[3.5] campaign world concept - money IS power

[Flickerdart]

A lot of people complain about characters being required to get a certain amount of GP to go with their XP, and even more people take umbrage when this holy GP/XP ratio is off in either direction (breaking WBL or low-wealth games). But think about it for a bit - why do we need TWO numbers that say what your abilities should be?
I've been thinking about running my next game under this premise. Money is literally power - the stopgap reason for this is that gold pieces are magic items in their own right, enchanted for "authenticity" by mints ages ago (maybe some kind of legend about melting down Moradin's golden hammer, which also implies that the PCs can recreate it if they get all the gold coins that exist, which would be a cool Epic campaign). A large amount of these enchantments in one place generates a lingering field that increases an individual's power. This is why lieutenants will always be tougher fights than the average grunt - their payroll is simply bigger. Exchanging gold for magic items retains this field, because the magic item is just as magical as the amount of gold handed over for it (no "sells for half" anymore, because they're literally equivalent values now, crafting will have to be abolished unless someone can think of how to fix this). This also has the advantage of fixing Wall of Iron + Fabricate combos, because nobody is going to give away their magical power-gold for non-magical metals. All mundane items are now sold only for silver pieces, which never trade up to gold. Gold contributes to the rate at which the PCs level, and the silver which they get for selling the 50 Small chain shirts that you gave to the goblins they fought last week is a bonus that they can use to buy torches.

Now, what would the logical consequences of this be in the world? I've thought of a few.
1) Barter economy means you're a schmuck. Feudal lords can no longer live off their serfs because the serfs don't produce any magical gold. They're forced to hire adventurers who will raid ancient dungeons and come back with magic trinkets, making adventuring a profession that isn't just for bored lunatics anymore.
2) Dragons grow in power due to their hoard, not their age. Now we know why they need so much crap and then don't do anything with it! This also makes them much more tempting targets for just about anybody.
3) People who gain their power without wealth are a much bigger deal. People who have taken the Vow of Poverty are seen as radicals, or alternately prophets blessed by the gods. Almost all Druids and Spirit Shamans will have this feat because gaining powers over nature from money is kind of iffy. VoP might not forbid non-magical goods or ownership of silver pieces.
4) Crafting now collapses gold into the raw power it embodies, and causes it to manifest as a different magic item, kind of like a portable store. XP costs no longer exist because XP no longer exists, and are GP costs instead when spells are concerned (a ratio needs to be worked out). The cost of resurrection is taken from the character's possessions in gold only (which then reflects on their level), negative levels no longer exist.
5) There is a limited amount of permanent magic in the world, since the only way to make a gold piece it to imbue it with the power of another gold piece, and likewise with magic items.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Possible implications of the change (fluff or meta)?

[Zeofar]

Already exists (More or less). See Yahzi's World of Prime (http://www.worldofprime.com/) and this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172950) for some discussion of it.

[Flickerdart]

Those are both different from what I'm talking about. World of Prime's currency is souls, which involves killing stuff and has nothing to actually do with GP. Neither does this idea change the dynamic as much as buying levels does - instead it eliminates XP altogether. You don't buy it. Your GP is now your XP, and your GP value to level up is equal to the WBL chart.

[true_shinken]

It's an interesting concept for sure.

[Godskook]

1.I would put in consumption and creation mechanics, simply cause, without them, eventually, someone wins, and is unstoppable.

2.Re-write disjunction. It now shatters magic items into corresponding gold pieces, making them currently worthless, but if the PC involved survives, no actual gold is lost.

3.Having magic items(or any liquid assets) contribute to level means that when robbed, one becomes a 1st level character again. This seems like more of a bad thing than a good one.

4.This, as-written, *ENCOURAGES* pvp, since in a party of 6 ECL 11 players, one player getting all that WBL means that he's now a ECL 20+. Sleight of Hand optimized to hit DC 40 checks would grant one the ability to become epic in *VERY* short order.

5.This eliminates the "peaceful" options from engagements, since settling for anything less than a "win" means less xp-equivalent.

6.How would VoP characters work?

[Flickerdart]

1.I would put in consumption and creation mechanics, simply cause, without them, eventually, someone wins, and is unstoppable.

2.Re-write disjunction. It now shatters magic items into corresponding gold pieces, making them currently worthless, but if the PC involved survives, no actual gold is lost.

3.Having magic items(or any liquid assets) contribute to level means that when robbed, one becomes a 1st level character again. This seems like more of a bad thing than a good one.

4.This, as-written, *ENCOURAGES* pvp, since in a party of 6 ECL 11 players, one player getting all that WBL means that he's now a ECL 20+. Sleight of Hand optimized to hit DC 40 checks would grant one the ability to become epic in *VERY* short order.

5.This eliminates the "peaceful" options from engagements, since settling for anything less than a "win" means less xp-equivalent.

6.How would VoP characters work?
1. What do you mean? How is this different from standard D&D in that regard?
2. Good point on permanently destroying magic items, I'll have to consider the consequences of that.
3. The benefits are a lingering aura, meaning that you don't go straight to 0 when some schmuck ties you down and absconds with your coin purse. Besides that, stealing from PCs is a **** move and I don't plan on using it.
4. True, but see lingering aura and note about dickery above. Perhaps some sort of time limit might be required to gain the new power (actually training, for instance).
5. That's still inherent in the original ruleset (you gain XP from bypassing an encounter, but not the treasure from it) and would be solved the same way (giving more stuff next time).
6. The same way as usual? Keep a virtual gold tally for them, they hit levels same as everyone else.

[Echoes]

Sounds like it comes dangerously close to a pitfall that existed in earlier editions. Players used to gain experience only when they gained wealth, and thus it became an intense point of contention who got to loot the corpse of the one monster you just slayed. This seems like an interesting idea, but if you implement it, you must ensure that your players are all willing to divide any gold they come across evenly. Otherwise, you end up with one character basically stealing the experience off of the others...

[Godskook]

1. What do you mean? How is this different from standard D&D in that regard?

In standard D&D, you can gain xp in a vacuum area, and then go defeat evil on equal terms. There's a rat-race, but nobody ever wins it. Some people just get further along than others. You can't ever get "all" the xp, preventing everyone else from leveling up.

In your proposed system, having all the gold means that only a VoP character can stop you.


2. Good point on permanently destroying magic items, I'll have to consider the consequences of that.

Just re-writing disjunction like that works, and makes disjunction both a usable combat spell(since you're not taking wealth away) and a utility spell, since it can be used to recover the usable gold in sundered items.


3. The benefits are a lingering aura, meaning that you don't go straight to 0 when some schmuck ties you down and absconds with your coin purse. Besides that, stealing from PCs is a **** move and I don't plan on using it.
4. True, but see lingering aura and note about dickery above. Perhaps some sort of time limit might be required to gain the new power (actually training, for instance).

Versimilitude needs to be addressed, though. Just cause its a jerk thing to do doesn't explain why people don't do it. In normal D&D, doing so 1.doesn't level you up that fast, and 2.Leaves powerful & angry opponents in your wake. Dead or alive, these opponents can still come for you, and avenge themselves, and the wealth disparity isn't as big a deal when you're both still level 14.


5. That's still inherent in the original ruleset (you gain XP from bypassing an encounter, but not the treasure from it) and would be solved the same way (giving more stuff next time).

1."I know my DM will give me more stuff later" is a metagame concept, and an ugly one, imho, for generating character opinions.

2.In standard D&D, you get xp regardless of how you solve a problem, as long as you solve it to a degree that your DM thinks deserves reward. The xp 'magically' improves your character without any in-game reward giver. In your setting, the only way the PCs get a reward is if someone in-game gives it to them or it is taken. Thus, in your setting, Haley woud've been better off killing both of the other resistance leaders and making the loot a "crown of leadership" that she wore until she was ready to leave.


6. The same way as usual? Keep a virtual gold tally for them, they hit levels same as everyone else.

So with VoP, I can gain tangible *and* undeniable growth of power, but without it, I'm powerless without gold? :smallconfused:

And:

7.Why do people form parties and/or armies when stacking wealth onto a single character would do the job *FAR* more efficiently. 10 9th level PCs aren't going to be nearly as effective as 1 17th level PC optimized for that single fight. I mean hell, 9th level spells, for the cost of 9 soldier's gear, yes please!

[Zaq]

You're also going to have to address the weight issue somehow. Sure, once you trade that 50,000 gold in for your shiny new sword, you'll be fine, but while you're accumulating it and stockpiling it? You'll have to carry around a LOT of metal. You'll need to address what specifically counts as "ownership" of the gold (physically carrying it? Carrying it in an extradimensional/nondimensional space? Having it in your account at AdventureBanc™/House Kundarak?), and then address whatever pitfalls that definition contains.

[dgnslyr]

The gold coins are all vaguely and barely conscious, capable of recognizing an owner. If stolen, the coins can recognize the thief as the new owner, and begin transferring power to the new owner. However, if tucked away in a personal demi-plane, they will continue to grant their power to the owner. This way, you'll have to worry less about the letter and more about the spirit of the rule.

Hrm, this could have some interesting potential for a McGuffin. Giant gold mecha, anybody?

[Pechvarry]

This is a really neat idea, but I don't think you should have it replace XP (though waiving XP costs for magic item creation has never been a bad thing).

Things get much easier if there's a way to create the coins (they could be crystalline shards and such, btw. Coalesced magic.) For example, perhaps players have milestones that they need to somehow "absorb" GP to overcome. Mechanically, level caps. Say, every 5 levels, you need to "eat" X amount of GP to unlock the ability to level up again until the next milestone. From here, it'd be neat if creatures would create GP when they died (completing the cycle for the GP used to fuel milestones), but then you become mechanically similar to the whole "powered by souls" deal. You could still use the milestone system even with a finite GP amount, though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

2.Re-write disjunction. It now shatters magic items into corresponding gold pieces, making them currently worthless, but if the PC involved survives, no actual gold is lost.

I like this idea on sheer principle. I like it so much, I'll probably incorporate it into my normal games. It gets disjunctions normal effect, without completely trashing the non-casters. After the fight you gather up the cash that used to be your magic items, go to the nearest metropolis and re-supply.

[Godskook]

I like this idea on sheer principle. I like it so much, I'll probably incorporate it into my normal games. It gets disjunctions normal effect, without completely trashing the non-casters. After the fight you gather up the cash that used to be your magic items, go to the nearest metropolis and re-supply.

Now that you mention it, so do I. It'd have to be calibrated for use in a normal game, though, since magic items only cost 50% of their value in GP to make and another 20% in gold-equivalent xp(using the 5gp value I found in the SRD). So maybe have it drop 70% of its value in gold. And then, of course, along comes an artificer.

[Coidzor]

Well, it means that in a low wealth game, your characters are powerless schmucks who die from a stiff breeze for the entirety of the game rather than just the really annoying period from 1 to 3. That's the knee-jerk reaction, to be sure.

...So you'd have to either be Exalted goody-goody two-shoes or enjoy the most hated portion of the game in order to have it be playable with such a DM.

[Godskook]

Well, it means that in a low wealth game, your characters are powerless schmucks who die from a stiff breeze for the entirety of the game rather than just the really annoying period from 1 to 3. That's the knee-jerk reaction, to be sure.

...So you'd have to either be Exalted goody-goody two-shoes or enjoy the most hated portion of the game in order to have it be playable with such a DM.

I think that a note saying "not compatible with low-wealth campaigns" would be sufficient.

[Mastikator]

If you have one million gp, and lets say you're level 10. And you're good. And you decide "hey, I don't need all of this, I'll give it to charity". And give 95% of all of your gold to various charities.

Did you lose levels?

What if you give your entire fortune to someone. Will be rapidly gain levels?

Edit- anyway it seems like a worthwhile ad hoc justification for your average gamist group. If realism is important you'd probably not play high level to begin with.