Best Class For Mind Control [D&D 3.5]

[Tichrondrius]

Hey there Playground, I'm just wondering what would be the best class to center totally around Mind Control? Not illusions, per say, because Beguiler would obviously be best for that, but pure Mind Control. Forcing people to convert to your side, changing alignments, implanting memories, changing peoples minds the hard way.

I know the answer will probably be Wizard or Cleric 20 but I hoped there was a more exotic or unique class that still manages to be good while focusing on Dominating the opposition.

Thanks Playground. :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

A Psion (Telepath) sounds like an obvious choice.

[Incanur]

I doubt anything beats mindrape (BoVD) at level 17. Earlier than that, maybe style of telepath (thrallherd, maybe?).

[Tichrondrius]

Well, not Psionics exactly. But I'll keep it in mind in case they're allowed. I don't even have the book on Psionics. Thanks anyway, I should have remember those and specified. :smallredface:

But I may end up using it anyway. I just want more options. XD

[HunterOfJello]

Telepath Psion or Erudite going into Thrallherd


Thrallherd are masters of dominating the minds of others and forcing them to submit to their will. They get a Thrall (Improved Cohort) at first level, 8/10 manifesting progression and another thrall at 10th level. As they progress in levels they also get reduced costs for using Psionic Charm, Psionic Dominate, Greater Dominate and Superior Dominate. By the time they have 10 levels in the class they can use those powers a ridiculous number of times per day.

The only downside of the class is that many people consider them to be too powerful.

*edit*

No psionics? You need to go buy the Expanded Psionics Handbook on ebay. I'm willing to bet that it's exactly what you're looking for. Heck, the information for the class is all in the SRD except for some of the tables.

[Incanur]

Yes, the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicRacesClassesSkillsSpells.htm) gives you all the information you need to play a telepath.

[Tichrondrius]

Yeah I'm looking at Thrallherd on the SDR and it seems to be exactly up my ally. It's like they took Mindbender and made it so so much better. Thanks a lot guys.

Just in case Thrallherd or Psionics isn't allowed in a game, what are some other choices?

[HunterOfJello]

Yeah I'm looking at Thrallherd on the SDR and it seems to be exactly up my ally. It's like they took Mindbender and made it so so much better. Thanks a lot guys.

Just in case Thrallherd or Psionics isn't allowed in a game, what are some other choices?

Well, what is allowed in this game? It would be helpful to know that before suggesting alternatives from splat books.

[randomhero00]

Yeah I'm looking at Thrallherd on the SDR and it seems to be exactly up my ally. It's like they took Mindbender and made it so so much better. Thanks a lot guys.

Just in case Thrallherd or Psionics isn't allowed in a game, what are some other choices?

Um wizard basically. Or beguiler if you want some melee.

[Tichrondrius]

Oh, there aren't any official rules yet for the game, but it's an evil game and I just thought "Mind Control!" and figured I'd get some suggestions.

What's the easiest way to get mindrape (BoVD), just Wizard? Well, is it arcane or divine?

I guess Psion into Thrallherd is the best way to go so I'll try that. Thanks y'all.

[Psyren]

Psions are great at mind control for several reasons:

1) No components - All a psion has to do is suppress the display and he can enslave you best friend (or the captain of the guar in front of your face, without moving a muscle or saying a word to clue you in that something happened. Even better, he can do it from hiding, while disguised, while shapeshifted into a sandwich tiara on the princess' forehead etc.

2) Modality - the same power doubles as Charm Person and Charm Monster, or Dominate Person/Dominate Monster, and their mass versions, with the Psion in full control of how expensive he needs it to be for a given situation. This goes a long way toward countering the uselessness of mind-affecting powers as one gains levels.

3) Telepathy ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a), nuff said.

[Person_Man]

Binder could work.

Naberius vestige can spam Disguise Self and Command, and large bonuses to Diplomacy and Bluff, with the ability to use rushed Diplomacy very effectively.
Astaroth vestige can spam Suggestion, and grants bonuses to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate.
Balam vestige can reroll any die, including Skill checks.
Dantalion can spam Read Thoughts and can "Awe" enemies, preventing them from attacking you. Scion of Dantalion PrC improves this vestige dramatically.
Haures vestige can spam Major Image and Phantasmal Killer, plus he gets Incorporeal Movement and continuous Mind Blank, which is the ultimate defense against your DM using mind control against you as retribution.
enemies from attacking you
Focalor, Chupoclops, and Vanus each have debuff auras, improving your Save DCs on any of the above.
Zceryll vestige can spam Summon Monster as if you were a Sorcerer of your Binder level. Since summoned creatures have tons of spells, so do you.


Any of the spam options above can only be used once every 5 rounds, which can be reduced down to once every 4 with Knight of the Sacred Seal PrC. But unlike casters or psionics, you never run out of resources. If you're wedded to certain spells, you could go into Anima Mage, a duel progresses Binder/Arcane Caster PrC with easy entry requirements.

A Binder mind controller would focus mostly on Skills mixed in with mind reading and Suggestion. This is more cumbersome then just Dominating your foes, since you actually have to roleplay everything out. But in a way it's more powerful, since Diplomacy and Bluff don't have durations and can't be stopped by immunities.

I could put a similar build together for the Incarnate - Charming Veil for Read Thoughts, Silvertongue Mask for Suggestion, Bluff, and Diplomacy, Mage's Spectacles for UMD. It wouldn't be as strong as any of the suggested options, but it would still work.

[The Glyphstone]

Telepath Psion or Erudite going into Thrallherd


Thrallherd are masters of dominating the minds of others and forcing them to submit to their will. They get a Thrall (Improved Cohort) at first level, 8/10 manifesting progression and another thrall at 10th level. As they progress in levels they also get reduced costs for using Psionic Charm, Psionic Dominate, Greater Dominate and Superior Dominate. By the time they have 10 levels in the class they can use those powers a ridiculous number of times per day.

The only downside of the class is that many people consider them to be too powerful.


what's this about 'consider'? It's a class with Leadership+ as a class feature, of course it's too powerful. Crazy fun though, especially if you play an Evil thrallherd.

[Thurbane]

For a non-psionic option, Beguiler with a dip in Minbender isn't too bad. Gets a lot of mind-control spells, can add more through Advanced Learning, and gets a bunch of other spells to boot. Also gets good amount of skills from a great list, including all of the social skills...so you can make an awesome diplomancer.

[Ernir]

1) No components - All a psion has to do is suppress the display and he can enslave you best friend (or the captain of the guar in front of your face, without moving a muscle or saying a word to clue you in that something happened.

It having no components is useful, but I wouldn't count on being able to spam it. A creature that successfully saves against a power that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#succeedingonaSavingThrow )

[Psyren]

It having no components is useful, but I wouldn't count on being able to spam it. A creature that successfully saves against a power that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#succeedingonaSavingThrow )

That's for the target, but I wasn't referring to him - I was referring to casting in front of bystanders, e.g. having the king halt your impending execution while you're gagged and bound in front of the headsman.

An arcanist can do this too, by blowing two metamagic feats, or with a 1/encounter skill trick - a Telepath can do it all the time.

[Jallorn]

I would recommend the Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b) if you want a psion with Mindrape. :smallcool:

Yeah, the Erudite is basically a Psion, with the spontaneity of a Sorcerer, and the versatility of a Wizard only better.

[Keld Denar]

Evangalist? Its in Complete Divine. Its a pretty rediculous class. You can force someone to change alignment with a skill check. Just tack some levels of it on a typical Fred the Diplomancer build (1/2 Elf Bard + Warlock + Binder + Marshal + Exemplar). Skill checks are rediculously easy to boost. You could easily have a +50 check by ECL6 when you start taking levels of Evangelist.

No save, just auto-convert to your alignment. Paladins fall, everyone dies.

[Maho-Tsukai]

If you like dominating but fear Psionics won't be allowed then an Enchantment focused wizard or Cleric would work. Speaking of Clerics and mind control if you don't mind having to raise a baby dragon and taking a few dragon-themed feats the the Dracolyte PrC may be a good idea. As of RAW it's the only way to get the Domination Prestige domain which gives you Spell Focus: Enchantment as a bonus feat and some VERY good Mind Control spells that are exclusive to that domain's spell list. Namely True Dominate and Monstrous Thrall. True Dominate is basically a stronger version of Dominate Person and Monstrous thrall allows you to make somebody your mind slave permanently. However, being domain spells they can only be prepared in domain spell slots(what a pitty). However, if your DM allows REASONABLE cheese then technically an Archivists can learn both True Dominate and Monstrous thrall via scrolls(Domain spells are "divine" spells after all.) but many GMs see using archivists in that manner as too cheesy...so you may be out of luck there.

However, you do not need to take the whole Dracolyte class to get the domain so if you don't like the dragon-themed powers and having to be followed around by and protect a baby dragon you can always just take a dip in the class though it would be a costly dip(I believe you may need 2 feats to get in, I have to check but I know for a fact you need at least one feat which is dragonfriend..or whatever that feat is called.)

However, the thrallheard is really best for this type of thing, as stated by others here.

[Fouredged Sword]

Take levels in fiend binder.
Bind a few sucubi to yourself
Use thier at will charm monster to charm everything
Get a fur lined purple cloak of charisma
Get a wizards staff with a large gaudy gem on the top

...

Profit?

Oh, and you have found the one use for the truenameing skill.

[Keld Denar]

Get a fur lined purple cloak of charisma

Krusk called...he wants his pimp cloak back.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/compscoundrel_gallery/102037.jpg

I suggest you give it to him. Now.

[Eldan]

I like the bard's outfit :smalltongue:

[Tichrondrius]

Yeah Beguiler/Mindbender Dip was really my first thought when I made this topic but I wanted to see what you guys had to say. I might still do it that way but Thrallherd looks tasty. So does Erudite for that matter. Might go with a lot of Cleric if Psions aren't allowed.

Evangalist sounds awesome too. I'd have to take a look at it, but it sounds really close to what I wanted to do. Well, basically I want someone who could mindrape everyone into joining his evil religion and have everyone start worshiping his Dark Gods/Him. Which does sound like Thrallherd.

Dracolyte probably wouldn't be a good fit. Maybe I convince the eventual DM to give me the Domination Domain some other way.

Binder.. maybe. The image Fouredged Sword painted is amusing but probably not for this character. :smallwink:

[Nanoblack]

An often overlooked option for enchantment is warlock/mindbender. It, of course, is overlooked for a reason (Not too powerful due to loss of CL), but is insanely fun if put together correctly. I'm currently playing an Unseelie Fey Changeling Warlock/Mindbender in an assassin game... fun ensues.

That being said, if you're looking to amass an army, Thrallherd is your best option.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I have a homebrew class in the works as well, that is a divine caster who basicly crafts their spell list from selectable "spheres"(though there is a lot of limits to it.) It's a cha based caster(A plus for a manipulative type) and one of the spheres happens to focus almost exclusively on mind controling people. In addition, it gets some other nice spells in that sphere such as Modify Memory(great to use on people you dominate whom you don't want comming after you for revenge when the spell ends.), and both the mind switch and true mind switch psionic powers converted to divine spells.

The only issue with the class is it's a WIP, and may not be finished in time for your game.

Here is what is done so far with the class, and also be warned that any powers/pact boons are subject to change until the class is complete..

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9908161#post9908161

I am also planing on giving the mind sphere a Thrallheard-esc leadership type pact boon...so it will be a good class for what you want to do when finished. However, be warned that it's made to be the only fullcaster in it's setting and thus made to excell at one caster function while haveing a small number of tricks(It's ideally a tier 2 since it can break the game if your smart enough.) so some DMs may not like it's spell list which gives them iconic spells usually exclusive to certain classes.(Glibness, Magic Jar ect..)

[classy one]

Just a few more reasons why thrallherd is awesome.
A thrall is not a cohort. It's better.

People focus on thralls but the cheaper charm and dominate is awesome not because you can spam it, but because you can boost them to have obscene DCs and/or apply metapsi feats. If you entered with an ardent 10 with dominant mantle ACF, you could stack chain powers on dominate and take control of 2-3 opponents in the same round rather than one at a time.


Mindrape is a fine spell to control others but it's vile and you have no idea how the DM will have that memory affect the target. Did you see Inception? Did you see all the work that went into placing one simple idea? No a far better solution is simply have your target become you.

Enter Mind Seed. Another psionic power that plants your personality and memories into your target, effectively turning them into you.

True mind switch is a fun one as well especially when you use it on a big dumb fighter with great physical stats (like an archer build). Not so much mind control but you are controlling someone else's body (now yours).

Hopefully you have noticed all these are telepathic powers. Although thrallherd gives you charm and dominate.

[WeLoveFireballs]

RP wise a scorcerer would be good since charisma goes hand in hand with persuasion, intimidation and domination. Throw in Bestow Curse and Crushing Dispair to turn their will saves into putty.

[Fouredged Sword]

Any spellcaster who can take the necrotic cyst feat gains the powerful necrotic domination (I think I am getting the name right). Once you cyst someone you may control them easily. Just sudden quicken, still and scilent the spell so nobody knows you cast it.