extreme optimization.

[molten_dragon]

I'm currently playing in a fairly high-powered 3.5 campaign. We are all around 13th level, and the party consists of a warmage, a cleric, a malconvoker wizard, a greater stone golem, and a shadowcraft mage (me). Recently, we found a deck of many things. Two of us drew the knight card, so we now have two 4th level gnome fighters with us. My question is, is there any way to optimize these guys enough that they can keep up with our party? I kind of doubt orbit thought I'd ask. If it matters, they get 32 point buy and standard wbl for a level 4 character.

[TroubleBrewing]

Unless your DM is willing to make them Warblades instead of fighters, I can't think of a way.

Use them as expendable meat shields, I guess.

On a side note, why are they gnome fighters?

[Urpriest]

Ring of Reduce person lets them share your space. Then optimize them for Aid Another, and they'll be a very uncheesy form of nanobots.

[molten_dragon]

Unless your DM is willing to make them Warblades instead of fighters, I can't think of a way.

Use them as expendable meat shields, I guess.

On a side note, why are they gnome fighters?

the knight card specifies that they are your race, and we are both gnome.

[kestrel404]

Start of a killer gnome build? Aim for the Blade Bravo PrC?

[Keld Denar]

Well, you are an ScM. All of your Shadow Illusion'ed spells will have SR. That means that they qualify for Spell Immunity. Get a couple of pairs of Spellguard Rings (6000g a pair, CMage), and put them on your minions. Cast a Shadow Freezing Fog on some bad guys and send in your gnomie mop-up crew in to...mop up. They will be completely unimpeded by the fake cloud, yet there is a good chance your foes will be wrapped up in it.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Unless your DM is willing to make them Warblades instead of fighters, I can't think of a way.

Use them as expendable meat shields, I guess.

On a side note, why are they gnome fighters?

Or make them pseudo-Warblades by having them take Martial Study several times.

[gbprime]

Buff them and have them engage from range. If they can take a feat or class level that lets them activate magic devices, then you could have them operate wands for you. Otherwise, best magic arrows you have.

Keep them alive long enough while they participate and they'll quickly catch up to your level (minus 2, since they're kind of cohort-ish).

[faceroll]

A well optimized fighter with appropriate gear can easily out damage a warblade. Picking the right gear means you use magic items to circumvent fundamental flaws in the fighter class.

I would make them lancers on flying mounts. Quad damage is pretty baller.

[Seerow]

+1 for pushing them towards the melee killer gnome build. That one is pretty awesome.

Alternatively, get your DM to let you use my Fighter variant (see sig </shameless plug>)

[gorfnab]

You could build a gnomeish war wagon and have the two fighters drive/operate it. Basically one drive it while the other one fires the ballista.

[Incanur]

No matter what you do, characters with 4 hit dice really aren't going to matter that much in a 13th-level party. So don't worry about about their builds excessively. They'll probably die before you know it - especially in a high-powered game.

[Endarire]

Keep them out of combat and give them excellent social skills. Let them be your base/business managers.

Hopefully, they'll reach L6. Have 'em take Leadership and get a reasonable cohort, like Kalashtar Telepaths going for Thrallherd.

[Grelna the Blue]

Can their armor lock together to allow them to become the top and bottom of a well-nigh invincible four-armed battle mech?

No?

Then just max each of them out on Craft: Cook and Profession: Cook and give them Skill Focus (Craft: cook), big poofy white hats, and weaponized pots and pans. At least they can ensure the party is well fed.

Edit: ...and amused.

[Critical]

Get spell-storing weapons on them and profit?

[Ernir]

Use them as messengers, night guards, and squires. An ECL 4 character isn't going to contribute in combat in a group of optimized ECL 13s. But having someone to watch over your horses/zombie horde/battletitan squad while you go make history can be very handy.

Just make sure you treat them right, otherwise they might resent you, and the DM is going to have them find a way to inconvenience you. :smallbiggrin:

[Keld Denar]

Get spell-storing weapons on them and profit?

Expanding on this...you are an ScM...

Give them both Illusion Bane + Illusion Theft weapons (DMGII, reprinted in the MIC). Cast a high level Shadow Illusion emulating a big summon or big BC effect. Have your minions tap the summon or spell with their Theft weapon to store your uber powerful ScM illusion in it. Later, in a dangerous encounter, have them both activate their theft weapons to recast the effect. Triple spells per round for you for a VERY low cost.

[nolispe]

Purchase them a PaO in a nearby city if the DM allows it, PaO them (and they have Assume Supernatural ability) into Dusk Giants, boost their HD to ungodly levels, and use a restoration shuffle to make them whatever you need. Perhaps, then, they use PaO on themselves to become hatchling Phaerimm, restoration shuffle into sorcs, and win. What?

[molten_dragon]

Can their armor lock together to allow them to become the top and bottom of a well-nigh invincible four-armed battle mech?

No?

Then just max each of them out on Craft: Cook and Profession: Cook and give them Skill Focus (Craft: cook), big poofy white hats, and weaponized pots and pans. At least they can ensure the party is well fed.

Edit: ...and amused.

Well, we did consider just having them fight to the death for our amusement, but that seemed...uninspired.

I also had another fun idea.

Genesis is a conjuration (creation) spell, which means that I can mimic it with shadow illusion (as soon as I get level 8 spells). If I remember right, genesis lets you set the time traits on your demi-plane. One of the gnome fighters is male, and the other is female.

Gnome army anyone?

[molten_dragon]

Expanding on this...you are an ScM...

Give them both Illusion Bane + Illusion Theft weapons (DMGII, reprinted in the MIC). Cast a high level Shadow Illusion emulating a big summon or big BC effect. Have your minions tap the summon or spell with their Theft weapon to store your uber powerful ScM illusion in it. Later, in a dangerous encounter, have them both activate their theft weapons to recast the effect. Triple spells per round for you for a VERY low cost.

This is actually a really cool idea. Thanks.

[Keld Denar]

Better yet, if you have Residual Metamagic (what self-respecting ScM wouldn't?), you can fill both of your gnomie mooks weapons with the expenditure of 1 of your highest level slots + one 0th level slot. Its action economy AND efficient resource management!

[Godskook]

Buy 2 powerstones of Psychic Reformation(4 levels), which 1700gp each. The check to use them is DC 27. Buying them as a Dorje would be *FAR* more expensive(since you'd be paying nearly 5kgp just for the xp put into the dorje). Finding a manifester willing to cast the spell himself would be cheapest, but is less trust-worthy.

Regardless of the method, this grants you *full* control over their progression post-point-buy. Want them to be warblades? They can be warblades.

[faceroll]

Buy 2 powerstones of Psychic Reformation(4 levels), which 1700gp each. The check to use them is DC 27. Buying them as a Dorje would be *FAR* more expensive(since you'd be paying nearly 5kgp just for the xp put into the dorje). Finding a manifester willing to cast the spell himself would be cheapest, but is less trust-worthy.

Regardless of the method, this grants you *full* control over their progression post-point-buy. Want them to be warblades? They can be warblades.

Psychic Reformation only works for feats, skills, and powers (and with transparency, spells).

[Akal Saris]

Expanding on this...you are an ScM...

Give them both Illusion Bane + Illusion Theft weapons (DMGII, reprinted in the MIC). Cast a high level Shadow Illusion emulating a big summon or big BC effect. Have your minions tap the summon or spell with their Theft weapon to store your uber powerful ScM illusion in it. Later, in a dangerous encounter, have them both activate their theft weapons to recast the effect. Triple spells per round for you for a VERY low cost.

Awesome idea!

More ideas for the ScM:
Make the gnome fighters part of your illusions whenever possible, like the illusion of transforming one into a dire wolverine, or the illusion of their weapon turning vorpal when you cast a spell to buff them.

The malconvoker can use them along with Benign Transposition and his summoned monsters - have the gnome fighter run somewhere, then quickened benign transposition the gnome with a summoned monster, and on its turn the monster can do its full attack.

I had a similar experience as an Alienist who got a free human fighter - I used mine as an archer to add a piddly amount of damage every now and then.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Well, we did consider just having them fight to the death for our amusement, but that seemed...uninspired.

I also had another fun idea.

Genesis is a conjuration (creation) spell, which means that I can mimic it with shadow illusion (as soon as I get level 8 spells). If I remember right, genesis lets you set the time traits on your demi-plane. One of the gnome fighters is male, and the other is female.

Gnome army anyone?

I totally thought that you were going the direction of a hyperbolic time chamber here. Which also might or might not result in fighting to the death. It'd be win-win situation!

Oo! Further expanding on this idea, put them in this plane and every now and then plane shift some baddies in for your gnomes to fight; this way you can filter in CR appropriate challenges that are tailored to their strengths.

[herrhauptmann]

How about Spellblade Tennis? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172671)