[3.5] Would You Allow This?

[Fax Celestis]

They range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal. (Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs due to their sturdy construction.)

Was making a gish when the idea of wielding and enchanting a metamagic rod as a light mace, and adding a wand chamber to it, seemed like an interesting, thematic idea. However, technically metamagic rods are not listed as rods that are typically wieldable as weapons. Thoughts?

[Saph]

Sure, seems reasonable enough. I suppose there'd be the issue of "multiple enchantments on one item", but assuming the player wanted it because they thought it'd be cool I'd probably handwave that.

[true_shinken]

Was making a gish when the idea of wielding and enchanting a metamagic rod as a light mace, and adding a wand chamber to it, seemed like an interesting, thematic idea. However, technically metamagic rods are not listed as rods that are typically wieldable as weapons. Thoughts?

I'd allow it. Doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

[Sir Swindle89]

considering you could just use the rod from your belt and attack with the mace normally. This is really just a dissadvantage for the fun of it so, i'd say go ahead.

[LordBlades]

I see nothing to be gained optimization-wise from doing so, so I'd say go ahead. TBH, i think it's a very cool concept.

[gbprime]

Absolutely. I'm a big fan of making magic items do multiple things, even at the expense of the extra cost.

In the campaign I'm gearing up for, I use that. Magic items can and do get broken. But the more magical they are, the more hardness, HP, and saving throws they get. The end result is that items with more enchantments on them are more durable. And they make for snazzier, unique treasure. :smallsmile:

[DungeonDelver]

I see absolutely no reason not to allow this. I can't think of any way it could be really abused, not off the top of my head anyway. Unless he figures out some weird way to abuse it, there's no reason not to.

[Person_Man]

I'd allow it.

Also, you've given me the sudden urge to homebrew a PrC or Feats that allow someone to specialize in fighting with Immovable Rods. If you could switch turn them on and off as an free action, it seems like it would be an awesome way to block attacks and boost acrobatics, in addition to just smacking people with them like a mace.

[Optimator]

I'd allow it. Doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

My sentiments exactly.

[Fax Celestis]

Also, you've given me the sudden urge to homebrew a PrC or Feats that allow someone to specialize in fighting with Immovable Rods. If you could switch turn them on and off as an free action, it seems like it would be an awesome way to block attacks and boost acrobatics, in addition to just smacking people with them like a mace.

YES

IT MUST BE DONE

[GoatBoy]

I believe there's at least one rod that states it's usable as a light mace. If it's the size of a mace and the shape of a mace and weighs as much as a mace... why not?

If your DM says no, get him to specify why.

[Incanur]

I would definitely allow this. I'd be fine with upgrading the rod as weapon independent from its other function; this might even be RAW according to the MIC. I can't quite recall.

[Lateral]

Also, you've given me the sudden urge to homebrew a PrC or Feats that allow someone to specialize in fighting with Immovable Rods.
It's been done.
The Immovable Rod Master PrC, from a 3rd party sourcebook IIRC.

Yeah, Immovable Rods are awesome.

[faceroll]

I see nothing to be gained optimization-wise from doing so, so I'd say go ahead. TBH, i think it's a very cool concept.

Well, if he had to draw and put away the rod, he'd need quickdraw or to spend actions, as he's a gish that hits things with a weapon.

[Person_Man]

It's been done. The Immovable Rod Master PrC, from a 3rd party sourcebook IIRC.

Yeah, Immovable Rods are awesome.

Do you know which 3rd party sourcebook? Does anyone have a link to a preview or a list of what it can actually do?

Also, I know there were several 1001 uses for an Immovable Rod threads out there, but I'm blocked at work right now. Can anyone copy/paste a list?

[DungeonDelver]

I once had an idea for a weird acrobatic character that would use immovable rods and whips with the Lasher class to get around. Toss a rod, use a whip to get it to freeze in place, use the whip to swing on the rod, etc...

[Lateral]

I don't know what sourcebook IRM was in. Can't copy/paste an entire list, but here's some uses.
10 – The Ladder: This is probably the most obvious use of a pair of immovable rods (it’s written in the item’s descriptive text), but, what happens when you only have one immovable rod? Well, that’s when you’ll have to unlock your inner ninja warrior and climb the salmon ladder. Once you are hanging from the rod in mid-air, using upper body strength, release the rod from its current position and force it upwards, to a slightly higher position, and then lock it in its new position. Repeat until you reach your desired height.

To emulate this in the rules, I would suggest using an acrobatics (jump) check to determine the starting height of the salmon ladder. Then, with a DC 15 climb check, as a full round action, you can “climb” 5 feet higher (you don’t want to roll for every individual salmon hop). Every additional 5 feet requires another full round action and increases the climb DC by 5 for every previous round of salmon ladder climbing. If you fall, a DC 20 climb check is required to bring the rod with you. You can then arrest your fall with a climb check (DC equal to the last salmon hop attempted) 10 feet below the height at which you fell.

9 – Hammock: The non-wizard’s version of rope trick.

8 – Shelter: Immovable rods make it easier to create impromptu shelters since they can be used as supports, tent pegs and so forth. Reduce the survival check DC for providing shelter against severe weather (when using the stationary option) by 1 for every immovable rod at your disposal.

7 – Barricade: An Immovable rod can be used to quickly barricade a door. This won’t hold out the zombie horde indefinitely, since the door can eventually be destroyed, but it should buy enough time to move the piano into place (see below).

6 – Traps: Immovable rods provide portable support points for trip lines, fulcrums in a lever system to topple boulders, the upright supports for a giant slingshot or even the axle in the pulley system of a piano drop trap.

5 – Anti-Trap: Immovable rods can be used to jam almost any type of mechanical trap, but is probably best suited for one trap type in particular – the trash compactor (descending ceilings or moving walls). Immovable rods, may not completely stop the trap (remember weight capacity/strength check to move), but can still buy valuable time.

4 – Castle in the Sky: Immovable rods can be used in the foundations of a flying building. I leave the exact requirements/maths up to the player crazy enough to build her own flying castle.

3 – Time Stop: With a nod of acknowledgement to Superman, imagine a fantasy super eco-villain that travels the globe, placing immovable rods in strategic positions and angles with a final goal of arresting planetary rotation causing unimagineable geological and climate-related disasters.

2 – Easy Pin: When grappling, you have the option of using a length of rope to tie up your opponent. Fair enough, but I’d say that you could use an immovable rod in a similar fashion – in fact, I’d say it’s easier to pin somebody down with the rod than it is with a rope (+2 bonus to the bind check). Shoving a rod into the mouth of a spellcaster (breaking some teeth in the process) or across the throat would also effectively silence her. There is the issue of the handy release button on the rod, but clever placement of the rod, or trapping arms against the body etc. should prevent easy release, thus still requiring an escape artist check to escape. (Bonus: the strength check to move the rod is greater than the break DC for most common bindings.)

EDIT: There’s been some IM argument about this one. So, for now, I’m going to strike it off the list – as using the rod in this manner would actually be too situational.

2 – Play Fetch: Throw the rod away from you. Command your familiar/animal companion to ‘fetch’. Cast mage hand and activate rod. Keeps the party entertained for hours.

1 – Death from Within: Even after being swallowed whole, the intrepid adventurer can still help her companions. By simply locking an immovable rod in place within the swallower, you can arrest its movement. Pick a square occupied by the swallower. Until the rod is released from its locked position, the swallower may still move around provided that at least part of the swallower occupies that square at all times. The swallower can move the immovable rod with a successful strength check, as described above, but doing so deals 2d6 damage to the swallower. This damage cannot be prevented or reduced.
Also, don't forget: since the earth is rotating at almost 500 m/s, and the rod doesn't move, it would appear to go around the earth when placed, turning everything in a 10-foot-wide-band around the world into pink dust (over the course of a day). :smalltongue:

Also, @Dungeondelver: The whip isn't even necessary. Jump, press the button, flip up and over, press again, go higher, press, flip up and over, press again, go higher, ad infinitum.

Seriously, it can get insane. As a DM, I once created a floating continent which was suspended on bedrock which was suspended on four immovable rods. It took an extremely fine reading of RAW, though- it says it 'falls to the ground' from 8,000+ pounds, but it never says the button unpresses, so it could be interpreted to still hold in place once it falls. It also never says that it falls back to earth, just the ground- and there's ground above it. So, it 'falls' up, hits bedrock, stops, holds, 'falls' up, hits, stops, holds, 'falls'... see the pattern? I was DM so I could have just gone with fiat, but this made for a marginally more interesting setup.

[true_shinken]

YES

IT MUST BE DONE

+1 to this! Awesome idea.

[AslanCross]

Fighting with a rod as a weapon certainly makes sense. Fighting with immovable rods is awesome.

[ericgrau]

Many rods are already maces and while I couldn't tell how much of the price went to the cost of the mace, I could tell that if it was multiplied by 1.5 or 2 then that alone would cost more than the rod's list price. I'd allow it without any cost adjustment; it makes sense.

[Person_Man]

OK, basic bones of a line of Immovable Rod fighting feats is up. If you have time, go look (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9909194).

[Psyren]

Do you know which 3rd party sourcebook?

Masters of Arms (http://towercoda.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=15&Itemid=37) it looks like.


Does anyone have a link to a preview or a list of what it can actually do?

I saw one ability - it can move 20 ft. in any direction (even straight up) by jackknifing through the air and quickly activating the rod at the apex.

[Person_Man]

I Googled and couldn't find much on it either. However, I did find a preview for a Rod of Lordly Might Master. It's poorly done - but fortunately it has given me the idea for a Rod focused PrC, which I must now write.

[Sir Swindle89]

Also, I know there were several 1001 uses for an Immovable Rod threads out there, but I'm blocked at work right now. Can anyone copy/paste a list?

If you can give a list of 99 problems i can give a list of 99 uses for an immovable rod (even if a bitch is one:smallwink:)

[Chambers]

I would track the costs of the rod separately.

For example you could have a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend [3,000], and then a +1 Flaming Light Mace [8,305], total cost of 11,305gp. This way you can upgrade one component [Metamagic rod] without modifying the cost of the other component [Magic Mace].

[Draz74]

If the mace-weapon is enchanted, I'd probably tack on a trivial fee (1000 gp?) to combine the magic mace with the metamagic rod, just to make sure the gish who uses the same object both ways is "paying for" the fact that he doesn't have to juggle two objects (sheath! draw! sheath! draw!) all the time.

[The Glyphstone]

I'd be fine with it, and not even assess extra costs. When you enchant both ends of a double weapon, it doesn't charge a premium for the second side.

[Gorgondantess]

Honestly, I don't see why you can't attach a ball & chain to the end of the rod and just have a heavy flail.

[Boci]

I'd be fine with it, and not even assess extra costs. When you enchant both ends of a double weapon, it doesn't charge a premium for the second side.

That's because they count as two seperate weapons, but from a balance point I agree with you. You're using a suboptimal weapon in return for always holding a single metamagic rod. Not overpowered.

[The Glyphstone]

That's because they count as two seperate weapons, but from a balance point I agree with you. You're using a suboptimal weapon in return for always holding a single metamagic rod. Not overpowered.

That's what I was saying. Just like a double weapon is two separate weapons, a Mace + Metamagic rod would be two separate magic items that just happen to be connected, or in this case, occupying the same material.

[Godskook]

To reiterate my view from chat:

1.Yes, I'd allow it, at least on a probationary level.

2.It sets off my internal cheese-alarm. For now, I'm assuming that's a false-positive, but something sounds fishy.

3.I may or may not require the "two items one slot" pricing.

4.For rods that explicitly say "counts as a light mace" or something similar, the weapon can be augmented as normal, so ignore points 1-3.

[DungeonDelver]

I wouldn't add an extra cost. Maces aren't exactly the greatest weapons, and as a DM I'm inclined to reward creativity and flavor. So yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with just letting them enchant the rod as a magic weapon without adding costs, so long as there wasn't any way to combine the two separate magical effects.

[erikun]

Was making a gish when the idea of wielding and enchanting a metamagic rod as a light mace,
I have no problem with this. It's basically the same idea as a cleric using his shield as a holy symbol. If anything, the biggest problem will be losing it or finding another one - there are not many +5 Defending Light Mace of Persist Metamagic lying around, after all.


and adding a wand chamber to it,
This I would have more of a problem with, if only because (logically) the haft of the mace is your metamagic rod, and hollowing out the rod for a wand chamber would cause problems with the function of the rod. I have no problems with wand chambers in other objects, such as the shield, or hidden wand sleeves for the character.

You'd need to give a compelling way for a wand to be hidden inside a rod for me to allow it.

[ericgrau]

I agree light mace + rod is already paying for it both balance (both vs. damage output and vs. comparisons to pre-existing item) and fluff-wise by using a smaller weapon. Just noticed the wand chamber thing. That's stretching it a bit. I'd probably increase the normal cost for that, in addition to above fluff considerations.

[Fax Celestis]

I agree light mace + rod is already paying for it both balance (both vs. damage output and vs. comparisons to pre-existing item) and fluff-wise by using a smaller weapon. Just noticed the wand chamber thing. That's stretching it a bit. I'd probably increase the normal cost for that, in addition to above fluff considerations.

Beyond the cost of a wand chamber?

[Siosilvar]

You'd need to give a compelling way for a wand to be hidden inside a rod for me to allow it.

The MM rod part is the top half. The wand chamber's in the other half.

[true_shinken]

Beyond the cost of a wand chamber?

Yeah, instead of a 100 you'll have to pay... 200 gold! Mwahahaha! How will you ever afford that, Fax?!