Need another 1 level dip

[BeholderSlayer]

Figured it out, thanks!

Putting together a caster sorcerer, need another 1 level dip. The idea for this character is to be a draconic/cold-focused character with a good deal of power as well. Late in his career he began exploring the power of fire.

All my feats are spent. Here's what I have so far, classes as full breakdown in no particular order yet:

Venerable White Dragonspawn Phrenic Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold
4 Dragonblood Sorcerer/1 Mindbender/10 Incantrix/1 Sanctified One of Kord/1 Elemental Savant/Dragonheart Mage 2/[Need this class] 1

4 Dragonblood Sorcerer/10 Incantrix/1 Sanctified One of Kord/Dragonheart Mage 4

3 - Dragonwrought, Eschew Materials, Snowcasting, Cold Focus, Greater Cold Focus, Extend Spell, Obtain Familiar, Improved Familiar (Psuedodragon), Craft Contingent Spell

Otyugh Hole (Iron Will)

Incantrix: Persist Spell, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Energy Substitution (Fire)

Dragonheart Mage: Draconic Power(White), Draconic Aura (Senses)

Draconic Auras: Senses, Energy: Cold

By using Snowcasting to give all spells the [Cold] subtype Cold Focus, Greater Cold Focus, and Draconic Power give all his spells +3 DC. He'll also use Draconic Aura from being a dragon to give all his spells, in the same way, +4 DC. He will also utilize Icemail Armor to pick up yet another +2 DC to all spells. Also, using the above and Santified One of Kord makes all his damage dealing spells irresistable divine damage. Any dip that might boost a DC, grant extra spells, or give a good damage boost would be nice. Unfortunately all my feats are set in stone.

[HunterOfJello]

The current dipping thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178480)may be relevent.

[BeholderSlayer]

The current dipping thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178480)may be relevent.

Thanks, I'll look through that in a few.

I'd considered trying to take Dragonheart Mage up, but I'd need to get to 4th level and pick up another Draconic feat, and I'd probably take Draconic Aura rather than give up a spell slot to pick it up as a dragon. I'd probably have to give up Mindbender, which wouldn't be a huge deal since my familiar will have telepathy and Mindsight.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Holy crap! That's got to be one ridiculously powerful character. Are the other PC's in the group that optimized?

[BeholderSlayer]

I think I've decided to drop Mindbender and Elemental Savant, and instead of using Elemental Savant to reduce spells metamagic'd with Energy Substitution to a standard action, I'll just use persistent Arcane Spellsurge instead.


Holy crap! That's got to be one ridiculously powerful character. Are the other PC's in the group that optimized?

Yep, that's how my group rolls. :smallbiggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

Venerable White Dragonspawn Phrenic Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold
4 Dragonblood Sorcerer/1 Mindbender/10 Incantrix/1 Sanctified One of Kord/1 Elemental Savant/Dragonheart Mage 2/[Need this class] 1

3 - Dragonwrought, Eschew Materials, Snowcasting, Cold Focus, Greater Cold Focus, Extend Spell, Obtain Familiar, Improved Familiar (Psuedodragon), Craft Contingent Spell

By using Snowcasting to give all spells the [Cold] subtype Cold Focus, Greater Cold Focus, and Draconic Power give all his spells +3 DC. He'll also use Draconic Aura from being a dragon to give all his spells, in the same way, +4 DC. He will also utilize Icemail Armor to pick up yet another +2 DC to all spells. Also, using the above and Santified One of Kord makes all his damage dealing spells irresistable divine damage. Any dip that might boost a DC, grant extra spells, or give a good damage boost would be nice. Unfortunately all my feats are set in stone.
Cheesetastic. I don't know of a single DM who wouldn't have problems with this.

Snowcasting only works if you actually add ice or snow to a spell's components. Eschew Materials lets you skip material components, so you can definitely cast the spell; however, you're still skipping the optional ice or snow so no [Cold] descriptor or any optional benefits if you fail to add the optional components. You'd better carry a big ice chest around with you.

Dragonwrought gives you dragon type, and can only be had at character creation. Since Dragonspawn is an acquired template it must come later, and then changes your type to monstrous humanoid. When you add Dragonwrought you gain the dragon type but lose your dragonblood subtype, and you don't gain that subtype back if your type changes later. Loredrake is a sovereign archetype for dragons, and monstrous humanoids definitely don't qualify (in particular, the Loredrake penalty of reduction to d10 hit dice is an upgrade from the monstrous humanoid d8 HD). As a monstrous humanoid without the dragonblood subtype you also don't qualify to enter Dragonblood Sorcerer.

Then there's the religion issue. Worship of the Thir faith and pursuit of the Loredrake Sovereign archetype requires emulating one of the two granting Sovereigns (Aureon, The Shadow). This is incompatible with the worship of Kord, and the alignment requirements of Sanctified One (same alignment as Kord = CG, where Aureon = LN and The Shadow = CE) prevents any who emulate the alignment of a Loredrake Sovereign from becoming a Sanctified One of Kord.

And of course the whole setting mish-mash. Dragonspawn is Krynn-specific, Loredrake is Eberron-specific, and Kord is the Suel god of Athletics, Sports, Storms, Brawling, Strength, and Courage in Greyhawk. Most DMs frown on mixing two different D&D worlds. You've got three (unless I missed some Faerûn-specific elements :smallwink:).

[SurlySeraph]

You did, Incantatrix. But, as BeholderSlayer says, that's how his group rolls. If they're having fun, that's the important part.

[BeholderSlayer]

Cheesetastic. I don't know of a single DM who wouldn't have problems with this.
Looks like you found one.


Snowcasting only works if you actually add ice or snow to a spell's components. Eschew Materials lets you skip material components, so you can definitely cast the spell; however, you're still skipping the optional ice or snow so no [Cold] descriptor or any optional benefits if you fail to add the optional components. You'd better carry a big ice chest around with you.
That depends on how you interpret it. Guess which one we use?


Dragonwrought gives you dragon type, and can only be had at character creation. Since Dragonspawn is an acquired template it must come later, and then changes your type to monstrous humanoid. When you add Dragonwrought you gain the dragon type but lose your dragonblood subtype, and you don't gain that subtype back if your type changes later. Loredrake is a sovereign archetype for dragons, and monstrous humanoids definitely don't qualify (in particular, the Loredrake penalty of reduction to d10 hit dice is an upgrade from the monstrous humanoid d8 HD). As a monstrous humanoid without the dragonblood subtype you also don't qualify to enter Dragonblood Sorcerer.
Character creation dictates that racial bonuses occur before adding class levels. Additionally, application of templates states that an acquired template may be added at any time. There is also a rule that states that a player ought to be able to apply templates and types in the way that most benefits the player (can't remember the source right now, but it's out there). Again, it all depends how you read it. Guess how my group has decided to read this? You betcha.

In this case, it goes: Humanoid [Dragonblood]->Monstrous Humanoid [Dragonblood]-> Dragon -> Dragon [Dragonblood] -> Dragon [Dragonblood, Psionic]

As a side note, if I really wanted to go incredible cheese I'd abuse Dragonspawn Abomination for +10 sorcerer levels rather than just the +4 I have.


Then there's the religion issue. Worship of the Thir faith and pursuit of the Loredrake Sovereign archetype requires emulating one of the two granting Sovereigns (Aureon, The Shadow). This is incompatible with the worship of Kord, and the alignment requirements of Sanctified One (same alignment as Kord = CG, where Aureon = LN and The Shadow = CE) prevents any who emulate the alignment of a Loredrake Sovereign from becoming a Sanctified One of Kord.
My group thinks a lot of the "special" requirements for PrC's and religious requirements in general are stupid and boring. If something is for a particular religion or alignment and you want it? Refluff it.


And of course the whole setting mish-mash. Dragonspawn is Krynn-specific, Loredrake is Eberron-specific, and Kord is the Suel god of Athletics, Sports, Storms, Brawling, Strength, and Courage in Greyhawk. Most DMs frown on mixing two different D&D worlds. You've got three (unless I missed some Faerûn-specific elements :smallwink:).
My group doesn't play any particular setting. We play a homebrew mis-mash of all of them.

I had a feeling somebody was gonna come in and protest. It's important to note that not all groups play the same way. I wouldn't have bothered putting this together if I didn't know for a fact that it'd fly at my table.

[Curmudgeon]

Character creation dictates that racial bonuses occur before adding class levels.
Racial bonuses aren't at issue here. Your race starts as Kobold and never changes.

Additionally, application of templates states that an acquired template may be added at any time.
There's no such rule for templates that I've found. Consult the Monster Manual section on Templates (pages 291-293), and you won't see a statement like that.

Perhaps some other WotC sources can help, such as this quote from Rules of the Game: Types and Templates (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060711a)

Acquired templates reflect changes a creature undergoes after its birth. From Races of the Dragon on page 37:
Ixen opened the satchel and looked inside. Within was an egg she had laid, a dragonwrought egg, a blessing bestowed on some female kobolds. The egg was quite mature now, showing a greater number of azure spots than it had the previous day. Inside the shell grew a kobold of dragon heritage blood whose birth would be a boon to all kobolds. The character creation Dragonwrought feat applies to the Kobold before birth. You may only apply an acquired template like Dragonspawn after birth.

[BeholderSlayer]

Quoting fluff and claiming that it's pertinent to the RAW isn't exactly good form in a mechanics discussion. May it not be intended? Sure. Does that mean it matters to my group? No. I thought everybody knew that. There's no reason that you can't have manifested your Dragonwrought qualities after birth, similar to the Abyssal Heritor feats.


Some templates can be added to creatures anytime.
Uh huh.

I am not going to have this discussion yet again on this board. Dragonspawn + Dragonwrought + Loredrake works at somebody's table. You're just going to have to accept that. It's never going to change my group. You're welcome to play it however you want, but you have to respect others' right to interpret things their way too.

Furthermore, Dragonspawn doesn't really matter that much anyway. It's not essential to the character. Taking it out would only reduce my sorcerer level by 1, and possibly force me to do a class shuffle for the order of classes (though I doubt it). I'd end up at sorcerer level 21 rather than 22. Since I automatically qualify for Dragonheart Mage, it doesn't affect much of anything.