Help me make a Bone Knight

[Elric VIII]

I read an article in an old Dragon magazine that dealt with necromancers of all alignments (even LG). I really liked the idea of a necromancer that uses undead to uphold good/justice. I have been recommended the PrC Bone Knight as a good martial cleric/necromancer class without the requirement of being evil to enter. As such, I want to try to make a LN necromancer that channels positive energy, but deals with undead. The fact that the bone knight changes your turn ability to a rebuke ability while still allowing you to channel positive energy is exactly the type of duality, skirting the bounds of good & evil I would like to achieve. I have a few issues though.

-Does the bone knight's ability that changes turning to rebuking work the way I think it does in regards to being able to still channel positive energy spontaneously?

-Is there a PrC that a LN cleric can enter at around 5-7 level that doesn't lose a caster level but grants the Ride skill (for the Bone Knight prerequisites).

-Is there a way to get the Ride skill via feats of there is no PrC that grants it?

-If you have War domain, but wish to be a cleric dedicated to a cause rather than a god, what happens to its special ability?

-What do people think about the feat Mastery of Day and Night?

[hamishspence]

Unearthed Arcana has a feat that makes a skill a class skill (it may also be in the SRD).

EDIT:- It is- Skill Knowledge- in the Variant Rules section:


Skill Knowledge [General]
You gain access to new knowledge and abilities.

Benefit
Choose any two skills from one of your current classes' skill lists. You now know these skills as class skills.

Special
Instead of choosing two class skills, you may choose one cross-class skill (whether you already know it or not) and learn it, treating it as a class skill from that point forward.

[Elric VIII]

Unearthed Arcana has a feat that makes a skill a class skill (it may also be in the SRD).

EDIT:- It is- Skill Knowledge- in the Variant Rules section:

Thanks for the quick respose. Even though I would prefer a PrC over a feat, this is exactly what I was hoping for.

[hamishspence]

There might possibly be a PRC somewhere- maybe look to the Complete series of books. Complete Divine, Complete Adventurer, Complete Scoundrel or Complete Champion.

I don't have them to immediate hand though.

[Greenish]

-Does the bone knight's ability that changes turning to rebuking work the way I think it does in regards to being able to still channel positive energy spontaneously?That seems correct, and even if your DM rules otherwise, you can take Domain Spontaneity ACF from PHBII and Healing domain.


-Is there a PrC that a LN cleric can enter at around 5-7 level that doesn't lose a caster level but grants the Ride skill (for the Bone Knight prerequisites).None I can think of. Prestige paladin requires only 4 ranks of ride to enter, but you'd have to be LG.


-Is there a way to get the Ride skill via feats of there is no PrC that grants it?
Only the Skill Knowledge. 3.0 Cosmopolitan would've also worked, but it got screwed over by 3.5.


-If you have War domain, but wish to be a cleric dedicated to a cause rather than a god, what happens to its special ability?It's down to DM, but assumedly you'd gain the feats for a weapon appropriate for your cause or alignment (warhammer for good, longsword for law, flail for evil, battleaxe for chaos).


-What do people think about the feat Mastery of Day and Night?It's okay.

[Edit]:
There might possibly be a PRC somewhere- maybe look to the Complete series of books. Complete Divine, Complete Adventurer, Complete Scoundrel or Complete Champion.I looked over CDiv, CChamp and CSco. No dice.

[Elric VIII]

It's down to DM, but assumedly you'd gain the feats for a weapon appropriate for your cause or alignment (warhammer for good, longsword for law, flail for evil, battleaxe for chaos).
It's okay. I was wondering where did you get this info?


I took a cursory glance at Comp Adventurer and Divine (don't have Mage or Scoundrel) and I couldn't find a PrC that adds Ride.

[hamishspence]

I was wondering where did you get this info?

SRD, under Spiritual Weapon spell description, explains that for clerics with no particular deity, the favored weapons are based on alignment:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm

So expanding that to produce "favoured weapons" for any War Cleric with no deity, is a reasonable extrapolation.

[Greenish]

I was wondering where did you get this info?Spiritual Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm) spell and Incarnate Weapon soulmeld of the Incarnate (MoI) both use said divisions, as do some other spells.

Granted, it's conjecture, but pretty solid one.

[Elric VIII]

Granted, it's conjecture, but pretty solid one.

Well, my DM does tend to let me make concessions in the name of flavor, so this would definately be solid enough. Not to start and alignment discussion/war, the stock alignments rarely work accurately enough to describe my characters. I think that I spend way too much time developing a backstory whose only use is to be something to point to if my DM says he doesn't think an action matches my alignment. Thanks for the reference material.

All I need now is a PrC that adds ride, but I have doubts as to whether that exists beyond PrC Paladin.

[kestrel404]

Combat Medic. From Heroes of Battle. Full casting progression, Low BAB progression, has Ride as a class skill. Requires two feats (Dodge & Combat Casting) and 8 ranks of Heal skill and 4 ranks of Concentration (and some other stuff, but you auto-qualify).

[Elric VIII]

Combat Medic. From Heroes of Battle. Full casting progression, Low BAB progression, has Ride as a class skill. Requires two feats (Dodge & Combat Casting) and 8 ranks of Heal skill and 4 ranks of Concentration (and some other stuff, but you auto-qualify).

Well, this does help, but I'm taking the Steady Concentration feat so Combat Casting is a rather useless feat, but thank you for the suggestion.

[Fawsto]

Bone knight is awesome prc. Go for it. Now, does it require so many skill points at ride? I mean, it is the class' only pre requisite. The only deal is that you are starting with cleric, which pretty much screws your int...

[Elric VIII]

It's not that it requires a lot, only 6 ranks. Ride is cross class, however so I can't take Bone Knight until level 10. Ideally I would like to get the class earlier than that. With a single dip into Crusader I can get in at level 6, but that loses me a caster level. I want to avoid that.

Since most of our campaigns end at levels 15-16 I want to get in early in order to get to use its abilities rather than getting halfway through the class and finishing the adventure.

Rest assured, however, I will definately be taking this class.

[SurlySeraph]

You might be able to take Martial Study (any Desert Wind) to get Tumble as a class skill and then use Skilled City-Dweller from the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) to trade Tumble for Ride. This is based more on a "nothing says you can't" interpretation of the rules than a clearly intended use of them, though.

[hamishspence]

Are Forgotten Realms sources valid for this exercise?

I've found one PRC that grants both full casting, and access to the Ride skill, as well as a variety of other things. It's even necromancy themed.

However- it requires you to be Evil. If DM is willing to houserule that away though, could work.

It's Wearer of Purple, from Faiths & Pantheons. (Dragons of Faerun has a small sidebar updating it to 3.5).

Specifically, Alchemy became Craft (Alchemy) Scry became Concentration, and Craft, Knowledge (local) and Spellcarft were added to class skills.

Also, only Death, Dragon. and Scalykind were available as added domains.

Dracoride, became a +4 bonus to Ride checks involving creatures of the dragon type.

For the glory of the dead dragons! :smallamused:

[GoatBoy]

Check with your DM about making your bonecraft armor... doing it by the book will take you the better part of a year. The Artifice domain gives you fabricate, but you won't see that until you can cast 5th level spells, level 10 at the earliest.

Between craft, ride, and Mastery of Day and Night prereqs, you're going to be hurting for skill points, though.

[Elric VIII]

Well, as for the Wearer of Purple, I was barely able to convince my DM to allow Bone Knight, on the grounds that it is exactly the character type I was looking for when I came up with this concept. I'm not sure how far I can get him to go, but that seems to be my best choice.

Bonecraft Full Plate would take me about 50 weeks, but as luck would have it we are going to start a campaign with multiple chapters that have downtime between each, so I believe I can get most of my crafting done then. And the Mastery of D&N is rather feat and skill intensive, that's why I wanted to ask about its usefulness at mid to high levels.

As for the Martial Study, I'd rather just use Skill Knowledge since it's less reliant on RAW and lack of clarification.

Thank you for the suggestions, I think that the Wearer is the best class for this, but the Evil prerequisite goes against my character concept. I think I'll just go with a flaw and take Skill Knowledge.

Thank you for all the suggestions.

[Pechvarry]

As for the Martial Study, I'd rather just use Skill Knowledge since it's less reliant on RAW and lack of clarification.

The problem is, Skill Knowledge isn't designed to work in a normal D&D game. It's a feat to use if you use the variant system labeled Maximum Ranks, Limited Choices.

Also, while freakin' neat, I don't think the Skilled City Dweller ACF works that way -- you need Ride already and you trade it for Tumble. I don't see anything saying this works in the other direction.

@Kestrel: Dangit, I was gonna post Combat Medic! Now I need to find another.

EDIT: I did a brief look through domains (PHB, Spell compendium, complete warrior). So far, I haven't found any that grant the Ride skill. Might be a direction to look, though.

[SurlySeraph]

If you don't mind being an Elf, and pick up the Weather domain to get Survival, you could take your 6th level in Seeker of the Misty Isle to get Ride as a class skill. I can't find any divine PrCs that get ride and don't lose a caster level other than that.

[Foryn Gilnith]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860850/Alternative_ways_to_get_new_Class_skills

So if you're somehow an Aereni Elf who was inducted into the military tradition of the Karrnathi Bone Knights, you could take a feat to get Ride as a class skill.

[Elric VIII]

Based on the nerfing of 3.0's Cosmopolitan, I guess WotC doesn't want a feat that grants a skill. While I guess the idea is to prevent ease of multiclassing, I can't imagine that it's broken/unbalancing. Was a reason ever given for this decision?

[Pechvarry]

Probably not, but one of their last books (Tome of Battle) obviously went against this decision. Next up: Initiate feats.

[Elric VIII]

I have a feeling that my DM wouldn't disallow Skill Knowledge, but I've already been asking a lot of him.

For anyone who is a DM, would you allow Skill Knowledge as a feat in order to more easily qualify for a PrC or do you think it's too powerful?

[Tvtyrant]

You lose a feat, you enter a prc. Seems fair to me; you are never getting the feat back afterall. Is Bone Knight that much better then metamagic?

[JaronK]

What about PrC Paladin? It would require being LG, but would give you ride, and with two levels it means your mount would be far better. Caster level loss too... but you get to add Paladin only spells to your spell list.

JaronK

[Elric VIII]

What about PrC Paladin? It would require being LG, but would give you ride, and with two levels it means your mount would be far better. Caster level loss too... but you get to add Paladin only spells to your spell list.

JaronK

Yes, but it requires 4 ranks of Ride, 2 ranks of K (nobility & royalty), and Mounted combat. I'm not sure how much use I would get out of my mount since I've never played a mounted character before.

I do apreciate the idea, but I really want to keep a neutral element in my alignment.

[Pechvarry]

As for Skill Knowledge -- just don't let it be used for UMD and maybe a few other skills like Iaijutsu focus. It's not overpowered at all, but it's not a feat to use if your DM is being prickly about correctness (which was my impression if he's barely stretching to give you Bone Knight).

[Elric VIII]

As for Skill Knowledge -- just don't let it be used for UMD and maybe a few other skills like Iaijutsu focus. It's not overpowered at all, but it's not a feat to use if your DM is being prickly about correctness (which was my impression if he's barely stretching to give you Bone Knight).

It's because Bone Knight is a reference to a different campaign setting and is affiliated with a specific nation that doesn't exist in our setting. He's allowing my to reflavor it as a discipline I learned from ancient history of a country that doesn't exist anymore. He also says that the ability to summon the Karnnathi undead is replaced with Animate and Create Undead, once I can cast those spells. I do agree with his reasoning for blatantly non-european style characters such as Iaijutsu Master (Asian) or Dervish (Middle Eastern), but I argued that Bone Knight is related to paganist rituals.

EDIT: Also, maybe I'm missing something about iaijutsu focus, but how do you make effective use of it? With a tripper build?

[Pechvarry]

Gnomish quickrazors is the normal method, but anything to flat-foot people often and get lots of damage because it's easy to skyrocket skill checks works. Personally, I hate the skill, as it's a) 3.0 and from a setting book not known for balance and b) simply doesn't work on the same paradigm of power as other skills. But I'm not going to say it's overpowered or something. It can't compete with DMM:Persist for example. But that's all neither here nor there.

Anyway, looks like Skill Knowledge will be the way to go for you. Best of luck and stuff.

[Fawsto]

What do you plan for this character? I mean, depending on its role, the loss of a CL or 2 wont hurt at all.

Man, the "excess" of caster levels could even be "inapropriate" for the character's concept.

Also, the BK is normally a "Melee Monster" kind of Cleric. By the Cleric Handbook (found at Wizards, I can send you if you want) a melee Cleric can loose a few CL if it still gets 9th level spells. What really matters here is the ability to rule in melee and the buff spells you can get.

By adding Prestige Paladin you will get awesome Paladin Spells (Including Stuff like Draconinc Might from Draconomicon).

Instead you could use Ordained Champion, whose abilities can turn you into a real melee beast in no time.

Qualifying into BK without a dip seems pretty hard. One could think that it was something intended by the designers since it is a melee focused class.

It would help to know what you are trying to achieve with the character.

[Elric VIII]

Here's an excerpt from my background, to help you see what I want. (and I like the idea of someone actually being interested in it since we don't go very story-heavy) I'll make some annotations about what influences character choices:

-Originally a Cleric of Heironeous(He still uses the war domain), trained as a battlefield medic, Dorian began to dabble in the powers of undeath as a means to gain tactical advantage(hence the necromancy). He would practice animating the corpses of fallen foes and allies alike to add to the ranks. While he believed it was not inherently evil, the members of his clergy saw fit to cast him out for profane and unspeakable acts.

-Embittered by his fellows’ scorn and deprived of his divine powers Dorian began to study the nature of death and animation more thoroughly(he uses Divine Magician ACF with only necromancy spells). By dedicating himself to the ideal of exploiting the tenacity and mindless devotion of the undead to uphold the cause of justice(this is where the alignment comes from), he was able to reclaim his divine powers.

-In keeping with his martial training, Dorian adopted the mantle of the Bone Knights of Karrnath, who were powerful commanders of armies of undead minions (I really like this PrC).

-Although he still retains the disciplined nature born of a monastic lifestyle, Dorian believes that an end justifies the means(he has the merciless flaw to reflect unwavering justice). He has no qualms about upholding his values by using undead and dark magic. He believes himself to be far superior to his former comrades, who could not see the value of reanimation in the pursuit of just endeavors(He also has the narcissistic flaw. I feel that his gives him the sense of detatchment that fits his pariah-type character).

Now, I'm not using the flaws to simply gain extra feats. I am new to the game and was introduced to flaws after I had developed the character concept; they perfectly described him. I also really like the interraction with the Merciless flaw. It requires a will save that increases with ECL and when he becomes a Bone Knight he gets a poor will save, this makes it so that as he levels up (and he becomes more detatched from his traditional views) it becomes proportionally harder to make the save, since the DC increases faster than hiss base save.

I would like to keep the caster levels as a reference to his latent desire for power, sublimated by his acts of animation as a means to defeat obstacles (also, I simply like being able to cast more spells, not necissarily higher levels). I may take a few levels in Heirophant for the SLA feature.

I have been somewhat forced into the role of healer, but I would rather focus on BC that negates the need for excessive healing. Also, rather than an undead army I will be using a few awakened/intelligent undead with class levels via Undead Leadership. It breaks immersion when playing a good-ish campaign with my own little zombie apocalypse.

[Chilingsworth]

I haven't read the entire thread, so I hope I'm not repeating too much here, but...

for the skills, try the Human Paragon class, out of Unearthed Arcana, three levels, no prereqs, you lose one caster level, but can choose ten skills as class skills, one of which you can chose to be a permenant class skill, you also gain a bonus feat and a racial ability bonus (+2) of your choice. Also the Able Learner (Races of Destiny) feat reduces the cost of cross-class skills to 1 point/rank, though it has no effect on max ranks.

As for the energy channeling problem, if you're forced to rebuke undead, you''l have to spontaneously cast inflict spells, but as long as you're not evil, you can take the spontaneous healer feat out of Complete Divine. That will allow you to spontaneously cast cure spells a number of times equal to your wisdom bonus each day.

[Coidzor]

I'm suddenly reminded of the Ettin's Riddle when you describe this guy's personality.

He's not still a Heireonite, is he?

Anyway, healing is out of battle maintenance except in emergencies where it's mostly to stabilize someone so you can take care of 'em later, really. I believe the spell "Heal" changes this paradigm somewhat, however.

[Elric VIII]

I haven't read the entire thread, so I hope I'm not repeating too much here, but...

for the skills, try the Human Paragon class, out of Unearthed Arcana, three levels, no prereqs, you lose one caster level, but can choose ten skills as class skills, one of which you can chose to be a permenant class skill, you also gain a bonus feat and a racial ability bonus (+2) of your choice. Also the Able Learner (Races of Destiny) feat reduces the cost of cross-class skills to 1 point/rank, though it has no effect on max ranks.

As for the energy channeling problem, if you're forced to rebuke undead, you''l have to spontaneously cast inflict spells, but as long as you're not evil, you can take the spontaneous healer feat out of Complete Divine. That will allow you to spontaneously cast cure spells a number of times equal to your wisdom bonus each day.

My current build idea uses Human Paragon(I don't think I mentioned this, however), actually. I was wondering if there was a good way to enter Bone Knight without losing another CL.

As for the rebuking/negative energy situation, I believe you're right since the PHB entry on rebuking specifically mentions it is accessed through negative energy.




I'm suddenly reminded of the Ettin's Riddle when you describe this guy's personality.

He's not still a Heireonite, is he?

Anyway, healing is out of battle maintenance except in emergencies where it's mostly to stabilize someone so you can take care of 'em later, really. I believe the spell "Heal" changes this paradigm somewhat, however.

Right now he's dedicated to the cause of bringing justice based on his own code. He belongs to no formal church and is using the 'cleric dedicated to a cuase' variant in the PHB. As for the healing situation, I have to waste spell slots on cure and I'm probobly going to take leadership for a healbot.


"If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select
two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The
restriction on alignment domains still applies."

Also, what is the Ettin's Riddle, a campaign?

[Coidzor]

Right now he's dedicated to the cause of bringing justice based on his own code. He belongs to no formal church and is using the 'cleric dedicated to a cuase' variant in the PHB. As for the healing situation, I have to waste spell slots on cure and I'm probobly going to take leadership for a healbot.


"If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select
two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The
restriction on alignment domains still applies."

Also, what is the Ettin's Riddle, a campaign?

I'd recommend using the party pot to get an appropriate wand, or two, and recommending each party member to acquire belts of healing and the healing armor property (flat cost) from the Magic Item Compendium if it's available. If not, you're still better off just going with the magic wand and maybe some scrolls.

The Ettin's Riddle is a free adventure module that Wizards of the Coast made available on their website. I believe it should still be there on their free modules page for 3.5. He's not a Heireonite though, so, yeah.

[Elric VIII]

I've tried pitching the concept of party money pool, they can't see why they should waste money on healing when they have a cleric. I'm thinking of just going evil/inflict and taking Tomb-Tainted Soul.

[Psyx]

I'd swallow the loss of a CL and probably dive into Human Paragon for the full three levels. Loosing the CL hurts a little, but is made up fairly well by the choice of any 10 skills for class skills, a feat and +2 on a stat. It also gives you a martial weapon proficiency as extra cake-icing.

[kestrel404]

My current build idea uses Human Paragon(I don't think I mentioned this, however), actually. I was wondering if there was a good way to enter Bone Knight without losing another CL.

*Headdesk* The only reason I didn't suggest this first (it's the single most awesome racial paragon class) is because you didn't want to lose CL. Not only can it give you ride as a class skill, it can make it stick permanently.

If you're taking it, I strongly suggest HuParagon 1/Cleric 4/HuParagon +2/Bone Knight 10 as your build. It's entirely worth it to take the extra level and get +2 wisdom, and you can take that first level to get 4+int skills at start, to whichever skills you want to start with.


Right now he's dedicated to the cause of bringing justice based on his own code. He belongs to no formal church and is using the 'cleric dedicated to a cuase' variant in the PHB. As for the healing situation, I have to waste spell slots on cure and I'm probobly going to take leadership for a healbot.

Take undead leadership. It's more suitable and will totally fit into the theme. Then start recruiting LN necropolitans and ghosts.

[Elric VIII]

*Headdesk* The only reason I didn't suggest this first (it's the single most awesome racial paragon class) is because you didn't want to lose CL. Not only can it give you ride as a class skill, it can make it stick permanently.

If you're taking it, I strongly suggest HuParagon 1/Cleric 4/HuParagon +2/Bone Knight 10 as your build. It's entirely worth it to take the extra level and get +2 wisdom, and you can take that first level to get 4+int skills at start, to whichever skills you want to start with.


Don't stress over not suggesting it, this is what I'm currently using, I just thought there might be something better out there.
My current build is looking like HP 1/Clr 3/HP 2/BK 10/(instert cleric PrC here) 4. Other than BAB, is there a reason to take 4 levels of cleric between HP rather than entering BK a level earlier?



Take undead leadership. It's more suitable and will totally fit into the theme. Then start recruiting LN necropolitans and ghosts.

Is this better than just getting normal cohorts and making them into undead via Create Undead?

[kestrel404]

Other than BAB, is there a reason to take 4 levels of cleric between HP rather than entering BK a level earlier?

Nah, you're right. Getting into BK earlier is better.


Is this better than just getting normal cohorts and making them into undead via Create Undead?

Once they're undead, you can't keep them as cohorts - your limit to controlled undead is based on your CL. Undead leadership bypasses that limitation (although you STILL get a controlled undead pool, along with the Bone Knight's extra pool) and allows you to have a mostly-undead army. Also, undead leadership does not require all of your followers to be undead - you can have living followers, but your leadership score is considered to be lower for them.

[Elric VIII]

Once they're undead, you can't keep them as cohorts - your limit to controlled undead is based on your CL. Undead leadership bypasses that limitation (although you STILL get a controlled undead pool, along with the Bone Knight's extra pool) and allows you to have a mostly-undead army. Also, undead leadership does not require all of your followers to be undead - you can have living followers, but your leadership score is considered to be lower for them.

Well, I figured that I would kill a few cohorts off and make them undead to fill up my HD limit, I want to avoid having a large army. I should be able to end up with 3-4 undead with class levels slightly less than mine, since I can control undead of up to 4 x level in HD, and still have a bit left over for whatever else I may need. Or am I completely wrong on my assumptions as to how this works?

[kestrel404]

I think you are confused. When you cast animate dead or create undead, you create vanilla examples of the undead that the spells list that it can create. Animate dead can create creatures with some larger number of HD, but that HD is Undead creature type HD (check the SRD's 'improving monsters' section for specifics), not character class levels or even NPC class levels.

The only way to get undead with NPC or character class levels is for them to be intelligent undead (which you cannot control with your undead pool) who have undergone a transformation process to become undead (lichdom, necropolitan transformation, dying and becoming a ghost, etc.), and then either retaining or gaining levels in those classes. Basically, the GM has to say you get them, or you take the undead leadership feat and start with them (with GM approval).

[Sception]

I agree with those who told you to swallow the level loss. Unless your party is hyper optimized, and your DM designing adventures around that assumption, giving up one level of caster progression to get into your PrC early isn't going to stop a cleric from being awesome. If your DM allows the Human Paragon class, by all means use that. Otherwise, a level dip of fighter for BAB, ride skill, proficiencies, and a feat will get the job done.

As for the healing issue, invest in the wand. You're being expected to fill the healer slot. If someone else was playing a regular cleric type and you were filling the warrior slot, then you wouldn't have to bother. If your party were optimization-minded, they'd know that wands of CLW are a great investment, and that a cleric's spell slots are far better served by other spells anyway, and they'd willingly go in on the investment. But as it is, it isn't worth fighting them over it. Just get the wand out of your own pocket to fix them up between combats.

Check out Libris Mortis for some more good necromancy options, particularly feats like corpse crafter. Check out the spell compendium for some good spells to pick up, particularly Divine Interdiction and Awaken Undead if you ever get to a high enough level to cast it.

Don't take undead leadership unless your DM is willing to house rule your cohort & follower options. Otherwise, if your stuck with the list presented, it's a waste of your time - as you only get standard monster undead and cannot by default add levels to them.

I recommend instead regular leadership, used to recruit a necropolitan cohort (if that template is available from libris Mortis - if your DM desires, you might consider paying for it out of your own pocket, for both yourself and your cohort) and low level human or necropolitan followers to mind the base.

Re: using undead:

1) make sure it's viable in your campaign. If somebody else wants to play a paladin of Pelor, and a third character's parents were killed by vampires, and you're adventuring in a countryside where all the npcs will drop everything to kill you if they hear you raised the dead, then don't play this character at all. It's not fun advice, but take it from someone who's played a lot of necromancers - if everyone else at the table is against it then it's not going to be any fun.

2) assuming it's viable to play a necromancer at all, don't bring armies of the dead to regular adventures. Even with just the base Animate Dead spell, you can have enough undead servants to make the game quite unwieldy, and that's before you invest in rods of undead mastery, or consider the fact that your cohort will likely also have his own AD pool, and even your lowly third level wizard followers and 4th level sorcerer followers can cast command undead, gaining complete control of any excess 20hd skeletons and zombies that your own control pool doesn't cover. I once, for fun, tallied up how many hit dice of servants, living and dead, directly and indirectly, my Dread Necromancer could control if he really set his mind to it. The answer had four digits, and I was only level 14. And that's not even considering the fact that once you have the rebuking power necessary to control a spawning undead with control of its spawn (wight, shadow, wraith), your indirect control pool is literally unlimited.

Unless the entire campaign is focused on mass battles and conquering nations, with each PC bringing an army or league of assassins or some other large organization to the table, that kind of thing just ruins games.

I'm not necessarily saying don't have a large force, but make them a background element, something that you leave to guard your base of operations while you and your companions go out to look for the legendary artifact of legend, or a force you send out to delay the evil army while you and your friends sneak behind enemy lines to take out its dark lord. Honestly, your cohort should probably be focused on utility purposes and stay at the home base as well. Hordes of human skeletons and low level followers are a background element, anyway. They can't actually contribute anything meaningful to combat at the level you get them and only gum things up.


How much should you bring with you? I'd say at most two undead for yourself - a bodyguard and a mount. Then offer each of your companions who wants one a single mount or bodyguard to bring with, and order the undead to follow that player's commands. Now, for mindless undead such an order is possibly outside the bounds of 'simple commands' - and is abusive if you let, say, followers cast command undead on 20hd skeletal dragons then instruct them to follow your orders - but if you aren't abusing it this makes everything run much more smoothly, so your DM should be amenable, but check in advance.

What you don't want is for your turn to take twice as long as the rest of the party's turns put together because you're commanding a bunch of separate action pools. That's why if you bring more then one or two undead you want to let the other characters control them.


What should you bring with you? For mounts, skeletal nightmares are great, particularly if you commission some 'horse barding helmets of disguise' to plop on their heads, letting them look like normal horses in town (they still won't act like normal horses, so be careful stabling them). If you have access to the skeleton dragon and zombie dragon templates from the draconomicon, those also work well (normal skeleton and zombie dragons are pants, so don't bother otherwise). The hollowed out torso of a colossal zombie dragon makes a decent airbus. For bodyguards, I'm a bit more rusty. I recall skeletal ogres, giants, and hydras working well, in addition to the aformentioned dragons. Size is an issue, though, depending on campaign.

For commanded creatures, usually anything you can command is pretty worthless by the time you can control it, but ethereal undead can frequently be useful for utility purposes, and even at mid to high levels you'll occasionally run across an enemy that simply can't hurt them.


Otherwise, you'll likely be limited by what the DM gives you, as you don't have planar binding to summon useful outsiders to kill for parts (and that doesn't work in every campaign anyway, depending on what happens to outsiders when they die on other planes in your game), and you certainly won't be high enough level for the Polymorph Any Object cheese (permanently transform any corpse into any other corpse, a necromancer's dream come true). Memorize the skeleton and zombie templates, and keep an eye out for worthy animation targets among the monsters you slay.

[Elric VIII]

Alright, I think I see where I had the problem. I found some templates in Dragon magazine for the various create undead creatues so I assumed that they kept their levels. It seemed since ghouls, etc have an Int score that they would remember being my ally and would continue to serve under me (I would basically convince my cohorts to become undead to gain power).

I'll look into undead leadership, I really like the flavor aspect of it. One thing, however, does corpsecrafter apply or does it just assume that you find the undead wandering down the street and recruit them?

[kestrel404]

Corpsecrafter only applies when you actually use a spell to make someone undead. I think that if YOU were the person to carry out a necropolitan transformation ritual, you could convince your GM that it applies (along with whatever corpsecrafter based feats you have).

This means you can't get corpsecrafted ghosts (since there's no spell to make them), and any undead who shows up as a recruit will lack that bonus as well, but any being you make with create undead and then recruit with leadership can get the bonus.

I especially like the initiative bonus feat and the extra cold damage feat - the first is always good to have on an army and the second is great for zombie lions (who make great mounts for necropolitan paladins of tyranny).

[Elric VIII]

As for the healing issue, invest in the wand.

I always just end up crafting wands since I tend to get more RP exp anyway.



Check out Libris Mortis for some more good necromancy options, particularly feats like corpse crafter. Check out the spell compendium for some good spells to pick up, particularly Divine Interdiction and Awaken Undead if you ever get to a high enough level to cast it.

I had already planned on taking Corpsecrafter, but Awaken is only Wizard or Domain, but that means I gan get a scroll for the 1-2 times I will be casting it.


Don't take undead leadership unless your DM is willing to house rule your cohort & follower options. Otherwise, if your stuck with the list presented, it's a waste of your time - as you only get standard monster undead and cannot by default add levels to them.
This was the problem I had hoped to solve with the templates for undead that I found.


I recommend instead regular leadership, used to recruit a necropolitan cohort (if that template is available from libris Mortis - if your DM desires, you might consider paying for it out of your own pocket, for both yourself and your cohort) and low level human or necropolitan followers to mind the base.
I had considered necropolitan as it was rather easily applied to anything.


make sure it's viable in your campaign. Although it's not an inherently evil campaign, I'm not going to be an inherently evil necromancer. As per my character's motivation he is just misguided.


assuming it's viable to play a necromancer at all, don't bring armies of the dead to regular adventures.
My main idea was to have a small amount of (1-4) undead companions that were mostly martially oriented to both save time during rounds and to give them an excuse to disguise themselves in heavy armor (I will probobly make them non-caster variant evil paladins to take advantage of the aura of despair.). I essentially want them to be undead for flavor reasons, not to skip merrily around with an undead horde at my command.

Thank you for the advice.

[Sception]

corpse crafter applies to undead you create yourself. the necropolitan ritual is conducted primarily by mindless zombies. I don't think you could get the corpse crafter bonus there. Additionally, it's clearly not intended or balanced, so I'd avoid it. Further, it is never conducted by the subject to be transformed into a necropolitan, so you certainly can't apply your own corpse crafter bonus to yourself. You could theoretically desecrate the ground where the process is conducted, though.

On a practical level, it sounds like the DM is already skeptical - I wouldn't recommend trying to push things in this manner.


As for undead leadership - it's perfectly fine if the DM lets you use creatures not on the list (necropolitans in place of 2 or 3 HD skeleton followers, ghouls or wights with class levels or necropolitans as cohorts), but otherwise I would just stick to regular old leadership.

Besides, the original character idea in this thread was a leader of men who sought to supplement the forces of justice with undead, not replace them, from what I can tell. You'll have enough undead for that theme between rebuking, animate dead, and class features of yourself and your cohort, but without regular leadership you won't have the living defenders of justice to go along with them.

[Sception]

Iirc, by default Undead leadership does not allow you to select any creatures not on the specific list it offers as cohorts or followers. Ie, you can take the 'ghoul' monster, but not a ghoul with class levels or a ghoulish template creature or another undead of similar CR & HD. It's a very specific list, and is not populated with useful choices, particularly since it specifically forbids chain-control spawnings (the spawn must be controllable as followers, but their ECL is too great to be followers at all).

On the other hand, the regular leadership feat specifically calls out that other creatures or even monsters can be substituted in via DM permission - which means that everything Undead Leadership can do can already be done better by Regular leadership.

If your DM allows you to take both feats it might be worth considering, but you should really never bother with Undead Leadership before Regular Leadership from a mechanical standpoint.


Now most DMs who allow any brand of leadership at all will allow you to substitute other creatures into the list, or let you add class levels as appropriate for your cohort, so it's not as much of an issue as I might be making it out to be. But even so, I'd still take regular leadership first.

[Elric VIII]

Besides, the original character idea in this thread was a leader of men who sought to supplement the forces of justice with undead, not replace them, from what I can tell. You'll have enough undead for that theme between rebuking, animate dead, and class features of yourself and your cohort, but without regular leadership you won't have the living defenders of justice to go along with them.

Don't my party members count for anything?

But yes, you are right. The original way I interpreted leadership was that cohorts that were made undead were moved over to my undead HD pool and I could still have living followers in the leadership pool.

I think if I use Undead Leadership for undead cohorts and living followers I should be able to get what I want by raising undead and myself and taking them with the leadership. Although, Necropolitan seems like a viable option as well and I'm pretty sure I can get the Corpsecrafter to work if I am the leader of the ritual.

I should also mention that my DM is the owner of our copy of Libris Mortis, so he's less skeptical about that than the Bone Knight. He's also realtively sure, with good reason, that I won't be abusing leadership.

EDIT: IIRC cohorts gain exp equal to (your exp)*(their ECL)/(your ECL) after you initially recruit them. I would assume that this extends to undead leadership, just advancing the creaures by the methods in the MM.

[Sception]

I think if I use Undead Leadership for undead cohorts and living followers I should be able to get what I want by raising undead and myself and taking them with the leadership. Although, Necropolitan seems like a viable option as well and I'm pretty sure I can get the Corpsecrafter to work if I am the leader of the ritual.

Remember that you can't be the leader of your own ritual if you become a necropolitan yourself.

Otherwise, regular leadership already lets you get an undead cohort and living followers - while Undead Leadership doesn't without house rules. Why bother your DM for house rules when you could just use regular leadership for what you want?


I should also mention that my DM is the owner of our copy of Libris Mortis, so he's less skeptical about that than the Bone Knight. He's also realtively sure, with good reason, that I won't be abusing leadership.

Sounds good then. It doesn't really matter which feat you use, both your DM and you seem to know what you want to use it for and understand that you won't be abusing it.

Did you say what you wanted for your cohort? A simple wizard (necropolitan or otherwise) would probably be the most useful for your group - able to deliver utility spells like teleport and fly and whatnot as needed by the campaign. Of course, if you just want to maximize your undead forces, you can't do better then a Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror.

[/quote]EDIT: IIRC cohorts gain exp equal to (your exp)*(their ECL)/(your ECL) after you initially recruit them. I would assume that this extends to undead leadership, just advancing the creaures by the methods in the MM.[/QUOTE]

Many undead don't advance in the monster manual, and those on the undead leadership chart that do advance by Hit Dice, not by class level, dramatically reducing their utility. Bringing a ghoul or wight with you on adventures doesn't really offer much of use. They don't fight well in combat by the time you can get them. If it's key to your concept then go with it, sure. But otherwise, do consider a necropolitan wizard who stays home and minds the castle when not supplying useful utility spells to the party.

Of course, if your DM lets your undead cohort advance by class level then everything's fine. They cone with a pretty high ECL, so put them into a non caster class in that case.

[Elric VIII]

So, I think I'm going to go with necropolitan/normal leadership. Thanks.

[Pechvarry]

I've tried pitching the concept of party money pool, they can't see why they should waste money on healing when they have a cleric. I'm thinking of just going evil/inflict and taking Tomb-Tainted Soul.

This is growing to become my worst nightmare. A good read for your fellow PCs:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_(And,_why_you_will_be_J ust_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal)

Though you have to change their mindset enough just to read it.

[Coidzor]

I've tried pitching the concept of party money pool, they can't see why they should waste money on healing when they have a cleric. I'm thinking of just going evil/inflict and taking Tomb-Tainted Soul.

Because cleric spell slots are more useful to the party in combat and in emergencies than in healing outside of combat where there are all sorts of other options.

And if they think it's wasting money for the party to pay for the wand, then you won't waste money on it either and they can enjoy not getting healed up between fights at all.

After all, buying the wand is paying for their healing. If they don't buy into the health care plan, you have no obligation to treat them.

[Pechvarry]

After all, buying the wand is paying for their healing. If they don't buy into the health care plan, you have no obligation to treat them.

I've just decided that would be an excellent character to play in a group like that. I would totally make a Cleric obsessed with "being his own man", entrepreneurial to the extreme, and all that.

[Elric VIII]

I just want to ask one last thing before I believe this thread will have provided me all that I need.

At level 8 of Bone Knight, I become immune to energy drain. I want to take this opportunity to use the Lifedrinker specific magic weapon, but as a +1 greataxe, it will easily become obsolete. So my question is, are you allowed to augment swpecific weapons further and do their abilities have a specific enhancement bonus cost?

The ability, by my calculations costs:
40,320(full cost) - 2,000(+1 enhancement) - 320(masterwork greataxe) = 38,000

This doesn't match up with any of the normal enhancement costs. While I know that there are some armor qualities that ad only a gp cost and not an enhancement bonus, I don't see any of those for weapons. Is there a way to make this weapon better as I gain more wealth?