (5 + 4 for cover). So it looks like you could actually burn up to 35 feet of the web's 40 foot diameter, leaving a 40' wide crescent shape of unburnt web that's 5 feet deep at the thickest.

[Hanuman]

Interestingly enough this is also in the fireball spell description. If you want to launch a fireball through an opening then you must hit the AC of the opening. Treat a Small hole as a Small object, a Tiny hole as a Tiny object, etc.

I thought I'd check the spell to see how far you could reach:

So getting 20' deep into the web is impossible, and hitting a square 5-15 feet into the web has an AC of 9 (5 + 4 for cover). So it looks like you could actually burn up to 35 feet of the web's 40 foot diameter, leaving a 40' wide crescent shape of unburnt web that's 5 feet deep at the thickest.
Uh, what type of web?

We still talking about the spell? Because RAW it's flammable and subject to "things set on fire by other hot things".

[panaikhan]

Thank you all for your input. I didn't think this would generate much interest, but still.

I will stand corrected.

I like ericgrau's proposal, of aiming for a square with cover, and letting the Fireball remove all the squares it would occupy.
According to the spell description, Web does not continue to burn once you remove the fire source, so a few squares will be left at the edge furthest from the caster. Fireball doesn't (as I am aware) actually set things on fire, so no secondary effects there.

OK, what about spells like Fire Arrow or Scorching Ray? Would they clear a 'path' to the target?

[AnswersQuestion]

Fireball doesn't (as I am aware) actually set things on fire, so no secondary effects there.


It does, indeed.

The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

[panaikhan]

My apologies.
In a NPC vs PC environment, there will be little (or no) 'combustables' in the area, unless every person caught in the fireball emerges from it ablaze. In any case, anything set fire to will be cleared of Webs by the Fireball.
Web specifically states it doesn't continue burning.

[Psyx]

The differences between a web large enough to trap horses in and one for flies suggest that your empirical evidence isn't very useful.


Have you got anything more useful though? If you have a roomful of giant spider webs, I'd dispose of my own observations in favour of yours (and would love to see it on Youtube!). Otherwise, I'm going to have to go with the evidence that I have access to, rather than 30 years of ingrained gamer mythology.



OK, what about spells like Fire Arrow or Scorching Ray? Would they clear a 'path' to the target?

I'd personally say 'no'. The spells aren't AOE. They'd clear a 'hole' that's scorching ray shaped, but that's far from clearing a 5' area. It's like sticking a red-hot poker into the mass... only clears what it touches.


But that pressure still needs to go somewhere.

I think that's exactly what it's not supposed to do. 1e and 2e fireballs filled to a cubic volume, and it was a right royal pain to work out the area they'd fill, and GMs putting up walls of force and suchlike to ensure the party firealled itself was very dull. 3e Fireballs seem specifically designed to avoid the issue, and to only fill the intended area while not blowing stuff about or setting it on fire. I'd personally say 'what pressure, it's magic' for the sake of simplicity.

[Hanuman]

My apologies.
In a NPC vs PC environment, there will be little (or no) 'combustables' in the area, unless every person caught in the fireball emerges from it ablaze. In any case, anything set fire to will be cleared of Webs by the Fireball.
Web specifically states it doesn't continue burning.
Cite?

It says that it's flammable, and considering you could presumably set fire to it with a candle, I'm willing to wager the entire thing could go up.

[ericgrau]

I thought to myself, then why does the spell describe a flaming weapon slashing it away easily? Why not set it on fire with said weapon instead? Then I went back and read the whole thing:


The strands of a web spell are flammable. A magic flaming sword can slash them away as easily as a hand brushes away cobwebs. Any fire can set the webs alight and burn away 5 square feet in 1 round. All creatures within flaming webs take 2d4 points of fire damage from the flames.

IMO the most likely interpretation is that the remaining 5 feet of web burns away by next round. The other possible interpretation is that the fire burns up and you need to continually hold a fire to it (like a torch) to burn away additional sections at the rate of 5'x5' per round.

FWIW real webs use the 2nd interpretation, as they actually shrivel away quickly from fire instead of burning. But then that wouldn't even do 2d4 fire damage, so who knows. The other explanation is that they are very shrivelly and slightly flammable, so they might do a little damage but then disintegrate quickly before sustaining any ongoing flame. I couldn't get a certain answer from 1 minute of googling.

[Grelna the Blue]

Not sure about other spells, but fireballs don't "explode" either. They just make a specific area really hot. The description goes out of its way to tell that there is very little pressure generated by the fire.

Yeah, they wanted to make it clear that fireballs didn't work the way they did in previous editions, in which they expanded to fit the available volume if they couldn't form a 20' radius sphere of fire where cast.

Said available volume equaled the volume of the potential sphere, or 4/3 * π * 203, or approx 33,493 cubic feet. That's about 330 feet of 10' high x 10' wide corridor. In early editions of D&D, many were the parties who were blown up by their own mages.