The Big-T [3.5]

[Godskook]

Ok, its fairly well known that the Tarrasque isn't a CR 20 threat to any reasonably well-played party. My question is, what specifically, would it take to make him an overwhelming encounter for pre-17 PCs.

So far I got:

1.Can't be pinged to death by out-of-range targets:
-Response to incorporeal/ethereal
-Response to flight/swim/burrow
-Touch-AC
-Freedom of Movement

2.Can't be cheap-killed by an alternate win-condition:
-Ability damage
-Negative Levels
-[Mind-Affecting]

3.Action economy
-As a 1-on-many critter, the Big-T needs the ability to respond to threats more frequently than 1 turn/round

4.Battlefield control issues
-Fogs(solid fog specifically)
-force effects

Now, I'm not trying to determine 'fixes' for him just yet, but just to compile a list of "issues" a more proper version of the Big-T wouldn't have. Assume that PCs are played in the ToS tiers 3 or 2, and that ToS is a fair estimation of what 'balance' looks like.

[Endarire]

Tarrasque can't fly. Wizard13 or Druid15 casts reverse gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reversegravity.htm). Tarrasque can't move and may take falling damage after his DR is factored in.

[Callista]

With that +29 to Reflex, he'll just dig his claws into the ground and hold on to stop himself from falling upward.

[Keld Denar]

Tarrasque done right!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/Bauglir/Face%20Sprites/FlyingTarrasque.jpg

In all seriousness, repicking his feats goes a long way. Take some Shape Soulmeld feats and some Open Chakra feats and you can easily give him limited flight. Chrystal Helm, IIRC, would also give him the ability to deal with Allips, his true bane.

[Greenish]

Tarrasque isn't an ordinary monster, and shouldn't be used as such.

Tarrasque should only be used in a wrestling match. :smallwink:

[Critical]

Use this tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9148817&postcount=1307)? Though, it's meant for players, I think that'd make a decent CR 20 encounter. :smallbiggrin:

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC there was the general consensus that the Tarrasque could be used as Intended against a APL 13.

The Gangrath (MM V) is a better option IMO.

That said I may be misunderstanding the purpose of the thread and in that case disregard my post:smallredface:

[Starbuck_II]

Tarrasque can't fly. Wizard13 or Druid15 casts reverse gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reversegravity.htm). Tarrasque can't move and may take falling damage after his DR is factored in.

DR doesn't apply to non-weapon attacks (natural and improved weapons are weapons).

So DR can't help versus falling sadly.

[Godskook]

IIRC there was the general consensus that the Tarrasque could be used as Intended against a APL 13.

That's a useful number. Any chance you know a source for it?


The Gangrath (MM V) is a better option IMO.

I'll check it out.


That said I may be misunderstanding the purpose of the thread and in that case disregard my post:smallredface:

Point of the thread is as a preparatory start to homebrewing a fix that still keeps the original's flavor the way I want it. Said fix is an important part of my homebrewed setting, so I want to make sure he lives up to his legends.

[Runestar]

Believe it or not, I think its damage needs to be reduced, or at least spread out. When it can 1-shot any PC on a full-attack, they would then have every incentive to stay out of melee (which then leads to all the problems like hovering out of range etc).

That's why I concur the gangrath makes for a more engaging fight, as it can potentially attack the entire party at the same time, with enough damage to make them feel threatened, but not enough to take them out of the game.

If you want a cr17 fight, consider the Dalmosh (MM5) instead. Alternatively, substitute with a appropriate-cr dragon.

[Godskook]

Believe it or not, I think its damage needs to be reduced, or at least spread out. When it can 1-shot any PC on a full-attack, they would then have every incentive to stay out of melee (which then leads to all the problems like hovering out of range etc).

While this is an interesting point, "strengths are weaknesses" isn't what I'm worried about in this project. In the campaign I'm running, it took thousands of pre-14 ECL characters to put him down, so "can 1-shot multiple low-level PCs" is a plus.


That's why I concur the gangrath makes for a more engaging fight, as it can potentially attack the entire party at the same time, with enough damage to make them feel threatened, but not enough to take them out of the game.

Honestly, he seems like a lesser predator to the Big-T, and an easier kill for PCs, clocking in at roughly half the HP, no regen. I mean, 500 damage doesn't seem like that much when a valorous lance, power-attack'ed for full does +120 damage. Stack on Leading the Charge, and you've got +150, from cheap magic items. Admittedly, the at-will swift-action SoD is new(and probably a good portion of his strength, but that doesn't fit the flavor I'm going for anyway.

Which reminds me that the Big-T needs better touch-AC if he's going to survive long.


If you want a cr17 fight, consider the Dalmosh (MM5) instead. Alternatively, substitute with a appropriate-cr dragon.

Overwhelming = ECL + 4, and since I said "pre-17", that means ECL+4 ~= CR 20 is what I'm shooting for.

[faceroll]

I would change the rules for reflective carapace to include any ranged touch attacks (so lots of acid arrows or orbs couldn't kill him), and to reflect ANY spell that fails to overcome SR. That way you can't reliably caster spam from range with most effects without some serious risk to the caster. That also makes it so the tarrasque can stay a big dumb brute without resorting to stuff like ToB or incarnum.


IIRC there was the general consensus that the Tarrasque could be used as Intended against a APL 13.

I had a level 13 telepath build that can dominate a tarrasque with no risk to himself. And it wasn't like he was specially built to take out tarrasques. Just an optimized telepath build.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That's a useful number. Any chance you know a source for it?

Not off-hand sorry

I'll check it out.

It is interesting monsters, have a few interesting abilities, such as a prismatic spray "breath weapon" (fluff wise it is ray but IIRC crunch-wise it works as a breath weapon

Point of the thread is as a preparatory start to homebrewing a fix that still keeps the original's flavor the way I want it. Said fix is an important part of my homebrewed setting, so I want to make sure he lives up to his legends.
Then I wasn't off with my suggestions:smallsmile:


Yay for quotes and bolding :smalltongue:

[JeminiZero]

In all seriousness, repicking his feats goes a long way. Take some Shape Soulmeld feats and some Open Chakra feats and you can easily give him limited flight. Chrystal Helm, IIRC, would also give him the ability to deal with Allips, his true bane.

You can in fact give him full flight with 3 feats [Dragontouched, Dragon Wings, Improved Dragon Wings], but the first 2 of the 3 have to be taken on level 1 or something, so you might need to include a flaw (like Shaky) to pull it off.

Mind Affecting can be hedged out to a limited extent by the Planar Ward soulmeld, which functions similiar to Protection Against Evil. Although IIRC its a head meld, and so might compete with the Crystal Helm for that slot.

Edit: OK, so Planar Ward occupies the throat slot, so its compatible with Crystal Mask.

And for plowing through lesser armies, there's always Great Cleave.

[*.*.*.*]

Mind Affecting can be hedged

Willing deformity and deformity[madness] also works

[Alleran]

One way of making an individual Tarrasque nastier (rather than improve the creature as a whole) is to use a True Mind Switch to transplant the brain of a 17th level Psionic character (or a 17th level caster, depending on how you do it) into the body. I did that for the PCs once - the BBEG had always seemed human (custom magic item that blocked True Seeing spells and so on) due to polymorphing, so when he went One Winged Angel and took on his Tarrasque form, it was a suitably "we're boned" moment.

[Godskook]

One way of making an individual Tarrasque nastier (rather than improve the creature as a whole) is to use a True Mind Switch to transplant the brain of a 17th level Psionic character (or a 17th level caster, depending on how you do it) into the body. I did that for the PCs once - the BBEG had always seemed human (custom magic item that blocked True Seeing spells and so on) due to polymorphing, so when he went One Winged Angel and took on his Tarrasque form, it was a suitably "we're boned" moment.

While hilarious, this will not(currently) fit the setting. (I might use it should mortal NPCs ever rise to those power levels though)

[Anxe]

One way of making an individual Tarrasque nastier (rather than improve the creature as a whole) is to use a True Mind Switch to transplant the brain of a 17th level Psionic character (or a 17th level caster, depending on how you do it) into the body. I did that for the PCs once - the BBEG had always seemed human (custom magic item that blocked True Seeing spells and so on) due to polymorphing, so when he went One Winged Angel and took on his Tarrasque form, it was a suitably "we're boned" moment.

Somewhere in your world there is a Tarrasque mind in the body of a weakling Psion. That body sleeps for most of the year and when it wakes up it feels very confused.

[LordBlades]

Another big weakness of the tarrasque IMHO is that it's only offense relies on some pretty unimpressive melee attacks (average damage is only 112.5 assuming they all hit).

Melee attacks are ridiculously easy to negate at high level either by high AC or concealment/etherealness/incorporealness/invisiblity/mirror image/etc.

I really don't think a non spellcasting, non-SLA opponent can make a credible high level threat.

[Akal Saris]

Tarrasque done right!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/Bauglir/Face%20Sprites/FlyingTarrasque.jpg

In all seriousness, repicking his feats goes a long way. Take some Shape Soulmeld feats and some Open Chakra feats and you can easily give him limited flight. Chrystal Helm, IIRC, would also give him the ability to deal with Allips, his true bane.

Damn it Keld! Somebody always beats me to posting that pic!!!

[Alleran]

Somewhere in your world there is a Tarrasque mind in the body of a weakling Psion. That body sleeps for most of the year and when it wakes up it feels very confused.
The players met it earlier in the campaign. It was locked away in a mental asylum as a "once-great Psion whose mind had been destroyed by too much strain" currently being cared for by the monks and priests of the place. They didn't think much of it at the time.

[Godskook]

Another big weakness of the tarrasque IMHO is that it's only offense relies on some pretty unimpressive melee attacks (average damage is only 112.5 assuming they all hit).

Melee attacks are ridiculously easy to negate at high level either by high AC or concealment/etherealness/incorporealness/invisiblity/mirror image/etc.

I really don't think a non spellcasting, non-SLA opponent can make a credible high level threat.

Believe it or not, I think its damage needs to be reduced, or at least spread out. When it can 1-shot any PC on a full-attack, they would then have every incentive to stay out of melee (which then leads to all the problems like hovering out of range etc).

This is an amusing statement, there, LordBlades. However, I think you're forgetting about the creature's power attack feat(comes stock), combined with his insane BAB from RHD.

[LordBlades]

This is an amusing statement, there, LordBlades. However, I think you're forgetting about the creature's power attack feat(comes stock), combined with his insane BAB from RHD.

Tarrasque's total attack bonus is +57, so you need at least 77 AC for it to only hit on a natural 20. Any decently optimzied gish/druid/battle cleric can bypass that figure with ease by lvl 20.

Take the typical fighter/wizard/abjurant champion: shapechange to Pit fiend provides a base AC of 40, +13 armor from greater luminous armor+7 natural from bite of the werebear, +9 shield from shield spell, +5 deflection from ring of prot, +5 unnamed from defending armor spikes=79 AC. Not to mention the huge pile of miss chance bufss you can stack on top of that.

[JaronK]

I like giving Big T a burrow speed and a destination, which must be protected. If the PCs disengage and fly above him, he'll just burrow for a while towards where he's going. If an Allip or similar gets near, he'll burrow. As such, they have to fight him more head on.

Giving him a breath weapon that's reflex save or be swallowed (basically, an inhale attack) with a decent range also helps. Also, try switching his feats to give him a few martial maneuvers... his initiator level is quite high due to his HD! Giving him Pounce helps too.

JaronK

[JeminiZero]

If an Allip or similar gets near, he'll burrow. As such, they have to fight him more head on.

Actually, since Allips are incorporeal, they can move through solid earth and strike burrowing Tarrasques, provided they have some means of detecting the thing (although the obvious drilling sound of a 100 ton beast digging through the earth might be more than enough).


Giving him a breath weapon that's reflex save or be swallowed (basically, an inhale attack) with a decent range also helps.

But that would invite comparisons to Transformers 2 Devastator! :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

Damn it Keld! Somebody always beats me to posting that pic!!!

I gotta beat SOMEONE...Greenish has been ninjaing me all day...

[krossbow]

Damn it Keld! Somebody always beats me to posting that pic!!!

Edit: Double damnit! late to the party with that pic it seems! >.<

[Godskook]

Tarrasque's total attack bonus is +57, so you need at least 77 AC for it to only hit on a natural 20. Any decently optimzied gish/druid/battle cleric can bypass that figure with ease by lvl 20.

Take the typical fighter/wizard/abjurant champion: shapechange to Pit fiend provides a base AC of 40, +13 armor from greater luminous armor+7 natural from bite of the werebear, +9 shield from shield spell, +5 deflection from ring of prot, +5 unnamed from defending armor spikes=79 AC. Not to mention the huge pile of miss chance bufss you can stack on top of that.

1.ToS(referenced in the OP) bans all non-specific polymorph spells, which should be the assumed standard for this thread.

2.Reference to a 9th level spell does nothing to further the current topic of pre-17 play.

[LordBlades]

1.ToS(referenced in the OP) bans all non-specific polymorph spells, which should be the assumed standard for this thread.

2.Reference to a 9th level spell does nothing to further the current topic of pre-17 play.

My bad, missed the ToS line in the OP's post. Sorry.

[Runestar]

Tarrasque's total attack bonus is +57, so you need at least 77 AC for it to only hit on a natural 20. Any decently optimzied gish/druid/battle cleric can bypass that figure with ease by lvl 20.

I suppose you and I differ in terms of what "decently optimized" entails. Normal PCs should average around AC40+ (eg: base10, +13 AC, +3dex, +7shield, +5NA, +5deflection for fighter) at that lv, so a tarrasque can safely PA for at least 15 and still hit on a 2 or greater. This would push its average damage up to 200, not including crits.

Of course, I am not factoring in other effects like expertise, defending weapons or spells since they differ from game to game.

However, given its low will save and reliance on full-attacks, it is extremely vulnerable to slow (heightened), which would limit it to just 1 attack/round at 50 damage. Something to bear in mind?

That said, I am a fan of the monster of legend template. And just because I can, the dungeonbred template to make it gargantuan (and free endurance feat for steadfast determination). :smallcool:

[LordBlades]

I suppose you and I differ in terms of what "decently optimized" entails. Normal PCs should average around AC40+ (eg: base10, +13 AC, +3dex, +7shield, +5NA, +5deflection for fighter) at that lv, so a tarrasque can safely PA for at least 15 and still hit on a 2 or greater. This would push its average damage up to 200, not including crits.


What I meant by 'decently optimzied' was 'decently optimzied for what a cleric/druid/wizard can do'. It can get much worse with those classes:smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I guess for a non spellcasting, non-polymorphed frontliner +57 is more than enough to hit.

[Runestar]

What I meant by 'decently optimzied' was 'decently optimzied for what a cleric/druid/wizard can do'. It can get much worse with those classes

Please, I am sure you can let a wizard strut around with AC10 at lv20 and still find some way to not let him get hit. :smallamused:

So back to the OP's question, I guess the trick is to create a scenario where the PCs have to land and engage the tarrasque on its terms. It could be in an underground cavern where mobility is limited, or perhaps the tarrasque has spellcaster support of its own? I believe an issue of dragon mentioned something about a cult worshiping it? :smallsmile:

[dsmiles]

At lower than 17 does the party have access to wish or miracle (they shouldn't unless there's a "magic-mart" :smallyuk:)? If not, the Tarrasque can just keep on coming back to haunt them, until they do.

[Myth]

Umm Arcane Reach + Irresistable Dance can take make it worthless. You do have to beat it's SR but it's doable.

[JaronK]

Actually, since Allips are incorporeal, they can move through solid earth and strike burrowing Tarrasques, provided they have some means of detecting the thing (although the obvious drilling sound of a 100 ton beast digging through the earth might be more than enough).

He'll have to be fast enough, but IIRC even incorporeals can only go through so much matter (5' I think?) before they're stopped.


But that would invite comparisons to Transformers 2 Devastator! :smalltongue:

Yes, but big T doesn't have wrecking ball truck nuts, so it'll be fine.


Please, I am sure you can let a wizard strut around with AC10 at lv20 and still find some way to not let him get hit.

Mirror Image + floating mini fortress (tiny tower on a Greater Floating Disk made of Obdurium) is my usual method when we get near that level. My AC is usually in the neighborhood of 20 though, simply due to Dex. AC isn't really worth going for near level 20, when miss chances become a far more important thing.

JaronK

[Godskook]

Ok, so what I'm getting here is that:

No, there isn't anything explicit I'm missing, for the most part. If I fix the things currently listed in the first post, the Big-T would be otherwise fine, with maybe minor tweeks.

[DungeonDelver]

His biggest weakness is that he's a big bruiser in a world where everybody else his power level has magic in the form of SLAs or outright spellcasting.

He also can't fight at range beyond his reach, which is also a problem.

[Godskook]

His biggest weakness is that he's a big bruiser in a world where everybody else his power level has magic in the form of SLAs or outright spellcasting.

Are you referencing something glaring and specific?


He also can't fight at range beyond his reach, which is also a problem.

Explicitly already noted.

[DungeonDelver]

I suppose what I meant was that he's a big bruiser and that's all he is. He can't close distance on anyone, he can't fight at range, he's like the Monk. Incredibly good at staying alive, and that's pretty much it.

In order to keep him the same way (a big bruiser), and to keep him viable, you have to deal with the things that can end the encounter prematurely. Give him a few immunities and resistances that eliminate problem 'I Win' spells. Give his damage a huge boost so that the rare swipes he can take really hurt. Don't be afraid to cheat with him and make him nearly impossible to kill. PCs can take care of situations far more powerful than they're relaly supposed to.

[Godskook]

I suppose what I meant was that he's a big bruiser and that's all he is. He can't close distance on anyone, he can't fight at range, he's like the Monk. Incredibly good at staying alive, and that's pretty much it.

In order to keep him the same way (a big bruiser), and to keep him viable, you have to deal with the things that can end the encounter prematurely. Give him a few immunities and resistances that eliminate problem 'I Win' spells. Give his damage a huge boost so that the rare swipes he can take really hurt. Don't be afraid to cheat with him and make him nearly impossible to kill. PCs can take care of situations far more powerful than they're relaly supposed to.

1.Can you be specific about what he's lacking in?

2.I'm not going to cheat with him. I'm going to homebrew him up, and then put so many warning signs down that I won't feel bad when he TPKs the PCs. If they survive, fine. If they defeat him, I'll applaud their ingenuity. But, currently, I'm in step 1 of the multistep process, and step 1 is about rooting out his weaknesses. If I do this in an abstract and specific way("too weak to ability damage" rather than "dies to Allips"), it gives me freedom in how I homebrew the upgrades *and* creates a path for others to follow if they want to upgrade him but don't like the result I came to.

[LordBlades]

1.Can you be specific about what he's lacking in?




I think he means that the tarrasque is a melee only monster. He relies on getting into melee and staying there to do damage. If he can't do that, then he's just target paractice.

However, he lacks counters to many of the tactics smart people use to discourage melee when it's advantabgeous for them to do so. You've correctly identified part of those in your initial post(fly/burrow/etc). What remains is the problem of no save, no SR BFC spells (the likes of Solid Fog, Wall of Force, Forcecage etc.)

[JeminiZero]

("too weak to ability damage" rather than "dies to Allips")

Nitpick: Bit T is already immune to Ability Damage. It is Ability Drain that does him in.

[DungeonDelver]

I can't make it more specific than this;

The way the Tarrasque fights doesn't scale to the level you're supposed to fight him. By the time the players are supposed to be fighting him, they're dancing circles around him. His tactics and combat abilities are practically identical to a Dire Bear. He doesn't work very well at that level for the same reason the monk and fighter don't. He's a melee combatant in a magic world.

Give him a breath weapon or flight. Give him some spell-like abilities. Slap on a few more immunities so that he doesn't get mind controlled or negative energy drained into oblivion.

I can't get any more specific than that.

[Runestar]

Another would be to just lock him in a 10x10 room with the PCs. With him occupying the middle 6x6 squares, he is going to threaten every corner, so there is nowhere the players can run. This should help simplify the encounter into an all-out slugfest, the way it should be (if the tarrasque is to shine). :smallamused:

Then you just need to rework its feats and you would be good to go.

Of course, you can also take this opportunity to give it extra attacks (robilar's gambit, rend, rapidstrike) and spread them amongst the various players so they all don't feel left out.

[Godskook]

Give him a breath weapon or flight. Give him some spell-like abilities. Slap on a few more immunities so that he doesn't get mind controlled or negative energy drained into oblivion.

My version is getting a breath weapon, but as said, that's step 2.

(Step 3, incidently is "???")


However, he lacks counters to many of the tactics smart people use to discourage melee when it's advantabgeous for them to do so. You've correctly identified part of those in your initial post(fly/burrow/etc). What remains is the problem of no save, no SR BFC spells (the likes of Solid Fog, Wall of Force, Forcecage etc.)

This is a most helpful paragraph, LordBlades, thank you. First post has been updated.

[DungeonDelver]

I'd go with a nice hefty breath weapon, borrowed from an appropriately-leveled dragon. Sonic damage cone, con-based fortitude save for half damage, deafens on a failed save. Tarrasque rears back and lets out a mighty roar that shatters stone and cracks steel. Let him use it every 1d4 rounds, trying to get as many targets in the range as possible.

It keeps the breath weapon within reason of the monster's established flavor while giving him something to do when he's not fighting in melee.

[Myth]

DungeonDelver
His biggest weakness is that he's a big bruiser in a world where everybody else his power level has magic in the form of SLAs or outright spellcasting.
Are you referencing something glaring and specific?

Well it's simple really. A Planetar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm) is CR 16. It has superb SLAs, casts as a Cleric 17, it has flight and a bunch of other things. A level 16 party will be much more challenged by this than by Big T.

[Runestar]

Well it's simple really. A Planetar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm) is CR 16. It has superb SLAs, casts as a Cleric 17, it has flight and a bunch of other things. A level 16 party will be much more challenged by this than by Big T.

It doesn't really have much hp, though its regeneration will be a hassle to overcome. A round of full-attacks from a fighter can easily disable it. I actually find it over-designed, as it would not have the opportunity to make effective use of both its spellcasting and SLAs.

What irritates me is that it is just a cleric with wings, as it isn't going to have much incentive to wade into combat ever (despite its entry stating the opposite). Just one of the realities of high lv combat, I suppose.

What can we do to make it more effective in melee? I really like Zargon from Elder Evils and Gerivar from MM3 and feel that melee should play a larger role at higher lvs. :smallmad:

[DungeonDelver]

What can we do to make it more effective in melee? I really like Zargon from Elder Evils and Gerivar from MM3 and feel that melee should play a larger role at higher lvs. :smallmad:

THIS

High level D&D play is not built to deal with melee. It should be, but it isn't. Monsters that are supposed to be tough and hard to kill wind up being trivial.

This isn't even an optimization problem. Items and spells that grant flight, spider-climb, etc, etc, become very commonplace. By the time level what, 15 rolls around, everyone but melee specialists are no longer in danger from a melee creature.

[Myth]

For melee i'd use an Astral Deva with a few more outsider HD. That stunning is a pain.

Also, casting as a Cleric can easily turn the Planetar in to a monster with a few buffing spells. A full attack from a fighter won't do much good since he won't be able to reliably survive to get close enough. He can't get the jump on the Planetar with Detect Evil, See Invis and True Seeing at will and castable as a free action.

[Runestar]

Also, casting as a Cleric can easily turn the Planetar in to a monster with a few buffing spells. A full attack from a fighter won't do much good since he won't be able to reliably survive to get close enough. He can't get the jump on the Planetar with Detect Evil, See Invis and True Seeing at will and castable as a free action.

I confess to not having much experience with higher level play, but is there ever a scenario with the planetar that won't boil down to:

Prior to battle: Cast longer duration buffs.
1) Planetar casts SM9 to bring in 1d4+1 mooks to clog up the battlefield/provide battlefield control.
2) Hangs back or flies out of range while pelting the PCs with implosion

Is there ever a time when it has a reason to actually engage in melee? Or is that greatsword purely for show?

I looked up the 4e conversion of that fallen planetar npc in elder evils and you know what they did? He has just a basic sword attack and some ability which heals allies on a crit. That's it! No spells or magical support whatsoever. Just a bruiser, plain and simple. :smallredface:

Maybe that's just that. We must Tob'ize the higher lv monsters! Start by replacing their SLAs with maneuvers? :smalltongue:

[true_shinken]

I gotta beat SOMEONE...Greenish has been ninjaing me all day...

Tell me about it! He has been swordsaging me ever since I first posted in this forums!

[Myth]

I confess to not having much experience with higher level play, but is there ever a scenario with the planetar that won't boil down to:

Prior to battle: Cast longer duration buffs.
1) Planetar casts SM9 to bring in 1d4+1 mooks to clog up the battlefield/provide battlefield control.
2) Hangs back or flies out of range while pelting the PCs with implosion

Is there ever a time when it has a reason to actually engage in melee? Or is that greatsword purely for show?

I looked up the 4e conversion of that fallen planetar npc in elder evils and you know what they did? He has just a basic sword attack and some ability which heals allies on a crit. That's it! No spells or magical support whatsoever. Just a bruiser, plain and simple. :smallredface:

Maybe that's just that. We must Tob'ize the higher lv monsters! Start by replacing their SLAs with maneuvers? :smalltongue:

Err, so long as it's buffed with the good stuff out of that Cleric list (so don't use the preset list in the MM) it can go toe to toe with a level 16 fighter class.

Summon Monster 9 does not bring in mooks, it can bring in a Celestial Rock. Check out it's grapple score and full attack, that thing is not trivial. It will make your life very hard for 10 rounds.

Bear in mind that the Planetar possesses great attack bonuses. With buffs it can get ridiculous. Do you know what happens with ridiculous attack bonuses? They get converted to damage with Power Attack. It can one-shot your fighter with a full attack if it wants to (ECL 16 remember?). It also has SR 30 so most of the time casters it's CR will have a high chance of not doing anything (a Factotum can pierce it but not most other casters).

Also it will probably open the combat with Dictum. CL 17 means that everyone will be slowed and deafened. So your Fighter will have an ever harder time to pull of a full attack. After the slow effect the Planetar can indeed fly down and skewer him in one round.

[NineThePuma]

Quietly slap the Paragon Creature template onto it. 18 Int is much nicer.

[kestrel404]

My fix for the Tarrasque:
Frightful Presence becomes Ex
Add:
Burrow speed of 10' (this means it takes 2-3 rounds to get underground by burrowing, and even then it leaves a large tunnel behind, so it can't escape combat this way)
Breath Weapon(Ex): 24d4 sonic in a 70' cone.
Throw Boulder(Ex): Tarrasque rips a huge chunk of earth out of the ground and hurls it at a single target, range increment is 100', 20d6 damage and knocks target prone if they fail a DC 32 fortitude save. Flying targets who fail this save fall for a full round and if they are still in the air after that they may attempt a DC 15 reflex save to stop falling.
Generate Antimagic Bubble(Ex): When the Tarrasque claims new territory, it chooses a spot at the edge of its old territory and creates a caern (mound of rocks/boulders). It then claims its new territory by attaching a antimagic bubble anchor to this caern - the details of how it does so are unknown, but it is known that it takes at least 72 hours and one of the stones within such a caern must be a geode (usually one of the stones near the center of the caern), and that cracking open this geode destroys the anti-magic field. The zone of anit-magic extends for 1 mile around the caern, and the effective caster level of the antimagic field is equal to the Tarrasque's HD. The Tarrasque prefers not to leave the area it has claimed as territory, but can be goaded into doing so. Tarrasques can occasionally be found digging large pits looking for geodes - it is speculated that many dungeons and cave systems in terrains that would otherwise be unlikely to have caves get their start as Tarrasque holes.


Basically, big T gets a standard (if nasty) breath weapon, a ranged attack that can deal with flying creatures, and a plot-useful method of having them only show up in antimagic fields (where 99% of the things that can stop them are ineffective) without requiring that they always be fought without magic (which would render them impossible to kill). This makes them a non-trivial threat, gives them a means of really threatening large settlements (if it claims a large town as 'territory', that town becomes an anti-magic zone), and it also requires the PCs to plan out how they're going to deal with the Tarrasque.

[DungeonDelver]

20d4? I'd bring it closer to the dragons close to his CR, more along the lines about 10-16 d10 or so. I'd also make it require a fortitude save to avoid deafening. That would really make the spellcasters want to stay the heck away from it. Otherwise it limits their ability to cast spells with verbal components.

[Myth]

Pfeh, like a caster is afraid of deafening. Pretty of things to shapechange into that are immune to that.

[DungeonDelver]

True, but I still say the damage should be threatening. Sonic damage is pretty much the only type that no creature can really just shrug off. This is the Tarrasque, a legendary monster.

[true_shinken]

True, but I still say the damage should be threatening. Sonic damage is pretty much the only type that no creature can really just shrug off. This is the Tarrasque, a legendary monster.

No creature except slaads. :smallwink:

[DungeonDelver]

And this is my big problem with 3.5. It takes a ridiculous amount of effort to challenge sufficiently skilled players. Make it force damage, is anything immune to force damage?

[true_shinken]

And this is my big problem with 3.5. It takes a ridiculous amount of effort to challenge sufficiently skilled players. Make it force damage, is anything immune to force damage?

Force dragons.

Only choice to completely avoid immunity is to make it untyped, like a Warlock's eldritch blast. Call it the 'raw energies or creation' or something like that.
Or just say 'it's fire. it's also so hot that it ignores immunities'. We even have a precedent - hellfire works just like that.

[DungeonDelver]

And that's my point with 3.5. You can't challenge sufficiently skilled players without being Batman yourself.

[true_shinken]

And that's my point with 3.5. You can't challenge sufficiently skilled players without being Batman yourself.

Nah, not really. You just need a gentleman's agreement and most systems require one.

[DungeonDelver]

Yeah, I know. I'm just saying that the means to be incredibly hard to challenge really shouldn't be there at all.

[Prime32]

Force dragons.However, these are the only things in existence immune to force damage, and as even a wyrmling is CR 17 they're unlikely to come up in the same context as a tarrasque anyway.

[true_shinken]

However, these are the only things in existence immune to force damage, and as even a wyrmling is CR 17 they're unlikely to come up in the same context as a tarrasque anyway.

A wyrmling force dragon is CR 13. Also, at 20HD, they are good targets for polymorph.
But yes, they are rare.

[Jyokage]

I've always preferred my Big T with the Multiheaded and Monster of Legend Templates. But that might be due to my inborn love of book keeping and 2 hour long combats. I find that the old axiom of "Action Economy is Vital!" is doubly true for big walking targets like Big T. That being said, in order of importance:

1) Long Range Viability - It's already been said, but Big T needs some way of attacking at range. (I normally make him have clouds of symbiotic flying monsters that subsist off of his skin flakes and the random bugs that live in his carapace. Think the little birds who perch on Rhinos).

2) Action economy - Multiheaded takes care of this, although their are all kinds of of ways as well.
(Semi-Related) Honestly, why should something that huge get to attack only one small square? I make all his attacks AOE's with a reflex save to avoid damage if you aren't the main target of the attack.

3) Defenses - For something Darn near unkillable...he just really isn't. I've never quite hit the right fix for this though.

Anyways, I hope this helps. I'll be watching this thread with interest.

[faceroll]

Who cares if slaads are immune to sonic? They're almost all melee bruisers; Big T will great cleave through them. And every round the wizard stays in slaad morph is one less round he's a chronotryn or choker.

For solid fog, I have a house rule where anything that is longer or taller than the area of solid fog simply treats it as difficult terrain.

[Godskook]

Phase 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178893) has begun in earnest, and anyone wanting to follow the creation of renewed Big-T can follow it there. Feel free to keep discussion going here if you can think of new 'weaknesses' in the Beast's defenses.

[Defiant]

Ok, its fairly well known that the Tarrasque isn't a CR 20 threat to any reasonably well-played party. My question is, what specifically, would it take to make him an overwhelming encounter for pre-17 PCs.

The Tarrasque is impossible to defeat for any pre-level-17 PC party. You need a wish spell to keep it dead once you kill it.

[Prime32]

The Tarrasque is impossible to defeat for any pre-level-17 PC party. You need a wish spell to keep it dead once you kill it.*cough* scrolls *cough*

[true_shinken]

Who cares if slaads are immune to sonic? They're almost all melee bruisers; Big T will great cleave through them. And every round the wizard stays in slaad morph is one less round he's a chronotryn or choker.

You really think you can great cleave through a polymorphed wizard? really?

[Dusk Eclipse]

A wish scroll isn't so difficult to get it cost about 28K which if all members of the party dip in, is not so much.

Besides there are other ways to get wishes.... Planar Binding an Efreeti and wishing for the tarrasque to stay death

[Godskook]

The Tarrasque is impossible to defeat for any pre-level-17 PC party. You need a wish spell to keep it dead once you kill it.

Just cause a monster can't be "killed", doesn't make it "threatening". Wolverine learns this lesson every time he fights Magneto. Juggernaut learns this lesson every time he forgets to put his helmet on before picking on his step-brother.

[faceroll]

You really think you can great cleave through a polymorphed wizard? really?

Reasons you are wrong:
1. Polymorph does little for you with regards to energy attacks.
2. Taking the form of a slaad, in virtually any situation, is extremely suboptimal.
3. The spell you are looking for is Shapechange, not polymorph.
4. The wizard can gain immunity to breath weapons/energy damage through a variety of alternate spells.
5. Even if the wizard decided to use shapechange to be a slaad for energy damage immunity, that is better for the tarrasque, as the wizard is not using a form that gets extra actions, like a chronotryn or choker.
6. The party, as they are below level 17, do not have access to level 9 spells.
7. The only relevant way a slaad shows up in battle with a Tarrasque is either through summoning or calling. And then that's a waste of actions/resources because slaad are frail and the tarrasque cleaves through them.

[true_shinken]

Reasons you are wrong
None of that is a reason why tarrasque could cleave through a polymorphed wizard, really. If said wizard doesn't have a contingency, abrupt jaunt, miss chance or crazy high ac, something is very wrong.
But I realize I was worng about polymorph. I'll have to have a word with the chameleon on my campaign.

[faceroll]

None of that is a reason why tarrasque could cleave through a polymorphed wizard, really. If said wizard doesn't have a contingency, abrupt jaunt, miss chance or crazy high ac, something is very wrong.
But I realize I was worng about polymorph. I'll have to have a word with the chameleon on my campaign.

I never said anything about polymorphed wizards. That was all you.

[true_shinken]

I never said anything about polymorphed wizards. That was all you.
Yeah, and then you said I was wrong. Just check here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9923662&postcount=75).

[faceroll]

Yeah, and then you said I was wrong. Just check here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9923662&postcount=75).

I didn't realize you were houseruling polymorph, so I guess it makes you orthogonally wrong.

[true_shinken]

I didn't realize you were houseruling polymorph, so I guess it makes you orthogonally wrong.

Oh, now I see. You were talking about actual slaads and the tarrasque would be easily able to cleave through them. I admit it, I was wrong.

[Runestar]

Bear in mind that the Planetar possesses great attack bonuses. With buffs it can get ridiculous. Do you know what happens with ridiculous attack bonuses? They get converted to damage with Power Attack. It can one-shot your fighter with a full attack if it wants to (ECL 16 remember?). It also has SR 30 so most of the time casters it's CR will have a high chance of not doing anything (a Factotum can pierce it but not most other casters).

Also it will probably open the combat with Dictum. CL 17 means that everyone will be slowed and deafened. So your Fighter will have an ever harder time to pull of a full attack. After the slow effect the Planetar can indeed fly down and skewer him in one round.

What buffs? Divine power has no effect but +6str (since planetars already get full bab), divine favour is +3 to-hit/damage, what else are there?

This gives them +29/+24/+19 for 3d6+21. Respectable, but nothing extraordinary. I suppose you could give them the holy warrior reserve feat for another +9 damage on attacks?

Another problem is that with their short duration, it is not practical to expect they pre-buff prior to combat. If they cast it during a fight, they are using precious actions unless they quicken/persist them beforehand.

[Defiant]

*cough* scrolls *cough*


A wish scroll isn't so difficult to get it cost about 28K which if all members of the party dip in, is not so much.

Besides there are other ways to get wishes.... Planar Binding an Efreeti and wishing for the tarrasque to stay death

Unless your DM springs the tarrasque onto you, like what's happened to me in a level-13 party - I just said "guys, we can't win, run away" while the town was destroyed. Then you can't just leave to get a wish scroll. Well, you can, but you instantly fail the encounter (and any consequences).


Just cause a monster can't be "killed", doesn't make it "threatening". Wolverine learns this lesson every time he fights Magneto. Juggernaut learns this lesson every time he forgets to put his helmet on before picking on his step-brother.

It does if you need to kill it... like a tarrrasque destroying a town. "Help, save us!" - can't save them, everyone dies while you probably run away or run off to get a scroll, only to come back and find town destroyed and tarrasque gone (and probably gone from the campaign too).


Just don't spring tarrasque on players pre-17.





Hmmm...
In hindsight, though, same DM used an NPC to solve our Tarrasque problem (in a "I can make it go away, not even needing to hurt it - poof it's gone"), so maybe I'm not thinking about it the right way.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well by the fluff, I think the Tarrasque is supposed to be an end of campaign monster, the kind of monster that you hear only in legends and when they are waking up there are signs for their coming. The kind of fights that you need to know when they are going to happen and prepare accordingly. I know this is just an assumption, but I felt inclined to share it.

Incidentally this reminded me of a story I read once, about a party that beat the tarrasque several times in a row and then was TPK when all the resources ran out (neither the cleric nor the wizard had prepare Wish or miracle, so the tarrasque kept coming back).

[Runestar]

If my party is going to fight the tarrasque, I would make sure they have a scroll of wish/miracle beforehand. The cr should assume a fair fight, not "Oh crap, I don't have the resources necessary to ensure it stays dead, so I have to fight it a 2nd time".

[true_shinken]

If my party is going to fight the tarrasque, I would make sure they have a scroll of wish/miracle beforehand. The cr should assume a fair fight, not "Oh crap, I don't have the resources necessary to ensure it stays dead, so I have to fight it a 2nd time".

That's the kind of thinking that makes tarrasque a crappy monsters. His regeneration is part of what constitutes his cr and you are just taking that away.

[Godskook]

That's the kind of thinking that makes tarrasque a crappy monsters. His regeneration is part of what constitutes his cr and you are just taking that away.

Exactly. In the campaign I'm working on him for, there's not even casters that *high* on the material plane, let alone one that would be willing to scribe a scroll for someone else.

[Runestar]

That's the kind of thinking that makes tarrasque a crappy monsters. His regeneration is part of what constitutes his cr and you are just taking that away.

That's the kind of thinking which makes players not want to engage them properly and instead, do all sorts of funny things like trying to polymorph them into fish, draining their mental stats or simply flying past it. :smalltongue:

I feel it is just poor design when at lv20, a wizard actually loses xp for fighting one if he is expected to contribute a wish just to keep it down permanently. I guess it can make for a decent side-quest, but either way, how would you assign xp if your party fights it multiple times?

[FelixG]

Unless your DM springs the tarrasque onto you, like what's happened to me in a level-13 party - I just said "guys, we can't win, run away" while the town was destroyed. Then you can't just leave to get a wish scroll. Well, you can, but you instantly fail the encounter (and any consequences).


Actually if you know you cant win and run away, you are still beating the encounter and not failing. :smallbiggrin: Realizing that you are outgunned and making a tactical retreat =/= failure.

You have to think of it this way, even if you fight it the town will still get munched so you running away has no effect. (especially as it could run anyone who tried to get away down)

[true_shinken]

That's the kind of thinking which makes players not want to engage them properly and instead, do all sorts of funny things like trying to polymorph them into fish, draining their mental stats or simply flying past it. :smalltongue:

I feel it is just poor design when at lv20, a wizard actually loses xp for fighting one if he is expected to contribute a wish just to keep it down permanently. I guess it can make for a decent side-quest, but either way, how would you assign xp if your party fights it multiple times?
Oh, it's poor design alright. I don't think anyone is contesting that.
And they would only get XP once, of course. XP is about overcoming challenges and if the tarrasque is the kind of challenge that's only overcome when destroyed.

[Runestar]

At any rate, once you have it downed, the fighter can easily outpace its regeneration and keep it unconscious anyways, and there are no rules for fatigue from swinging your sword too many times. :smallbiggrin:

[faceroll]

Oh, now I see. You were talking about actual slaads and the tarrasque would be easily able to cleave through them. I admit it, I was wrong.

Dude, sorry for being a ****. I only use the internet when I am drinking.