Double Weapons?

[Admiral Squish]

So, looking at double weapons, I fail to see the appeal. TWF is already sub-par. Double weapons just seem unnecessary, doubly so, seeing how many of them are exotic, costing EXTRA feats. So, what's the point? why would you get a double weapon?

Some vague ideas I've had to try and fix this underused weapon set:

1.5 str to damage, even when using it double.
If that's too much, at least full str on the off-hand.
Shield bonus to AC, or maybe double the AC bonus from fighting defensively.

[Ernir]

My theoretical "fix" would be to let a double weapon be enhanced as if it were one weapon.

[SilverLeaf167]

The separate enchantments on the ends have their good sides, too: for example, a fiend-slayer could get both silver and cold iron to always have the appropriate weapon for the enemy.

[Zeofar]

Normal strength to the off-hand and the option of enchanting separately or individually (at any point in time; you can enchant each end separately at one time, and then apply an enchantment to both sides at another given that it would cost the same to apply the enchantment to each side individually when you enchant both at once) is the fix I prefer. Giving some bonuses to AC would probably be okay.

(To be specific, no, they aren't worth using without any fixes.)

[Coidzor]

Well, for a spellcaster, it lets one have two-weapon fighting active and cast spells without having to drop a weapon.

[Kelb_Panthera]

For all practical purposes, they're inferior to their alternatives, namely: oversized twf (same feat investment but you get bigger dice and can power attack with both hands) and two-handed fighting (superior to all forms of twf, if only just.) Double weapons are just a style choice. If you're going for optimal power pick a nice fat two-hander, otherwise, pick what's cool. Two-bladed swords are just plain cool. Orc double axes are a tad wierd, but still cool. Using a staff as a double weapon doesn't require extra feat investment and has a very classical feel. The dwarven urgrosh and gnome hook-hammer can help to give your dwarven/gnomish character a little extra racial identity. Etc. Etc.

[Tam_OConnor]

I'm more of the opinion that the vast majority of double weapons are fairly silly (quarterstaff being the only one that isn't too crazy), and so I don't need to do much to encourage them. The concept isn't bad, but the problem isn't with double weapons exactly, but with exotic weapons and two weapon fighting as a whole. But if you want double weapons to be actually worth the Exotic Weapon feat, then full strength on both sides is a bare minimum. Does privilege the quarterstaff over the light mace, but the quarterstaff doesn't have the Lightning Maces feat, so...

[Escheton]

Its a twohanded weapon right? So you get double dmg from powerattack, and steadfast boots and such work right?
So both dualwield and twohanded feats apply, usually.
If not, good fix right there.

[Greenish]

So, looking at double weapons, I fail to see the appeal. TWF is already sub-par. Double weapons just seem unnecessary, doubly so, seeing how many of them are exotic, costing EXTRA feats. So, what's the point? why would you get a double weapon?Because you're a proud and fierce Valenar warrior!

That is to say, Revenant Blade. :smallwink:

[Escheton]

Because you're a proud and fierce Valenar warrior!

That is to say, Revenant Blade. :smallwink:

on that note: Eye of Gruumsh

[Urpriest]

on that note: Eye of Gruumsh

Actually, there's not much point to an Eye of Gruumsh actually using the Orc Double-Axe as anything other than a two-hander.

[Escheton]

Unless he took 2 lvls of ranger and a pouncing barb lvl during the lvls before becoming an EoG...

[Draz74]

The quarterstaff is a pretty great weapon for a warrior who can use it either to Power Attack (when he only gets one attack) or TWF (when he gets a full attack) interchangably.

This could apply, for example, to (1) a Ranger who always fights the same types of enemies, and therefore gets a lot of bonus damage from Favored Enemy; (2) a Warblade who uses Tiger Claw to make TWF worthwhile; (3) a Rogue type who gets a big attack roll bonus from somewhere miscellaneous (Knowledge Devotion? persisted Wraithstrike cheese?).

I haven't found a situation where an exotic weapon didn't seem like a poor choice, though. Even if you're making a Darth Maul clone (who was probably the original inspiration for the existence of the double sword weapon), his fighting style was really based on staff-fighting martial arts, so I'd rather model his lightsaber as a Brilliant Energy Quarterstaff rather than a Brilliant Energy Double Sword. :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

The real beauty of double weapons is simply a technical interpretation. Exotic Weapon Master has a couple of abilities that can really work out to your advantage when you are using a double weapon...not as a double weapon.

First, take a look at Flurry of Strikes. It allows you to make a flurry attack (extra attack at highest BAB, all attacks that round suffer a -2 penalty). It doesn't say that you have to be TWFing with the double weapon. Thus, you can use one end of the weapon as a 2handed weapon, get your 1.5x or 2x +str (see below) and 2:1 PA, and make extra attacks. For the low low cost of 2 points of PA (+4 damage), you get to make a WHOLE NOTHER ATTACK, with all of the bonuses that come with it. Extra effective if your weapon has an "on hit" ability like Wounding.

The other EWM ability you can poach is Uncanny Blow. Uncanny Blow stats that when you are using a 1handed exotic in both hands, you get 2x +str bonus instead of the normal 1.5x. So, we go to the quote below, specifically the bolded statement:

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
So...apparently you can use a double weapon in one hand? Interesting. That qualifies it under the first clause. Since you are using it in both hands, it is then catagorized as a 1handed exotic in both hands. BAM! 2x +str bonus, AND an extra attack to milk even more damage out of the weapon.

I actually made a build a while back who's an optimized Urgrosh wielder. Was pretty effective.

[Urpriest]

The real beauty of double weapons is simply a technical interpretation. Exotic Weapon Master has a couple of abilities that can really work out to your advantage when you are using a double weapon...not as a double weapon.

First, take a look at Flurry of Strikes. It allows you to make a flurry attack (extra attack at highest BAB, all attacks that round suffer a -2 penalty). It doesn't say that you have to be TWFing with the double weapon. Thus, you can use one end of the weapon as a 2handed weapon, get your 1.5x or 2x +str (see below) and 2:1 PA, and make extra attacks. For the low low cost of 2 points of PA (+4 damage), you get to make a WHOLE NOTHER ATTACK, with all of the bonuses that come with it. Extra effective if your weapon has an "on hit" ability like Wounding.

The other EWM ability you can poach is Uncanny Blow. Uncanny Blow stats that when you are using a 1handed exotic in both hands, you get 2x +str bonus instead of the normal 1.5x. So, we go to the quote below, specifically the bolded statement:

So...apparently you can use a double weapon in one hand? Interesting. That qualifies it under the first clause. Since you are using it in both hands, it is then catagorized as a 1handed exotic in both hands. BAM! 2x +str bonus, AND an extra attack to milk even more damage out of the weapon.

I actually made a build a while back who's an optimized Urgrosh wielder. Was pretty effective.

IIRC that statement is referring to a larger character wielding a smaller weapon. Wouldn't that imply that treating a double weapon as a one-handed weapon requires you to be of a larger size category than the weapon is built for, and thus take the appropriate penalties?

[Ilmryn]

Don't double weapons count as two-handed? I can't think of any rule stating that double weapons don't count as two handed.

[Incanur]

The versatility of being able to used it a two-handed weapon when desired for 1.5x Str and better Power Attack helps. Not necessarily worth a feat, but the dwarven urgrosh ain't terrible for dwarves.

[Yuki Akuma]

Don't double weapons count as two-handed? I can't think of any rule stating that double weapons don't count as two handed.

Double weapons count as two-handed when used as a single weapon. When used for TWF, they count as a one-handed and light weapon.

[Greenish]

Double weapons have space for two wand chambers. With two quarterstaves, you could hold four wands at the same time, though this has rather limited applications.

[Rainbownaga]

So you can annoy your dm by suggesting that it is almost a triple weapon?

As mentioned before it is the combined problem with both TWF and exotic weapons both being underpowered: anyone who wants two-weapon fighting probably has a lot of bonus damage which means that critical threat range isn't as important and can just use a quaterstaff, or is dex-focused and can just use two weapons since the extra .5 strength on a charge isn't relevant.

Either way the

My only rational thought is that it can be used to hold a defending enchantment and just weilded as a two hander.

My personal opinion is to leave it as-is and make it a feat-tax for wielding a particularly powerful artifact, or used as a curious weapon of a strange race (as the gnome and dwarves already have; maybe throw an elf sub-race the double sword

[stabbitty death]

why use double weapons? Because thier awesome looking, well most of them anyway:smallannoyed: (I'm looking at you gyrspike arms and equipment guide pg. 9)

[Incanur]

I find the majority of them absurd. The dire flail and double axe? Come on. The urgrosh at least vaguely mimics historical polearms, which often had a butt spike.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, you can wield a double weapon in one hand, you just have to chose one end of it to use for all of your attacks that round, as opposed to using them interchangeably when you wield it as a two handed weapon. If you wield a double weapon when using the twf rules you designate one end as your primary and one end as your off hand.

[Shade Kerrin]

OA's Kusari-Gama is quite a nice double weapon. Can optionally be used as a slashing or bludgeoning spiked chain instead of the double, and has the added advantage of actually making sense(except when using the slashing part for reach, but that problem's in no way limited to D&D's depiction)

[Greenish]

used as a curious weapon of a strange race (as the gnome and dwarves already have; maybe throw an elf sub-race the double swordValenar elves gain free proficiency for Valenar Double Scimitar.

They also have access to Revenant Blade PrC, which bears mentioning again. It's a quite easy to enter 5 level melee PrC that gets three floating feats (from a rather short list, though), other minor stuff and as the capstone has Legendary Force.

Legendary Force allows you to treat both ends of your double scimitar as two-handed weapons. Yes, 1.5xStr and 2:1 PA returns for both ends.

[Zen Master]

Valenar elves gain free proficiency for Valenar Double Scimitar.

They also have access to Revenant Blade PrC, which bears mentioning again. It's a quite easy to enter 5 level melee PrC that gets three floating feats (from a rather short list, though), other minor stuff and as the capstone has Legendary Force.

Legendary Force allows you to treat both ends of your double scimitar as two-handed weapons. Yes, 1.5xStr and 2:1 PA returns for both ends.

Wow .... that's like - crazy good. For melee stuff.

My thought was that any double weapon can be wielded as a two-handed weapon - using only one end. And naturally, it can also be used for dual-wield.

But that valenar stuff is way better.