[3.5] Level 4 Rogue with $Texas to spend

[RMS Oceanic]

Through a contrived series of events, everyone in my party has ended up with 80,000 GP each to spend improving their stuff, as long as we don't buy broken items.

Background info:

I'm a TWF-er with Craven.
I plan to dip into Swordsage later for the extra sneak attack and dex to damage.
My weapons are currently +1 Short Swords

Any thoughts on what I should buy? I'm currently thinking:
Add a +1 ability to my weapons (I don't think the DM will let me go much higher than that at this stage)
Item of +4 Dexterity
Item of +4 Constitution
Mithral Chainmail
A spread of wands I can UMD with
Dust of Choking and Sneezing, for that one boss fight we need to win.

[Eldariel]

Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) could be good. +1 Animated Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#animated) would also be a good pick. And yeah, Dex and Con are nice.

Get a +1 Rapier. More crit range than Short Sword, no detriments. Healing Belt [Magic Item Compendium] is kinda obvious, and you may want to consider Displacing-property [Magic Item Compendium] on your armor. And hey, you have the money so get a Winged Vest [Magic Item Compendium] for some nice flight; that or work with your DM to get a Celestial Armor that has more uses per day.


Yeah, Wands are obvious; one good Wand of some Touch Attack spell would be nice for ranged Sneak Attacking. You obviously want Sniper's Shot and Gravestrike, Vinestrike & Golemstrike. Cure Light Wounds wouldn't hurt. Oh, and get a Circlet of Persuasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#circletofPersuasion) for some bonus on the activation checks. Maybe some Wand of Invisibility or something of the sort. Oh, and Boots of Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofSpeed) are nice, as are Anklets of Translocation [Magic Item Compendium]; combine them for your legs slot. Oh, and consider Chronocharms [Magic Item Compendium]. 750gp a piece, handy 1/day ability.

Oh, and Dust of Sneezing and Choking sounds a bit silly when you say you aren't allowed to buy broken items. It's not Candle of Invocation but it's not exactly fair either.

[Elric VIII]

How about the Speed enhancement on your weapon?

A +1 speed shortsword costs 32,000.

From SRD:

Speed
When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

That's 4 attacks on a full attack with dual wielding, even with <6 BAB.

[dextercorvia]

Perhaps Gloves of the Balanced Hand. For 8000, you get to behave like you already have Improved TWF.

[Telonius]

I'd look up some of the Weapon Augment crystals in the Magic Item Compendium. Being able to sneak attack undead and constructs is a very big improvement for any Rogue.

Some utility weapons could be nice. Maybe a set of MW cold iron, adamantine, and alchemical silver shortswords.

One thing that I would be a bit cautious about, though, is the fact that you've just had a whole bunch of money dumped on your head. When this happens, DMs have a tendency to take steps to eat away at the excess, through thieves or plot devices. If you think this might be the case, you might want to spring for a Tome to give you an inherent bonus to a stat. Those are a lot harder to take away than a sword that can be sundered, or a shiny magic item that can be stolen.

[some guy]

I would at least make that Mithral Chainmail a Mithral Breast Plate. For 50gp more you get 1 maximum dex bonus more, 1 armor check penalty less and it weighs 5 lbs less.

[Eldariel]

How about the Speed enhancement on your weapon?

A +1 speed shortsword costs 32,000.

From SRD:

Speed
When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

That's 4 attacks on a full attack with dual wielding, even with <6 BAB.

Unfortunately, it doesn't stack with itself; so only 3 (it's a haste-like effect and doesn't stack with haste-like effects). Boots of Speed are almost certainly a better investment, clocking in at 12k and granting Haste for 10 rounds split freely (which should be plenty for when you really need the extra attack) with free action activation and deactivation

[Vladislav]

I would at least make that Mithral Chainmail a Mithral Breast Plate. For 50gp more you get 1 maximum dex bonus more, 1 armor check penalty less and it weighs 5 lbs less.

The difference between Mithral chain shirt and Mitral Breastplace is actually 3,050 gp.



Mithral Cost Modifiers
Type of Mithral Item Item Cost Modifier
Light armor +1,000 gp
Medium armor +4,000 gp
Heavy armor +9,000 gp
Shield +1,000 gp
Other items +500 gp/lb.

[some guy]

The difference between Mithral chain shirt and Mitral Breastplace is actually 3,050 gp.

Correct, but between Mithral chain mail and Mitral Breastplace, it's just 50 gp. And that's what the OP had written, but it can get confusing, so maybe he did mean a chain shirt.

How about counterstrike bracers (MIC, pg 90, 2500 gp), twice a day you can make a free attack of opportunity against an enemy that just missed you in melee combat. It probably takes the slot of a dexterity enhancing item, but maybe you can combine the two.

[Vladislav]

Correct, but between Mithral chain mail and Mitral Breastplace, it's just 50 gp.Foiled by reading comprehension again :smallmad:

[Barlen]

I would at least make that Mithral Chainmail a Mithral Breast Plate. For 50gp more you get 1 maximum dex bonus more, 1 armor check penalty less and it weighs 5 lbs less.

Add Shadowed (+5 hide) and Silent moves (+ 5 move Silent) to it for 3750 each. A mithral chain shirt +1 with shadowed and silent is 1100 (base) + 1000 (+1 bonus) + 3750 (Silent) + 3750 (shadowed) = 9600. Max dex 6, Armor check 0.

The BP would be 4200 (base) + 1000 (+1 bonus) + 3750 (Silent) + 3750 (shadowed) = 12700. Max Dex 5, armor check -1.

The nimbleness enchantment is an effective +1 bonus (adds 3k to an already +1 armor) and increases the max dex by 1 and lowers the armor check by 2 (min 0). The Silent and shadowed enchants are straight cash and don't increase the effective level of enchantment.

I would go with the shirt instead of the BP personally, but thats style. Spending an effective 3k for 1 more ac is probably worth it if you have the cash.

Oh and just for kicks, for 500g each you can increase you fort and reflex saves by 1 with the agility and stamina enchants. Sort of a "if you have the cash to burn why not" situation. All of these are out of the Magic item compendium fyi.

Edit: yea I misread chainmail and thought chain shirt as well.

[RMS Oceanic]

You know what? I meant Chain Shirt. :smallredface:

[molten_dragon]

It Get a +1 Rapier. More crit range than Short Sword, no detriments.

Is rapier on the list of shadow hand weapons? If not, it won't work with the shadow blade feat. Rapiers also can't be dual wielded without heavier penalties because they aren't light weapons. you could just use one of each, by then you would only get the free swordsage weapon focus on one of your weapons.

[mootoall]

My recommendation is the smoking weapon enhancement. +1 cost, and pretty much as much concealment as you want. Great for the enterprising rogue.

[Ruinix]

with a medium armor +1 such as mithrall breastplate add a crystal of iron ward diamon leasser (2000gp) wich give DR 3/- to a max of 30 points. (MIC p26)

[Elric VIII]

Unfortunately, it doesn't stack with itself; so only 3 (it's a haste-like effect and doesn't stack with haste-like effects). Boots of Speed are almost certainly a better investment, clocking in at 12k and granting Haste for 10 rounds split freely (which should be plenty for when you really need the extra attack) with free action activation and deactivation
My group has always played it that it can't stack on a single weapon, +1 Speed Longsword on a hasted char with +4 BAB gets only 2 attacks on a full. We treated different weapons as different sources so that each weapon gets one extra attack. I guess I thought that was just how it worked with regards to stacking.

As for spending money, maybe you should see if you can get the shadowhand signature weapon. It's a legacy weapon, so if it ever comes up you can go into Legacy Champion if you need.

[Eldariel]

Is rapier on the list of shadow hand weapons? If not, it won't work with the shadow blade feat. Rapiers also can't be dual wielded without heavier penalties because they aren't light weapons. you could just use one of each, by then you would only get the free swordsage weapon focus on one of your weapons.

Ah yes, I always remember it's a Shadow Hand weapon when it in fact is not. But yeah, otherwise Rapier/SS would be nice. With that, you gotta go with dual SS. Funny; I guess they intentionally cut all 18-20 crit weapons from Shadow Hand list (other strange omission: Kukri).

[Newbieshoes]

Ring of Blinking and a ghost touch weapon.

[Morbis Meh]

Ring of invisibility, 20,000 GP, if you take travel devotion as a feat and the skill trick mosquito bite when you can you basically get 2 free SA on an enemy.

[RMS Oceanic]

Ring of Blinking and a ghost touch weapon.

Does that let me negate my own miss chance?

[Thespianus]

Ring of invisibility, 20,000 GP, if you take travel devotion as a feat and the skill trick mosquito bite when you can you basically get 2 free SA on an enemy.
The invisibility is lost as soon as you attack, and Mosquito Bite don't help in this scenario, since the target still knows you attacked. It just seemed like a miss.

@OP: Maybe the Fleet Warrior's Array from the MIC? Gives you a ton of different abilities (extra sneak attack during full attack, extra speed, Freedom of movement, extra initiative, and dimension door 1/day) all for 26000 GP

[Morbis Meh]

The invisibility is lost as soon as you attack, and Mosquito Bite don't help in this scenario, since the target still knows you attacked. It just seemed like a miss.

@OP: Maybe the Fleet Warrior's Array from the MIC? Gives you a ton of different abilities (extra sneak attack during full attack, extra speed, Freedom of movement, extra initiative, and dimension door 1/day) all for 26000 GP

Yes but if the attacker doesn't know you are there then he's considered flat footed, if you are behind him mosquito bite will not notify that you are there so you would get your second SA.

[Thespianus]

Yes but if the attacker doesn't know you are there then he's considered flat footed, if you are behind him mosquito bite will not notify that you are there so you would get your second SA.
There's no "behind" in 3.5, by RAW, so that would be a houserule.

By RAW, the target will know that you attacked and missed. (missing doesn't mean that you failed to touch the target at all, missing just means that you failed to do any damage) and he will see you (since the invisibility is gone) and the second attack won't be a Sneak Attack, since the target won't be flat footed anymore.

However, if you can render the target flatfooted in some other way (Grease, for example) then you can full attack with SA in both attacks. Mosquito's Bite, however, won't be a part of the equation.

[Eldariel]

By RAW, the target will know that you attacked and missed. (missing doesn't mean that you failed to touch the target at all, missing just means that you failed to do any damage) and he will see you (since the invisibility is gone) and the second attack won't be a Sneak Attack, since the target won't be flat footed anymore..

You're flat-footed until you have acted; just being missed or in general, attacked does nothing but give you a place in the initiative order. Until you actually ACT on it, you're still flat-footed.

[Thespianus]

You're flat-footed until you have acted; just being missed or in general, attacked does nothing but give you a place in the initiative order. Until you actually ACT on it, you're still flat-footed.

Yes, so in a surprise round, you can make a move action and a full attack with SA on all attacks, if you have Travel Devotion.

However, you being Invisible or Mosquito's Bite doesn't enter into it.

I was assuming Morbis Meh was talking of normal rounds, not the surprise round, since Invisibility and Mosquito's Bite isn't needed to get off a full attack with sneak attacks in the surprise round.

In a normal combat round, the trick just don't work, since the target isn't flatfooted anymore, unless you have some extra way of making him flat footed.

Invisibility doesn't make the target flat footed, it just makes him lose his dex bonus to AC, and Mosquito's Bite isn't valid for attacks on targets that are not flat footed.

In short:

Mosquito's Bite - very lame. Can't be used to get extra sneak attacks.
Ring of Invisibility - Won't help you get more than one sneak attack unless you're in a surprise round.

[RMS Oceanic]

So, what's the ruling on Blink + Ghost Touch? Does that negate my personal miss chance? If it does, that may just reshuffle my plans.

[Eldariel]

Yes, so in a surprise round, you can make a move action and a full attack with SA on all attacks, if you have Travel Devotion.

Well, actually you only have a Standard Action on the Surprise Round so no full attack. Winning Initiative, however...

But yeah, you're of course correct on the whole Invisibility/Mosquito's Bite-discussion. Bite is funny but rarely has too much of a utility outside scenarios where you are dealing with somebody you wanna kill on friendly terms. With a good bluff, you might get a free hit outta it.


So, what's the ruling on Blink + Ghost Touch? Does that negate my personal miss chance? If it does, that may just reshuffle my plans.

It does not. Ghost Touch is very particular in that it only works from Material to Ethereal. Pierce Magical Concealment might. Note tho that Blink Miss Chance isn't Concealment so you can still Sneak Attack in spite of it.

[RMS Oceanic]

Okay, quick update. My DM has implemented a cosmic retcon where we can all run around with an exotic weapon instead of the usual thing. With this in mind, I picked Elven Lightblades, which my DM ruled will count as short swords for Shadow Hand. :smallsmile:

With that in mind, here is my preliminary list of stuff:

Gloves of the Balanced Hand (Free ITWF. It probably won't kick in just yet, but it's still a free feat.) and Dexterity +4 - 24,000
Amulet of Health +2 (Just for the time being, while I see if there's something I can buy with the 12k I freed up) - 4,000
+2 Shadow Mithral Shirt (Instead of Hide and Move Silently, we merged them into Stealth) - 8,000
Adding an undecided +1 ability to both my weapons - 12,000
Eternal Wand of Knock - 4,420
2 Type 1 Bags of Holding - 5,000

I'm not sure what else to get.

[Reynard]

Cape of the Montebank! Useful in all situations, twice a day.

[RMS Oceanic]

Forgot to mention, I'm using the precise strike ACF from Dungeonscape, so I can do half my sneak attack damage when flanking otherwise immune dudes, and this extends to oozes and constructs as well as undead, so I'm not going to bother with gravestrike or similar. I'm not sure I'll bother with Ring of Blinking, since I don't have enough feats for Pierce Magical Concealment and I don't like having a miss chance to all my attacks.

Adding a few more things.

Vest of Resistance +3 (+3 to all saves) - 9,000 GP
1 Masterwork Silver Lightblade - 320 GP
1 Masterwork Cold Iron Lightblade - 450 GP
1 Adamantine Lightblade - 3,000 GP
1 +1 Light Mace (In case of Liches) - 2,000 GP
1 Sickle (for DR X/Slashing) - 6GP
1 each of a Lesser Fire, Cold, Lightning and Acid Weapon Crystal - 12,000 GP
2 Wands of Vigor (heals more than CLW) - 1,500 GP

If I have anything else, I'd like to spend it on utility items/wands of utility spells rather than weapons.

Speaking of weapons, what +1 ability should I add to them? I was thinking of Eager on one (draw as a free action, +2 init and +2 damage in surprise/first round) and Warning on the other (+5 init). Someone mentioned Smoking, but I couldn't find that one. Can you tell me what it does?

[Eldariel]

Boots of Speed and Anklets of Translocation are still godsent. Wand of Lion's Charge [Spell Compendium] is definitely something to consider too.

[Thespianus]

Well, actually you only have a Standard Action on the Surprise Round so no full attack. Winning Initiative, however...
I am teh st00pid. You're absolutely right. I got the surprise round and acting on the first round when winning initiative mixed up.


But yeah, you're of course correct on the whole Invisibility/Mosquito's Bite-discussion. Bite is funny but rarely has too much of a utility outside scenarios where you are dealing with somebody you wanna kill on friendly terms. With a good bluff, you might get a free hit outta it.
Mosquito's Bite is a weird skill trick. It seems so very very neat, until you let it all sink in.. and you realize that you're way better off using the 2 skill points on an actual useable skill.

[Newbieshoes]

It does not. Ghost Touch is very particular in that it only works from Material to Ethereal. Pierce Magical Concealment might. Note tho that Blink Miss Chance isn't Concealment so you can still Sneak Attack in spite of it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#ghostTouchWeapon

It says even incorporeal creatures can wield a ghost touch weapon just fine.

Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

And the spell blink says and ethereal creature is incorporeal and invisible (not very good invisibility since you keep popping back up)

[Eldariel]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#ghostTouchWeapon

It says even incorporeal creatures can wield a ghost touch weapon just fine.

Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

That's very obsolete, not to mention not nearly as straight-forward as you'd like to believe. Incorporeal creatures can wield Ghost Touch weapons on the material plane but Ghost Touch weapons in their possession become Ethereal along with them. And Incorporeal and Ethereal are very different conditions; there's no way for Ethereal creatures without Manifestation ability to affect the material plane while Incorporeal creatures exist on the material plane, merely without weapons.

In the case of Incorporeals, Ghost Touch is a bit wonky since all their equipment becomes Incorporeal too but Ghost Touch weapons are supposed to strike as Corporeals while still going through walls. And when they relinquish the possession of said weapon, it suddenly becomes Corporeal again. Which lead to all sorts of funkiness like Corporeal creatures using Ghost Touch weapons for Touch Attacks due to the convenience clause in Corporeality (Incorporeal weapons with Ghost Touch attack as the Incorporeal creatures, or with Touch Attacks.


Rules Compendium pretty much ret-conned all of that, but that's really irrelevant since we're really talking about Ethereals here.


And the spell blink says and ethereal creature is incorporeal and invisible (not very good invisibility since you keep popping back up)

Etherealness is a very different condition; the spell merely explains how it effectively appears to an observer. An Ethereal creature is on a parallel plane of existence and those without Manifest-ability are utterly unable to affect the Material Plane, Ghost Touch or no Ghost Touch. In short, if the spell made you Incorporeal, it could work out but that's a very different spell called "Ghostform" and is an 8th level spell that removes your Str-score, among other things.

[true_shinken]

If you can't get broken items, I'd say a belf ot battle is no game.
Boots of Speed combined with an Anklet of Translocation always seems like a good buy to me. If you can get the powers of quicksilver boots as well, it's even more awesome. You will always get your full attacks!

Good gear for Rogues - Organripper (kind of an obscure source; it's from Shattereded Gates of Slaughtergarde), 3000gp +1 dagger that adds +1d6 sneak attack when you use it, deadly precision property adds another +1d6, assassination property adds another +1d6 and increases a poison's DC, Rogue Vest (MiC) adds yet another +1d6 and a Hide bonus, Mantle of the Predator (MiC again) adds +1d6 sudden strike, Hunter's Bracers (from Secrets of Xen'drik) adds +1d6 sneak attack and +2 initiative. Boost that sneak attack!

As already mentioned, the best armor you can get is celestial armor. Go for that, no questions asked.

I'd invest in a few wands as well. They always come in handy.