<3.5> Lvl8 Paladin - help needed

[FlyingScanian]

Due to an unfortunate accident with a Wyvern, I'm in need of a new character for the last part of the campaign I'm participating in, most likely to last only one session. Due to this, I'm tempted to try something I most likely wouldn't be able to play for a longer time, hence a Paladin.

Problem with this: How does one best build a paladin (or similar) at level 7/8? Book available are mostly Core, Completes and Races, with other things "perhaps" (basically, ask, and spare the cheese... and no, no ToB, sadly).

THe gist of the last leg of the campaign, is that the party will head underground to fight a Rakhasa.

The plan I have so far:

Human Paladin Lvl8, using a Halberd as preferred weapon

Alternate Class Features:
Spell-less Paladin from Complete Warrior (thus reducing the MAD), giving my weapons good alignment
Either Underdark Knight or Charging Smite replacing my mount (most fighting will be underground, where a mount will most likely not be useable)

Feats:
Power Attack
Divine Might
Aside from that, I have almost no ideas...

Money will be VERY low (perhaps 5000-6000gp), so bought equipment won't be much (armour and a +1 weapon would take most of it...)

Any good tips? Keep in mind, cheese and such should be sparse

[LordBlades]

First of all, I'd advise you to take a look at Crusader. Simiar flavor to a paladin, but much better class abilities.

If you're set on playing a paladin however, I'd recommend a mounted charger:

Lance deals double damage on a charge. Valorous (+1 weapon enchantment) does the same, Spirited Charge does the same. Rhino Rush is a paladin spell from the Spell comepdium that also doubles damage on a charge. With all those you'll be dealing x5 damage whenever charging.

8th level human paladin feats:
1: Power attack, Imp. Bull Rush
3: Shock Trooper
6: Leap Attack

This will allow you to take power attack penalty to AC instead of attack, and each point will add +4 damage.

depending on you desired power level, feel free to include how much of the above you see fit:)

[FlyingScanian]

First of all, I'd advise you to take a look at Crusader. Simiar flavor to a paladin, but much better class abilities.

ToB not allowed, as stated.


If you're set on playing a paladin however, I'd recommend a mounted charger:

Lance deals double damage on a charge. Valorous (+1 weapon enchantment) does the same, Spirited Charge does the same. Rhino Rush is a paladin spell from the Spell comepdium that also doubles damage on a charge. With all those you'll be dealing x5 damage whenever charging.

And how well will this work underground, especially if the tunnels don't easily accomodate large creatures?


8th level human paladin feats:
1: Power attack, Imp. Bull Rush
3: Shock Trooper
6: Leap Attack

This will allow you to take power attack penalty to AC instead of attack, and each point will add +4 damage.

depending on you desired power level, feel free to include how much of the above you see fit:)

It sounds tempting, that much I can say... However, I'm worried about taking to big a hit on the AC (something about being turned to way to small bits by the targets friends)...

Any ideas about the Alternate CLass Features I'm thinking about? Bad idea, good idea, utterly stupid?

[LordBlades]

And how well will this work underground, especially if the tunnels don't easily accomodate large creatures?

Depends, is your DM a fan of dungeons with 5ft corridors where creatures larger than medium never leave their assigned rooms? If so, Mounted combat probably won't work. You might however want to look into the Charging smite ACF from PHB 2.





It sounds tempting, that much I can say... However, I'm worried about taking to big a hit on the AC (something about being turned to way to small bits by the targets friends)...

Any ideas about the Alternate CLass Features I'm thinking about? Bad idea, good idea, utterly stupid?

Not sure about spell-less paladin from Complete Warrior. I'm AFB atm so can't check sorry. If all it does is make your weapon good aligned, Bless Weapon does the same thing, and doesn't require you to give up casting any other spells

[Coidzor]

If you're set on playing a paladin however, I'd recommend a mounted charger:

Lance deals double damage on a charge. Valorous (+1 weapon enchantment) does the same, Spirited Charge does the same. Rhino Rush is a paladin spell from the Spell comepdium that also doubles damage on a charge. With all those you'll be dealing x5 damage whenever charging.

8th level human paladin feats:
1: Power attack, Imp. Bull Rush
3: Shock Trooper
6: Leap Attack

Shock Trooper requires BAB+6, so it has to take the level 6 feat slot.

OP: Re: the mount issue, have you considered a Strongheart Halfling for a Medium mount and a 1st level bonus feat?

Also, Paladin of Freedom kosher? Because pounce from a barbarian 1 dip is very tasty on a charging build.

Also, races of stone has a feat that will allow a large-size mount to fight without penalty in an environment where it would have to squeeze to fit (so basically when it has to, the mount can squeeze into a space the size of you and act without penalty while you're still able to ride it) And its prerequisite allows one to fight in an environment 1 size category smaller than their own without penalty. So a Medium character could squeeze into Small sized tunnels and fight without penalty and then ride a Large mount that fights in Medium hallways without penalty.

...You'd still want a block and tackle or an ability to grant the mount good or perfect maneuverability flight if the DM pays attention/uses those rules or a climb speed if you expect to deal with traversing vertical shafts all that often. As even at 8th level, the most agile mount you can acquire by the DMG list of advanced mounts is of average maneuverability flight.

[LordBlades]

Shock Trooper requires BAB+6, so it has to take the level 6 feat slot.

.
That's what you get for posting without checking. My appolagies. Since Leap Attack requires 8 ranks in jump, you can't do that full build without dipping 1-2 levels of fighter. something like paladin 6/fighter 2 might be better actually, since you get a total of 6 feats, allowing you to get the aforementione feat chain, and alsom mounted combat>spirited charge.

[J.Gellert]

Ubercharger with mount. Power Attack, Spirited Charge, and the likes.

I admit that I don't usually over-optimize, but when I tried that, I one-shotted a wyvern at level 7. So you won't have any similar accidents, at least.

Admittedly I had to take flaws for it to work, but there are some great honorable-flavored flaws for paladins in Dragon Magazines, if that's your cup of tea.

[Greenish]

And how well will this work underground, especially if the tunnels don't easily accomodate large creatures?Be a small race, have a medium mount, ride anywhere your companions can walk. :smallwink:

Any ideas about the Alternate CLass Features I'm thinking about? Bad idea, good idea, utterly stupid?Spells are nifty, especially with Battle Blessing. You might be able to reduce MAD with feats: Serenity from Dragon Magazine #306 allows you to use Wisdom in place of Charisma for Divine Grace, LoH, Smite and turning, while Dynamic Priest from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (I think) allows you to base your casting on Charisma.

Finally, I'd suggest seeing if you could use PF paladin in place of the 3.5 one.

[Coidzor]

^: I believe it's actually Dragonlance: Legend of the Twins that Dynamic Priest and Academic Priest (see Dynamic Priest, erase "CHA" and write "INT") appear in.


Fighter is great for dipping one or two levels, after all. And Paladin of Freedom 5/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 would still get the mount on with pounce and two tasty feats.

Isn't there also some variety of spell-less Paladin that gets Feats every 4th level? Ah. Holy Warrior from Complete Champion. Though most of the feats that are good are for mounted builds.

...Would've sworn there was one that just gave one fighter feats at 4th and every 4th level after that though... Maybe that's Dragon Mag material though. :/ Ah well.

You should see if you can get the fighter bonus feats added to that list for Holy Warrior, or at least some of them, anyway. Because the ones available for it are not a good selection at all, especially paired with an unmounted build like underdark knight and the loss of casting.

I just looked over Underdark Knight and the main draw, Earthglide, is 4 levels away and you said this was a one shot campaign. So instead of a force-multiplier in the case of a mount, you get the ability to move as fast as the party barbarian or a fighter in boots of striding and springing. I guess that helps somewhat with the problem of armor reducing move speed for an unmounted build, but seems to me to not be very satisfying at your level.

As an alternative to Shock Trooper, you could take Travel Devotion for increased mobility powered by your Turn Undead Uses,or any other feat powered by Turn Undead that has Turn Undead as a prerequisite.

[Roderick_BR]

Good feats for fighters are Battle Blessing (all spells' speed increases 1 step. All your default time spells becomes quickened), good if you want to use some support magic here and there. From Complete Champion.

Awesome Smite: Combine with Power Attack to eliminate miss chance, or ignore some DR. Use with extra smite for more uses. Useful if you fight too much stuff with miss chance and/or DR. Also Complete Champion.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think dropping spells is necessarily a good idea. I know that the CW spell-less variant is inferior to the CC one. Here's an idea. How about a Monk 2/Paladin 4/Sacred Fist 2. For feats try ascetic knight for full near full monk unarmed strike damage, power attack for damage, Travel devotion for movement. Get the Monk ACF Decisive strike (PHB2) so you can get double damage out of your smite. I'd sink the cash into +2 ability boosters for str, con, dex, and wis.

FWIW, It's something I'd enjoy playing anyway. :smallsmile:

EDIT: You'll have to take combat casting in there somewhere, it's a requirement of sacred fist.

[LordBlades]

I don't think dropping spells is necessarily a good idea. I know that the CW spell-less variant is inferior to the CC one. Here's an idea. How about a Monk 2/Paladin 4/Sacred Fist 2. For feats try ascetic knight for full near full monk unarmed strike damage, power attack for damage, Travel devotion for movement. Get the Monk ACF Decisive strike (PHB2) so you can get double damage out of your smite. I'd sink the cash into +2 ability boosters for str, con, dex, and wis.

FWIW, It's something I'd enjoy playing anyway. :smallsmile:

A class that capitalizes better IMHO on the Paladin/Monk idea is Argent Fist from Faiths of Eberron.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A class that capitalizes better IMHO on the Paladin/Monk idea is Argent Fist from Faiths of Eberron.

Argent Fist? I'm not familiar. PM me some details?

[Vladislav]

Law Devotion. It's the wise man's Weapon Focus. +3 to all attacks (or AC, if you're so inclined, but usually goes to attacks), reusable due to Turn Undead. If you have Power Attack, this translates into +6 damage.

Protection Devotion. It's the wise man's Dodge. +2 AC seems a tad weak, until you realize it affects everyone in your party. If your DM likes to throw a lot of hard-hitting melee challenges, this is golden.

Good as Travel Devotion may be, I would be hard-pressed to find a Paladin deity that grants the Travel domain. Also, seems a bit out of place for a Paladin flavorwise. But that's just me. Mechanically, it is of course very good.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Law Devotion. It's the wise man's Weapon Focus. +3 to all attacks (or AC, if you're so inclined, but usually goes to attacks), reusable due to Turn Undead. If you have Power Attack, this translates into +6 damage.

Protection Devotion. It's the wise man's Dodge. +2 AC seems a tad weak, until you realize it affects everyone in your party. If your DM likes to throw a lot of hard-hitting melee challenges, this is golden.

Good as Travel Devotion may be, I would be hard-pressed to find a Paladin deity that grants the Travel domain. Also, seems a bit out of place for a Paladin flavorwise. But that's just me. Mechanically, it is of course very good.

Meh. OP never said he had a deity in mind, or that his paladin would even worship one. Travel Devotion allows him to full attack/decisive strike after a move.

[Keld Denar]

Hellbreaker? Its in Fiendish Codex 2.

At ECL8, you could go with the Person_Man special: Pally of Freedom4/Barb1/Hellbreaker3

That gets you some pretty slick swift action healing, Turn Undead to power Divine or Devotion feats, full BAB, potentially Pounce (with the Spirit Lion Totem), and lots of good flavor. You are a furious warrior who passionately hunts and destroys evil outsiders and erases.

EDIT: Also, Paladin makes a great leadin to Suel Arcanamach. Paladin4/Duskblade2/Suel2 or Paladin4/Duskblade2/Suel1/AbjurantChampion5 would be decent starts. Final build would be Paladin4/Duskblade2/Suel4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisciple4.

Alternatively, Sorcadin is solid: Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp1 as a start, continuing with AbjChamp+4/SacredExorcist8.

All solid builds with a LOT more options that simple Pal8 is gonna have. Debatably, options make the game more fun. Here are some options.

[AtwasAwamps]

I use and love the Charging Smite ACF fairly regularly…it gives you a nice, reliable battering ram versus opponents.

Both spell-less paladins are inferior to having spell-casting. You just don’t get enough for it. Keep in mind that paladins get spells such as lesser restoration and rhino’s rush at level 1…even just having 12 Wisdom means you’ll be able to cast them, saving your cleric some trouble with lesser restoration or causing serious damage on a charge to change the tide of battle. Plus, it means the party has someone who can use those wands of cure light if/when other divine casters go down/unconscious/lose their hands.

I’d really suggest going with the Power Attack-Leap Attack-Shock Trooper build. Its just a very strong standard damaging build for melee. Leap attack will give you 32 damage on your charge. The main problem here is having the skill points for the jump requirements…but there’s ways to manage that. Couple leap attack and charging smite at level 8 as a paladin and that’s…56 damage. With Rhino’s Rush up, that’s 112 damage. Before even rolling a die. That’s hard to pass up, neh?

[FlyingScanian]

Well, my plans have certainly begun to crystalize thanks to this thread. As things look now:

Human Paladin 8

Charging Smite ACF (Replace Mount)

FEATS:
Power Attack (Human 1)
Imp. Bullrush (Lvl 1)
Law Devotion (CC p. 61) (Lvl 3)
Shock Trooper (CWar p.112) OR Battle Blessings (Comp.Champ p.55) (Lvl 6)

My main question is if I should go with Shock Trooper (more direct damage, with a certain risk of direct death), or Battle Blessings (Hello, quickly enhanced fighting).

This much is certain, at least, I will have spells (and 14 Wisdom, meaning 2 lvl1 spells and 1 lvl2)... Any good suggestions as to what spells to memorize (preferably with book and page references as well....) Bless Weapon seems a given, at least when we approach the End boss


I might also note that this will be my second character, EVER, so keeping things somewhat easy for me, or at least not TOO complicated, might be a good idea...

The idea for a paladin, is basically as a quick answer to the questions "what are you doing here" (at a hidden, but attacked village), "why do you want to help us?" and "can we trust you?"...

[Incanur]

So do we all agree that the paladin is a solid tier 4? I think this class does the charging nova thing rather well.

[Keld Denar]

Whether or not Battle Blessing is worth it depends a lot on a couple of factors. If you are burning all of your spell slots on Rhino's Rush and Knight's Move, well...they are already swift. Thus, Battle Blessing does nothing. If you are gonna cast buffs like Divine Favor or Bless Weapon or Righteous Fury a lot, then it gets a bit more lucrative. If you are gonna invest heavily in things like Pearls of Power to get MORE spells per day than normal, it gets even more powerful. How much you get out of it really makes a difference in whether or not you should take it.

Did you take a look at Hellbreaker in Fiendish Codex 2? Its really an amazing PrC for the Paladin who doesn't want to take any more Paladin levels than he has to, but still wants that holy beatdown machine feel. It adds a lot of swift action healing and buffage options, something that a standard vanillia pally misses out on.

[Incanur]

Find the gap also combos extremely well with Battle Blessing. You might not want to take it until level 12 because of the lower-level swift-action spells.

[Vladislav]

So do we all agree that the paladin is a solid tier 4?I always thought it's a tier above the fighter. Can hit just as hard, often harder, plus useful in social situations, plus some healing and utility.

[SurlySeraph]

My main question is if I should go with Shock Trooper (more direct damage, with a certain risk of direct death), or Battle Blessings (Hello, quickly enhanced fighting).

You mentioned that you'll have very little wealth; and at your level, Battle Blessing won't really be worth it unless you have a bunch of Pearls of Power. I'd go with Shock Trooper instead.

I'd pick up a weapon with the Smoking enhancement (+1) to give you a miss chance if you can afford one. If not, I'd get a masterwork weapon to save money and focus on armor and protective items.

[LordBlades]

You mentioned that you'll have very little wealth; and at your level, Battle Blessing won't really be worth it unless you have a bunch of Pearls of Power. I'd go with Shock Trooper instead.

I'd pick up a weapon with the Smoking enhancement (+1) to give you a miss chance if you can afford one. If not, I'd get a masterwork weapon to save money and focus on armor and protective items.

If you go with Shock Trooper, you might as well make it count, and pick a Valorous weapon IMHO. Armor and Protective items won't do much when you're dropping -10 AC on a charge. For Shock Trooper builds it's much better to focus on HP and miss chance items (see if you can get a friendly caster to buff you with Displacement as you're a bit too low level for permanent concealment. items).

[Person_Man]

My suggested options, many of them already mentioned:
Pathfinder Paladin (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin): Superior to the normal Paladin in every way. Show it to your DM, and beg him to use it.

Sir Didymus. Small race on a Medium mount. Take Leadership at 6th level to get an awesome Special Mount (rules strait out of the DMG for this). Use a lance two handed, and you're set for a mobile tank.
Sword and Board: Divine Shield. Burn a turn/rebuke undead to add your Cha bonus to your shield bonus for a number of rounds. On top of that, take Shield Slam. When you charge an enemy and attack with your Shield, you get a free Trip attack (from the Shield Charge pre-req) and your enemy must Save or be Dazed for 1 round. Both in Complete Warrior.
Ordained Champion PrC: As a Swift Action you can burn Turn Undead uses to gain additional Smite attempts. This is by far the most efficient source of Smite uses per day. And if you know that you're basically fighting one big enemy, you can burn through them every round. Complete Champion.
Hellreaver PrC: Gets Mettle, Immunity to Fear, and can heal itself or a Good ally 10 points of damage per round as a Swift Action. Fiendish Codex II.
Fearless Destiny feat: Once per day when you are reduced to -10 or fewer hit points, you are instead reduced to -9 and stable. Requires that you be human. Races of Destiny pg 152.
Tunnel Fighter: When you hit your enemy from higher ground (like when you’re mounted, or climb/fly above the enemy), your enemy must make a Balance check or be knocked Prone or give up his next Move action. When in a tunnel, you can block line of site, so your enemies can’t target your allies standing behind you, although your allies can still target your enemies. Requires that you be a Dwarf or Gnome. Dungeonscape pg 46.

[FlyingScanian]

My suggested options, many of them already mentioned:
Pathfinder Paladin (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin): Superior to the normal Paladin in every way. Show it to your DM, and beg him to use it.

Saldy, no. Perhaps at a later time, when the optimization starts to hit...

Sir Didymus. Small race on a Medium mount. Take Leadership at 6th level to get an awesome Special Mount (rules strait out of the DMG for this). Use a lance two handed, and you're set for a mobile tank.
While I won't use this for this paladin, I am so gonna use it if I ever make another one (Halfling on a dog? Heck yeah!)

Sword and Board: Divine Shield. Burn a turn/rebuke undead to add your Cha bonus to your shield bonus for a number of rounds. On top of that, take Shield Slam. When you charge an enemy and attack with your Shield, you get a free Trip attack (from the Shield Charge pre-req) and your enemy must Save or be Dazed for 1 round. Both in Complete Warrior.
I would very much prefer to use a twohander (most likely a halberd)... If I ever make a cleric, on the other hand...

Ordained Champion PrC: As a Swift Action you can burn Turn Undead uses to gain additional Smite attempts. This is by far the most efficient source of Smite uses per day. And if you know that you're basically fighting one big enemy, you can burn through them every round. Complete Champion.
Since I would prefer to use a twohander, it would mean a wasted feat (weapon focus). Also, it would mean I would only be caster level 3, and thus even shorter duration on my spells.

Hellreaver PrC: Gets Mettle, Immunity to Fear, and can heal itself or a Good ally 10 points of damage per round as a Swift Action. Fiendish Codex II.
Book not available :(

Fearless Destiny feat: Once per day when you are reduced to -10 or fewer hit points, you are instead reduced to -9 and stable. Requires that you be human. Races of Destiny pg 152.
Feels a bit feat intensive, meaning that I would have even less feats to actually fight with (basically, no stormtrooper)

Tunnel Fighter: When you hit your enemy from higher ground (like when you’re mounted, or climb/fly above the enemy), your enemy must make a Balance check or be knocked Prone or give up his next Move action. When in a tunnel, you can block line of site, so your enemies can’t target your allies standing behind you, although your allies can still target your enemies. Requires that you be a Dwarf or Gnome. Dungeonscape pg 46.

I would very much prefer to be a human, sadly

Well, on to how things look now (now with included (rolled) stats)

Human Paladin

Str 17 (+1 at level 4)
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 15 (+1 at level 8)

ACF:
Charging Smite (Replace Mount)

FEATS:
Power Attack
Imp. Bullrush
Law Devotion
Shock Trooper

I also have 2 lvl1 spells and 1 lvl2 to memorize. For level one, I would generally aim for Bless Weapon and Rhino's Rush, but what would I go for as my lvl2 spell? Knight's move has a range of a whoppin' 10 feet, so doesn't feel all that useful (basically, I could get there in two rounds by 5 foot stepping), and there might be other useful things. I've been thinking abit about Bull's Strength, +4 Str is always useful (even with a duration of a whopping 4min).

I will also have only 7000gp to by things with. Any suggestions for cheap and useful items?
(Masterwork Halberd, Full Plate Mail and "random Adventuring Gear" (rope etc) sets me back 1874gp, so there is a total of slightly more than 5000gp left, including any healing potions and such)

Finally, I have another problem... what the beep am I going to name him? (yeah, I suck at naming...) Any good suggestions? I was thinking about something moderately obscure from Arthurian legend or some such...

[Vladislav]

It may be just me, but a paladin w/o a steed looks really lame. Just because you don't have the mount class feature, doesn't mean you can't buy a normal warhorse. It's just 400 gp, nothing you can't afford.

[FlyingScanian]

I fully agree, that was actually the plan, but I wanted to see what ideas other people had first.