Simultaneity in 3.5 D&D

[Incanur]

I've come to the conclusion that initiative system this is one of the things that bothers me the most about RAW combat in 3.x. Getting six seconds worth of actions before the opposition does anything if you win that Dex check goes a long way toward making battle an all-or-nothing affair. The more actors involved, the weirder it gets. I'm sure you've all experienced cases of party tactics that would have taken much longer or fail completely under normal time.

For a simple example, the sorcerer casts color spray to knock an orc unconscious and the adjacent rogue then performs a coup de grace. Casting color spray takes three or four seconds and a coup de grace takes six, but this combo only took six seconds total.

The PHB or DMG (I can't recall which) has an example of on-demand simultaneity at the DM's discretion. How profoundly would it change the game if I invoked normal time liberally? The Shock Trooper trick, for instance, wouldn't be as much fun if the victim got in a single attack even if you killed them. What do y'all think?

[GoatBoy]

It's DMG, page 24.

Initiative is a tricky business, and one of the areas where the D&D rules deviate the furthest from what one would expect from "reality" for the sake of simplicity.

I'm not sure what you mean by using simultaneity as the DMG suggests... do you mean you'll just rule on the fly in certain situations where you think the normal rules don't make logical sense? This does help the sense of immersion, but I'd be prepared for a lot of arguments when things don't go the way the players want. If you thought arguments about interpreting the rules were bad, wait until you throw speculative reality into the mix.

My personal favourite variant for the initiative system is to just declare the "party's turn." That is, roll for initiative normally and act as normal for the first round of combat, but after that, simply tell the part that it is their turn and they can act in whatever order they like. This does raise the concern of what to do when there are multiple monsters with varying Initiative checks, but I just delay them to sync them up. A bit of a handicap on the DM's part, but if I'm going to a more realistic feel then it works out.

[Baveboi]

One thing that I've done as a DM was to consider that everything took to the turn's end to actually happen.

Ex: Wizard cast Color Spray and the orc falls asleep. The rogue can't move in and make his coup de grace this round because the orc isn't affected by the Color Spray just yet. The effect of Color Spray will only kick in when the next round begins.

I used that a lot with No-Initiative Clockwise games, where we had 3 to 4 players but dozens of key enemies and important characters doing roundabouts.

[Incanur]

I'm not sure what you mean by using simultaneity as the DMG suggests... do you mean you'll just rule on the fly in certain situations where you think the normal rules don't make logical sense?

Exactly that. They want 3.5 D&D; that's what the group has experience with. The DMG gives me a precedent to temper the absurdity caused by pure RAW combat timing so I want to use it.


This does help the sense of immersion, but I'd be prepared for a lot of arguments when things don't go the way the players want. If you thought arguments about interpreting the rules were bad, wait until you throw speculative reality into the mix.

Yes, that could be a problem. I didn't impose such restrictions last time we gamed together; goofy tricks happened fairly often. But the brief campaign I'll be running involves low-level (5th) characters and focuses on intrigue and exploration rather than killing monsters. That's why I think it might work.


Ex: Wizard cast Color Spray and the orc falls asleep. The rogue can't move in and make his coup de grace this round because the orc isn't affected by the Color Spray just yet. The effect of Color Spray will only kick in when the next round begins.

Excellent. That's similar to what I would do. :smallsmile:

[Frenchy147]

Ex: Wizard cast Color Spray and the orc falls asleep. The rogue can't move in and make his coup de grace this round because the orc isn't affected by the Color Spray just yet. The effect of Color Spray will only kick in when the next round begins.

If the wizard is going before the orc, it would make more sense if the orc lost his move action, and could only make standard, minor, and free actions until the next round.

[Baveboi]

If the wizard is going before the orc, it would make more sense if the orc lost his move action, and could only make standard, minor, and free actions until the next round.

True.
It was a noob party so I always gave the initiative to them so they could learn to debuff and kill the weakest so they can't act. Lesson well learned when they fought the BBEG orc for three rounds before figuring that the cleric healing him was probly a best target... :smallsigh:

The things I sign up for...

[Mastikator]

I've heard that Exhalted uses a very good simultaneous combat system. Perhaps something worth looking into?

[JonestheSpy]

I split up move actions and standard actions - more to keep track of, but the extra realism is worth it. So if someone wins initiative and then moves, they have to wait for everyone else to take an action before initiating a standard action. So no running up to somebody and then hitting them while they stand there paralyzed waiting for you - they get to react.

I don't mess with full-round actions, though -it would be too confusing, plus it helps out the melee fighters some.

[Fortuna]

I've heard that Exhalted uses a very good simultaneous combat system. Perhaps something worth looking into?

It relies on different actions having different Speed, which you'll need to build into D&D from scratch. Also, if you look into it, nothing ever goes below Speed 3. Not even then. No. Non-Reflexive. Actions. Below. Speed. 3.

[Incanur]

Thank y'all for the suggestions, but I'm not looking to extensively rework 3.5 D&D; if it were up to me I'd just use my own system. Because of the circumstances I want to play the same game we were playing before, only with the craziness dialed down a notch or two. Going so far as to fully explore the implications of simultaneous action for spellcasting could potentially be too much of a nerf even for tier 1 classes like the wizard.

Player: "Having won initiative, I move up thirty feet and cast color spray on the goblins."

DM: "The goblins move up and attack as you're casting." (Rolls some dice.) "I would ask you to make a concentration check but don't worry about it because you're already dead."

That would go a long way toward realizing the fragility of casters at lower levels, but it's hardly proper D&D. In general, monsters would become considerably more dangerous under full simultaneity. I feel I should say roughly within the spirit of the concept given the DMG. Getting enough of a jump on somebody to take them out with a storm of attacks strains credibility less than the long strings dependent actions you sometimes see at the table. Those are really what I want to avoid.

[GoatBoy]

IIRC, AD&D had all combatants declare actions first, then the results were calculated in order of initiative. This was more realistic, but really, really slow.

Maybe just warn your players that certain actions will not have the usual results under what you're hoping to be a more realistic system. Maybe let them know ahead of time what will and won't work to avoid hurt feelings, and perhaps find ways of having your system work in the players' favour just as often, if not more so.

Best of luck and I hope your plan works well for everyone.

[Zephyros]

Which gets even more complicated with readied actions... I remember arguing with a player 'cause he wanted to ready an action to shoot the fireball bead.:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Mafusael]

I use my homerules for simultaneity in 3.5 D&D combat.

Why I want it in my games:
- due to a turn-based initiative a spotlight moves from you to another Player completely. You may lose interest in the battle, check your phone, etc;
- turn-based initiative encourages individualism and independent actions in battle that are harmful to the party's command work;
- extremely unrealistic battles, as characters are quietly waiting for their turn or fate (For a simple example, the sorcerer casts color spray to knock an orc unconscious and rogue that adjacent to orc performs a coup de grace. Casting color spray takes standard action and a coup de grace takes round, but this combo only took six seconds total);
- changes on the battlefield force you to reconsider your actions again and again, especially just before the turn. It's time consuming and annoying for other players;
- due to the fact that casters can make more troubles by standard action than non-casters there is an imbalance of magic and brute force;
- due to shift from player to player the narrative style of combat description becomes poor, causing to lost integrity sense, beauty and madness of battle.

Alternative Simultaneous Combat System (SCS) is a set of rules:
● No initiative checks. Round is 2 phases. All actions within it occur simultaneously.
● Phase includes move action, standard action or a part of full action (standard and the rest).
● Swift action occurs between phases. Free and immediate actions occurs at any time.
● If triggered action hasn't occur, "Ready" action becomes "Delay" action, which is nonaction.
● In first combat round, flat-footed are those whose initiative is lower than yours.
● At the start of each round, for 1-2 minutes, Players determine PC intentions and Master - NPCs.
● Effects of standard action occur between phases simultaneously, but effects of attack - within phase.
● Pursuers, whose initiative is lower than yours, don't make AoO, if you have taken 5 foot step.
● Those who approach you without spending all his speed, can make AoO if you triggered it.

Wording isn't good but I tell you more and show examples:
1. "All actions within it occur simultaneously." - in 1-st phase PC and NPC makes his action together. So if you want to cast Bull’s Strength on Fighter and he wants to jump in battle, Fighter should wait for you casting a spell and then (in 2-nd phase) charge.
2. "Phase includes part of full action (standard and the rest)." - usually any full-round action can be divided at standard action and the rest. Due to that full-round action can be interrupted. Examples: Full attack is a 1 attack and all others attacks; Spring Attack is a charge (without bonus or penalty) and movement; Whirlwind Attack is attack of one-half of enemies and attack of others; Coup de Grace is a Regular Attack and critical hit.
3. "flat-footed are those whose initiative is lower than yours" - if you hit someone in first combat round DM should compare your and enemy initiative modificator. Enemy is flat-footed to you only if his initiative is lower than yours.
4. "Players determine PC intentions and Master - NPCs." - Despite that Players can quickly change his action in SECOND phase.
5. "Effects of standard action occur between phases simultaneously" - hit-points changes and effects of spells starts on creature together relying on condition that it had in last phase. Example 1: two clerics cast "Doom" and "Hold person" on orc. All these spell start working together, not one-by-one, so "Doom" and "Hold person" uses normal stat for orc's Will save. Example 2: cleric start casting "Heal light wounds" on mage (+7 or +9 hp). Mage with 2 of 4 hp stands in full defense. Orc hit (12 damage) a mage in 1-st phase. Mage fall on ground with -1 or stands with 1 hp in result.
6. "but effects of attack - within phase" - most controversial but elegant element. In all 20 levels of game wizard can cast only 1 spell per round (two with swift spell), but fighter can make several attack with advancement and AoO. So attack is a much quicker than casting and also it is not require concentration. Any non-quick spell of careless mage should have huge chance to be disrupted. It's what we see in movies, books and games. Example: mage casting "Scare" on adjacent ocr. Orc making a regular attack and AoO forcing mage roll Concentration check twice.
7. "don't make AoO, if you have taken 5 foot step."- it makes initiative still useful and helpful in SCS. It just transfers benefits of initiative from original system to SCS. Example 1: mage with high initiative fighting melee with fighter. Mage take a 5 foot step out of enemy to cast a spell. Fighter take a 5 foot step too. This little delay forces fighter to spend his time on movement which helps proactive mage to start concentrating on casting a spell without provoking AoO. But then Fighter makes his regular attacks. If he hit mage makes Concentration checks as much as needs. If there was a ranger instead of mage and he wants to pick up an item, he do this as usual. Example 2: Troll engaged in combat with fighter and wizard, whose are adjacent to him both. If wizard take a 5 foot step and cast a spell, he will provoke AoO form troll cause of his reach. Otherwise if troll set a wizard as a main danger and don't want to let him leave his reach, he will take a 5 foot step with the wizard, but he don't be able to make an AoO in case if the wizard have a higher initiative. But wizard still will be suffer cause of regular troll's attack.
8. "without spending all his speed, can make AoO in this phase"- usually it happens in 2-nd phase when evil mage trying to cast a spell and PC had spent his attack in 1-st phase. It can happen in 1st phase when PC approach (not all speed) to foe which adjacent to mage or moving near casting mage.

Solving movement towards each other or at one point:
All creatures moves equally but faster one get a vantage on destination square.
If some speed exceed other speed in times - it passes that number of squares per 1 square of slower creature.

I tested it in my 30+ games and it's really speeds up combat and make it more bright and cinematic.
Players are satisfied with lightness, wizards have learned how take care of themselves.
Fight now looks like 2-sided vivid confrontation. And remind me old games: Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate

p.s. English is not my native language